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vkioulaphides
May-08-2004, 4:22pm
As promised, here are some images of my two Greek baglamades that reside with me on this side of the Atlantic:

vkioulaphides
May-08-2004, 4:25pm
The smaller one is a one-of-a-kind creation of Sotirios Bras, an old family friend and neighbor; the larger one is a generic instrument, bought in the old city of Athens (Plaka) on the spur of the moment.

Now for the bowls (one carved out of one, single piece of walnut, the other in alternating staves of maple and rosewood):

vkioulaphides
May-08-2004, 4:29pm
Close-ups of the bowls:

vkioulaphides
May-08-2004, 4:32pm
Close-ups of the front: (The larger instrument has a Woodpicker® contact transducer attached, as I use it for all those noisy gigs, backing up dancers— and struggling to be heard over dumbeqs, riqs, tambourines, hand-cymbals, etc.)

vkioulaphides
May-08-2004, 4:48pm
And, for a bit of narrative:

The smaller baglama has a 14.5 in. scale; the larger one, 15.5 The application of the Turkish name baglama, i.e. a string instrument with bound (that is, movable) frets is, of course, a misnomer. This instrument has always had fixed, metal frets. Nor does it exist anywhere but Greece, where —in an almost Darwinian fashion— it grew smaller, thinner, lighter, cheaper, in order to avoid the persecution by the authorities, while fitting into the meager means of the semi-criminal, urban underclasses, whose voice it championed and whose songs it accompanied.

The mis-applied name "baglama" became current in the 1920's, with the 1.5 million Greek refugees from Asia Minor gathering in Pireus, Athens, and Thessaloniki. (Besides, the Turkish baglama is about 4 ft. long, twice the size of these creatures.) Earlier on, this instrument (or its next-of-kin) would have been called a tamboura throughout Greece.

Back in the '20's, there were numerous tunings for these: DAD, GDA, AEA, DAE, GAE, etc., etc. The present standard is DAD, one full octave above the (3-course) bouzouki, with octave course in the bottom, unison courses in the middle and top.

I personally like to stick with the most usual, traditional bouzouk-tuning, fifth + fourth. So, I keep the smaller baglama to DAD for all my solo playing, or when no singers are involved. On the other hand, when accompanying women's voices, I switch to the larger one, which I tune to AEA, kind of like an "alto baglama". Same fingering patterns, of course, but in transposition.

I use super-light, silver-wound strings on these; obviously, for the "alto", a bit heavier than on the other one. Terrific fun to play!

Bob A
May-09-2004, 1:13pm
Nifty instruments, Victor. I am especially charmed by the walnut one: it seems to my untutored eye to have more or less the essence of what I'd expect a baglama to be. The bowl, scooped out of a block of walnut, is way cool.

Do you notice a significant tonal difference between the two?

vkioulaphides
May-09-2004, 3:04pm
Thank you, Bob.

[QUOTE]"the walnut one... seems... to have more or less the essence of what I'd expect a baglama to be."

Your eye is far sharper than you give it credit for. Yes, the carved baglama is THE baglama, as far as I am concerned. In fact, if I were a real organologist (like, for example, our Alex T.), I would insist that this instrument alone be called the Greek baglama, while the mandolin-esque, staved-bowl instrument be called the bouzoukaki, i.e. the "little bouzouki". Both terms are used in Greece but, naturally though unfortunately, used indiscriminately.

The carved-bowl baglama is (obviously) as compact and solid as an instrument can get; its tone has that characteristic, full-blooded rebetiko sound that I associate with the pre-WWII repertoire. For as enthusiastic a fan of the mandolin as I am, I still feel that the deeper, rounder, thinner, staved bowl of the bouzoukaki (to stick with my arbitrary nomenclature) lends the instrument an Italianate bel canto sweetness that is entirely foreign to it— and to the rough, gruff, and often desperate emotional character of the repertoire.

The carved instrument has the tone old rebetes would call —sometimes pejoratively— "dringhi-dringhi": a little shrill, a little twangy, a little nasal. Hey, "scat-singing" is not exactly a compliment, either... Still, that tone IS the rebetiko.

