Elite tuners from stew mac

[Russ Partain]

I was looking desperatley for a good tuner for my new Stan Miller Mandolin #31(the firs built since the 70's) and I finally ran across something that seems to fit the bill. #I am excited to see these new tuners as I called to order the Waverly's and dreaded fitting them to the headstock.

[Russ Partain]

Here is the Pics

[Russ Partain]

Pic #2

[Russ Partain]

Pic #3

[Russ Partain]

Here Are the Specs. #I have a set on order. #I will let you know how I like them after the holidays. #I will install them during New Years Break.

[Russ Partain]

Here are the final specs sheet
Item# Weight

5540 6.451 oz. (182.886 grams)

5540-G 6.435 oz. (182.432 grams)

5541 6.429 oz. (182.262 grams)

5541-G 6.448 oz. (182.801 grams)

5542 6.438 oz. (182.517 grams)

5542-G 6.432 oz. (182.347 grams)

[Jerry Byers]

Did anybody notice the size of the bushings?

Waverly bushings need a .328 hole to insert
Schaller bushings need a .342 hole to insert
Elite bushings need a .360 hole to insert

I smell another specialty tool being required by Stew-Mac to fit the bushings.

[Jerry Byers]

And if anybody is interested in weight comparisons:

Gotoh w/plastic knobs 138.5 grams
Grover "A" w/plastic knobs 149 grams
Grover w/pearl knobs 150.5 grams
Schaller w/plastic knobs 161 grams
Waverly w/pearl knobs 169.5 grams
Elite 182+ grams

I'm not bashing the new tuners - just curious about the new numbers.

What is the price of a gold set with MOP's?

[thistle3585]

They say that they're made by Schaller, and currently used by several manufacturers. They seem to be moderately priced, but the dimensions are odd.

Not to bash SM, but I don't understand why they will sell ivoroid/celluloid buttons but not celluloid binding? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

[Russ Partain]

Where did you get the info about the tuners being made by schaller? I talked to StewMac today and they didn't say that. Actually I talked to a saleperson and she went into another office to ask about the tuners. I really don't know who makes them. She took my order and I thought that she really didn't know much about them. Curious who makes them. Maybe it is Schaller. I didn't get that far into the conversation.

[Jim Garber]

I think it is a mistake on this page (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Mandolin_tuners.html).


Elite A-style Mandolin Tuning Machines
NEW! Used by many manufacturers, Schaller mandolin tuners offer good looks and precision gearing.

I think they picked up the description from the Schaller listing.

Jim

[mandroid]

Now a plastic shoulder washer is a 'nylon compression bearing' ... ho boy !

[Michael Lewis]

I believe the buttons will prove to be other than celluloid. The "ivoroid" buttons that StewMac offers separately are not celluloid but some very hard material that does not get soft with heat.

Interesting point in the specs regarding weight of the machines is that the gold plated ones are lighter than the nickel ones except for one set. Probably just random variation in the base plate. Hhmmmmm. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Russ, thanks for the update and info.

[Paul Hostetter]

The "ivoroid" buttons that StewMac offers separately are not celluloid but what's often called galalith - casein or milk plastic.

Can't wait to try some. Wish the cog looked nicer and the screw was slotted rather than phillips. Oh well.

[8ch(pl)]

I don't know about present times, but the plastic in Eyeglass frames used to be Casein, so that will give an idea of how rugged it is. It is a tough plastic.

[Hans]

Don showed me a set at IBMA...they looked worth a try. If I remember right, the baseplate was a bit heavier than Gotohs. Price is right at 6+. Wish they had screw on buttons and slot screws on post and mounting also. I wonder if the "nylon" compression bearing will withstand a quick dip in printed curcuit board etchant for antiqueing...

[sunburst]

...Wish they had screw on buttons and slot screws on post and mounting also...
I really wish they had screw on buttons, but I prefer the phillips screw heads.
Is it just the 'traditional' look you're wanting, Hans and Paul, or am I missing something about slot head screws and their functionality?

