Hard to fret?

[old coot]

I've been playing guitar/bass for 25 years or so. Last week bought a mandolin w/out every playing one before.

I'm having a blast with it just playing some scales and chords, getting used to the layout until my tune books show up.

My Eastman 504 seems to be well setup - the action looks to be very low all up the neck, however I have to fret pretty hard to get the notes to ring out well, especially E string 1st fret. The strings may be medium gauge, they seem very taut.

I'm playing scales with thumb behind center of neck. On guitar I mostly do more of a neck in palm and sometimes wrap the thumb over to grab the low E string, but also do the thumb behind the neck for some scaler passages and fingerstyle tunes.

I'm just curious if this is normal? Will I eventually get used to this or do I need to adjust my technique/setup?

I've had some playing related injuy in the past and I've learned to play with a light touch on the guitar, so this is huge concern.

Finally, thanks for having me in your community. I've been lurking here a bit and have found this an excellent resource with great people.

Old Coot http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[dj coffey]

I have a weber and I thought I had my action down as low as it could go (the screws were practically falling out of the Brekke bridge - well not really). Took it into a luthier for another issue and he suggested he could file down the string slots in the nut to make those first frets even easier to play. Haven't done it yet, but I think I will.

I'm also considering taking up the "thumb behind the neck" position as, after a year of playing, over the past few weeks I seem to be developing some discomfort with my thumb, where the the thumb joint with the palm comes into contact with the neck.

[JeffD]

Could it be that it just feels harder because you are not calloused for double strings yet?

I had trouble the other way, playing around with a four string electric mandolin and it hurt like the dickens - but the action was a little lower than my accoustic - just the single string was able to dig into a different - unprepared, part of my finger tip.

Just a thought.

[old coot]

Could it be that it just feels harder because you are not calloused for double strings yet?

Nope, the finger tips are in good shape. I just feels like I'm really having to press down (squeeze) really hard on the strings.


Took it into a luthier for another issue and he suggested he could file down the string slots in the nut to make those first frets even easier to play.

That's interesting. I really couldn't imagine the action being lower, but maybe someone should look at it!?

[Jonathan Peck]

Hey OC,

I would take it in and have it looked at. I played on my first mandolin (Weber Gallatin) for two months before I took it in for a set-up. It played well, the action was low and there were no buzzing strings...except, I would stop playing and I would get shooting pains in the nerve endings of my fingertips. I had callouses from playing guitar, but after awhile I had to shut it down because of fatigue in my fretting hand.

I took it in and the luthier adjusted the truss rod, and then took the nut off, shaved it down and glued it back on. He moved the bridge and set the height. I was amazed at how much better and easier it played...especialy at the first fret. No more pains or fatigue

[Jim M.]

Mando definitely requires a stronger grip than guitar. If a set-up doesn't do it for you on the Eastman, you may want to think of getting a mando designed for light-gauge strings. The Phoenix Neo-Classical is a great one with light gauge but it costs a lot more than an Eastman. There are many flat-tops, though, that sound great with light gauge and cost the same or less than an Eastman. You could try light gauge on the Eastman, but the ones I've played seem to be designed for at least medium gauge.

[DryBones]

get a setup. my Eastman 505 was hard to fret the E and A at the first fret and they lowered the slots a bit and it play like butter now! Mine is now setup at .43mm at the nut and 1.59mm at the 12th fret. YMMV
BTW, do these numbers sound normal to you guys?

[Any Day Now]

you can still use a light touch, the trick to the upper frets is too place your finger a little too far behind the fret and roll it forward into the sweet spot. Your fret hand should look the same as the hand of a violin player, I only switch to a guitar style for serious bar chords.

[Peter Hackman]

Could it be that it just feels harder because you are not calloused for double strings yet?

Nope, the finger tips are in good shape. I just feels like I'm really having to press down (squeeze) really hard on the strings.


Took it into a luthier for another issue and he suggested he could file down the string slots in the nut to make those first frets even easier to play.

