Yet another glue question...

[jackofall]

I got a StewMac Campfire kit from my wife for Christmas, and I'd like to know what you experienced builders recommend as the best glue to go with.

Bear in mind that I'm a total beginner, and a clumsy idiot. I have a minuscule budget and no specialist experience or tools. No heated glue-pots here...

I have done the usual search through the forums for glue topics, and all I am sure of is that there are some very strong opinions! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I see Titebond Original, and Titebond Liquid Hide Glue are both readily available here in the UK. Any good?

A bit of guidance here, please?

Ta very much, in advance. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Rick Turner]

Hot hide glue would probably be best, but there's a learning curve and you have to really prepare for the glue-ups and move quickly. LMI white glue is good; we use it a lot in my shop. Stay away from any of the "liquid hide glue" products, and for a first instrument, Original TiteBond is probably your best bet, though do understand that it does "cold creep"...that is it slowly moves under years of tension.

[jackofall]

LMI white glue? Whassat?

(In case you couldn't tell, I'm not a woodworker or luthier...)

Thanks for the reply.

[Kirk Albrecht]

LMI is the acronym for Luthier's Mercantile International, a great source for building tools, etc. Just google them and find the white glue they sell.

[jackofall]

Ah ha! Of course.

Done. Thanks, Kirkola! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hans]

For a campfire mandolin just use Titebond. Thousands of instruments have been built using it. Works just fine. Stay away from Titebond liquid hide glue.

[Tebbie bear]

Stay away from Titebond liquid hide glue.
Any specific reason why? i ask because i just used this glue to for the fretboard on an emando i am building, should i not have?

[Dale Ludewig]

Because it has a reputation of not holding very well over time.

[Bill Snyder]

Stay away from Titebond liquid hide glue.
Any specific reason why? i ask because i just used this glue to for the fretboard on an emando i am building, should i not have?
Here is a link (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=16568;hl=liquid+hide+gl ue) to more information on the liquid hide glue.

[jackofall]

If the amateur builders will indulge me, Hans has me wondering how the pro's will answer this one...

So, professional builders, Titebond or LMI white for a beginner who wants to do a good job (assuming that I am REALLY not ready or equipped for real hide glue)?

Thanks for all the input so far http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Rick Turner]

Well, I qualify as a pro, and that's what I said, and I'm sticking to it.

I've talked to some pros who do not like the LMI stuff, but we've used it here on hundreds of instruments with nothing but just fine, trouble-free results. I trust that it will prove trouble-free way down the line as well. I believe (though I've not personally tested) that it takes a bit more heat than Titebond will, though as we recently found out, 140 degrees in a hot car isn't great for the LMI glue. That was on a uke whose bridge was pulling off the the top warping. I can say that even though the bridge was lifting, I had a devil of a time getting it the rest of the way off. At any rate, the folks at LMI have done their research on that particular glue, and it's really good stuff and no more expensive, really, than Titebond.

If you are going to use Titebond, though, absolutely do not use anything other than the original formula unless you want a nice waterproof elastic mess.

[Bill Snyder]

Check the date code on the Tightbond as well. Really should be used within a year. For no more than it costs it is not worth using old glue.
Titebond stamps a code on their glue bottles. The first character, a number, is the year it was made, the second character, a letter, is the month (A= January, B=February, etc.).

[Michael Cameron]

Rick Turner says: "hide-glue is probably best"...(esp. for a newby)but building what I see as primarily(maybe 99.9%?) electric instruments,ukuleles being the only acoustic instruments you build?(I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong),Rick,I have to wonder,among other things,how much hide-glue do you use/have you used;and on what instruments?
# You begin the film clip on your website mentioning "acoustic" guitars all the while an obviously boinky-sounding(IMHO) electric is playing in the background.....if that guy who was playing thinks that he was sounding like a D-28 he is very mistaken.
# #No acoustic instruments made by you(LET ALONE MANDOLINS!?) are to be heard;not even the ukulele that was SHOWN was even strummed( I wanted to hear it!!). The little boy #just talked about how you put a carbon fiber thingy in the neck of the uke to keep it from buzzing. Sounds pretty silly to me.There just ain't that much pressure from 4 nylon uke strings. Ukes don't need carbon fiber reinforced necks to keep em from buzzing.
# # I agree you are a "pro";but not in the acoustic world,right? #Am I missing something here?

[jackofall]

Well, I qualify as a pro, and that's what I said, and I'm sticking to it...
Doh, I didn't phrase that well, did I?

Apologies, Rick. I know that! I've seen the interesting range on your website.

I just meant to try to get some of the other serious, experienced builders to chip in with their takes on it.