[Paul Hostetter]

For me, the cog screw slot is about look, though I associate phillipshead screws entirely with the Asian instrument tide that displaced so much of the American instrument-making effort in the '60s and after. You never saw phillipshead screws on American gears, ever - only on cheap imports.

The face of the cog, however, with that cheesy knurled surface just removes all doubt about looking like cheap Asian gears. These are made by Schaller?? They look like the low-end Gotoh and Ping to me.

The cast baseplate on these is a reasonably good stab at a traditional plate, better than some others, but a bit tepid considering what they could have done.

The screw-on button thing has taken a turn for the worse as Gotoh changed their button and post configuration to fit only their own unthrilling buttons. Until this last year, Gotohs (the good ones) took the same buttons that Stew-Mac used and offered, and they also took the standard real MOP buttons that have come out of Germany for years. But (read here) (http://www.lutherie.net/gotoh.compared.html) not now. Was this progress?

I prefer screw-on buttons simply because you can get them off if you want without destroying them. The notion that a square post is fitted to a square hole is more reassuring than a drop of glue.

[Hans]

Yup, it's about look. Just like to jamb a slot screwdriver in there to screw up the slot and make them look old! I just filed a set of Gots to take the Waverly MOP buttons, and it's no fun. Spose I'll just fake the buttons and use Stew Macs, drill a hole and glue a screw. Might just have to file off the cheesy knurl on those cogs too!

[Lane Pryce]

I'm kind of disappointed. They look like and more than likely are just another set of dressed up Schallers. Some how I was expecting something somewhere between the usual stuff we have and Waverlys. Lp

[Hans]

It's funny how they just can't get it right even when the pix are staring them in the face!

[Jim Hilburn]

I think the nylon bushing is a real improvement. Grover A's have them and make them run very smoothly.

[Jim Hilburn]

Just took a second look. I wonder why they decided to go with just 3 screws?

[Lane Pryce]

I was looking at that too. Is there any information about the tolerences in the gears? Just curious as to how tight the gears mesh. Lp

[amowry]

I was hoping for a little more from these, too. Couldn't they have done a survey here on the Cafe to come up with the ultimate tuner? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Closer, but still another set of tuners that need custom work to make them look right on a vintage instrument. #I keep a box of slot head flat faced black screws around to replace those oval phillips ones. #The cogs can be sanded on emory cloth and used as-is or replated to look right. #And I keep little screws around to simply drill and screw into the buttons to simulate screw on knobs. #And again the string shafts need turning to get the correct top-hat look at the string hole.

Too much work required that could have been included in the redesign as Andrew says.

[Hans]

Just ordered 6 nickel sets, so we'll see...

[Fretbear]

and an 18:1 ratio, while we are wishing...

[Paul Hostetter]

Not for me. 12:1 was plenty. More teeth per inch mean more friction and more twisting.

[acousticphd]

The elite sets are significantly lighter than the corresponding schaller and grover sets ( A-style sets: 181g vs 209g vs 224g). #That's only 81% of the weight of the Grovers. Two fewer screws (3 vs 5) which would barely be significant; also I notice that the Elite tuning shafts are longer/project out farther from the baseplate. #They are obviously built more lightly, whether that's an advantage or disadavantage.

[Paul Hostetter]

Two fewer screws would barely be significant in terms of weight. My concern is about the plates being pushed away from the back of the headstock by string tension which overpowers the threads.

[Russ Partain]

Look at the Loar tuners, they only had three screws. #I guess that is the reason for this. #I would have like a screw on buttons, but I have heard several threads with screws backing out and the need for loctite. #Maybe screws are a hassle. #When I get mine mounted I will report on my thoughts. Negative or positive. I have no allegiance. Let’s get some feedback on this product before we bash it. #
By the way, what good would it do to solicit feedback from this web site? #No two people on this thread can agree on what they want! # I HOPE these are better than the sorry Gotohs that came on my mandolin.

[Hans]

I think most of us will agree that as long as they are attempting to make a tuner look like the old ones, they should make the tuner look like the old ones. Sadly, I guess the bushings will be like the Schallers. Tried to get them to sell me some Waverly bushings, but, well...

[Russ Partain]

Hans,
# # #I thought you bought the tuners. #I am confused. Do you like them or not. #For me personally I would rather have the Waverly's, but after Michael Lewis warned me about the installation I bought these tuners, (the Nickle with the Ivorid buttons. #I do care about apperance,but that is secondary to function. #Installation is important also. #I want a drop in tuner. #If the Waverly's simply dropped in, I would buy them. #I hope and I repeat I hope these tuners make me happy. #
My Gotoh's are terrible. #If you down tune them, the tuner loses all tension. #I absolutely hate these tumers. #They are really cheap looking and function worse than Schallers.

[Hans]

Russ, I did order 6 sets, but as Darryl said, lots of work to make 'em look like the real thing, and I hate using those ###### eyelets in place of the bushings.
As far as do I like them, don't know, don't have them yet. Soon as I get them I'll distress a set, slap 'em on Lloyd 4 and report back.
Wow, guess you can't even use c----y on the board...how bout not so hot?

[Russ Partain]

Hans,
# # This was not a barb at you. #I just didn't really understand. #I really Hope the new tuners don't let me down. Like you, I really want smething just a little different. But, I will be happy if they function smoothly and drop in neatly.

I really love the looks of the Waverly's and will not use any other guitar tuners. #I just wish they were user friendly as replacement tuners. #

Let me know what you think when you get you tuners in. #
I met you at Grass Valley two years ago and would like to hear your thoughts on these new tuners. #Although I bought a set, I am not sure I am sold on them or will buy another set. #I really will need two more sets in the not too distant future. #I am holding off on their purchase until I get some time in #on these. #By no means am I the spokes model for these tuners. #Maybe the town crier because I found out about these at the same exact time I spent three weeks looking all over for a replacement for the Gotohs on my new Stan Miller #31.

As far as the word C****Y. #Yeah I would use it and apply it to the Gotohs. #But all of this is my humble opinion.

One last thing, what is the difference between eyelets and bushings. Doesn't one website sell vintage bushings? I thought it was Stew Mac. I will go back and look. I really don't know the difference. Also, I compared the bushings on the spec sheet for Gotoh, Schaller and Elite. They seem to have all different sizes, but the hole size for all three seeems to be the same. What gives?

[Michael Lewis]

Russell, I think you should address the slots in the nut before you blame the Gotohs. Make sure the strings are free in the slots and not binding. From your comment it sounded like a string is binding and holding tension while the string is slack from the nut to the string post. Right? If not, never mind.

[Hans]

Russ, no barb taken...just wanted to clarify my own statement. From what I saw at IBMA, I expect they will be better than Gots (otherwise 5 sets will go back). I ordered 6 sets cause there is a price break, and there will be a rush on them. I do agree with you on Gots, I think they work as well as a worn out set of 1914 Gibson tuners...lots of backlash.

[Russ Jordan]

The Gotohs on my TOB work just fine.

[Paul Hostetter]

I have noticed that the new Gotohs are stiffer than the ones they made for years before. I once could take a fresh set out of the box and twirl a button with one fingertip and the post would just turn, but since the new collared buttons came in, no more. They're like Schaller and Grovers now. Boo. But the ones I have installed so far seem to work well enough after lubing and adjusting. I'm with Michael and Russ - if someone's having trouble, they need to look elsewhere than the gears.


I think they work as well as a worn out set of 1914 Gibson tuners...lots of backlash.
If they don't work well, the old Gibson gears people so love to hate have not been maintained since they were new. All those decades of 3-In-One has congealed into a glue under the cog, and it's no wonder they don't turn well. Every time I clean and maintain an old set, they work like new, and backlash is not a problem at all. If people took care of their gears the way hunters take care of their guns there'd be a lot less whingeing about gears!

[Russ Partain]

Michael,
# # # # I am making a new nut. #The string height at the first fret is low. #How low I really don't know because I haven't measured it. #When I install a new nut, what material would you use? #I have ordered new MOP, Nut I have some bone on hand. #Also could you give me and idea what action measurement I should set this mandolin up with? #I know this is off this thread, but I have seen measurement at a few fret locations up the neck (maybe the 1st, 7th, 12th) or whatever measurements you take when you set one up. I would appreciate this.

[Paul Hostetter]

Russ - could I suggest you start a new thread about that? This one's about tuners. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Russ Partain]

Thanks Paul, #I started a new thread on setup. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Hans]

OK, here's the new tuners. I've done half the set, cut off the shafts to turn them into A tuners, cracked off the mother of toilet seat buttons, and replaced them with MOP's from Stew-Mac. Nice thing is you don't have to grind the holes out to fit like when putting buttons on Schallers. I've also antiqued the tuners (didn't harm the nylon bushings-whew!) and drilled the buttons for fake screws.
The verdict? They turn very smoothly, albeit very stiff at first. A few turns and they loosen up. Fairly consistent feel between different shafts. Notice the cracked off button shaft is flat on two sides as if they might offer screw on buttons in the future. Shaft is not drilled and tapped though. I'll get a set on Lloyd 4 tomorrow and report on the strung up workability. First impression is that they will work nicely. They are (unfortunately) made in Taiwan.

[Hans]

Another shot...Afraid my batteries are running down. I'll try to get some better shots tomorrow.

[Hans]

OK, boys and girls, here's Lloyd 4 set up with antiqued tuners. They were drop in, no problems except redrill a couple of mounting holes. Thing I noticed about the tuners is unlike Schallers, Grovers and Gotohs, the post has no slop in the plate...YES! They don't wiggle. That makes for very little to no backlash.
Most of you builders and repairpeople will remember the first ads for the Waverlys with quotes from all those hotshot players about how the tuners even tune down...well guess what. So do these (well at least this set). I hate to sound too enthusiastic, but so far so good. My only problem with them so far is that the plating on the plate is too hard...chrome? By the time you get the plate to tarnish up good, the shafts are almost down to brass. I guess on the next distrtessed set I do, I will have to try to dip the plate while not dipping the shaft.

[jk245]

Did anybody notice the size of the bushings?

Waverly bushings need a .328 hole to insert
Schaller bushings need a .342 hole to insert
Elite bushings need a .360 hole to insert

I smell another specialty tool being required by Stew-Mac to fit the bushings.
The .360 is = an ordinary 23/64 drill (or full size reamer) which is readily available and should be in your drill set;
just open up from an 11/32 then open to 23/64. No sweat.

[Jerry Byers]

True. However, take a look at it from a different view - why? Why did they make such a thick bushing?

[Paul Hostetter]

Or why would you use it at all when you can get those spiffy little bushings from Stew-Mac that look right?

http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/0733_1lg.jpg

[Lane Pryce]

Just curious but what kind of life expectancy does nylon have when used as it is here ---- the bushing? What kind of effects will abrasive things like dirt ect have on the nylon bushing? If the bushing wears out what happens to the worm/gear assembly under tension?

Hans the tuners look really nice on your mandolin. The ageing process really makes them look original. Lp

[thistle3585]

I asked my dad this question, he sells o-rings and seals in a variety of materials, and he said that nylon would be fine for this application. Most likely nylon was chosen because its cheaper, and easier, to manufacture. He thought the only other viable option would be teflon, but it is probably cost prohibitive based on the volume and application.

[sunburst]

...he said that nylon would be fine for this application...
Likely so, but we're looking at 100+ years here. Can the nylon pieces be replaced if they are damaged or worn out?
I realize that the 100-year-old tuners that are still working fine on mandolins today don't have any replaceable wear surfaces because the wear surfaces are part of the tuners, but it just seems to me that designing replaceability into a separate part like that is a better design idea than making it non-replaceable. I can't really tell from the pictures if it's replaceable or not. Hans?

[Hans]

Don't know, how long they will last, and not willing to find out how the collar comes off that holds the nylon spacer on. My guess is that it's a press fit. I'm sure the nylon will last a good long time, and at 48 bucks a crack...
I have lots of sets of old Gibson tuners that are worn out...sure they work, sort of, but the posts are sloppy in the plates, and the button shafts have worn the bearing surfaces oval. These are very tight which tells me the tolerances are better. Also, the plates are solid like Gots and unlike the Grovers and Schallers which have that U bend in the areas to support the button shaft...not great for close tolerances.

[Jim Hilburn]

The rumor was going around that Stew-Mac was going to come out with these, but last summer they were denying it.I needed tuners so bought another 6 sets of Schallers. I contacted them and they will do the exchange if I choose.
In the mean time, I ordered a set of gold Gotoh's with black buttons From LMI by customer request and I'm pretty impressed. I tried a set several years ago and I thought they were junk, but these seem totally different. The first set had floating shafts that seemed as though they weren't put together correctly but these new ones are tight and very precise feeling. Nice looking bushings, too. They were pricey, although nothing like Waverlies, but I think I'm going to like them.
Going to be a while till I get them installed though.
Is this a hi-jack?

[testore]

gald to hear that Gotohs are better.I used two pair about a year and a half ago and swore to never buy another. They were SLOPPY and cheap looking. I think I'll give Elite a try too, but still like Grovers.

[tterral]

I am wondering how these Elite tuners will stack up against the stock Gotohs on my Collings MT. I bought the instrument used a few months back and I believe it is a year or two old and had not been played much, but the tuners are horrible. They do not keep tune and there is a small piece that has come loose on the E tuner closest to the body. It will tune, but I have to retune after every couple of songs. Will the Elite fit the MT without any retro fitting (drop in)? Any other ideas on what would work well on the MT? The Elites sound promising. Use Waverly's on my 2 guitars and like them, but not enough to pay what the want for their mando tuners (if they still made them).

Thanks.
Tim Terral

[Paul Hostetter]

Tim - it is utterly physically impossible for gears to slip. Even the cheapest Ping gears don't and can't slip. The tuning problems you are experiencing have nothing to do with the tuners per se, they are elsewhere in the setup or possibly basic lubing and adjustment of the gears themselves. Most likely friction in the nut slots. Get your instrument set up right, and save a lot of loot on unnecessary gears.

I do have a page or two about tuner maintenance (http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html) and about different versions of Gotohs (http://www.lutherie.net/gotoh.compared.html) which you can follow links to. Maybe they'll help.

[tterral]

Thanks for the reply Paul, I will check out your tips - sounds like that will help. However, as I mentioned, the 'E' string tuner closest to the body of the mandolin appears to be broken. The small 'U' shaped piece of metal that holds the shaft of the tuner to the base plate is unattached and dangles on the shaft, thus the shaft/button are skewed at a slight downward angel. I can still tune it up, but am a little leary.

Thanks.
Tim Terral

[Paul Hostetter]

I assume you mean this piece between the arrows is loose?

http://www.lutherie.net/gotohs.question.jpg

I'd be more than leery, I'd get a replacement pronto. I don't see how that one could work at all without that piece anchored in there. It might be worth calling Collings and seeing if they have an extra strip for that side they'd sell you. You're not the original owner so you can't expect a freebie, but they're really nice people there and I bet they'll help you out.

BTW, did you notice my photo of the change in rivets that hold that part on? I never had an old set misbehave, and I wondered why they changed this detail.

http://www.lutherie.net/gotohs.rivets.jpg

Old ones on the left, new ones on the right.

[Jim Hilburn]

From the looks of the set of Goats I got, it would take some blunt trauma to break that rivet although I guess a faulty set can't be ruled out.

[Paul Hostetter]

I've never had a bum set of Gotohs, but I have had a few sets of Waverlys that didn't work well. Having that widget (flotchie?) fall off is pretty unusual.

[tterral]

Well Paul, that is the piece that dangles on my tuner shaft. Guess I got "lucky" since it seems very odd that piece would have broken. I will try Collings and see if they will help. The mandolin certainly did not appear to be abused when I bought it, so it is surprising this has happened.

Thanks for the Help.
Tim Terral

[tterral]

Just talked to Collings (Alex) and they are sending me a new set of tuners, no charge. To say the least, that is very good customer service, especially since I am not the original owner of the mandolin (which they are aware of).

Thanks for the help on this.
Tim Terral

[Lane Pryce]

You can't beat that kind of customer service ----- period. Lp

[Paul Hostetter]

On the subject of bushings and so on, I have a new Martin D-18 "Authentic 1937" in right now for a setup, a rather high-ticket item that came with Martin's new "old" gears allegedly made by Gotoh. Can anyone confirm that these really are made by Gotoh?

http://elderly.com/images/new_instruments/10N/D18AUTH_tuners.jpg

The bushings are a mess. Brand new guitar and the plastic washers on two of the six have died already, squeezing out and broken, and it's not even to its second set of strings. This owner's simply springing for a set of Waverlys just to get it going, but I'm astonished at how much trouble Martin or Gotoh or someone went to for a really ###### gear.

[Rich Michaud]

I found this thread very helpful. I have been looking for a set of arrow end tuners to go on a newly acquired A2Z. I bought the elite A nickel set and dropped it in without the bushings (I prefer not to drill bigger holes in a vintage instrument) but using standard bushings if that is the right term. So far so good. I would like to antique them-Hans what should I do for that? Rich

[Jerry Byers]

Can anyone confirm that these really are made by Gotoh?
Those tuners are Gotohs. The Martin site lists them in the specs. There was also a thread about those tuners at UMGF.

When I bought my D-28 Marquis, the tuners were the first thing to be replaced. I upgraded, and I do mean upgraded to Waverly's.

It's surprising that a set of Waverly's for a guitar is over $300 cheaper than for a mandolin. Or, maybe not.

[Rich Michaud]

As to antiquing the tuner plates-Should I use ferric chloride? And if anyone knows, how do I yellow the buttons? Rich

[Hans]

Hey Rich, greetings from Bakersfield. I used printed curcuit board echant...got it at Radio Shack. I would paint it on the plate only, let it work for maybe 15 seconds, rinse well with water, and see what it looks like. Do it again if it needs it, but don't overdo it. Then dip the whole tuner in the etchant right up to the buttons for 10 seconds. I assume that you got the tuners with ivoroid buttons already on. I usually get the Mother of Toilet seat ones and just crack the buttons off and replace them with ivoroid or MOP after I've done the distressing.
If you're feeling adventurous, dip the buttons too, and see if they yellow.

[Paul Hostetter]

The Gotoh gear thing is pretty disappointing. I've always regarded them as a high-grade outfit, but the guitar gears are a mess and the mandolin gears have taken a turn for the worse as well. I have a little page about the guitar gears (http://www.lutherie.net/gotoh.guitar.gear.problems.html), perhaps we can kick up some dust and get some results.

Fiebing's or Angelus leather dye is worth a try on the buttons. Be careful of the color you start with, there are a million different shades of amber and tan and so on. It doesn't penetrate deeply, but it does seem to go on and stay put. I've aged both galalith and celluloid buttons and they came out pretty well.

[sunburst]

The last two sets of Gotoh mando tuners I've used were not very good. The most recent customer opted to replace his with Waverlys.

I hope they improve those guitar tuners. I need a set for my '41 D-18, and the oval buttons would look original on there.

[Paul Hostetter]

The irony is that Gotoh used to have a nice oval-button gear and it's no longer available. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Rich Michaud]

Thank you Hans and Paul for your help. So far, I have antiqued the Elite A tuners as Hans suggested and it worked well. Now I will follow Paul's suggestion as to applying leather dye to the buttons. The Elites dropped into the A2Z without modification of the existing holes. I used the regular bushing-The Elite bushing would require a larger drilled hole which I didn't want to do on a vintage instrument-who knows, I made find a vintage set of arrow end tuners. Meanwhile, the Elites are certainly better than what I had. Rich

[Adam Tracksler]

whatever tuners John used on mine are great. I have absolutely no complaints. I will look in my email archives to see what they were, but John will probably remember and post it before I do.

[sunburst]

Adam, your's are Grovers.

[Paul Hostetter]

Rich -

Before you commit your final set, practice on some buttons that don't matter!

[Rich Michaud]

Paul, Thanks, I will try out the dyes before I die them the wrong color. The Elite tuners are now mounted and antiqued but for the buttons. I will post a picture shortly. Rich