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Chip Gulbro
Jan-31-2004, 6:50pm
I don't post much any more so excuse me if it has been discussed before. I was wondering just how many actual professional musicians are buying the Dudes, Montes, the Gils, and the Nuggets. My guess is that they can't afford them. This is sad for them if true. Perhaps there has all ready been a poll. I just can't fathom the price's these fetch.
I thought that the violin market was the most inflated of fine instruments till recently.
If you are a pro and would like to chime in, please do.

Chip Gulbro

sunburst
Jan-31-2004, 7:19pm
I used to work for a high-end instrument manufacturer. The majority of the fancy high-dollar custom ones that went out of there were bought by doctors, lawyers and other affluent types that wanted the best. Professional musicians usually went for the lower price ranges. These were just general trends that I observed, not always the case.
I suspect that the majority of the high priced mandolins that you mentioned are going to the affluent, not the working pro musicions.
BUT...I don't think that is sad because you don't have to pay the top prices to have top quality! The "supply and demand" of the market has pushed the prices up. There are good builders in various stages of their careers building top quality mandolins at prices that range from grossly undervalued to about the same as a good factory instrument.

mandojosh
Feb-01-2004, 2:47am
Yes, Docs and Lawyers! And most great musicians absoloutly can not afford a Gil, Monty, Dude or anything like that. They mostly rely on people giving them there " High Quality" instrument, but like sunburst said, I have played many a Dude and all those other mandos, and alot of them dont cut it in the sound department, Ive played alot of $2500 mandos, that blow away the $24000 ones. So I wouldn't worry about it!
Josh

JAK
Feb-01-2004, 4:42pm
Chip, what price range do you consider "expensive?"

evanreilly
Feb-01-2004, 4:55pm
I believe that Ricky Skaggs paid a mid-five figure sum for his July 9th, 1923 Loar mandolin. He certainly is a performer using that instrument on stage & recording. He is not a lawyer, nor a doctor.

Brian Aldridge
Feb-01-2004, 5:06pm
mandojosh, you say you have played many a Dude, eh? I smell BS. There aren't many a Dudes even in existence. I often wonder when I see people comment that they've played "a bunch of" Loars and Gils and Nuggets, just how many they really have played. Just because some anonomous individual "claims" to know something, at best it is just one person's often biased opinion.

mandojosh
Feb-01-2004, 5:21pm
Smell BS ehh? Ive played three dudes, the only one that Ive played that sounds good is Chris Thiles. And I have had the honnor to hang out with Steven Gilchrist and have played his personal mandolin, Matt Flinner's Gil, Grismans Gil, and a collector I give lessons to has one. And montys are not that rare, I played three at winfield. So no BS. Here is a link to my sight if you dont believe me that I've played chris's dude, or grisman's mandos, look at the photos, www.joshpinkham.com O yeah, I have played six Loars including Mike Marshall's and Grisman's.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Josh

mpeknox
Feb-01-2004, 5:34pm
brian,
uh....oops!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
seriously, you might want to have a peek at this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=9288;hl=mandojosh)

Brian Aldridge
Feb-01-2004, 5:42pm
oops... I now stand corrected. The Gilchrists, Dudenbostels and Monteleones aren't really very good.

rnjl
Feb-01-2004, 6:07pm
There's a quote from the film "Dead Man Walking" where the prison guard says something like "I ain't gonna get into a Bible-quoting contest with a nun!"

Peace and happy music to everybody!

Feb-01-2004, 7:05pm
Don't feel bad Brian. #I wouldn't have described three as "many a" but that is a very imprecise phrase. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Nick Triesch
Feb-01-2004, 8:53pm
One of the things I really like about Chris Thile is what a modest young man he is. I really respect that. Nick

bflat
Feb-01-2004, 9:59pm
the young man gave an honest, and accurate answer, to which someone said he was bs ing, and he responded as most young guys would. there's good music being made on some local made instruments, get out to the campgrounds and festivals, you'll see he's right. show up at local jam with your 10-30k mando you better be able to knock down the house with it.

GTison
Feb-01-2004, 10:58pm
In 1923 and there abouts, who bought all those expensive $250 loars? They could have had car or 2.

mandojosh
Feb-01-2004, 11:50pm
Im verry sorry if I came across as "cocky" I just tend to take ofence when somebody says I was BSing. And I think three dudes is alot considering there's only like 28 or something out there. Again verry sorry brian if I came across as a jerk.

mandojosh
Feb-01-2004, 11:55pm
O and the reason I was name dropping was so that I had a person to back up the mandos I have played, again sorry. Blue my top.

