Abuse of cafe classifieds

[Crowder]

I've noticed what I consider to be an abuse of the classifieds here, and it's something I would like to see discussed if that's appropriate.

It seems as if some sellers are very quick to delete and relist an instrument after their ad falls off the first page. If you watch the ads closely it's easy to see the same ads come up over and over again, with little if any change in the price or description of the instrument. This is selfish, and it's a problem that feeds on itself. The more people that are doing it, the faster the ads roll off and the more it happens.

I think the mods here are very generous to provide a forum for trading instruments that is considered to be safer than ebay, not to mention a whole lot cheaper. The practice described above is a way of taking advantage of their goodwill.

Am I alone on this?

[DryBones]

on the plus side I just sold a mando off page 4 or 5! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[bradeinhorn]

i agree this should be watched - unless the price is reduced which is often the case.

[mythicfish]

They are the same people who replace the toilet paper with the feed off the top instead of the bottom ... where it belongs. I hate it when that happens.

Curt

[cooper4205]

i'm sure some are relisting to keep their adds at the top of the page, but sometimes people forget to renew the add.

its happened to me twice before, i re-listed the add the first time it happened, but have yet to put the add back up from the most recent time.

[mandolooter]

There are existing guidelines and they are monitored by Scott. A few may slip thru the cracks but not many.

[groveland]

The rule is renew - Never delete and resubmit.

If you are selling a product rather than a single item, in a short time your product will go to the back page and stay there. If that's the case, perhaps the classifieds are not a suitable outlet for your product. Never delete and resubmit to reposition your ad (known as "bumping").

The classifieds are a free service. The rules are posted (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?print_guidelines_page_button=on). We are obliged to show some respect.

[Walter Newton]

I doubt the effectiveness too, I think most serious buyers will either wade through the few pages or do a search for a specific brand etc. to find what they're looking for...I just sold one last week from the "back page".

[Pete Braccio]

I will resubmit if I modify the ad in a substantial way. As an example, I resubmitted two ads recently. The first was for an Eastman that I had originally asked for a trade and it was resubmitted as a for sale. The second (which I admit is on the borderline) was an anything goes trade for a book to a much more narrow focus for a trade.

Usually, I'll just let the ad expire after 21 days and relist the items in a month or two.

Pete

[steve V. johnson]

FWIW, the few items I have listed in the Cafe classifieds have gotten the most interest after the tenth or twelfth day, some even after the 21 day expiration. #Folks must have saved some record of the page, somehow, and referred to it later. # I guess...

I haven't noticed the repetitve bumps, and I look at the classified way too often. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

stv

[Charles Johnson]

"The rule is renew - Never delete and resubmit."

Groveland, I have to disagree, thats not what the rule says. Here it is (directly from your link):

"Unless your product is successfully sold or traded, you should allow the ad to auto-expire at the end of 21 days (the minimum ad length) or more before resubmitting. The practice of "bumping" an ad to the top by deleting and resubmitting it is not permitted."

Looks like you are actually supposed to resubmit it. If you resubmit it, its going to go back to the top.

If you renew it, which is easier because you do not have to fill out the form again, it does in fact get pushed further back. However, renewal does not appear to be a requirement.

Best regards,
Charles

PS: I can vouch that Scott monitors the ads. I've been called down a few times myself...

[mythicfish]

To paraphrase Mayor Daley, "Post early, post often."

Curt

[danmills]

I don't perceive there to be a problem. The minimum expiration time on a classified listing is 21 days. One is allowed to renew any time, but if you want another crack at page one, then you have to wait at least 21 days for your ad to expire, and then endure the minor hassle of resubmitting. This seems like a reasonable compromise to me. It allows the seller another crack at front page exposure, but it limits the frequency of that exposure so that new ads can have their "day in the sun" as well. Whether that front page exposure is of any significant value will always be subject to debate.

Cheers,
Dan

[Scott Tichenor]

Yes, people bump ads on occasion in spite of clearly posted guidelines, but it's largely an act of self-gratification or simple carelessness to engage in the practice. Sometimes I catch them, sometimes I don't. Any benefit of this practice is imagined. I've posted before that a consistent 55-60% of all replies come from ads not on the first page. Plus, to me it's a signal you're dealing with someone a bit too anxious about money if they engage in this often. Imagine how patient your seller is going to be in case you wish to return your purchase.

[groveland]

"Unless your product is successfully sold or traded, you should allow the ad to auto-expire at the end of 21 days (the minimum ad length) or more before resubmitting. The practice of "bumping" an ad to the top by deleting and resubmitting it is not permitted."