It probably seems daft for a newbie with a Campfire kit to be looking for advice from pros, but I intend to take it further once I have the basics down, and I figure you start as you mean to go on... doing the best job you can.

[Links]

Catfish:

What the he## have you been smoking? Nothing personal, just curious!

[Hans]

Lookit, we don't need posts like this...on either side. Also, this ain't no Loar we'se talkin' about. Titebond regular will do nicely. Use hot hide if you care to...that's fine too. Titebond liquid hide works good on postage stamps. I have had one experience with LMI white, and the instrument fell apart after about a year. Seems started opening up. Granted it probably was a bad bottle, but I won't use it again. Ended up sawing the instrument in half.

[Antlurz]

Nobody has mentioned the third Titebond option. Titebond II. DON'T use it! Use the ORIGINAL formula. (Red label, not blue label)

That is, unless you primarily intend to play the campfire in the rain all the time.

The original Titebond formula is the one you want.

Ron

[Michael Cameron]

Dear Message Board members,please accept my sincere apology;Hans is right,my rude post wasn't no part of nothin'.
# Rick,please forgive my ignorant meanderings. Blonde Lebanese hash and malt liquor and public missives are just a bad combo.
Won't happen again. Promise.
# I hope I have not jeopardized my priviledges to post here.

[Rick Turner]

If you like to read Fretboard Journal, you'll know a lot more about the acoustic side of me in a few months. They're doing a major photo essay on my approach to building acoustic guitars...which I've been doing for quite some time, though, to be fair, it's not what I've been known for. Also, here's a link to an interview I did with American Lutherie that was published in the Winter 2000 issue featuring one of my acoustics on the cover of the magazine:

http://www.renaissanceguitars.com/interview.html

Then there's the fact that I've helped to teach about fifty people to build mandolins...

So you may find that I actually am quite qualified to talk glue here, and yes, I use hot hide glue along with about seven or eight other adhesives in my shop. I'm a gluebie, not a newbie...

Apology accepted...

[jackofall]

A nicely phrased apology, and an acceptance that clears up any gaps in our knowledge of credentials. Nice going, guys. ;)

And I just ordered some Titebond Original (red label!)

All's well that ends well, eh? Thanks everyone!

[Links]

Catfish - Please accept my apology too, but please no more hash and malt liquor while posting! Just kidding, of course!

[Michael Cameron]

No worries,mate!

[John Bertotti]

I'm not qualified but I will say using hide glue wasn't nearly as hard as people made it sound. You just have to be prepared. Know exactly what your about to do, do a few dry runs and have everything sorted and laid out so it is quick to hand. If you stumble along the was it is fixable. If you take to long you can easily fix it also. If what you did is questionable pull it apart clean it up and do it again.

[Michael Cameron]

I think it was Don MacRostie,a true hide-glue miester,said "you have to be hot" to work the stuff. I can just see him bending down under an array of heat lamps placing tone bars, poppin sweat. His Red Diamond mandos are consistently wonderful. (I have #61 and #149). When the hide-glue goes from the hotpot out into cool air it starts to get a film on the outer surface(not good). That's pretty much everything I know about it except that a whole bunch of awesome-sounding older instruments were made with it,possibly even Loars.
# I wonder how many violin makers use Tite-Bond or similar aliphatic(?) glues? #I hear that a lot of furniture makers swear by it!
Sheesh,I'm an "acoustic" snob AND a glue fundamentalist.
Happy New Year

[Dennis Russell]

I have some VHS instructions with Don McRostie and Dan Erliwine building a Herring bone guitar. he said these are the glues I like to use, Hot hide glue was shown, and tightbond, and original formula and some super glues were also used. I want to know what Original Formula is? most of the time he used tightbond to glue things up especially the bracing on one of the plates and original formula on the other,, wich one is right? I use Tight bond, but I use hot hide glue only on violins, but I have a freind who has built over fifty violins in his life time, he says he uses tightbond on the neck joint where it is glued to the body. and Recently started to use two part weldwood cement on the neck joints,, he said he never had a return they stay together quite well. Dennis In Arizona

[Rick Turner]

Ahh, yes, Weldwood. Let's hope nobody has to disassemble that fiddle in a hundred years because of something completely else. Jeez, he ought to use a high frequency glue curing machine and sterilize himself as he builds unrepairable instruments at the same time. He could get nice four minute glue joints that way, and he will hopefully be dead before the warranty work comes back to haunt him!

I'd do laminations with "permanent" glues like that, but I'd never put a neck on that way except on a solid body electric. Sorry, but there's not much thought going on there...Just my opinion, which, as you've noticed, I'm not afraid to give!

