Vintage gibsons

[Fliss]

I'm (hopefully!) going to be in the position later this year to spend around £1500 on my next mandolin. I'm considering a vintage oval hole Gibson. I played some at Tamco last year and particularly loved the sound of the A3.

But I'm uncertain about a vintage instrument as my main mando, I'm not sure I'm qualified to look after one as it deserves! My other option is something new, which has its own appeal (and what? But that's a different question!)

I apologise if this has already been covered, but a search on "vintage Gibson" threw up too many results to be helpful. I did find the archive article on the different models, which was very helpful.

So, please talk to me about the pros and cons of owning a vintage Gibson - What issues might there be? What should I look out for if choosing? What should I be aware of that I mightn't have thought of? etc

Fliss

[fatt-dad]

I've had my A3 for about 20 years. When I got it (from a private party who had it stored in his attic), it needed some seams reglued and I had the neck straightened. I also refretted it. Later in its life a loose brace was found inside the mandolin, which I also had glued. At that time the luthier also noted a gap in a seam, which I had fixed. I think I've had the nut worked on two or three times (long story).

I tell you this just to remind you that these things are old and you don't know how much love they got over the years. You may find one that's been gone over and looks great, but it may have also spent a few years (decades?) in an attic. There is some likelihood that work will be needed over the time you own the mandolin. If you don't know folks to trust to do the repair, it can be frustrating.

Now that I've said all of that, they're great to play, have a sound all their own and truly mark a time in history.

Enjoy the hunt.

f-d

[mythicfish]

Like F-D said ... it's like taking care of your grand-mother.

Curt

[trevor]

Fliss,
Interesting question. I take the view that if its lasted over 80 years why should it have problems just now. On a more practical note I have sold many over the years and not had one back for work yet. My customers know that, even though I don't over a guarantee as such on vintage instruments, they can come back to me and I will look after them if there is a problem, as I say none so far.

Hope this helps

PS Just remembered there was once I refunded a customer when I had just started because I had gotten the description wriong.

[Loren Bailey]

I'll second El-Gordo Pappy; cracks, top/back shrinkage, top sinkage, loose brace, seams, frets, tuners, etc, etc. #

I am about to send mine off to a Gibson expert to have it gone over (probably new nut, bridge, fret job). #Fixed the loose brace myself. #Got it off Eb@y about a year ago. #Sounds good, will sound better with some work. #I knew that going in to the purchase. #If you're prepared to have some work done and don't expect it to be showroom new I don't think you can go too wrong.

There are plenty of really good new oval hole mandos out there, some that capture that old Gibson tone. #However, there is nothing like playing a 90 year old instrument that is oozing with mojo.

You have an excellent resource right there in the UK, DanB. He posts frequently on the board and maintains The Mandolin Archive. #He may even have some background on the mando you're looking at.

Loren

[trevor]

I should have also mentioned that its obviously cheaper to buy on Ebay but if its no good there's not much you can do about it. I once threw one away!! Another was described as in typical condition for its age, photo taken from one side, good feedback, etc. It came with the top caved in on the other side. If it goes back there's two lots of international shipping, if you can get the seller to agree that he/she ripped you off.
Apologies for the plug but buying vintage unseen or from an unknown source is particularly risky.
All mine and other reputable dealers have been checked over and priced (or thrown away) according to condition.

[Loren Bailey]

Trevor, Absolutely agree. I took a gamble, communicated A LOT with the seller, asked for more pics and made him agree on a 48 hour approval. It's always better to walk into a shop and put your hands on it. Some of just don't have great shops like yours within a reasonable distance.

Loren

[Bill Van Liere]

[quote=trevor,Jan. 05 2007, 09:28]Apologies for the plug but buying vintage unseen or from an unknown source is particularly risky.


I agree completely. As an instrument group vintage Gibson A models seem to have the widest range between really good and bad. This should make sense when you consider how long these have been around, which accounts for the condition, (frequently poor and in need) of this instrument group.

I would play it before I entered into any sales agreement.

[Jim Garber]

Fliss:
If you like one at Trevor's shop, go with it. Yes, there are lots on eBay, but as others have mentioned, it is worth it to have the one you are interested in hand to play.