Josh

Chip Gulbro
Feb-01-2004, 11:57pm
To JAK
I would consider paying more than 10 g's to be inflated for the vast majority of mando's. I remember playing an excellent A- Gil 3 or 4 years ago. Just last year I saw the same model used for sale for several g's more. I could be wrong, but this inflation seemed to coincide by the way with the sale of Monroe's Loar 2 or 3 years ago. His went for 1.1 mill I think.
I am happy at the moment with my ebay find-a 99 Steven Weill Givens Legacy A. I paid a modest sum compared to others comparable in quality. And it is a high quality instrument which I could recommend to anyone.

kuti
Feb-02-2004, 12:53am
mandojosh,

If you really are Josh Pinkham, I encourage you to spend more and more of your time with David, and Mike, and Chris and less and less time on this board. You have access to the absolute best that the world has to offer. Your time and attention will be best spent with them -- without the distractions and diversion of these trivial pursuits.

For what it's worth, defending senseless mandolin arguments doesn't suit you anymore than it does David, or Mike, or Chris, or Steve. And I can't remember them posting here recently to defend anything.

Play well, Josh Pinkham.

Kuti

StoneSt
Feb-02-2004, 12:59am
And I'd add, if you ever play poker...Never apologize for not bluffing! A guy takes a gamble when he calls a bluff. His deal.

mandojosh
Feb-02-2004, 1:22am
Thanks guys. I just was sharing my opinion with the guy who started this thread, and then I got called a lyer and it got me mad for a short amount of time, and your right I should not have concerned my self with it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif thanks guys.

Josh

cutbait2
Feb-02-2004, 10:31pm
about a year ago Wes from Liberty Pike (before he played with them) posted for a while. he had just won Merle Fest i think, was interesting to hear the frank opinions from another young picker and I appreciate these young guys breathing a litte fresh air (and knowledge) into the discussions. however you should note Josh that not too many doctors, lawyers, and accountants appreciate being told their 30k mando isn't 15x better than a 2k Shue (for instance). (Shue is a good builder in NC)

John Jesseph
Feb-02-2004, 10:43pm
Josh, I don't think you have anything to apologize for. Brian seems pretty unapologetic for calling you a liar and being wrong. I have played four Dudes all side by side along with MM's, a couple of Nuggets, 2 Loars, a bunch of Gils at a picking party. I agree with you. Keep up the good work.

John Flynn
Feb-02-2004, 10:53pm
...not too many doctors, lawyers, and accountants appreciate being told their 30k mando isn't 15x better than a 2k Shue
That is a list of three professions whose feelings I am not all that concerned about and IMO need and deserve every dose of reality the world can serve them. I really appreciated Josh's comments. Not many people have played that variety of instruments and are willing to give frank opinions about them.


...defending senseless mandolin arguments doesn't suit you anymore than it does David, or Mike, or Chris, or Steve.
kuti: If you think these threads are senseless, what are you doing here? And what are you insinuating about the rest of us? I don't think this thread is senseless, nor do I believe that about my fellow board members (OK, most of them, anyway!). I for one hope Josh stays around and shares his opinions and I wish those other guys would too. We are all just people who play the same instrument, albiet at different levels. A person doesn't have "sense" just because they play well and have CDs out, and they are not "senseless" because they don't.

stanley
Feb-03-2004, 12:07am
I totally agree. We're lucky to have contributions from Josh and other great players here...that's what sets this site apart from the rest. There's nothing wrong with stating your opinion...especially if you can back it up! I think a full apology is warrented from both kuti & brian. But I guess that's just my opinion...

Bill

ps when does this end and we get back on topic?

mcmando
Feb-03-2004, 12:18am
OK, back on topic now...

I'm not a professional musician, a doctor, lawyer, or any of that. #I'm a mediocre picker at best! #I do, however, have a raging case of MAS and want to have the best mando that I can justify. #

Note the word justify-- I have a#good job and *could* buy most any mandolin out there for sale (Loar's excepted!), but I just can't convince myself that I need to. #My wife's an even harder sell on this point!

That doesn't stop me from the gradual process of selling my wife on the next one that tickles the old mando fancy. #Like a lot of folks, I'm trading up to ever more expensive instruments, and someday I might even own one of the "expensive" ones listed in the post that started this thread.

Look at this way, there are a lot worse, and more expensive, habits than mandos in the world. #Mandos hold their value pretty well if you take good care of them. #Many things you might buy loose value the whole time you own them. #Plus mandos don't take up much space! I don't know about others here on the board, but mandos mean more to me than cars for example. Cars are just transportation to me, but mandos are pure joy!

peterleyenaar
Feb-03-2004, 12:25am
Mandojosh, could you give as some idea as to how you experienced the very expensive mandolins as compared to mandolins such as Collings, Gibsons, Webers or similar quality mandolins, is the difference in sound quality huge or are they better but not by a huge amount ?