Somehow the idea of building un-repairable instruments just bothers me...

[Dennis Russell]

<post removed by moderator for violation of the board posting guidelines (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=23&t=13100).>

[John Bertotti]

Discussion is good but these posts are the reason I pop in here only once a month or so. Sad very sad.

[Paul Hostetter]

Oh, it's OK for repairing cracked engine blocks, in a pinch. Or as a thickener in soups.

Dennis - Rick's definitely no blowhard, certainly not a sarcastic know-it-all, and you do him great wrong by accusing him of that. He never besmirched your superannuated pal. He just talked about glues. He knows a lot about glues, among other things, and he's made a whole lot more instruments in his sweet young life than your guy in Washington managed in his 98 years. Perhaps to you living 98 years confers something more than having lasted that long. That's your opinion and I guess I’m only pointing you back to your own ideas. Choosing to take the advice of someone who used Weldwood because he had "had several problems" with real hide glue over someone with Rick's credentials and experience tells me you may need to rethink your criteria for advice sources.

I see no place whatsoever for Weldwood in lutherie, period. None.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Hans]

Sad. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[jackofall]

So, Weldwood's out then? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Dennis Russell]

<post removed by moderator for violation of posting guidelines (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=23&t=13100).>

[blacksmith]

Just thought I'd stick my oar in here, try to get the boat in a different direction mabe. What about this Gorilla Glue that's come out? Is it suitable for instruments or any parts thereof? What type of glue would they use on an acoustic guitar's bridge? My Gibson J45's bridge has been glued for about 30 years without lifting, yet if it has to be reset for any reason apparently it's not that difficult to get off. Thanks for any input.

[Bill Snyder]

For a qucik look at the pros/cons of using various glues in luthiery take a look at the very bottom of This Page. (http://mimf.com/minifaq.htm) This is by no means the final say on glue, but it does cover some of the basics about several glues properties and what they are good for and not so good for.

[Paul Hostetter]

I think the MIMF list is almost dangerous in its equivocations, omissions and general short-sightedness. OK, I'll say it: some of it is simply wrong. I don't know who compiled it or what their information sources could have been, but it's why I avoid MIMF. Anyway, Gorilla glue, like Pro-Bond, Shoe-Goo, Titebond II/III and some others of that ilk (oh yeah, and Weldwood) are just not appropriate for instrument building. They're not even very useful for making jigs. They might be approriate for repairing the Adirondack chair in the yard under the snow all winter, but that's about it.

Gluing guitar bridges? Gibson and Martin (among others) have been using aliphatics (Titebond 1 or Elmer's Yellow, which MIMF somehow believes are different) for years. Before that they used heated hide glue. All are reversible if necessary and work fine. I think there's no compelling need for a new and different glue for jobs like this. LMII's white aliphatic is just a nice new flavor of Titebond. Rick really likes it. It didn't strike me as so suchamuch, but I'll have to give it another try.

[Mario Proulx]

Dennis, you keep forgetting about future repairs. We have adhesives today that are stronger than strong. GM has been -GLUING- the doors onto its cars and trucks for nearly 20 years, for example. But using that stuff on an instrument would be insane! We need to take these things apart to repair them. What if the violin(s) your buddy glued with the Weldwood gets dropped ad the neck is broken? We can't remove the neck any longer, to replace it, so now we have the open up the entire instrument and chisel it out, piece by piece. What if we used this glue to glue down a guitar's bridge, and a few years later, the bridge split? Only recourse is the machine off the bridge, but we'd also have to machine off some of the top's wood, to have a good clean wood-to-wood join for the new bridge.

See where this leads? Those are just a couple of examples.

Using permanent glue on a instrument is the exact same thing as welding your car's wheels onto the hubs instead of using bolts. Sure, the suckers won't come loose when you least expect it, but you also won't get them off when it's time to replace them, or change a flat on the interstate. Not smart, now, is it?

Don't diss Rick for saying it like it is; he's right, all the way.

Blacksmith, Gorilla glue is a polyurethane glue, and these are permanent glues, meaning they don't respond to moisture or heat, so these, also, can't be repaired. They have a few good uses in lutherie(permanent laminations, carbon fiber to wood joints, etc...), but definitely not good for general instrument use.

[Scott Tichenor]

I'll remind the participants here that intentional flaming, profanity and religious references, even when blocked are in violation of our posting guidelines. Further evidence of that may put future participation here at risk here. That's the choice you'll need to make. Spirited discussion and disagreement I don't have a problem with, the rest of it can be taken elsewhere.

[Mario Proulx]

Paul, I just looked-over the MIMF's glue chart for the first time, and it's fine. What do you see wrong with it? It states the reasons to NOT use the stuff you mention; methinks you just mis-read it.

here's what you just wrote: Anyway, Gorilla glue, like Pro-Bond, Shoe-Goo, Titebond II/III and some others of that ilk (oh yeah, and Weldwood) are just not appropriate for instrument building.

But in the MIMF chart, these glues are not suggested for lutherie use, and their use is discouraged. They're saying the same thing as you....

The MIMF "somehow thinks" that regular Elmer's yellow is bad because a good many of us(myself and others) have had failures with it. In colder climates, it can go chalky and lose its strength. There are a lot of cabinet makers in my parts(including many in my family), and they have also seen the chalky issues. It's fine if we buy fresh in late summer and use it right away(the cured joints are unaffected by cold), but if the bottle was exposed to even one cold cycle, it goes to pot. Problem is, we never know what warehouse(s) it's been in before reaching our stores. Now, Elmer's yellow Pro Bond is fine, and can take a few cold cycles as well as Titebond.

[blacksmith]

Thanks, M. Proulx, where in N. Ont are you located?

[Mario Proulx]

My Name's Mario <g> For some reason, I lost my login with my full name,and had to re-sign using my initial...

I live on Big Nellie Lake. Closest town that would be on a map would be Timmins... Santa Clause lives down the road a little ways from us...

[Mario Proulx]

And thanks to Scott, my login name is now correct!

What a cool place to hang out in...!

[Paul Hostetter]

Hi Mario -

I am pressed for time right now, I'll go into that MIMF list in detail as soon as I get a chance.

http://www.lutherie.net/mandolin.clock.jpg

[markishandsome]

I was puting on some wood binding a few weeks ago using titebond. No matter how long i left it taped on or how nicely the binding fit in the channel, the very ends of the binding would always pop up after a few days, and quickly take the next few inches with them http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

In a huff of frustration I put a dot of Gorrilla Glue under the very end of the binding stips to hold them down. Is there a better way, probably. Will i regret it later if i ever want to rebind? Maybe. I only used a little dot on a face grain to end grain join, so i don't think it'd be too hard to get off.

I also use it to keep my files in their handles http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[sunburst]

Mark, there's something wrong with your Titebond. Better get a new batch.

If you ever decide to re-bind, you'll be cutting the old wood binding out anyway, so you won't really care what's holding it in.

[Antlurz]

Now, Elmer's yellow Pro Bond is fine, and can take a few cold cycles as well as Titebond.
.

Assuming this statement is authorative, I've got a recently purchased bottle of the Titebond that was accidently left overnight in the car after it's purchase. It got down to about 29 that night, so I replaced the new bottle and decided I'd keep the first one for less critical uses.

Would you not be hesitant to use the first one in a lutherie situation if you had a replacement?

I guess I'm wondering about your conviction in that statement. I really, really hate wasting something that is still usable, but a bottle of glue is too cheap to make a mistake on a hand carved mando.

Ron

[Mario Proulx]

Correct, if I have a choice, I'd get another. In fact, it's why I'm using nearly 100% hot hide glue for my instruments, and why I have a barrel of hide glue, enough to likely last my entire career.

My Titebond or ProBond is purchased in late summer, with a build date(learn to decode their codes by calling them) no earlier than May of the year, so tha I am sure it has never frozen or been exposed to cool temps. But I know enough folks who've left their Titebond and ProBond yellow in the cool a time or two and didn't have issues, and these are bthe same folks who also had the chalking issue. I also don't use either of these if they're over a yea old, and give my old bottles to the local woodworkers, and they don't have problems, and always love to see me show up wit a couple unopened bottles of glue. But we're more careful than they are, for good reasons.

When in doubt, toss the bottle, or write "jig glue" on it, and replace it.

[Antlurz]

I'm the same way about pitching it after it approaches a year old.

Ron

[Dennis Russell]

I read the rules that Scott posted, my apologies,, but I am not going to lay down and be a door mat for someone to just walk on me.. I get the feeling that you proffesionals are all backing each other no mattr what. I asked a simple question and I get flamed for it, I make a simple proposal of futuristic craftmanship on musical instruments and I get criticised. but if anyone else out there as a proffesional does anything no one say diddly and that last word isnt a cuss word.
I asked a question about How come Don MacRostie and Dan Erliwine made a video a while back from Stewart MacDonalds Guitar Shop, he said he uses Tight bond, and had a big bottle right in plain view, uses hot hide glue, showed the heater and the bottle with hot hide glue in it, then showed this super glue stuff and the one I asked about called "Original Formula" what ever it is,, what is original formula? that is all I asked and I got torched for saying anything or asking.. Must be Ok if Don Mac rostie does it but let some amateur like me or wannabe do it and they get flamed,,, the old saying OK for me and not OK for you,,, I see a lot of builders use tightbond, I didnt care if it creeps, I am not a nit picker,, I never had any problems with it. in fact a old furniture repairman here in town uses it and said he has a formula for making up that helps soften tite bond and makes it easy to remove without damaging the surrounding wood. he use a concoction using meat tenderizer so many parts water and white vinegar, he claims it works well with other glues also,, so what is the problem.........I am not a pro so I havent anything to say about it,,, is that it,,,,,,,,,Happy new year cheers and all that....Dennis in Arizona

[buddyellis]

What about this Gorilla Glue that's come out?
Gorilla Glue sucks. It might be good if your wood joints suck and you can't cut a clean line, and love scraping stuff after you glue it, but otherwise it seeps and expands till it squeezes outside of your glue joint in a puffy nasty balloon and you have to scrape or cut it off after curing. Better to use any standard epoxy IMO, I'll never touch that #### (or any other 'polyurethane glue' again.

-b (said after gluing his table leg together with it (and it was a sloppy joint he didn't make, after it failed the first time, too))

P.S. Dennis R:

Some have flamed you, but gluing a neck on any instrument with a non-reversible glue is a big-a$$ no-no. Eventually that instrument will probably need a neck reset; use something that some water and heat will reverse. If your luthier bud doesn't understand that then I'm not sure how much faith I put in him. Even a neophyte builder such as myself understands that much.

Sorry..

[Mario Proulx]

Dennis, nobody flamed you, and nobody's attacking you. we are simply trying to stop the mis-truths you are spreading about glues. If someone on this forum took your advice to assemble a mandolin, from scratch or from a kit, they would have a pretty mandolin, for a little while, until it failed. we are trying to do a service here! We can assemble a mandolin with glue made from flour mixed with water, and it will work great, for a little while, but we don't want instruments to remain playable for just a year or two, do we?.

Instruments are not furniture, and the glue requirements are completely different. Instruments MUST remain rigid, while furniture actually benefits from glue joints that allow a little movement. The needs are completely different. Please, stop with the nonsense!

Buddy, poly glues don't have to be messy, and they are less tolerant of a poor joint than even Titebond. The foaming is a chemical reaction, but serves no gap-filling purposes. And cleanup is a breeze, even easier than Titebond type PVA glues. The trick is to use no more glue that you need, and no more moisture than needed to kick it(we don't need the dripping wet joints of Norm Abram <g>). Use just enough of each, let it dry before touching it, ad the foam will sand(without gumming your paper)or scrape beautifully. I Use poly glues to joint most of my RW guitar backs, and have done s for 8-9 years(with zero failures, I may add). I am in the process of jointing a bunch right now, so I just went into the shop, took some photos, and made a page to show how neat and clean it really is, when used correctly. For joints such as this, which have no reason to ever be taken apart, this glue is ideal. But don't use it for tops, as it leaves a slightly tan-colored line at times.

Here's the page. (http://www.proulxguitars.com/clients/mandolins/poly_glue.htm)

[markishandsome]

Anyone else got deja vu?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Dennis Russell]

Iam not spreading mistruths about glue,, you are putting words in that did not use like this poly glues two part stuff whatever it is, I asked a question and I still cannot get a correct answer,, the question is how come you proffesionals back each others stories but if some jhonny come lately like me comes along and makes a statement that could be true if you checked it out instead of shooting it down.
Oh no that wont work we are traditionalist, I asked a question how come Don McRostie and Dan Erliwine in their video,, building a herring bone steel string guitar, show a bottle of titebond, a jar of hot hide glue , some type of glue called original formula whatevr that is and super glue...silly myths,, not so I know builders that use other adhesives besides hide glue,, There is a fellow here in this town that went to Roberto Venn school of lutherie up in Phoenix he said they used tite bond and other adhesives,, I think Roberto Venn school is sponsored by Fender Guitar,, what you say about that.. There is more but it is a waste of time, you guys all are in a click and I am a outsider , just like some musicians I know they dont want anyone outside that is new that might know a new trick or some technique, it might show them up.
I notice something here,, Musicians are tempermental just like a few so called luthiers, I am writting a book on it called Mad Musicians and the such.. have a happy new year...................D

[Rick Turner]

I hear a Warren Zevon song here, but it's up to you all to figure out which one. Hint...Linda Ronstadt covered it...

Secrets? No, we're all telling exactly what we use and why. Titebond? Yes, there are hundreds of thousands of instruments made with it. And you have all the repair issues happening daily. Why is it that many guitars put together with Titebond seem to need neck resets sooner than ones made with hot hide glue? Why is it that bridges pop off at a lower temperature on Titebond glued guitars? Why are professional luthiers so concerned with the need to disassemble and repair broken instruments?

And, by the way, I don't necessarily agree with everybody's assessment of some of the more permanent glues. I use Franklin's polyurethane glue for some fingerboard glue joints and I can remove a fingerboard if necessary. I also use it for peghead scarf joints that essentially become permanent. I also use hard epoxies for some fingerboard joints and for neck laminating.

I take each glue joint as a case unto itself and consider whether it may be a repair issue some day, whether I may ever want to disassemble it, etc.

But Dennis, the cases in point you put up here, both in this thread and in the last dust-up...I'm sorry, but many of us who are pros, who have done literally thousands and thousands of glue joints in instruments...we strongly disagree with you. At this point I don't know why you even ask us for advice here. You clearly have your own opinions which you hold more precious than you hold the truth to be in this lutherie arena. Please just go glue your instruments together with Franklin's Titebond and Weldwood Plastic glue and be done with it. I won't be fixing them in the future, not because they won't need it, but because I'll just refuse the work.

[Mario Proulx]

show a bottle of titebond, a jar of hot hide glue , some type of glue called original formula whatevr that is

When we speak of Titebond, we speak of Titebond original(original formula), because now there is type II and type II to deal with, and each of those is not good for luthin'.... In instrument building, Titebond(original) and hot Hide glue are the standards. I haven't watched the videos that you speak of, but I'm sure they presented them properly.

Mistruths was the wrong term to use, and I apologize. What you're doing is spreading poor information, gathered from the wrong sources, not mistruths.

We don't stick together in a clique. We're simply all trying to set you straight is all. We have done our homework, and we have tested and tried more glues than you can name, and still do. With everyone here, we have centuries of combined knowledge.

If you go to a car and truck forum, and state that you can run 10w30 in the read diff. of a 3/4 ton truck, do you not expect the professional mechanics there to set you straight? Of course! If all of them tell you the same thing, it's because it is correct.

Trust me, if any one of us thought the other was wrong(note Paul ad I disagreed for a bit today), we get straightened up also, and if we keep arguing, everyone will jump in to set it straight. That is all we're doing here.

deja vu for sure, but I didn't get to participate in the other glue threads of the past :cool:

[Rick Turner]

By the way, and not to beat a dead horse or cow (oblique pun here...), but I spent most of a day back at the Martin Guitar factory a couple of months ago. # I played one of the whatever-they-call-'em D-18s that was put together as close to 1930s specs as is humanly possible; this is a very expensive guitar made in their custom shop. # It's all glued together with hot hide glue, has the ebony re-bar in the neck, etc., etc. # #Well, that guitar blew me away; it was just fantastic; you could not ask for a more vintage sounding D-18, and it was better than quite a few "pre-war" Martins I've played. # #Tim Teel, head of R&D there said that he thinks the number one reason it sounds so good is because of the glue. #He could have said "Adirondack" or "ebony neck reinforcement" or whatever, but his opinion, based on being there in the hot seat at CF Martin and getting to see and play tens of thousands of instruments was that the glue made the difference. # I don't think I know anyone anywhere who has more credibility than the head of CF Martin's engineering and R&D department, and while his company makes 70,000 instruments a year with Titebond, his own personal preference is the glue that all the old instruments were put together with.

So is Tim a part of the good old boy conspiracy? #Probably. # And he's earned that position the hard way, and he shares his info generously, just like most of us do. # Dennis, many of us have actually earned our opinions in this biz, and as new glues come out, perhaps we will find some new materials and alternative ways to do things. # BUT, the thing to notice is that we have certain working qualities we seek from adhesives that are constants. # Wa are constantly judging repairability, reversability in many glue joints, a lack of cold creep, a tolerance for at least 140 F conditions, shock resistance, fast, but not too fast tack, compatibility with stains and finishes, stability in differing humidity conditions, toxicity, ease of use, ease of cleanup, etc., etc. # If you are not thinking in these terms, I'd suggest that you do if you want to choose the best adesives for the right jobs. # #This isn't just quick stickum. #

But in the end, you are going to use what you want to use, and why should you even care about the rest of us and our lame opinions? # We are jerks because we disagree with you.