I'm sorry - I should have said, "The rule is renew - Never delete and resubmit BEFORE THE 21 DAY EXPIRATION."

I used to do a delete/resubmit when the expiration email arrived, approximately 7 days before expiration, about every 14 days. That was not the proper procedure.

[Mark Walker]

Scott - I don't see anything inappropriate in bringing this discussion up at all. #(It IS your site!)

While there may be a few members who - intentionally or otherwise - 'bump' an ad up to the top, I don't pay much attention to it. #I tend to agree with several others who have made the point that we'll scroll through however many pages of classifieds there are to find whatever it is we're hoping to find. #

Given the fact you've got nearly 10,000 members now - not counting guests - I'd say by and large the community is pretty good at self-policing, and of course you (rightfully so) send us reminders when appropriate and/or necessary as well. #

There will always be a few malcontents in a group this large, but overall I'd say we're 'cool' and you're doing a great job providing a great service!

[groveland]

ClosetMandolinPlayer -

Count me in the ranks of satisfied cafe participants. It's not easy running one of these boards.

[Ted Eschliman]

Any benefit of this practice is imagined. I've posted before that a consistent 55-60% of all replies come from ads not on the first page. Plus, to me it's a signal you're dealing with someone a bit too anxious about money if they engage in this often. Imagine how patient your seller is going to be in case you wish to return your purchase.
Bingo, Scott!

The other issue is whenever I've posted something new and it's at the front of the list, the majority of email inquiries have nothing to do with the sale. I get the "why are you selling this?" or "what can you tell me about this vs. brand x that I'm already going to buy or aleady own?" instead of folks serious about slapping leather with intent to purchase. The degree of seriousness is far higher when an ad has been circulating already and "mulling" has run its course.

What amazes me is how many inquiries I'll get weeks AFTER I've removed an ad. People aren't as gullible to the first page placement as one might think!

[bikebum]

If I'm just browsing the ads to find that 'something' I just can't do without, I usually start at the end of the list and work forward. When the ad for that 'item' expires, it might not be relisted. I don't want to miss it.

Jerry

[wsm]

The answer to the problem is to send the new ads to the end of the list. You have to wait 21 days for your ad to hit the front page.

[danb]

Given the fact you've got nearly 10,000 members now - not counting guests - I'd say by and large the community is pretty good at self-policing, and of course you (rightfully so) send us reminders when appropriate and/or necessary as well.
Ah, most of the policing is not done by the members themselves though, nor is it done in public. Scott puts in a lot of time dealing with scammers. The fact that it runs smoothly without any obvious glaring problems with scammers and so forth is actually not evidence that the community has no bad apples, it's more evidence that the farmer is getting rid of them before they make it to market http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I bet nobody is aware of this stuff really, but Scott is always keeping an eye on the log files for patterns that indicate email scammers (often the Nigerian scams!). Suffice it to say that Scott has probably personally accounted for 100 closed email scammer accounts on yahoo, hotmail and the like!

We keep a pretty close eye on known "bad apples" too, so we can warn folks if any contacts from said apples are logged. Various folks who proved bad sellers or bad customers have been locked out of doing business on cafe listings, all in an effort to keep it running smoothly.

At the end of the day it's down to "Best efforts" too, it's impossible to catch all the problems, and sellers & buyers are running at their own risk of course. Always check up on your customers or sellers, it's a rough world out there.

All that aside, the other comments on here are right on the money. The stuff I've sold here has never been on the front page of the classifieds when it sold. I think folks will only go crazy about buying something instantly if it's very rare, or far underpriced. The rest of the time, things do really seem to take a week or so before they will sell!

[Mark Walker]

Dan - I humbly stand corrected! Excellent point, well-conveyed (and well-taken), and thanks for your spot-on input. #

I didn't mean to suggest we - as members - truly 'police' ourselves and get on each other for infractions (though there is a bit of that encountered from time to time); more accurately what I meant to say (and should have) is the vast majority of the Cafe' members possess proper moral and ethical fiber and would not intentionally do improper things relating to posts, classifieds, etc.

I've traded a few PM's with you and Scott both, and I 110% agree with you that Scott (and other Super Administrators - yourself included of course) do a phenomenal job overseeing every aspect of this site - much or most of it 'behind the scenes.'

Thanks again to Scott, yourself, and all the others who strive to keep it such a quality experience! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

- Mark