That's interesting. I really couldn't imagine the action being lower, but maybe someone should look at it!?
The difference between a properly cut nut and a poorly cut one is
important, especially when playing in flatted keys. On my Flatiron
I have trouble with #the first fret - if I try to fret at the 6th
simultaneously,
my index finger #slides out of position.

My Collings is the first mando I've owned where the nut was cut properly.
But one really shouldn't have to pay $7,000 for that detail!

[barricwiley]

Speaking of having a good setup and how much it helps I am not able to find a local that I could have do the work. I live in Northern Va - anyone know of a Luthier in my area to take my instruments to?
Thanks, Richard

[MandoSquirrel]

If the DC area isn't too far out of your way, I can highly recommend Appalachian Bluegrass, in Catonsville, MD.

[fatt-dad]

The thumb on the center of the back of the neck just doesn't make sense for the mandolin. When I play, I'm not even sure I'm in contact with the center of the neck. Rather it's the pad of my index finger (at the palm) that's acting on the treble side of the neck just off the centerline. I can't speak for others, but if I'm properly describing what I do, it is common by others (I know there are exceptions).

Try a different grip on the neck, it may make a difference!

f-d

[August Watters]

What fatt-dad said.

It's the "violin grip." Let the neck fall partway down between your thumb and forefinger (not all the way down). Position depends on shape of your hand and mando neck, but most of the time this allows for much less tension in your hand. I use the thumb on back of the neck as a rare exception, but think it's best to default to violin grip whenever possible.

August W

heres my two cents....
press down with the very very tips of your fingers... only!!!!
you can move your thumb around... i have big hands, i keep my thumb on the top half most of the time..... i also do what fatt- dad described sometimes, not all the time! just make sure that your thumb stays on the neck.
also press down the string till it touches the fret... start by just laying your finger on it... pluck and gently press in till you hear the tone... you can keep pressing after (but shouldnt) that, it wont stop you because the frets are close together the string stays further from the fret board... you may be pressing harder than you need is what im saying....

[barricwiley]

Thanks MandoSquirrel,
Richard

[Phil Goodson]

You might also consider the string gauges. Many people use 12s (0.012" E string), but they come in 11s and 10s, etc.

The mandolin itself demands a certain gauge range to get the top resonating, but sometimes you get a lot more sound than you might think even from a lighter gauge.

To me, the difference in feel between 12s and 11s is significant. (I've even, on occasion, used 10s.)
If you're using 12s, try 11s and see if the feel and the sound suit you as well or better.

Luck,
Phil

[PseudoCelt]

Make sure the ends of your fingers are perpendicular to the fretboard, so you are pressing straight down onto the string with just the tip of your finger. This should make it easier to fret cleanly and takes much less effort, so your hand shouldn't get as tired.

Patrick

[Ken Sager]

What fatt-dad said.

It's the "violin grip." Let the neck fall partway down between your thumb and forefinger (not all the way down). Position depends on shape of your hand and mando neck, but most of the time this allows for much less tension in your hand. I use the thumb on back of the neck as a rare exception, but think it's best to default to violin grip whenever possible.

August W
What fatt-dad and August said.

Thumb behind the neck isn't right for mandolin. It squares the hand too much against the fingerboard when you need to be able to reach, not spread, the fingers. Plus, the leverage is better.

This is the best image I could find with a 60 second search:

[DryBones]

Is that a G chord? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

BTW, Appalachian Bluegrass did my 505 setup. Nice folks to deal with. I am using J75's with an .040 G string for now. The E is 11.5 and the A 16.

[old coot]

Ya'll are the best. Thanks so much for the great info!

I got my Norman Blake dvd last night and the 'violin grip' is very well represented. The switch was easy, as this is how I generally hold the guitar neck - I think, at first, the notes were easier to fret the other way but now I seem to be getting on just fine.

Even if I never learn any of the tunes on that dvd (which I will), it is a pleasure just to watch, hear the tunes, and listen to him talk - one cool ol' cat! Nancy's awsome too!