[delsbrother]

Is it Carmelita?

ps I grew up in Echo Park and have eaten at that Pioneer Chicken stand. Not while on heroin though.

[Greenmando]

I just ran out of popcorn, so I have a question.
What do most people use for joining two piece backs? I only glued up a few using titebond - only the plates mind you. The rest I have been using one piece material. My thought was that if the back needed to be removed the joint would be safe from the steam.

[Mario Proulx]

use for joining two piece backs?

For maple mandolin backs(and all(guitar or mandolin) spruce tops), I use hot hide glue. Don't know if it's what most people use....

We don't use steam to remove an instrument's back, by the way.

Rick is talking of the D-18 authentic. It's making quite a stir.... Let's also remember that one of the things Charlie Derrington did to turn Gibson mandolins around was the re-introduction of hot hide glue there, also.

[jackofall]

Dennis, perhaps no one here is sure why Don McRostie and Dan Erliwine choose to do things as they did in that video - but there are enough years of experience in the consensus on this board for me to be happy to put my faith in the Cafe luthiers' advice over most other single sources I've seen.

No one is dissing you deliberately - although they may be less respectful of some of the actual information you've been disseminating. There was a reason that I asked early on for info from these very professionals. Those of us with less experience, who jump in with the morsels we've gathered second hand, tend to just muddy the water.

Please now, just let it lie, eh? Thanks. And thanks for offering the info you did, with good intentions.

[jackofall]

Mario, Rick, Paul, Hans and John,

If any of you guys have the patience to offer tips on actual techniques for glue application and curing, I've started a separate thread HERE (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=40474;r=1).

Reason for another thread is that I thought it might make it easier for future searches if discussion of glue types continued here and discussion of how to use them went in the new thread. Thanks all.

[markishandsome]

I'm sure MacRostie makes some fine instruments, but I don't think having a shop near stew-mac headqarters makes him the final authority on luthiery. All the other pros who share their time and knowledge here have as much or more cred (at least with me) as Don n Dale. Don's opinion is valuable, but being in a video don't make him more right than anyone else. Pick up any of those beginner guitar vidoes at the public library and see what i mean. Anyone can make a video!

[Bill Snyder]

I'm sure MacRostie makes some fine instruments, but I don't think having a shop near stew-mac headqarters makes him the final authority on luthiery. #All the other pros who share their time and knowledge here have as much or more cred (at least with me) as Don n Dale. #Don's opinion is valuable, but being in a video don't make him more right than anyone else. #Pick up any of those beginner guitar vidoes at the public library and see what i mean. #Anyone can make a video!
I believe that Don MacRotsie and Dan Erlwine both have pretty good reputations as luthiers. Dennis mentions hide glue, Titebond, superglue and original formula as being shown in the video. He does not say what they use each of these glues for, but all of these are used by most of the luthiers here for one thing or another with the possible exception of the original formula. Who knows it might not even be glue.

[Mario Proulx]

with the possible exception of the original formula. Who knows it might not even be glue.


I'm positive what they'd have referred to as "original formula" is Titebond. Sometimes we call it titebond, sometimes Titebond original, sometimes original formula. All the same...

As Rick already mentioned, we all use different glues/adhesives for different joints, matching the joint's requirement to the choice of glue/adhesive best suited for the task. Perhaps this is where all the confusion stems from? I just did a quick check, and I use no less than 5 various glues/adhesives on a mandolin, perhaps more. No one glue can do everything; in the days of yore, hide glue did it all(because there was nothing else), but they'd add various additives to it to change its properties. Today, we grab a more suitable product if one is available.

[markishandsome]

I believe that Don MacRotsie and Dan Erlwine both have pretty good reputations as luthiers.

Oh I never meant to imply that those guys weren't top notch, but so are a lot of the folks that post here. I just don't think being in a video should make their way of doing things sacred.

[Bill Snyder]

Part of my point is that I don't know that their way of doing it is different than the luthiers that have posted to this thread.

[Rick Turner]

One of the things we must be aware of is "the test of time". In that department, hot hide glue is several thousands of years into the game, and Titebond, epoxies, CA, polyurethane, etc. are barely several decades into it. Many of us thought Titebond was going to be the cat's meow back when we first started to use it in the 1960s. It's easy, it's pretty strong, it's easy, and Oh, did I say it's easy? But now the test of time is kicking in and many of us are looking at long term performance as being more important than easy. Long term performance includes repairability, no long term slippage or creep, and tone. I think you'll see many good luthiers continue to use Titebond even as some of us ban it from out shops. The guy who makes what are arguably the most expensive flat top steel string guitars in the US uses Titebond. But when I learn new things about old products I use, I pay attention. Now it seems, for instance, that the LMI glue (which I know some have had problems with, but...) has slightly higher temperature resistance and lower long term creep than Titebond, so I use it extensively in my production shop. I'm not bound by or stuck to a tradition of using Titebond. And in our acoustic instruments we'll be using more hot hide glue...along with CA, polyurethane, and epoxies.