With the gentrification of the rebetiko (and the attendant profit margins), luthiers have been building jewel-box-like baglamades, using exotic woods, seashell inlays, intricate marquetry, semiprecious stones as fingerboard markers... I somehow fail to see the point. And, if carved is best, I think native, European walnut is as good as it gets. It certainly beats the gourds, flasks, (whole) tortoiseshells and army-issue tin cans that the earliest Greek baglamades were built around.

mrmando
May-10-2004, 1:08pm
What rebetika recordings would you recommend that are available stateside?

I am going to Athens for the Olympics and may try to sample some local tunes...

vkioulaphides
May-10-2004, 1:20pm
Any recording of Markos Vamvakaris would be most authentic; any of the recordings of Vassilis Tsitsanis would be fine examples of the immediately post-rebetiko era, BUT: still prior to the gross commercialization of the genre that you get from 99% of later recordings.

Christos Papaioannou is Tsitsanis' only peer in age and caliber of artistry; I recommend his recordings with equal enthusiasm. Embittered with the politics of music in Greece, he fled to the U.S., where he withered away in nostalgia and an almost suicidal abuse of his health; he got killed in a car accident, most probably under the influence. His soul-brother Tsitsanis was disconsolate...

A modern group, called Athenian Compania, has a rather "neoclassical" approach, doing rebetika in authentic style and instrumentation: first and second bouzouki, baglama, and guitar (plus, of course, vocals). They do rebetika the way e.g. Wynton Marsalis does New Orleans jazz. Good stuff.

Among singers, Sotiria Belou (harsh, almost raspy voice but with TONS of emotion), Marika Ninou (the "nightingale of Athens"), plus all the bouzouki-players of that era who, with or without a "singing" voice, did sing— no vocal technique, that is, but what feeling!

Enjoy your visit to my birthplace!

jeffshuniak
May-11-2004, 9:04am
nice vic, I hate to talk with no money.... but my curiousity leads me into this.

of course I like this carved bowl... what are the odds of scoring one in greece WITH the symetric, sinister ready pickguard? seems really picky.... maybe I'll have to barf up another $1000 bucks. actually I have to practically starve myself, so there wont be much barf.

vkioulaphides
May-12-2004, 6:26am
Well, Jeff, no such drastic body functions may be needed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Curiously enough, carved baglamades are held in low esteem, while staved-bowl ones are generally considered "higher-end"—#a classic case of the public impression inverting the order of things.

A cheap (and I mean cheap) carved baglama would hardly cost you $100. But, of course, it would be an increment of excrement, if I may put it thus. I, for one, considering you a friend, would never recommend that you blow a good hundred greenbacks on an instrument that should best have its soundboard crushed in, machinery removed, and utilized as a ladle of sorts— an expensive kitchen-utensil by any standard.

On the other end, I don't see why one would spend a fortune to have a baglama carved out of some fancy wood from Madagascar or Zimbabwe. What would be the point? Did any rebetes ever even know of such materials? So, no, native European walnut is best, at least in my book.

Many (most?) pickguards ARE in fact symmetrical, Jeff; I don't see that as a problem. Or, you can ask a luthier for one. While (as you know) I am no dealer of instruments, I would say that a $100-baglama is a waste of, well, $100 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif On the other hand, your suggested $1,000 would get you "luxury", i.e. a high-end, STAVE-bowl baglama— no carved instrument costs that much. In my non-dealer view of the matter, you should be able to get the best there is for +/- $300...IF, that is, you know where to look.

All that by way of "guesstimation"...

jeffshuniak
May-12-2004, 8:59am
I dont know where to look...are you still planning a trip to athens in the fall? my dad is going to chois in august.. but that doesnt do much good, eh? #I dont know if he plans to travel around or just visit and go. # if you are going soon after I can wait for you, which maybe I would prefer , for quality sakes, even though my dad would probably just buy one for me if he found one where ever he goes.

any names, locations? (builders or sellers, decent only)

vkioulaphides
May-12-2004, 9:23am
Well, anyone building bouzoukis (and there are many) would also build baglamades. Let's talk... in the meanwhile, do look up the ones who do have websites.

