I got the Vega

[John Bertotti]

Oddly enough I got the Vega tuned intonation seems good but how the heck do you hold it? It just want's to slide around. I suppose it could be a conflict between its belly and mine. I can stabilize it with my fretting hand but then have problems fretting. I have never played any mandolin let alone a bowl. I don't remember this being a problem when I played guitar. Any help is appreciated. Also should I leave it tuned all the time. Or should the string tension be let up at night? Thanks all I did get a bit of a tune out of it but fretting the E string is a bit difficult still. First day, sore fingers, haven't played a fretted instrument in 20+ years, taking a hour break then I'll be at it again. Already been at it about four hours oh well. Thanks all John

[pklima]

Welcome to the brotherhood of the bowl! Holding the thing steady feels awkward at first but after a month or two it should become second nature. Once I got used to it it feels much more natural than balancing a flatback ever did. Maybe someone can post a good picture to guide you, but here's what Bickford's method says:

"The right knee may be crossed over the left, though this is not absolutely necessary. [...] the back of the ribs must be placed close to the body, well to the right side and with the top or face of the instrument very nearly perpendicular.

"The lower edge may be brought out slightly, if desired, so that the fingerboard can be seen.

"The left hand and neck of the instrument should be elevated slightly [...] but too much of an angle is not advised.

"It will be found an excellent rule to hold the instrument so that from the tenth to the twelfth fret comes directly in the center of the body of the performer. The left hand must be brought well back, so that it is practically in a straight line with the right hand when in a playing position, and so that the instrument is exactly parallel to the body."

Hope that helps. I had a Vega not long ago and it was a bit neck-heavy due to its light construction so it might be a bit harder to balance than other mandos. Some people put a piece of rubber or chamois in their lap to make a bit easier; I invariably wear leather vests when playing in public. Victor wears embroidered vests, but that's a cultural difference. We have similar disagreements regarding mustache-wax.

[John Bertotti]

Thanks Peter, that is pretty close to what I was doing. Funny, I was wearing a pair of sheepskin house shoes and when I brought my left foot up it helped a lot. I am still getting the neck deep into the v on my left hand. I find it difficult at best to keep just my thumb on the back of the neck. I must say having never heard any mandolin in person before this thing seems loud. I expected it to be much quieter. I can't imagine how loud an A or F must be. I was watching some folks on satellite playing mandolin, bowlbacks, standing up. If I tried that I'd drop it. Thanks again John

[Jim Garber]

Two things can help right off: go to a housewares store or your local supermarket and get some of that rubberized stuff they use for lining drawers (not sure what they call it. Cut off a small piece say about 8X8 inches and put it on your lap. Some folks find that a piece of chamois leather also works and is more "organic."

Also I find that using a footstool that classical guitarists use helps. I generally use it on my left foot (I play right handed) but I noticed that gerturde Troëster uses hers on her right foot to put the neck in a certain position.

In some ways i am still working on how to hold the thing, tho I have been able to play standing up at times.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Thanks Jim, I haven't tried the stool yet. I definitely aint going to try standing anytime in the near future. Thanks John

[pklima]

I could offer advice on playing standing but I'm afraid it's only useful to those with washboard stomachs. So instead here's what Bickford says regarding the thumb:

"The tip of the thumb (when the hand is in the first position) shoudl be in line with the first fret. When playing on the first two strings, the tip of the thumb will barely show above the edge of the fingerboard and the ball or fleshy cushion will rest against the neck, but when the fingers are brought over to the third and fourth strings, the thumb turns slightly so that the side, near the corner of the nail, is the only part that touches, while the tip drops down to a point from the level of the fingerboard to a quarter inch below, depending on the length of the thumb. [...] The lower edge of the fingerboard must touch the first finger at a point very near the second joint, which means that the knuckle joint is brought well under the neck, thus supporting instead of grasping it.

"The wrist must never be bent inwards, but forms a straight line from the elbow to the knuckle joints, with the single exception that when playing on the fourth string, it is frequently necessary to curve the wrist slightly outwards - the same being true in certain chord positions [...]"

Of course, that's not the only possible position and something different may work best with your hands' dimensions.

Oddly enough, Bickford refers to the bowlback mandolin as the "violin model". Never heard that anywhere else...

Regarding loudness, A and F models may or may not be louder depending on context. They produce more low frequencies which make it easier to play audibly with a bluegrass banjo in the room; on the other hand, bowlbacks produce more upper partials and are easier to play audibly with a concert grand piano in the room. And if you've never heard a proper concert grand in person, those things are MIGHTY!

[pklima]

Well, it pays to check other areas of the Cafe... as someone posted in the jazz section just this morning, vol. I of Bickford can apparently be downloaded from djangobooks.com. I feel a bit silly having just typed a half-page of it...

[Bob A]

Don't give up. It took a couple months before the bowl started to feel natural; now it's not an issue at all. I play sitting down, and the thing just sort of nestles in my lap.