I think we should all remain open to new information about the materials we use, and that means constantly reviewing the traditional materials as well as the new ones. That process of review seems to have led many of us back to that thousands of years old glue that was used on the furniture in King Tut's tomb...as well as leading me to some new epoxies I can't wait to try.

[peter.coombe]

For what it is worth I like the LMI glue. Never had any failures with it, and have never had to repair it because no failures (yet). Dries rock hard. I have tried all sorts. Used to use original Titebond, but switched to LMI mainly because it creeps much less than Titebond and is just as easy to use. Hot hide glue is great, fantastic for repairs, but I can't stand the smell (some love the smell), and I had a couple of failures. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but one failure was when I accidently dropped a carved top and the centre join popped apart. Hide glue is brittle so I guess it is no surprise it popped when dropped onto a concrete floor. I would rather that not happen, but it was easy to repair mainly because it was hide glue, so no problem (except wasted time). LMI is not the only glue I use. For example I use a locally manufacured yellow glue to glue wooden bindings, but I would not use it for structural things. Use a glue you find is best for a particular application, which may mean using a number of different glues - and don't stress out about what other people use. Original Titebond, Hide glue, LMI, they all work, are reversible, and all have advantages and disadvantages. There is no such thing as the perfect glue.

[Stephanie Reiser]

As a result of this thread, I think I should bite the bullet and learn to use hot hide glue. I believe Rick's story of his visit to Martin and playing that guitar made with Hot Hide did it for me. It will be tempting not to, as Original Titebond is so easy. But I am trying for better sounding instruments all the time. Bill Cumpiano calls the tone of hot hide glue as a myth, reserved for the violin world. But I'm not so sure.
Rick, on your guitars do you use a dovetail neck to body joint, or a bolt-on? Thank you in advance.

[Rick Turner]

Stephanie, I'm way out in left field with my neck joint. It's a tilting bolted joint done kind of like the Howe Orme guitars of the 1890s, but with a couple of twists. I cantilever the fingerboards over the top so the 'board doesn't even touch. There are two bolts in the face of the heel just under the fingerboard that act as pivots, and there's an Allen bolt through the heel that adjusts the tilt. There are more details, but they are hard to explain. There will be a photo essay in an upcoming Fretboard Journal that details how we build acoustics here. All will be revealed.

I mostly use hot hide glue in repairs and restorations...the few I do...but I will be training a couple of my builders here to use it in more places on our acoustic instruments. I'm thinking the most critical joints are the top seam, the braces, and the top to the sides joint.

Believe me, I fully understand the appeal of easy glues like Titebond and the LMI white glue, especially being an employer. It's amazing how fast things that are not quite right can slip through in batches of parts. Then, whenever there is any employee turnover, which is inevitible, there's a whole expensive training period to endure. With the easy glues, training takes two minutes. With HHG, it's going to be more like several hours over several months.

I have to wonder if the way that HHG pulls together a glue joint may not help get that real wood to wood molecular bond thing happening better than when you have a layer of vinyl in there. I'm really speculating here, but that and the hardness may just be doing the trick.

There are also some very hard epoxies that may have good sonic properties for certain joints in wood. Look at TAP Plastics' hard epoxy. I'm going to try it for my acoustic side doubling and for laminating necks.

[TheMandoShop]

It is important to use hot hide glue on violins because you can then disassemble the violin for repair or refinishing. If you want to remove the fingerboard so you can refinish the top you can heat the fingerboard and use a separation knife soaked in 140 degree water and safely separate the fingerboard from the neck. If you want to repair a crack in the top you can use a separation knife soaked in 140 degree water and separate the top from the body without damaging the wood. I only have experience with making fresh hot hide glue and it is easy to work with for assembly and disassembly of violins. I have heard that bottled hide glue does not work well so I have never tried it.

I have just started working on restoring a very old Gibson archtop and I plan to use Tite Bond on the kerfed lining as I never intend on taking it apart and the setup time is a little more generous than hide glue.

So, I feel it is important to consider the application when considering which glue to use.

[Mario Proulx]

Kyle, that old Gibson archtop was assembled with hot hide glue originally, also. You'd serve yourself, and all other after you, to use hot hide glue for its repairs, please.

Titebond is easier to reverse than a good hide glued joint, BTW.