It would also depend on the skill level of the musician, I would imagen that the quality of a very expensive mandolin is probably wasted on a intermediate non professional mandolin player, what is your opinion on this,
Thanks for any input
Peter

jlb
Feb-03-2004, 12:26am
I'm not sure who's buying these mandolins, but to those people, I have a beuatiful, vintage, 2001 Honda Civic priced to sell at $50,000.

mcmando
Feb-03-2004, 12:27am
Peter,

... hey, I resemble that comment...:laugh:

John Flynn
Feb-03-2004, 1:05am
Well, there is no denying that everyone is free to buy whatever legal product they can afford. But everyone else is also free to have an opinion about it. My personal opinion is that anyone who shows up at a jam or a workshop, or otherwise makes it public knowledge that they own a 5-figure instrument, but plays like a beginner, will not get my respect. I will consider that person a phony and based on past experience, I will feel safe in assuming that person is likely a phony in other areas of thier life.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I would definitely indulge my MAS, but I would not embarrass myself by buying one of the ultra-high-end instruments listed. Plus, I know I can be just as happy playing a mando of a fraction of the price and do something good with the rest of the money.

mcmando
Feb-03-2004, 1:10am
Thank you sir, may I have another...:O

mandodon
Feb-03-2004, 1:22am
Buying a mandolin at the prices asked for at the very high end is an act of pure self worship...someone has to say it.

If you have that kind of dough, do the world a favor, buy a mandolin that's as good or 99% as good at 25-50%the price, and donate the difference to charity.

In our society, of course this will never happen, but I can be a dreamer http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ethanopia
Feb-03-2004, 1:33am
let us not forget that a lot of the folks who own the "high dollar" instruments purchased them before they were worth five figures.

I also like the point that someone made that there a number of more expensive hobbies out there.

My second cousin for instance has spent well over six figures restoring a garage full of retractable hard top Ford Fairlanes, Harleys, Hot Rods etc. Talk about an expensive (albeit enjoyable) hobby.
just to name a few others

Golf, Skiing, SCUBA, Racing, Snowmobiling, None of which stimulate my brain like burning through the changes of some cool tunes!

Its all in where you want to put your money :-)

Bradley
Feb-03-2004, 1:41am
[QUOTE]get out to the campgrounds and festivals, you'll see he's right. show up at local jam with your 10-30k mando you better be able to knock down the house with it.

Could we say that this is reverse mandolin snobbery?

So should we say that if you pull up at a redlight on your $30K Harley that you'd better be able to outrun the $7000 Honda "crotch rocket" in the next lane.Why of course not!!

You just kick it in gear and cruise...because you know that in 20 years the Honda will be a PopCan and your Harley will be in the Garage gaining value $$$$$$$$$$$

The last time I checked we live in a free market economy.If someone wants to sink $20K on a mandolin let them write the check regardless of their playing ability.
Its their Money and chances are if they have that much money that they arent ready to miss their next meal so why should we worry.

John Flynn
Feb-03-2004, 1:43am
let us not forget that #a lot of the folks who own the "high dollar" instruments purchased them before they were worth five figures.
This brings up a good point. The upward effect on prices of "vanity demand" and "investment demand" works against the serious musician, the musician who really should be playing a 5-figure instrument. Because these mandos are increasing in value out of proportion to thier intrinsic value as tools of making music, they are now out of reach of the majority of serious players. While a few of the very top musicians have them or can get them, good players stuggling to get to the top in music, or just struggling to make a living at it, can't.

Feb-03-2004, 1:47am
Oh good grief.......who gives a rats rear what someone is willing to or able to pay for a mando. It's really nobodies business but the guy that bought it. Playing ability doesn't have a damn thing to do with it either....... A beginner with a Dude is just that....A beginner with a real nice mando.....so what!

Bradley
Feb-03-2004, 1:48am
Amen Reverend Dale #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[QUOTE]good players stuggling to get to the top in music, or just struggling to make a living at it, can't.

From what I understand is the average pay for mandolin players(with a few exceptions) they'd be better off getting a day job.

I have always wandered how many people on the board are full time musicians? We all really look up to those guys but unless you are one of the top 7-8 players it would be a very bumpy road for your bank account.I heard Vince Gill say one time after being asked "why did you quit bluegrass...his reply was" I had a dream of owning a home".

If the top mandolins were only sold to the Professionals then we wouldn't get to discuss many of the private builders anyway, they would also be forced to work a day job, and make 1 mandolin a year.So it is people like "Us" that keep these companies in business....

mando bandage
Feb-03-2004, 1:49am
I just learned that the Loar unearthed last month was "born" the same day as my mother, may she rest in peace. I owe it to her memory to have that mando! Must buy lottery tickets tonight!

R

cutbait2
Feb-03-2004, 1:56am
the point was that theres alot of <2k mando out there that will serve as well as 10-30k ones. if someone can and does afford a high end that's super, some builder is making a good living. and if you show up at a jam with an expensive instrument i'm sure everyone will enjoy playing it. after they tell you it sounds about like their $500 MK.

jiffyfeet
Feb-03-2004, 2:01am
I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Dale here. I don't see why it should matter if someone can afford to buy a better mando than someone else. And saying they should give that money to charity instead of spending it on a mando is about the most absurd thing I've ever seen on this board. It reeks of jealousy, the least attractive of emotions.

How many of you have paid more than $3,000 for your cars? OMFG SELF-WORSHIP!!! Seriously, people have different priorities. Just because someone's willing to pay $25,000 for a mando doesn't mean you know anything about them.