And yes, I am in fact going back to Athens in the Fall. Considering how tiny these things are, I would have no problem bringing one for you. The tricky thing, of course, is choosing just the right one, or making all the requisite contacts in advance. You know, very little time on those weekend escapades...

vkioulaphides
May-12-2004, 10:28am
... for example, Jeff, Christos Spourdalakis is considered the consummate master among bouzouki-builders; his customers speak of playing his bouzoukis as "a religious experience". This, of course, as second-hand information.

Look at his baglama: http://www.music-instruments.gr/en/frameset.html

No pickguard, no problem. The instrument altogether is a gem, too; I fear, however, that, being a one-man shop, the Spourdalakis atelier is rather *ouch!* pricey in its wares. I don't know for sure... contact him and find out, if you wish.

Bob A
May-14-2004, 8:00pm
Well, Victor, having successfully chased down an old bag(lama) on ebay, I'd be interested in tuning(s), and typical string thicknesses. Should we assume the strings are all in unison, or is/are there octave courses? This is pretty much terra incognita for me.

Thanks.

vkioulaphides
May-15-2004, 11:14am
Bob, the baglama strings I just sent you (and which should arrive in your mailbox shortly) tell the entire story: The lowest course is in octaves, the rest in unison, thus: Dd-aa-dd.

I believe the "d" is simply an 0.009 mandolin "e"; tuning it down a whole-step, while at the same time stretching it over the baglama' s slightly longer scale (than the mandolin's) cancel each other out. The low D could be a (light) mandolin D; start with what I sent you and experiment beyond that in due time.

Happy pickings! (... and please let us all know how this comes along)

Alekos
May-15-2004, 11:51am
What a beaty http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ! The wallnut one looks great; I envy you Victor! What to say more ? Just "Kales pennies", (ie. Good picking)

vkioulaphides
May-18-2004, 7:27am
Jeff, would you care to report on your contact with Mr. Spourdalakis?

And Bob, your report on the arrival of the baglama, the re-stringing, etc...? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Vicarious joy IS, of course, quite real!

Bob A
May-18-2004, 10:41am
Alas, Victor, at this writing no baglama, no strings . . . I hold out hope for visits from fedex and usps today. Meanwhile I eat expensive pills as my gout flares, and hobble about. Thankfully only toe problems; fingers unaffected. Old man's blues come more from within than without, it seems. Endogenous misery: we become the source of our own troubles. But as I think on it, it seems that that's always the case - just the nature of the problem shifts.

Thankfully, vicarious joy is a stronger force than vicarious discomfort.

vkioulaphides
May-18-2004, 12:07pm
Sorry to hear that, Bob; I sure hope you feel better soon. But, as the line from Die Fledermaus goes, chacun a son gout http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I, for example, managed to cause myself great digestive discomfort by a few too many midnight dinners (after loooooong overtime duty in the pit during the last mega-production of Butterfly)— still, I have lived to tell, as will you.

The strings, in the very least, should come to you presently, as I know exactly when I sent them. Of course, strings alone without the instrument won't do much for you... Well, then; let us hope.

jeffshuniak
May-18-2004, 12:45pm
hello everybody !
ok, I'll report, but you guys better not make a huge line in front of me,

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I am not sure if I want to jump on it right away or not... I get gigs right away with a bazouki player named george something sounded like sapphos or spanos.. dino sent me his way, built his bazouki...


drum roll please......
solid bowl baglama, no pick guard, possibly the one (like) in the pic:
$250 euro...seems like a good deal..thanks vic..and I am joking of course about "making a huge line infront" the guy said he can whip them out pretty quick.

Sellars
May-19-2004, 3:26am
The smaller one is a one-of-a-kind creation of Sotirios Bras, an old family friend and neighbor; the larger one is a generic instrument, bought in the old city of Athens (Plaka) on the spur of the moment.
Wow! the coincidence!

My friend whose girlfriend is from Greece went To Greece this easter. He planned to buy a baglama, and he did. He was sitting at a local cafe drinking his coffee and playing his new baglama as a man aproached him. "Hey, you have a baglama" he said, and continued "I built baglamas, let me see yours". He saw that there was a crack in the neck, and told my friend to bring this one back. He also told him that he had to go to the shop of his brother to buy a baglama there.

My friend did both. The nice thing is, this is (i believe) the exact same builer as built yor baglama. I recognized it immediately at the shape of the headstock and the color of the baglama.

It's a small world http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

vkioulaphides
May-19-2004, 6:59am
How amazing! Yes, both Mr. Bras' family and mine come from the old neighborhood of Pangrati, the one directly behind the Panathenian Stadium (where the modern Olympics were restarted in 1896). In fact, his grandfather had some seven (or was it NINE?) children (!!!), all of whom went to public school with my mother and aunts in the '40's, played together as children...

A truly wild and wonderful coincidence! I would love to see images of instruments, if at all possible; if not, I will at least have the thrill of realizing, for yet one more time, what a small world this is!

Sellars
May-19-2004, 8:03am
A truly wild and wonderful coincidence! I would love to see images of instruments, if at all possible; if not, I will at least have the thrill of realizing, for yet one more time, what a small world this is!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif indeed http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have asked my friend to post his pictures here, but he is in Greece right now. When he returns I will ask him again (or do it myself)

There is a theory which says that you know all people on this world through 7 persons max. At times like these I really believe that. I mean we are 2 persons away from each other, unbelievable http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

terrific!

Bob A
May-19-2004, 4:41pm
Well, Victor (et al), the baglama arrived today. Very cute, with its 17 ribs, possibly rosewood, possibly walnut; its kitschy inlat - a tiny pearl flowerpot, from which spring two large blossoms of pearl, one with a coral center, the other a pale turquoise, and a smaller central bloom with a lemon center. Very 50s-looking colors there.

Inside is a printed label, clipped into an oval, with an address:119 West 3rd Street/ New York, N.Y./ Phone: GR 7-5813. Below, scripted in ink: a athanasia 1960. (It may be athanasiou).

Bridge seems glued in place: is this usual? No strings yet, but the action might be a tad high. Fortunatekly there is so much bridge it will be no problem to cut it down a bit. Missing a couple position dots, was very gritty when it arrived, but cleaned up pretty well. Looks like it was hung in the attic for the last 40 years - that kind of grit, that kind of smell. In fact, the picture wire that was attached to the top two tuners is still there: I can hang it from my shoulder holster and carry it under my arm. Tailpiece made for 8 strings, a stamping which also forms a little armrest, with "Dreim" stamped onto it. Fretboard pretty dry, with a couple little cracks. It sucked up a few doses of fretboard oil with no complaint. No fretwear to speak of, tuners seem to function.

All in all not bad for the price. Should be playable as-is. Further report will of course follow.

Bob A
May-19-2004, 11:48pm
Speaking as we were of coincidences, Ms Holst's teacher of rembetiko was T. Athanasiou, who is described as having lived in the US for 25 years, during part of which time he lived in NYC and made instruments. Of course, the first initial is different.

vkioulaphides
May-20-2004, 7:19am
Great! A bit of kitsch is, well... not uncommon in these instruments, flowerpot and all. This, in fact, is a pretty standard design.

In light of the 17 staves and the inlay alone, your baglama would be considered quite upscale. As for the action, with such small instruments that are affected enormously —in proportion, that is— by weather changes, you may need a "summer bridge" and a "winter bridge" eventually. But do string it up first and see how it feels. But no, the bridge is NOT to be glued on the top. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif What people do to instruments...

Pick on!

Bob A
May-21-2004, 2:00pm
Well, we're strung up (thanks, Victor!) and playing. An interesting sound for sure, and the intonation is quite good all the way on the high D string; A sharps out after fret 17. When you get way up the neck, the sound gets less like a stringed instrument, more like a xylophone or something-definitely sounds like you're whacking a tuned metal bar!

A real hoot to play. As soon as the novelty wears off a bit, Imagonna get the bridge de-glued, and maybe the saddle compensated a bit, new pearl dots where some are missing on the fretboard, and a Borsalino.

Let's all hear it for the piccolo bouzouki!

vkioulaphides
May-22-2004, 8:59am
Delighted to hear of the outcome, Bob. Enjoy!

With such minuscule instruments, even the slightest inaccuracy in the measurements does indeed become perceptible, vis a vis intonation, action, etc. But one must bear in mind that the original, lowly baglama was far cruder than the one you have: The "real" range was essentially one octave across the strings, one octave up each string; those oldies rarely had more than 12 frets. Why would they need more, considering the gruff, limited voices they accompanied/imitated?

And yes, the Borsalino is a must! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif