Please help me determine what this mandolin is

[shinejar]

I recently recieved this mando and am having difficulty trying to find out about it's origins and age. Any info one might have regaurding this would greatly be appreciated.Thanks in advance.

-Peace
Davis

[shinejar]

Here is the front....

[Jim Garber]

First, do you have a few more pics of this mandolin? Is it a bowlback or flatback? The tuners seem to resemble ones on an unlabelled german bowlback (see attached). Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the other jpegs in order to id it. I will look further.

Jim

[RLPOOL]

Judging from the pink ribbon, I think it's French

[Jim Garber]

It looks like there is some words imprinted on the back plate of both tuners. Can you read what it says? At least we could determine something about these strange tuners.

Jim

[shinejar]

Yes Jim, There are words... "PATENT RIGHTER" and nothing else, no numbers anyway. I do have another pic although, there is no label, stamp, or other identifying marks.
It has a bowl back(with little damage as you see), and the inside is completly covered with a brown paper of some sort.

to me this looks like umm scruggs tuners or keith tuners for a mandolin! but the old style.
looks like you can easily cross tune the mando or something to that effect, or play earls breakdown like buzz.

or they could just be extra fancy... or over engineered.. or maybe it somehow affects the sustain?
sometimes the saying "they dont make em like they used to" applies. i mean, my friend had an antique paper clasp thing, you know the kind with a magnet on the back, but this thing had ball bearings in the axis, giving it seriously smooth action for a paper clip... they sure dont make those anymore!

[shinejar]

Thanks for the post.
I'll search those tuner brands you mentioned. I just took the thing to Nashville at the Gruhn Guitar shop and the mando dealer there had never seen them before. He did date it to at least prior to the turn of the century though. He also said he beleived it to be of german origins. I just got a dental mirror tool and I'm going to try to look at the underside of the top for a marking or number.
Can't wait to restring this thing! ...or at least hang it on the wall.
(Maybe I need to take it to one of those antique road shows)

[JeffS]

Judging from the pink ribbon, I think it's French
I hope none of the French readers here are offended by your jab at their nationality.

[Jim Yates]

How could a colour be an insult to their nationality?...and why would a pink ribbon indicate French?
I guess both of these comments went right over my head.

[Jim Garber]

I'll search those tuner brands you mentioned. I just took the thing to Nashville at the Gruhn Guitar shop and the mando dealer there had never seen them before. He did date it to at least prior to the turn of the century though. He also said he beleived it to be of german origins. I just got a dental mirror tool and I'm going to try to look at the underside of the top for a marking or number.
Can't wait to restring this thing! ...or at least hang it on the wall.
(Maybe I need to take it to one of those antique road shows)
No way these are Scruggs or Keith tuners. Thhose were meant for the 5-string banjo and were invented (I think) prob in the 1960s. I think lemonhilljohn is just saying that they resemble those.

Most folks in the US including very knowledgeable vintage experts (and the Antiques Roadshow) know virtually nothing about old bowlbacks. Most bowlbacks of the general body design are easily dated to around the turn of the last century.

I did alert a few folks I know in Europe about this including one who deal a lot in german bowlbacks.

I would be careful about restringing this mandolin without getting those cracks fixed. In any case, I would use ultra-light strings like GHS 240s (http://www.juststrings.com/ghs-a240.html).

Jim

[Rick Turner]

It looks like the lever arms with the rollers act as brakes on drums under the bracket through which the tuner posts are sticking up. I would guess that when there is little or no string tension on, the friction on the pegs is very low, and the closer to pitch you get the things, the higher the friction would get in a kind of progressive action. You've still got the issue of 1:1 direct drive tuners, but the holding friction would be proportional to the string tension. Weird, kind of brilliant, and maybe not totally helpful!

[glauber]

I think the idea may have been keeping the angle of the string on the nut constant, no matter how many turns you wrap on the post.

Nobody commented on the brown paper lining in the bowl. I think being lined like that is a common thing with bowlbacks.

[Martin Jonas]

I think the idea may have been keeping the angle of the string on the nut constant, no matter how many turns you wrap on the post.
Yes, I think that may well be the case. I also suspect that the tuners are intended to make the strings go in a straight line through the nut. If so, they are installed wrongly, as they have replaced the normal outward bend with an inward bend at the nut. Somewhat similar idea, but differently implemented, on the attached plan, whih I posted some months ago here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=35068;hl=bmg), and where the purpose is explicitly given as "straight line stretching".

Martin

[shinejar]

Wow, did not expect so much respoonse so quickly, I like it. This has been most helpful, please keep them coming. Finding out about this mandolin has become quite the chour.(fun, but work non the less)
No, I think you right, I will wait till repairs on back are complete before any restinging is done.
The case it came in is pretty neat too(I'll post a pic later today). It's like a burlap material sewn as a custom gig bag of sorts with a leather handle. Although, this might be more common than those funky tuners that has everyone baffled.
As I said I thought the tuners were odd. ...and like several dealers have told me, rare does not equal valuable.
Thanks for the posts.
-Peace

[Jim Garber]

A regular dealer on German eBay just posted this photo. He is actually selling a disc of his collection one of which has tuners like this one. The listing is here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120071972155&indexURL=2#ebayphotohosting).

Jim

[Bob A]

An almost indecently shocking coincidence, finding two examples of such an oddball arrangement in the same week. I can safely say that I've never seen anything like these tuners, ever, before this thread.

Wow, Jim, nice find!

Should I comment on the brown paper? Why not, it's late and I'm not tired. Ive seen bowlbacks lined with all sorts of paper - I have a fancy one lined with gilt paper, in fact. But the ones that are lined with thin shavings of wood make the most sense to me, even though they're pretty well limited to Roman bowlbacks, especially Emberghers and their derivatives. I recall being surprised at this; not it seems commonplace. How jaded I've become. But I can still be stimulated by stuff like these tuners, so there's hope for me yet.

[Jim Garber]

I just heard from the seller of that CD which I will prob buy.


Those tuners are german patent by Richter. If you buy the CD ROM, I will send you the patent information!

More info to come, eh? That doesn't tell us the brand of the mandolin but confirms the German part. It is like Waverlies or Klusons that were used on many American brands.

Jim

[RLPOOL]

Found this on Google Patents. There are numerous mandolin related patents on this site.

[RLPOOL]

I'll try it again

[Jim Garber]

What is the patent number? I was on there last night looking for the same thing. I would like to see the description to see what these were suppose to accomplish.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Never mind I found it under Johannes Richter (the inventor) and mandolin. Here is the full description.

Evidentally those rollers are to guard against detuning, tho in a geared tuner I would not think you would have such a problem and certainly by 1922 geared tuners were pretty sophisticated.

In any case, we now now know that the mandolin in question was prob not built before 1922, or else had these tuners put on later and that the tuners are German, for sure.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is a full image of the drawing page also showing how the keys fit into the tensioning device.

Jim

[Rick Turner]

Bingo, just what I said...tuners with brakes...

[Jim Garber]

So, these tuners were definitely made by Richter. Christian, the owner of a few Richter tuner-equipped mandolins says that Richter just made the tuners but that they appear on various instruments.

Here is yet another example on a German pocket mandolin.

Jim

[dave17120]

And here is a set from my workshop awaiting cleaning and restoration.......... thought it might be interesting to see a photo of them disassembled. Quite tricky in fact, the whole of the central spindle has to be tapped out of the collar, otherwise you can't get it off the instrument..... a down-side perhaps.
This set is off a mando that could almost be the twin of the one at the top, right down to the huge split in the side.
Regards, Dave

[Rick Turner]

Putting new brake shoes on them?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[dave17120]

Very good........... made me chuckle anyway.
But I doesn't seem to have been driven too hard, no real wear apparent at all. If there was, where would I get a set anyway?
Dave

[Jim Garber]

where would I get a set anyway?
Germany, I would say. I think these may be more common than we think.

Jim