Having said all that, as owner of many vintage Gibson mandolins over the years, I can say they are generally built to last and, for the most part, owners took care of them.

BTW my very first Gibson was a white-faced A3 which I played for many years. My main Gibson now is an A2 snakehead.

Jim

[Ken Sager]

There is a great satisfaction in owning an 86 year old instrument, especially one that is fully playable and sounds good. My '21 A is fun to play, but doesn't get much play any more. I'm absolutely in love with a couple other new instruments I've picked up recently... (rebuilt '39 Stella tenor guitar, Martin 00-28K, Arches F5...)...

Time to thin the herd some more.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Love to all,
Ken

[allenhopkins]

I have a small stable of old Gibsons: 1910 F-2 "3-point," 'teens K-1 mandocello, '50's F-5, and a "recent vintage" (1987) Army-Navy custom. I have used them as I would use any of my newer instruments, with the caveat that I have a good instrument repairman and maintenance shop here in Rochester, Stutzman's Guitar Center (http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com/). The F-2 in particular was my main performance mandolin in my Celtic and klezmer ensembles for over a decade, and it held up very well. There may be a tiny bit of top sinking, but it's well within playable standards. Now I'm using the Gibson "pancake" most of the time for working with singers, etc.

My main piece of advice is to hook up with a repairman you trust, one with experience in mandolins and vintage instruments, get the mando checked frequently, and be a good caretaker of an instrument that you want to outlast you. We are just caretakers of these vintage instruments, and should try to pass them on to their next owners in good playable shape.

[danb]

Oh pooey guys, a vintage mandolin is a great buy. One thing that tends to happen is that new instruments are most often made available with a factory set-up, where a vintage pieces arrive in a variety of conditions and may or may not get set up properly.

The thing about any mandolin really, is that it will sound better or worse depending on if the bridge is in the right spot, the frets are in good condition, the tuners hold properly, the nut should be the right height etc. A new one typically has all new parts, so they are all ready if you take my meaning.

You probably do need to have an eye for this sort of thing. It's pretty easy to have an eye for frets.. nuts & bridges are a little harder.. noticing cracks and seam separations is pretty easy.. but what it comes down to really, is if you see the neck is straight, the parts are there, there are no cracks, the frets look good & the tuners work.. you're probably down to a little setup work on the nut & bridge saddle which isn't a huge amount of work.

But.. if they are in good shape when you get them, they certainly won't start spontaneously erupting unless you abuse them. Once a mandolin is in good working order & set up you can treat it as normal! if it's 100 years old now and in great shape, it's no different in handling than a new one. You are in no extra risk of it exploding suddenly http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[danb]

Plus.. they smell great!

[Eric F.]

Fliss, I've had three vintage Gibsons and had my hands on a whole bunch more. I spent a day in Gruhn's once and played every old A they had. It was a blast, and it really opened my eyes to what a wide range of tone they have.

I got mine through patient stalking on eBay. I got lucky with each of them, but I did what I could to lower the odds in my favor. I had enough photos of each to know the general condition and enough communication with the sellers to have a comfort level. I bought them each at a bargain price, too, or I would not have done it. Unless you're willing to take the chance on getting a clunker, I highly recommend buying from a shop where you can try them.

One thing to keep in mind is that the model number has nothing to do with the quality of the sound. For that matter, the cosmetics don't either. The humble A Juniors and plain A's sometimes sound better than the fancier models.

I currently have a modern oval hole that I think sounds fantastic - but as Loren said, there's nothing like playing a 90-year-old instrument.

Good luck!

[JeffD]

I have a Gibson 1927 A2 snakehead, that I have owned since the mid 1980s. Every scratch and wear mark on it came from me.

It has always been my main mandolin, and often my only mandolin. I have dragged (drug?) that thing all over the world, in no more than its original case.

Recently I replaced the original case, but that is the only work that has ever been done, I have never even had the mandolin set up checked.

I love playing it, have always loved the sound - its no banjo killer but it has that distinctive beautiful Gibson sound. And too I love the feel of the neck - it fits my hand well.

One advantage is that the sound is the sound. In buying a vintage instrument you are buying the sound you hear, not some sound in the distant future when it "opens up". So you know what you are getting.

My instrument has never ever given me trouble or needed anything but a string change and a new case - I can't say that is always true with vintage instruments of course.

The only disadvantage I would say - is that the distinctive Gibson sound is not for everybody, and may not be what you want for some types of music. For example, I might chose a different mandolin for Celtic (if I were a purist).

But for a general all around instrument - if you find one in great shape with a sound you like you will have a mando for life.

[JeffD]

Plus.. they smell great!
Oh, yea I forgot this part. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mike Buesseler]

Not much to add to all these great posts. If I were buying another old Gibson (I play a 1920 plain A that I LOVE), unless it was in perfect playing condition, I would budget for some repairs. Even a new mandolin will eventually need new frets, and a good setup. Once I did all that (and a little more) to my beloved old A, it's been like a sweet old friend...who smells good.

Oh, for what it's worth, I bought a very clean A2-Z once a few years back. This is supposed to be one of the Holy Grails of A model Gibsons. It played well, but was a real dud soundwise, IMO. I traded it for something I liked better. I'll never trade or sell this sweet old plain A model, EVER.

[fatt-dad]

Oh pooey guys, a vintage mandolin is a great buy.
Not to imply otherwise. . . . . However, my story is true - yours may be different. While I doubt my mandolin will spontaneously explode, since I've owned it, there has been some need to do work on it. This need likely stemmed from it's attic residencey. This is my only point, not to scare folks from buying them. Well my real point is to have somebody that you trust look over it, inside and out. (I bought my 1920 whiteface A3 from an 80 year old retired preacher, whose father was the original owner.)

Regarding it as a "good deal". Yeah, when I bought it 20 years ago, it was a great deal and even looking at the repair I've put into it over time, I'm very happy with my "investment". Heck, I could probably sell the tailpiece and the pickguard (fingerrest) for what I have into it - ha.

f-d

[Bill Van Liere]

In my case my 1917 A-1 was a better buy in terms of investment than in usefullness. I paid $200 fot it, about $300 would put it in much better playing shape. It recently appraised for higher than that.

fatt-just got a great new axe-dad, shouldn't you be breaking in some red spruce right now?

[Ray(T)]

Hi Fliss - my 4 penneth for what its worth - I have both, a relatively new mandolin and a vintage one. The new one is great, everything works and its reliable. The vintage one is good to play but I'm always aware that there are issues and issues which will remain if I try to keep it totally original. The tuners - aren't as precise as modern ones which makes quick tuning on stage a bit of a panic - I'm about to try some new ones assuming they will fit! It would be nice to have an adjustable bridge - it has, but I'm about to reinstall the original. I'm sure that there are totally reliable, as new, vintage instruments out there but they're pretty rare (PM me and I'll tell you where there's a very nice one for sale - not a million miles from you - I don't know the price 'cos if I asked I'd probably buy it) If I had to settle for only one instrument, I'd probably go for something new - I'm one of those people who believe that there are modern instruments being made which exceed the quality of the old ones. - Ray

[Fretbear]

I once had a '17 A-0 that I don't miss. Here is another view to consider; the fact that a mandolin is vintage will not make it immune to the same issues that we generally experience, for instance that the mandolin that you have is not the one that you want. If it is an A model like I had, and it cost much less than some other new one could, it's not that big a deal. On the other hand, if it is a lot more expensive, then it becomes very important that you know exactly what you are buying, and of any defects or non-original parts as these will be very important if you ever expect to sell the instrument and recoup your investment.

[acousticphd]

I'm uncertain about a vintage instrument as my main mando

I felt exactly the same way, until a few years ago - I really wanted a Gibson A, wanted one that would be a favorite, but the majority of the ones I had a chance to pick up and try had poor-to-bad playability. #That they have "Lasted for 80 yrs" obviously doesn't mean it's in good shape to pick up and play, and that it will sound good, play well, and be reliable. #

Now I have two, both bought on ebay, both refinished and good deals pricewise. # The first I played for ~a year in the shape I acquired it. #The sound was good, but it was an effort to play the fingerboard, which had more-than-comfortable relief and wear, and the tuners were typically aggravating. #I assumed this was "normal" for an 80 yr old Gibson - it was still better than others I had seen and tried (including a number on the wall in the famous above-mentioned music store) - until I bought my 2nd - which had very good playability (probably due to some previous FB work) and is in fact my main mando. #I think the first would also end up to be nice with several hundred dollars work (refret, plane FB, new bridge). #The main thing I would look for in one I was thinking of buying is a good, straight, flat fingerboard that won't need reworking - or has already had some. #The second thing I would do is if possible buy through a private seller, not a store. #I think that many ordinary vintage mandolins, especially in prominent music stores, ARE in fact pretty overpriced.

I do play some nice modern As as well, but I now appreciate having and playing a couple old ones.

[fatt-dad]

fatt-just got a great new axe-dad, shouldn't you be breaking in some red spruce right now?
(Tuesday the 9th and then I'm onto the red spruce.)

[hanknc]

You'll be eligible to attend the Vintage Gibson Owners Academy where you'll be indoctrinated in Snout Glancing (this will come in handy for those times that some unfortunate tries to hand you a Morgan Monroe or some other lesser quality instrument), Scoffing Authoritatively (this is really handy around the Collings and Weber crowd), Selective Authentic Lick Identification ("well, that's not the way Monroe would have played it") and then of course you'll learn the secret handshake. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So, there is always more to consider than you think. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[JeffD]

You'll be eligible to attend the Vintage Gibson Owners Academy where you'll be indoctrinated in Snout Glancing
Then one day one of those snout glancing gibsonites meets someone playing a Lyon & Healy asymetrical two pointer, with its elegent scroll head, and is told, "Gibson, eh, yea they're nice too."

[Bob A]

Have 2 vintage Gibsons, an F4 and A2Z. F4 has been used a lot, and in the 30 years I've owned it has had two episodes of Shrinking Back Syndrome, repaired fpr 50 bucks total, and a popped transverse brace. A2Z has been played very little, and has no problems./

Bought another F4 thru the Cafe (because it was blonde). My luthier told me the top had been sanded down and was in danger of collapse. Instrument returned to seller.

Have an old Lyon & Healy; back center seam needed regluing. Another cheap repair.

Eventually the F4 will need new frets. So what?

Anyway, Gibsons are the gold standard for US mandolins. If you get a good one you'll never lose money. But they are variable in sound; I'd never get one that I hadn't played, or gotten a 48 hrs approval period for.

[mythicfish]

"Anyway, Gibsons are the gold standard for US mandolins. If you get a good one you'll never lose money. But they are variable in sound; I'd never get one that I hadn't played, or gotten a 48 hrs approval period for."

And if you don't get a good one .... then it's not the "gold standard" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??

Curt

[JGWoods]

I own a few old instruments, used to own even more. I like old ones, I'm old too.
They aren't for everyone.
Having a good repairman around is a great benefit.
Knowing how to do simple repairs helps- setting the bridge in the right place, file fret ends, remove, replace or clean, and reinstall tuners, etc. If this stuff is easy enough or interesting enough you are good to go.

Some adaptability in your playing helps- if you can only play your own mandolin when it is set up just right and can't adapt easily to one with different action etc. then you might not love the old instruments.
I play banjos with 27" scales, Mandolins with 13" scales as well as the 14". high action, low action, narrow neck, wide neck, it's all ok with me after a few minutes.

I also have 1 each new guitar, mando, and banjo
I love the old ones, but I don't have to depend on them.

[danb]

Curt, even the ones that aren't "good" are pretty good.. pretty much all of them will set up so that the notes are balanced, they intonate properly, and they feel right under the fingers. Beyond that you get into the subjective world of tone, where one man's mellow soulful F4 is another man's wimpy chop, etc. I've had my fingers in a lot of these pies, and I don't think I've ever come accross one that I didn't want to play for a while to see what it could do. With modern ones, I find it much more hit & miss, wheras there is a baseline you can expect from an old Gibson in decent condition.

[trevor]

Dan,
I agree, I've probably had over a hundred through the shop. Never had one I didn't like or wouldn't be happy take home. Yes they vary, I liked and like some more than others but if I chose my favourite and least favourite somebody else would have it the other way round.

[Bob A]

What I meant, Curt, is that the Gibson instruments pretty much define what we in the USA think of as a mandolin. You'll have noted that makers copy them, both here and overseas, and that many people prefer them to the copies. Prices have never gone down on these instruments, at least as long as I've been looking.

Not every one is above average, of course. They are factory-made, after all, even though mass production does help in turning out a consistent product. People talk about the "Gibson sound", whatever that may be, and argue and whine about the Gibson company and its policies.

And if you don't get a good one, you can still sell it for what you paid, pretty much . . . maybe even more. Because it's a Gibson. Because it's the Gold Standard for American mandolins.

[hanknc]

"Not every one is above average, of course. "

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

hmmm...it's gettin' deep!

[Jack Roberts]

Plus.. they smell great!
Mine smells like a tomcat pissed in an ash try. Every time I take it out of the case I wonder if we are under chemical weapon attack.

But I love the sound.

Jack

[Jim Garber]

Mine smells like a tomcat pissed in an ash try. Every time I take it out of the case I wonder if we are under chemical weapon attack.
I had my snakehead in its original case for many years and because of my vintage stubbornness, felt I had to use that case. Every time I took it out to play, I would start hacking so I didn't play it much. I also tried to de-mold the case with every sort of method but to no avail. Finally i bought my main Gibson a nice new TKL case and we are now happy.

Jim

[fatt-dad]

smells like a tomcat pissed in an ash try
I'm going to use this. . . .

Thanks!

f-d

[Dave Hanson]

Go for it Fliss, you won't regret it, I bought my 1917 A from The Music Room in Cleckheaton just over a year ago and I love it.

Dave H

[mandroid]

The 21 A I got in the mid 80's #has been fine , apart from sweaty polarfleece #making a spot of #the varnish on the back look a bit worse for the contact, It has served well.
a few years back I got a friend for it, an A4 from the same production #year, both were shop walk in buys.

Now the relatively recent Lebeda joined those for all the f5 neck benefits
plus gloss lacquer that wont soften when the player is ridden hard and put away wet.

[Fliss]

Wow, thanks for all your comments everyone, that's very helpful and informative.

I understand they can vary a lot, so I'd really want to try before buying. And although it can be possible to get bargains on e-bay, but you have to know what you're doing and / or be prepared to take a gamble, which I'm not keen to do with this. So if I buy a vintage Gibson, it's almost certainly going to be from a reputable dealer such as Trevor.

I have a vintage instrument already, a 1902 De Meglio bowlback, and I do worry about it, even though it doesn't owe me a lot. I'm not aware of a repairperson nearby who specialises in Gibsons, but again, buying from someone like Trevor would give me some back up.

Hmm, I must confess it had never occurred to me to sniff a mando... be assured I will now do so before buying http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyway, that gives me plenty of food for thought, thanks. I'm going to plan a trip to Brighton and a few other places over the next few months to try out more mandos, so I'll let you know how I get on http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Fliss

[mandolooter]

I've had my fingers in a lot of these pies, and I don't think I've ever come across one that I didn't want to play for a while to see what it could do.

This is SO true with me too!
I bought my butt-ugly 100 year old Gibson A off Ebay, had never heard it and seller didnt know a thing about it or mandos in general either, just needed money and had inherited it from a family member. We talked and I bought. Turned out to be a GREAT sounding A and after fret job and some repair work that I did myself its good to go for the next hundred years...the majority of which I plan to be picking it! The action is a tad high as ya get up the fretboard but thats not a huge issue since im not up past the 15th very often.

Bottom line...I think for the price, resale value and tone these old Gibsons are still one of the real values of the mandolin world! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dan Adams]

I have two; a 16 and a 17. No structural problems other than some neglect. One is mint, and the other looks like it was dragged behind the horse buggy on the way to market the livestock. Both sound great and are a real easy to play. Now if that's not what a good insturment is about.... Dan