Russ(String-Alley)
Feb-03-2004, 2:25am
heres my $1.00, -.98

I feel very fortunate to own not one but two Weber mando's and a "vintage" (if I can say so) Flatiron. I don't even deserve to own such great mando's but somehow I do. I scrounged and saved to get them becasue I loved the tone and playability of them. A lot of your identity/sound comes from you, not the mando, the tone of your mando takes up the rest of the ratio in the "pickers Pie". all I can hope is that I can play better on mine then the Samick A style I picked my first note on about 7 years ago.

I can't afford much more than what I already have, nor do I want to at this time, All I want to do is play better. Im afraid I can't be much help on this topic.

cheers pickers big$$$$$ and small$$
Russ

John Jesseph
Feb-03-2004, 3:00am
Some guy on a violin site I frequent was asking about what bows he should be checking out in his price range, around $20,000.

Makes these mandos seem like a bargain...

cutbait2
Feb-03-2004, 3:03am
for instance there's an article in this months BG unlimited about well known song writer Alan Laney, he plays a Horner F and an A. there's a Horner F in the classifieds for $2400.

ps I got the strap Dale, thanks, looks like it will work.

ps2 a beginner with a Dude is a real Dude (in the Texas sense of the word) but he's probably a happy Dude

mandodon
Feb-03-2004, 3:20am
How many of you have paid more than $3,000 for your cars? #OMFG SELF-WORSHIP!!! #Seriously, people have different priorities.

I will quote what I said.


In our society, of course this will never happen, but I can be a dreamer http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Again, at some point with whatever, cars, mandos, etc. it gets into the realm of self-worship, the opposite of citizen thinking. We are not communisists, thank God, but we are still citizens.

Feb-03-2004, 3:27am
I don't see how me paying what I consider to be a fair rate for something I consider to be high quality is "self worship". Can you elaborate??

mandodon
Feb-03-2004, 3:34am
It is my opinion, and take it as just that, that lets say you spent 50K on a car. #You just made a decision not to spend 30K on acts of citizenship that benefit people other than yourself.

Of course, I can feel the flames searing my throat already...I was raised in a household that highly values charity above what I consider extraneous material gain.

I realize that everyone wasn't raised in this way, and I don not think I am morally superior to anyone. #Looking back, the "self-worship" comment was in poor taste.

My humble apologies.

mcmando
Feb-03-2004, 3:40am
I must say that I don't understand mando johnny's contention that only pros should own mandos over a certain $. ONe point made in this thread is that most pros don't, not necessarily becasue they can't but because there are lot lower priced mandos out there that SOUND better. And of course, the pros know, don't they?

mandolooter
Feb-03-2004, 3:49am
Please refer to Dales post...:)

mandojosh
Feb-03-2004, 3:50am
Well, no matter what, you can even ask the best builders in the world like Steven Gilchrist, or John Montleone, and they will tell you, " some times I build three mandos that sound exactly the same, and I feel like I have finally tapped into what most builders want, making mandolins that all sound the same, and then the fourth mando I build, totally has its own voice! Along with the ten others following it," So what Im getting at, is every mando has its own voice. Wood is so inconsistent even the best builders out there dont know what it is going to do. And to tell you the truth if I had the money to buy one, I would right now buy a Gilchrist, he is probably my fav builder out there and I think he is really tapping into something. And price does not mean sound quality all the time, like dudes, he got his rep, because of Chris ( not saying that his mandos dont sound good). So I think you just shouldent be fooled by price, but alot of the time yes, it does equal quality. And thats just my opinion!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But again I have all the respect for John , Steven, And Lynn Dude, they are building amazing mandos, I jump at the chance to play any of there mandos when ever I get the chance.

jlb
Feb-03-2004, 3:54am
I really shouldn't post this: PLEASE don't misinterperet it as flame-bait...just an idea thrown out for discussion.

From a "poor musician" standpoint, don't the top makers hold some culpability for setting their prices so high. I know a squirrel will get the biggest nut he can, but...well, maybe that's the answer right there.

mcmando
Feb-03-2004, 3:54am
Oh and mandodon, the only relationship I can see between worship and mandolin ownership is if you use it to make music at your Church, synagogue, mosque, etc. By your logic, we should all only rent a small apartment so we can donate to charity all of the money we'd otherwise pay for housing.

Let's be real about this-- what one chooses to donate to charity is a private concern that depends on having the means as well as the heart to make the sacrifice. As with the widow's mite, sometimes the least donation can represent the most sacrifice. In the USA, our poorest people have much much more than entire populations in some countries.

I give a lot to charitable organizations-- much more each year than I have spent in total on mandolins. Not braggin', just fact. I give becasue I do have so much, and no I don't feel guilty about having the means to do so, and no I don't live like pauper in order to so. I don't know anyone who does, and I suspect if I did you wouldn't find them reading and posting to a message board on the topic of mandolins!

Brookside
Feb-03-2004, 4:18am
I asked a question in the builders forum a couple of weeks ago and it was suggested that I bring it over here. The question was, Can you hear the difference between F's and A's; Loars and copies? I appreciate the honest input from those who have played em all.

I would still like more input on this slightly different question. Can you tell what you are playing/listening to in a blind "Pepsi challenge"? Would you be able to pick out the Loar or other high-end mando among several other 2k mandos? Could you pick out the A's from the F's?

As far as who is buying what, I too am a bit perplexed as to why anyone would care. I've seen on these boards buyers refered to as vultures, simply because they bought for the "wrong" reason. I hardly play at all but I would be pleased to own a high-end mandolin. It's a work of art that most likely would hold or increase in value. It's not a work of art, you would say, it's meant to be played by serious musicians. Says you. It is whatever I, the owner, regard it as. You wouldn't catch me showing up at a camp-fire to perform the G scale for veteran pickers. Nor if I were a dentist, would I haul my custom Harley to Sturgis on the back of a trailer, unload it and ride it up main street. But if I love it for its' beauty or its' value, taint none of your beeswax.

One more thought along those lines. I recently read of a concert violinist who left his 3 million dollar violin on a train. I wonder, are all world class violinists multi-millionaires? Seems they all own an instrument worth millions. Perhaps many of them have owned them since before the investors/collectors drove the prices up, thus making them millionaires.

doanepoole
Feb-03-2004, 4:24am
Can you tell what you are playing/listening to in a blind "Pepsi challenge"? Would you be able to pick out the Loar or other high-end mando among several other 2k mandos? Could you pick out the A's from the F's?

On the co-mando GOTW with David Grisman ( http://www.co-mando.com/resources/CGOW/dawg.php ), he stated that he challenged several vintage dealers to take a "Pepsi challenge" of his mandos, and very few accepted. Only one that did actually the test had a decent score.

That says alot to me, anyway.

mandofiddle
Feb-03-2004, 4:34am
From a "poor musician" standpoint, don't the top makers hold some culpability for setting their prices so high. #I know a squirrel will get the biggest nut he can, but...well, maybe that's the answer right there.
I think at this point, it is the demand of their instruments that is driving their prices up, not the builders. #The fact that someone who got on a waiting list 3+ years ago, paid the going rate of the instrument as it was then, and then turns around and sells the instrument for 2-3 times as much as they paid for it now when they take ownership is the problem. #The builder is not seeing any of this money. #So how can they stop this from happening? #They stop taking orders (close their waiting list), and raise their prices. #It only seems fair to me. #Why should the middleman make more money than the builder? #In essence, you can't really blame any 1 person for the prices these mandolins are selling for. #Only the market is to blame, and we are ALL responsible for the market...

jlb
Feb-03-2004, 4:37am
mandofiddle,

point well taken.


Only the market is to blame, and we are ALL responsible for the market...

You're right! #I, and just about every mando picker I know personally, are keeping the Asian market alive and well. #I always kinda feel guilty about this, because its a job my neighbor, in my opinion, should have. But what else can ya do in this market when you gotta feed kids on a budget?

Off topic...this is about the high end...

mandofiddle
Feb-03-2004, 4:41am
Hey jlb, you can do what I did... I know a builder personally, and traded lots of stuff that he wanted and I no longer had a use for, + a little bit of cash ($800) i I remember correctly, and get an American made solid wood mando.

Of course I know I got lucky with this situation, as I now have a mando I love, and it didn't cost me as much as it should have. Lord knows that if I had to pay full price in cash, I couldn't even have afforded half the mandolin... I'd be playing an MK, and probably loving it, if that was the case. Heck, anything is better than the POS I had previously.

doanepoole
Feb-03-2004, 4:50am
Just stop playing bluegrass. #There's little to no money in it anyway, and the world is your oyster if you can get by with a flattop.

P.S. I don't think you should feel guilty about buying an Asian mando. Who here is offering you the same product at that price? They're building for a market, you're in that market, enough said.

John Flynn
Feb-03-2004, 5:09am
I recently read of a concert violinist who left his 3 million dollar violin on a train. #I wonder, are all world class violinists multi-millionaires? #Seems they all own an instrument worth millions. #Perhaps many of them have owned them since before the investors/collectors drove the prices up, thus making them millionaires.
I asked my friend with the St. Louis Symphony about this. He told me that a lot of the super-expensive instruments played in concert do not belong to the players themselves. They are owned by investors and rich patrons of the arts and there is some sponsorship arrangement by which the musician gets to play the instrument. He said the players often don't even get to choose who works on the instrument if it needs adjustment. It may have to be shipped to someone halfway around the world to a repair person of the owner's choosing.

BenE
Feb-03-2004, 5:35am
I think at this point, it is the demand of their instruments that is driving their prices up, not the builders. #The fact that someone who got on a waiting list 3+ years ago, paid the going rate of the instrument as it was then, and then turns around and sells the instrument for 2-3 times as much as they paid for it now when they take ownership is the problem. #The builder is not seeing any of this money. #So how can they stop this from happening? #They stop taking orders (close their waiting list), and raise their prices. #It only seems fair to me. #Why should the middleman make more money than the builder? #In essence, you can't really blame any 1 person for the prices these mandolins are selling for. #Only the market is to blame, and we are ALL responsible for the market...


Those that got on the initial waiting list took a chance/risk that (fortunately for them) paid off. #There are always gonna be people that want it yesterday and are willing to pay for it. #I really don't see a problem with waiting for three years on a mandolin and then reselling it for 2 to 3 times as much. #It looks like the builder is getting the short end of the stick but in reality the builder got his asking price and should be happy. #The buyer that is not willing to wait got his mandolin and the person selling the mando for 2-3 times more is grinning all the way to the bank! #Gotta love capitalism!


He said the players often don't even get to choose who works on the instrument if it needs adjustment. It may have to be shipped to someone halfway around the world to a repair person of the owner's choosing.

If I loaned you my two million dollar car to use for the year and it had to go to the shop for a valve adjustment...you could bet that I would have a designated shop to work on my car! #No shadetree mechanic would be touching my two mil chariot! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Don Grieser
Feb-03-2004, 6:19am
I'm one of those guys who got on a big name maker's list 6 years ago. I'm not wealthy. I made some financial choices--I drove used vehicles until they dropped (280,000 miles on one and no A/C), I did without a lot of things--to come up with an outrageous amount of money at that time to buy the mandolin of my dreams. It doesn't do me any good that the price of this mandolin has tripled in the used market--It'd be the very last thing I would sell. I take it to festivals and I let other people play it. I bought and sold a lot of mandolins by respected builders looking for "the one." So you can generalize however much you want about people with high end mandolins and their motives. But remember, there are individual people who love to play the mandolin as much as you do, and some of them made difficult choices to get their dream mandolin.

f5joe
Feb-03-2004, 7:42am
Don: I wish I would have said that. Well stated. Thank you. Joe

Feb-03-2004, 9:33am
Josh....no worries...its all good. i respect that you do have experience with the high end mandos and you aren't caught up in the prices instead of the quality of the sound/tone. i do have a question for you though....what are some of the small builders you have played that you've been impressed with? thx..

tiltman
Feb-03-2004, 9:40am
Boy, this whole thread is making me wonder...
AM I WORTHY OF THE MANDO I PLAY?!?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mandojosh
Feb-03-2004, 10:21am
Any body is worthy of any mando they play.
Jim Triggs builds exceptional mandos, Lawn Williamson, he a fella near me, he is building great sounding mandos, Skip Kelley, he is a builder in NC, his mandos sound like cannons. There are alot out there, but again Ive played mandos from my fav builders, expensive or not, and thought they sounded great, and then played the mando they built right afterward, and thought it was a not so good sounding. So I allmost would rather give a specific mando rather than a builder in general.

Josh

Greenmando
Feb-03-2004, 10:31am
I wish my playing was worthy of the mandolins I own.

BigJoe
Feb-03-2004, 1:46pm
Man I hate to speak to this thread. First, I know many, many professional mandolin players, and none of them are playing under two grand mandos. There are several reasons, but mostly because they do not sound as good as the more expensive ones. There are lots of reasons for that but that is another thread. Many of them, like me and many others, started on lesser expensive mandos, but they were able to migrate to the upper end of the spectrum and enjoy the difference the quality and sound make. Yes, you can find some very nice mandolins for less than two K, but not the same as the major high enders build. This seems to be another thread where someone is feeling a little wimpy about their low end mando and is looking for reinforcement. Most of the high end mandos I see are not in the hands of lawyers, doctor, or other high end professionals, but in the hands of ordinary people who just love the mandolin and save until they can get the mandolin of their dreams. No shame in that. Some are great players and some could not play their way out of a wet paper bag, but that makes no difference. The real thing is they buy what they love and love what they buy!

Hey MandoJosh! Good to see you are doing great. Good to see you at NAMM. Hey guys...he is the real deal and he does not play junk. Oh, he's not a lawyer or a doctor either. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

peterleyenaar
Feb-03-2004, 1:52pm
You all go home now and play your (cheapos or richos) mandolins real nice for at least 3 hours:D http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

peterleyenaar
Feb-03-2004, 1:56pm
You all go home now and play your (cheapos or richos) mandolins real nice for at least 3 hours http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

NickelCreeker
Feb-03-2004, 2:10pm
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Oi...

mandoJeremy
Feb-03-2004, 2:11pm
Hey mandojosh, so where would Stephen Gilchrist be without David Grisman, Ronnie McCoury (nice gift David), Adam Steffey, Butch Baldassari, and countless others? The same place Lynn would be without Thile. BTW, I have a friend that has one of the first Gils in this country that he bought from Gruhns and I wouldn't give him over two grand for it except for resale purposes! It sounds like crap! Being a person that has played a LOT of high end mandos myself in my 12 years of playing I do know what is out there and I do know what has it and what doesn't! Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't make them bad. I will repeat: Have you happened to have gotten your hands on a Carl Span mando yet? Probably never will but those who have remember them. Will he ever be known as a Dude or Gil? Probably not but it is by his choice. He doesn't care to build you or me a mando and he doesn't give them away no matter who you are or who you play with. Ask Alan Bibey, he paid for his! How's that Triggs doing?

mandoJeremy
Feb-03-2004, 2:16pm
Also, without Grisman Gilchrist would probably be another small unknown builder but look at what Grisman still plays.....His trusty Gibson!

Don Grieser
Feb-03-2004, 4:53pm
I don't know what you've got against Gilchrist, Jeremy. I feel like I need to bash Gibson now just to get my yin and yang back in balance. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Don't take it personal, BigJoe.

mandojosh
Feb-03-2004, 4:59pm
his trusty 90! year old gibson, age does have an affect on sound, and yes I must agree with you, the older gilchrists are not my cup of tea either, I was speaking strictly of the newer ones. And the triggs sounds great. But that was my point basicaly what you said. Price does not equal sound. #
Nice to hear from ya again Joe, the fern is awesome!
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Josh

Lee
Feb-03-2004, 5:31pm
Look at it this way: If we all played at a level that was worthy of the mandolins we owned, then we'd all be looking to upgrade our mandolins all at once. Just think what that would do to the market price of mandolins!

mandoJeremy
Feb-03-2004, 6:22pm
Hey Don, I don't have anything against Gils! I played the one that Dewey Farmer has (I don't if he still does) and it was a killer! I played the one that The Stringman from Canada had and it was a killer. Go ahead and bash away on the Gibsons, it won't be anything new. Like I have said before, I love my mando and you might hate it but it would be okay with me because I pull the tone that I want out of it. Same as you probably do on your Gil. I used the Gil as a subject for comparison. I also don't have anything against Dudes either. I think they are great mandos for the most part and as you said Josh, it varies with all builders from mando to mando. There is always one GREAT mando out of 5 made and the other 4 are probably still very good.

Chip Gulbro
Feb-03-2004, 11:14pm
Wow! I seemed to have touched a nerve.
Green mando-send me your instruments-I'll make them worthy.
No wimp here Big Joe just an observation and interest.

If the mando market continues its inflated rise in prices only the collectors and foundations will own them. That is exactly the case with fine bowed string instruments. I.E., most pros are playing loaner Strads and Guarneri's. Of course, that took around 200 years for inflation and the fine art market to drive the prices to Mars.
As long as these institutions are generous there is probably nothing to worry about. I am speaking of the pros of which I am not or I'd be too busy to bother with this thread.
I just hope the "cheaper" instruments, of which I own, don't sky rocket as well.

danb
Feb-04-2004, 5:47am
Josh makes a good point, it comes down to individual instruments. How often you play them changes the tone as well. It's sometimes a crapshoot trying a new instrument in a store sometimes, but if you have lots of background with them you can start to hear the potential in them as well.

I've played piles and piles of the old Gibson A's, and most of those were factory produced. They're surprisingly consistent, but then there are the great ones that just knock you off your chair.

I'm playing a Lebeda F5 right now that really knocked my socks off in the shop, next to many instruments that were 3x the price.

The nicest sounding mandolin I've ever played is Dave Firestine's early Nugget A... perhaps my favorite that I've heard played in person is Sharon Gilchrist's Gilchrist F5

At the moment, I think the Rigels & Gibson F5s Charlie & co are making are the most consistently great-sounding instruments that are relatively easy to obtain.

jlb
Feb-04-2004, 8:40am
I just hope the "cheaper" instruments, of which I own, don't sky rocket as well.

How much does an Asian f-style run?

Weber Aspens are like a grand...tell me a Weber Aspen is as or more expensive to produce than a D-15.

Everyone, from bottom to top, is riding this rocket straight up.

nystringer
Feb-04-2004, 11:26am
A quick story. I sold hand built high end bicycles, titanium, carbon fiber etc. Very expensive. Some customers who rode neither well nor often would buy one and I'd somehow feel offended. After all I could outride or outrace any of them and I couldn't afford one of these custom builds. They couldn't possibly apreciate or use one like I could.

Then I rode with some of them.

They were great, hardworking, devoted people. Their greatest talents were probably in their chosen fields of employment (everything from rocket scientist to sanitation engineer) which allowed them to make the money to afford these bikes. As you might guess that same job also left them with little time for other things like bike riding.
It seemed that a custom build allowed them to enjoy their riding time that much more and their ability to be a fast rider had little to do with it.

I found that they would be some of the first to sign up for a charity ride to raise money for a good cause.

Guess what? A lot of them became very good riders.

Dru Lee Parsec
Feb-04-2004, 5:05pm
This is actually a very interesting discussion. #As a fledgling Luthier I thought I'd add my thoughts. #First of all, what something cost should be a result of the raw materials plus the time it takes to produce the product. #So let's think about that for a moment. #Let's say I was born in Southern California (which I was) and that I still live here (which I do). #It's not my fault that I live in one of the higher priced areas of the country. #In fact, "fault" probably isn't even the right word. #It just happens to be that I live in the place where I was born and I happen to live in the area of the country that has 15% of the jobs and 10% of the population.

Before we go into what it takes to pay my house payment and bills (which I realize could be less if I moved away) let's talk about production. #A prolific guitar maker will make around 12 to 18 guitars a year. #25 is a lot, 30 is Really prolific and 40 is a one man factory. #Assume that you only need to make $50,000 a year to survive and you can build 16 of those guitars a year. That means your instruments have to cost $3150 plus the cost of materials. #But that's for guitars. #There are many more guitar players than mandolin players. #Also, in my opinion it's more difficult to make, for example, an F style mandolin than an OM style guitar. #So if we only make 12 mandolins a year (and that seems like a lot of mandolins) then that $50,000 per year salery requires a base price of almost $4200.

But, you not only have to build 12 mandolins, you have to sell them. #That means advertising, shows, festivals etc. #All of which cost money. #It may not be out of range to think that a luthier can spend another $10,000 to $15,000 on these cost AND we still havn't covered the cost of materials. #Let's assume that each mandolin cost only $400 in raw materials (wood, frets, binding, inlay etc). #So now we have $50,000 + $15,000 in advertising cost + $4800 in materials. #That gives us $69,800 divided by 12 instruments for a cost of $5816 per mandolin. #Almost $6000 per instrument and the luthier is only making $50,000 a year. #If I made $50,000 here in Southern California I'd be able to pay for my mortgage, and nothing else.

The good news is that a talented luthier will have a consistency to the quality of his instruments such that they are WORTH $6000 a piece. #Let's use Taylor guutars as an example. I don't mean to beat up Taylor guitars, I'm only using them as an example because they're 4 miles from my house and I'm familier with them. #I've played a Taylor that sounded absolutly amazing. Unfortunatly, all the other Taylors I've played were nice, but not overwhelming. #However, every single hand made guitar I've played has sounded and felt as good or better than the nicest Taylor I've played. #I've been lucky enough to play instruments by Charles Fox, Huss & Dalton, Allan Beardsell, Goodall, and others. #In almost every case the quality of the hand made instrument matched the price point. #In many of the factory guitars I've played (Martin, Taylor, etc) the instrument was nice, but not stunningly good in the way that most hand made instruments were.

So what we really have is a pricing structure that has to :

A: Support the Luthier's lifestyle and
B: Accuratly reflect the Luthier's cost.

And in return for that we get an instrument that is generally at a much higher quality level than a less expensive factory model. #Now, can the people buying those instruments play well enough to perceive the difference in quality? It doesn't matter, because the luthier can't drop his price just because the buyer is not a good enough player to understand the nuances of the instrument.

So a luthier needs to produce at least a mandolin a month and they need to cost at least $6000 each. And for all that work he can afford a frugal middle class lifestyle. #I think that makes hand made instrument prices sound down right cheap.

mandofiddle
Feb-04-2004, 6:46pm
Thanks for that breakdown Dru. I've never thought of it like that. Also, don't forget to add tax on any profit you make... Whats that, at least an additional 15%, though probably more?

Dru Lee Parsec
Feb-04-2004, 7:44pm
Oh my gosh yes. And remember that being self employed means that the luthier pays more taxes than most of us do. He pays all of his health insurence, both sides of his social security, and an additional 15% "Self Employment Tax" just because our country doesn't want us to all go off and become self employed millionares http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Just the standard state and federal taxes in California are about 30% at the $50,000 income level. So even after writing off every bit of advertising expense, travelling, and materials cost it's still not a very comfortable living.

So a self employed $50,000/year income is really quite difficult to live on. Here in California you're pretty much below the poverty level. Don't even THINK of buying a house in this state with that income.

Dang! I'm starting to talk myself out of building instruments. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Michael Lewis
Feb-05-2004, 1:46am
Dru, there is always repair work if you need quicker money. All the good repair people I know are overloaded with work. Also, there is the advent of CNC machining of parts to help make the process of making an instrument more efficient.

cutbait2
Feb-05-2004, 9:01am
Dru, I follow your logic but you've got your economics backwards. You need a demand for your product before you can market it. Which means a long buildup phase before 12 people a year are going to shell out 6k for one of your mando's. Second you can't factor in your desired lifestyle and cost of living and assume everyone else in the world will adjust their prices to your needs. But good luck. BC

Feb-05-2004, 9:22am
Economics is a great topic. #If you took all the economists in the world an put them end to end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion.

Supply and demand are what makes some instruments expensive but supply and demand works on salaries too. #Its easy to slam doctors and lawyers but they get paid so much (and can buy expensive mandolins) because they are supplying something that is not readily available but is in demand. #If we could all consistently make jump shots, pro basketball players would be making minimum wage.

darin
Feb-06-2004, 5:59pm
My first mando was $600.00. #My last one was $6,000.00, and I still suck. #But i still "sound" better playing my more expensive one! #Good enough for me...

mandoJeremy
Feb-06-2004, 11:02pm
My first mando was $115.00 and my last one only contributed to my tone, along with the other 27 to find the tone I wanted! Thanks goes to some of the great builders!