You want to leave it tuned to pitch, 24/7. Else you'll drivbe the thing nuts as it keeps trying to adapt to varying tension, and you'll drive yourself nuts trying to keep it in tune, and your strings will need replacing a lot more often.

I've been a player of old Gibsons for a lot longer than I've played a bowlback. The thin profile of the neck still bugs me, since I keep my thumb at the side rather than beneath the neck. I bought my latest bowlback expressly because the neck had a deep profile. (But I kept it because it sounds great. I'll put up with a lot of grief from an instrument if it has The Sound.)

Speaking of The Sound, I'm also amazed at how much noise you can get from a bowlback. I think the Gibson types trade off the high end of the spectrum because they're made of so much wood; then they have to put on heavier strings to drive the top. No doubt in my mind - light construction and light strings can give you plenty of volume.

If you plan on playing while standing, I've found that being a little, ah, chubby, can help. Gives you (me) a sort of shelf to carry the mando on.

Watch out for your fingers and wrist. jumping into four-hour practice sessions after 20 years of no-play is asking for trouble. I had to fall back on wrapping the left wrist (lightly) woth an Ace bandage for a while when I got over-excited. Hasn't been a problem lately, I'm pleased to say, but better not to have the problem at all.

And watch out for the rubber stuff. It might outgas something that would react with the finish. (Not a problem while you're playing, but don't store stuff in contact with the instrument, if you can help it).

Neil Gladd uses a chamois. I imagine it would be difficult keeping it from leaping from crag to crag, but he's a man of many talents.

[RSW]

Bob, Gibson strings of the first quarter to half of the 20th century were as light (gauge/tension) as anything used on Vinaccia's or similar (I've got several packets of these vintage strings). Remember, original Gibson mandolins were designed by someone from the upper mid-west with those nasty winters and extremely humid summers. What you get is an instrument built to resist. That they are as good as they are in so many music styles is amazing.

[John Bertotti]

Bob A I probably did close to 7 hours last night. No wrist problems, I work my wrists real hard in combat hapkido, but my fingers are sore. I certainly have a long ways to go. I remember reading music but now it's almost a completely foreign language. I am still having fun though I just have to be patient progress never seems to come quick enough. Thanks John

[Eugene]

More on holding the thing. #For wee, Italian/American-style bowlbacks, I either cross my right leg over the left, Bickford-like as described above, or use a guitar footstool under my right foot to give a comparable stance to the leg crossing. #I favor the footstool if I'll be playing for a while; the leg-cross thing causes my foot to fall asleep if I remain in that position too long. #There is plenty of precedence for right-leg elevation in golden-era methods. #Elevating the left leg, classical-guitar-like, just doesn't work for me with the narrow table of old-fashioned bowlbacks. #Players of broad-tabled German-type mandolins or archtops seem to raise the left leg pretty comfortably, and I will play my Gibson that way.

I sometimes use some chamois over my right thigh, but not often (Neil's, by the way, is a synthetic). #The instrument is largely kept relatively stable by the natural weight of the right forearm against the edge of the soundboard; this shouldn't be a conscious effort to exert pressure, just the weight of your arm at rest. #Picking action mostly comes from my wrist with the forearm's contact remaining constant.

...And after you've digested all this advice, John, discard it and do whatever works.

[John Bertotti]

Thanks everyone I was unintentionally doing some of this by the end of the night just because it felt better. I have noticed I am using a bit of forearm motion not just wrist. My wrist is semi lose. Bought the Mel Bay book today also saw fret board road maps there but thought I should take it slower at first. I don't want to force any bad habits. Oddly I dreamed of playing all night long. I spend so much time sparring I usually dream of fighting technique. It was certainly a more relaxing sleep last night. Thanks all John Gotta go practice some more! Later

[Eugene]

Check out the web site of Het Consort (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/index.html) for lots of images of right-leg raisers and crossers enjoying fine mandolins.

[Jim Garber]

Now, Eugene, you got me going. My knee position is a work-in-progress. I haven't looked at the authorities, ie, the methods but just trying to find the most logical position of this mandolin on my lap. One thing is certain: there is a difference between the smaller American bowlbacks and my Pandini. Isuppose some of it is in the balance and the difference in size.

For some odd reason I have been gravitating toward the left foot while playing the Pandini but have not quite figured why.

Jim

[Eugene]

Well, Pandini's stuff is certainly a little stockier than Vega's. In her video, Gertrud (with her stoutish Knorr) has poor Max elevating his left leg to meet his Suzuki. While I certainly wouldn't compare the quality of Pandini to Suzuki, they do seem to be of similar proportions. Max's right arm looks absolutely uncomfortable to me in this position. You'll find a lot of Pandini mandolins amongst this lot (http://www.aonzo.com/artist/Mandolin%20Orchestra/mandolinorchestra.htm). From what I can make out of the images, they look to be right-leg crossers. More power to'em; my right foot would be dead numb to the point of practically gangrenous within 30 minutes if I tried that. That said, I would wager whatever works for you, Jim, is working very well.

[Jim Garber]

Yes, it would seem that the right knee is the one to raise. Eugene, you are quite adept at discerning the knee positions in these group photos, but I do beleive that you are correct.

BTW here is Richard Walz (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/agenda/walz.jpg) from Alex's Het Consort site.

Of course, Sebastiaan (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/2002/en2002-14.htm) plays cross-legged. Maybe it has to do with old(ar) age and blood circulation.

Jim

[Eugene]

Bought the Mel Bay book today also saw fret board road maps there but thought I should take it slower at first. I don't want to force any bad habits.
I am not a fan of the Mel Bay book. #Mark recently brought this to our attnetion: Bickford's mandolin method, vol. 1 (http://www.djangobooks.com/archives/2004/05/02/new_ebook_the_bickford_mandolin_method.html). #This is volume 1 of the 4-volume American classic mentioned above, and the only volume still in print. #It's published by Carl Fischer (http://www.carlfischer.com) #I consider Bickford's method to be far more useful than Mel Bay's. #You may want to look for a hard copy of the Bickford method or consider paying for the download and printing one off, John.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Eugene and Jim and John of course,

All my mandolin students play in the Traditional Italian style; that is with the mandolin on their right upper leg.

If you can´t hold up that position by crossing your right leg over your left one, perhaps a guitar foot stool under your right foot will help you out. #

Here a nice bird´s eye picture of some of my students playing (in that sitting position with a foot stool under the right foot) with wind instruments etc. performing a crazy suite by Erik Satie called ´Jack in the Box´. Big Fun!

Best,

Alex

[vkioulaphides]

Hmm... I don't know what the statistics would be, but somehow I have a hunch that I may have spent a larger percentage of my mando-time standing than most— under some fair creature's balcony, of course! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (*ekhm, ekhm* I DO mean my wife, daughter, or sister...)

So, when the crossing of legs gets a bit tiring, I revert the mandolin to the position I hold it in while standing (even though, naturally I stay sitting) and simply uncross my legs long enough to loosen up.

Even without those breaks, though, keeping my legs crossed does not bother me; I try not to bear down on them with my upper body weight, which, as Jim writes, would lead to instant gangrene. Hmm... I also seem to cross my legs very loosely, very lightly, as if I could hypothetically stand up in an instant, without any major adjustments in my posture.

I also have a foot-stool from the bygone era I played the guitar. Somehow, however, I don't seem to find adequate reason to use it while playing mandolin; in fact, it feels like the stool would need to be adjusted super-high in order to bring the mandolin up to the right height.

All this, of course, bearing in mind that I play simple repertoire, 99% in the lowest 5 positions, and that I am far from the requirements of "concert" performance. Perhaps its that rough-and-ready lineage of great-uncles playing mandolins on family outings, sitting on any old boulder or tree-stump they could find readily available...

[John Bertotti]

I just downloaded the Bickford method and what I've read so far blows away the Mel Bay Book. For 6 whole dollars you can't go wrong. Thanks All John

[Martin Jonas]

If you want to see how a good soloist holds a bowlback when playing, have a look at the Consort (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/samples/ensamples.htm) site, where you can download a nice video clip of a solo performance of the Calace Prelude No. 2. Apart from being very impressive playing, it gives a much better impression of how to hold the instrument than descriptions, diagrams or photographs can. Another bonus is that it shows the long Ranieri plectrum in action, which explains just how one should hold such an unwieldy thing. I won't try it any time soon, I think.

Martin

[Eugene]

I just downloaded the Bickford method and what I've read so far blows away the Mel Bay Book. For 6 whole dollars you can't go wrong.
It's a great method, but be mindful of the speculative bits of history Bickford interjects. Much scholarship has happened since Bickford's writing.

[John Bertotti]

Everyone thanks, I just realized that I've taken to the crossed leg playing only I mean indian style crossed legs. I imagine because I've been practicing before bed so I've been playing while sitting on the bed. Hope that isn't a bad habit, I try sitting on the edge of the bed. Thanks again John

[John Bertotti]

FWIW in the last couple of months the holding the instrument has come along nicely. I do have a problem with my right arm sliding back. What I mean is if I start playing and it is a page long, by the time I'm done my arm will have moved from me picking over the sound hole to well behind it. I'm not sure why, it happens less if I'm holding like I'm standing. I checked to make sure it wasn't the instrument sliding along its curve but it's staying put. I'm moving my whole arm back apparently. Any suggestions? John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Ali]

Hi, hadn't seen this topic before...so a bit of a late comer....but someone mentioned the rubber stuff to stop instrument running off while you're trying to play. I used a Chamois leather for YEARS until about 2 years ago and then disocvered "rubber stuff" - I actually use the slightly thicker stuff designed for going unde rugs placed on hard wood floors...... to stop it being Too sticky and damaging finish on instrument what I do is....
Get you piece of rubber stuff and sit in front of TV for an evening fiddling with it....rollit around in your hands and twist and turn it, screw it up into a ball etc...etc... do this for several hours and you'll find it very theraputic... and you'll also have a much softer, more flexible and far less sticky rubber thing - perfect for mandolin playing! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif