Rattler in the mando

[Troyer]

Played a friends Gibson last week and he had a rattlesnake rattle in his mandolin. I killed a rattler in Montana 20 years ago and guess what I put inside my Eastman 515? I was told it helps keep everything clean inside the mando,spider webs etc. and I also thought it was pretty cool idea. Think it could effect the sound? I haven't noticed any diff.

[Paul Hostetter]

There you are. Fiddlers do this and can actually hear them, and it's a nice buzz. But it's not about keeping anything clean, it's entirely about the sound. Think about how a fiddle rests when it's being played, and how close the player's ear is to it. Then think about the mandolin, and why it might not apply there.

http://www.lutherie.net/toneball.jpg

[Clyde Clevenger]

I have one in my mandolin, just for the Mojo and because my Grandaddy had one in his fiddle.

I may not be good, but I'm Confident.

[jasona]

http://www.lutherie.net/toneball.jpg
I assume we are looking inside a violin and that is a soundpost we are seeing. What is a toneball?

[Paul Hostetter]

That thing you're looking inside the violin at is a toneball. It's what eventually happens to all that schmutz inside your violin: it rolls itself into a toneball. You don't need a rattlesnake rattle as a cleaning device. Sound enhancement, yes. Cleaning device? No. The toneball takes care of it. I've seen them in cellos well over an inch and a half in diameter. Beautiful.

[sunburst]

I saw a 'tone ball' from a de Torres guitar sold at auction once...

[Mikey G]

I have a rattlesnake rattle in my F5-L: Good mojo as mentioned earlier. Can't tell if the tone or volume are any different since it's been in there since I got the mandolin.

[allenhopkins]

Now, a live rattlesnake in your mandolin -- that's a different story...

[JEStanek]

That must be the universal sink for belly-button lint!

Jamie

[SternART]

I've heard the dust from a disintegrating rattles is poison.....any truth to that?
With all those people sniffing Loars this could be relevant!

[billkilpatrick]

speaking as one who has a rattlesnake rattle in his charango, i can say that the discernible acoustic benefit for this uniquely north american practice is absolutely nil - the idea of having mini-sound chambers of the rattle, enhancing the sound of your instrument could be equally applied (probably with a lot more effectiveness) to the insertion of one or more ping-pong balls in same.

where possession of a rattlesnake rattle counts is in matters associated with macho. the look people give me when they discover i've actually got one in there, rattlin' around, is a lot more satisfying and way more cheaper than - say - owning a porche ... or sporting a leather jacket ... or cowboy boots ... or what ever it is that guys of certain age get up to when they start looking down the hill, as opposed to looking up.

grrrrr ...

they're also supposed to deter the devil from entering your mandolin.

this i can believe.

i don't think the chemical structure of rattlesnake venom extends to its rear-end - nor to its meat - which, i'm told, people actually eat ... out of cans (!)

- bill

[The Old Sarge]

i don't think the chemical structure of rattlesnake venom extends to its rear-end - nor to its meat - which, i'm told, people actually eat ... out of cans (!)

- bill
I've never eaten it out of cans but I have eaten it fresh (fried just with cornmeal covering like you might do chicken). I know it was fresh because I was helping skin the snakes one year at Sweetwater. I also took some home and deep fried it myself. Not bad but with all the bones it was more trouble than it was worth.

[Loren Bailey]

I too am sure the "dust" from the rattles is not lethal. I think you have to wonder what that "dust" will do to the innards of your mando though. Could you lightly coat the rattle with something(shelac, urethane, etc.) to prevent it from shedding it's dust?

Loren

[mythicfish]

'or what ever it is that guys of certain age get up to when they start looking down the hill, as opposed to looking up.'

I'm 62 and looking up the hill .... from the bottom of the other side.

Curt

[Dale Ludewig]

I believe Will Kimble puts a rattler tail in his mandos. At least he used to. (mabye he's run out of snakes?- Will?)

I think it more of a traditional than an acoustical effect. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Steve G]

A rattlesnake makes a perfect stocking stuffer. Happy Holidays.

[fatt-dad]

Your retail SOURCE (http://www.hideandfur.com/)

fatt nothing-in-it-for-me dad

[Jim Broyles]

A couple clicks into f-d's link. (http://www.hideandfur.com/inventory/55450640.html)

[Bob Simmers]

Bill had one big rattle from Oklahoma and couple buttons inside his Loar. Don't that count for somethin? Seriously, I thought it just added a little resonance to the chop and tremelos. I really don't know because I've never had one. I know Murphy Henry use to have one in her Randy Wood #1. There are lots of minor adjustments people make to instruments that I can't hear the difference. Maybe this is another.

[Dan Adams]

I have a rattle in both my f-models. The only difference I can tell is the mandolin rattles when you pick it up or take it out of the case. As far as dust, the 15 or so rattles in a desk drawer have been there for 20 or 30 years and I've suffered no ill effects. Pay no attention to the twitch... Dan

[Kevin K]

Anybody else have a rattle in their mandolin?

[Jerry Byers]

Of course, it's all about the mojo.

[JEStanek]

Not since I moved to a cast tailpiece. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jamie

[Big Joe]

I have a rattler tail in mine. It certainly affects the tone when you shake the mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . I do not know if it affects it any other time.

[Chip Booth]

Do they buzz when you play?

[Dan Krhla]

I put a capo *in* my mandolin and clip a rattler rattle on my headstock.

Makes me feel cool...

[stevem]

I've got one in mine too. It makes my mandolin sound a hundred thousand million times better, in an inaudible way.

[MikeEdgerton]

Hey fatt-dad, thanks for the source on those rattles. I've been wanting to pick some up and this is cheaper and safer than any of the alternatives. I may actually buy some other stuff from these guys as well.

[Dan Krhla]

I'll prob order from them too. Note, they have longer (and more expensive) rattles than the one linked to a couple below FD's link... You can get some of the biggest ones for like $18 US

[Jerry Byers]

Do they buzz when you play?
On some occasions, you can hear the rattle buzz - depends on the song and the company.

[Cullowheekid]

I know a older gentelman who keeps 3 dollar bills inside his Loar F-5.I asked him why and he said,"I can tell them how much money I've got in this mandolin when they ask."Seriously.I never did ask him what it did for the tone of the mandolin.E

[Dan Krhla]

Here's the "official" word, so much for the rattles on the dresser dust:

Rattles are made of keratin, the same thing your fingernails are made of.

There is no poisonous dust in them. They are perfectly safe to handle or even sniff.

(Though I feel I must say that getting them off the snake could turn into a dangerous affair, as even a dead snake can bite!)

Hope this helps,

Chad Minter
Author
Venomous Snakes of the Southeast
http://www.envenomated.com

[MikeEdgerton]

I ordered a rattle today, it shipped today. By next week I'll be playing like Monroe. What could be better than that?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

[Bernie Daniel]

I put an MP3 player that alternates between Raw Hide and the William Tell Overture in mine!

[Dan Adams]

I must have 20 rattles in a drawer that have been there for years. #There is also a rattle in both my 'performance' mandolins. The only time they rattle is when I take the mando out of the case or put it back in. #There is a rattlesnake mojo, but undefined. #Doesn't affect the tone or my playing ability, that's why the mojo is undefined. #I may be interested in selling some of the tails in the future, but for those of you that want to hunt their own snakes, do I have a deal for you.. #Of course that includes walking a few miles of fence line, repairing fence in 100 degree temperatures, and dodging snakes. #Small sacrifice for the MOJO! #Dan Posted in the other thread. #Hard to belive people are paying for rattles, now I might really have to re-think my collection. #All this time I thought a rattlesnake at my feet was just a nuisance. #Dan

[Dan Adams]

Let it be known that no rattlers were hurt in this aquisition, well... #not under my watch. #These rattlers were inherited. #I will add this though, nothing like the sound of a rattlesnake hitting the gound after a 30' toss off the end of a shovel. # Rattle, rattle, whomp... # #

[Mikey G]

As I said before, it's good mojo, and it does keep the inside relatively free of dust. cob webs, etc...I swear I believe I've heard it buzz a few times, and I kinda liked it. Mine has twelve rattles and a button.

[Rick Cadger]

[reads thread with mounting sense of disbelief/alarm. backs out slowy and quietly. closes door]

[Bernie Daniel]

Not to dash cold water on this discussion but please keep in mind that in many areas of the USA at least rattlesnakes have become rare and endangered. #

I know many do not find living rattlesnakes "attrative" and if I were a private landowner in west or the south I would not find rattlesnakes on my provate lands as "useful".

Nonetheless they are useful in contolling rodents and they are a natural part of the many ecosystems. I believe they do enjoy some state and federal protection as wildlife in some areas so I think I would not go hunting rattlesnakes without checking on it.

Typically there are often too many people trying to use ecosystems in a way the is consumptive - e.g. salmon. #We almost lost our egrets (and several other species of bird) years ago as they were nearly all killed off so women could have those large white feathers in their hats....etc. #And it used to be sport to shoot eagles. #Same thing happend with many ivory-bearing animals and many species of tortise.

So the part that bothers me is if folks buy rattles then that creates a market and if there is a market someone else will exploit it...just a thought.

On the other hand mandolin players are not yet at epidemic numbers....yet that is.

[Jerry Byers]

Kind of like people creating a market for mahogany, BRW, and Red spruce. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[fatt-dad]

So here's the checklist:

One rattle $10.00
A set of Monroe Strings $10.00 (extra tarnish, please)
An extra heavy large Triangle pick $1.00
A mandolin from a Barber Shop $150.00

O.K. now you have to practice - heck that's hard. . . .

f-d

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if every mandolin player on the cafe buys a rattle for every mandolin they have that the number of rattlesakes won't decline appreciably. I've been wrong before.

By the way, the only reason I have want a rattle in my mandolin is for the sheer fun of it. I have no dilusions of it making it sound any better. I'm not worried about rodents as they have yet to make it through a Calton case.

[Bernie Daniel]

MikeEderton: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if every mandolin player on the cafe buys a rattle for every mandolin they have that the number of rattlesakes won't decline appreciably. I've been wrong before.

Well again this is mandolin fourm and this response is a bit short in mando content. #But you raised the question --so.............

I assume that would require 20 - 40,000 snakes? (10,000 members * 2 to 4 mandolins per member)? #Just a guess-tah-mitt. #Further, I do not know for sure what kind of impact that would have.

There are some 15 - 17 species of North American rattlesnakes. #Some are actually endangered (threatened for survival) others are not so bad off but none of them are doing well.

It is strange (and to me sad) how we deal with certain kinds of wildlife. #Some get our respect and others equally deserving of respect get our contempt. Why do we make these judgements?

If Bill Monroe had worn an eagle feather in his hat would we then shoot eagles to have one? #Or if he used tortoise shell picks would they have to be procured regardless the cost?

Anyone who takes the time to learn about those snakes realizes they are amazing and very unique animals and a genuine part of our natural heritage.

I do not believe that human life and animal life are equal at all -- but if you have ever really had a close friendship with a dog you realize that animal awareness is quite impressive and animal "life" is much profound than we give them credit for usually.

I see wildlife as a gift that is to be used and managed by humans -- but not exploited. #

Duck hunters pay a lot of money to hunt ducks and their money has been used by the federal government to buy wetlands and that is why we have record numbers of waterfowl.

So duck hunters and other hunters put their money into nature and then rightfully they consume part of that which they have provided (for all the rest of us I might add). #

It is a fair bargin and I applaude them -- though I am not a hunter myself -- I support their right to hunt.

But killing a rattlesnake just to have a rattle? #I don't see it but my value system is mine and mine alone.

Maybe there is a market for fake rattlesnake rattle like faux-shell?

[fatt-dad]

That's why I'm lookin' for a rattle from a dead rattlesnake. I don't want to kill to get one. Anybody have one in their drawer? Just mail it to fatt-dad, General Delivery, 23005. Let me know in advance and I'll tell the postmaster to keep an ear out for it.

f-d

[MikeEdgerton]

I see wildlife as a gift that is to be used and managed by humans -- but not exploited.

You assume the rattler was killed just for it's rattle (you most likely assume wrong). The company I bought it from sells hides of all kinds including rattlesnakes. Perhaps it was killed for it's meat and it's hide and it's rattle. Perhaps the person that killed it makes his living and feeds his family doing that. I'm sure the company owner feeds his family with what he sells. These aren't people exploiting wildlife they are people selling a product that you can choose to buy or not to buy. I'd dare say that might be more honorable than raising ducks to shoot them. You also assume that the snake was not raised in a farm setting. I wouldn't make that assumption.

I don't worry about where the wood came from that Gibson built my mandolin out of. I wear a leather belt and I eat hamburgers with no guilt or shame... other than the fact that I shouldn't eat as much as I do.

I'm going to guess that 40,000 rattlesnakes across the entire range of the rattler isn't a great amount in the grand scheme of things and it would be interesting to see how many are killed by cars and trucks each year.

If someone wants to put a rattlesnake tail in their mandolin then they should simply do it. It's a salute to tradition the same way learning the old songs and playing the traditional styles is. You make a choice to participate or not and nobody judges you for not doing it. There really isn't any moral high ground here.

[MikeEdgerton]

That's why I'm lookin' for a rattle from a dead rattlesnake.
The rattles you buy from Idaho come from dead snakes fatt-dad. The snakes get real angry if you take them from them when they're alive.

Mine should be here in a few days. I may tape it to the headstock instead of putting it inside.

[stevem]

The rattlesnake was an important symbol of the American revolution with the "don't tread on me" flag. The seal (below) from Georgia in 1788 translates: "No one will provoke me with impunity."

Quote from here. (http://www.luckymojo.com/rattlesnake.html) "One wonderful old gentleman from North Carolina said that his grandfather told him that "way back, the fiddle used to be a woman's instrument and putting the rattles inside 'masculinizes' it for men folk to play."

You lose the coolness factor when you order a rattle online, IMO. You should have to do something to earn it. I won one in a poker match. Another came when I had to choose between a rattler and my dog in the backyard.

[tree]

Used to have two in my mando, unfortunately I've lost both of them. One was 20 years old, from the only rattler I ever killed and ate (all together, now - "Tastes just like chicken"). The other was road kill.

The musical effect is sort of like a hi-hat if you move around a lot or chop real hard, except it's mostly the player that hears it. The mojo is what it's all about, IMO.

Around here the Eastern Diamondback is an endangered species; I wouldn't kill another one. Canebreak rattlers are still pretty common, though I don't think I'd intentionally kill one of them either. I ain't skeered of no snakes.

[MikeEdgerton]

I won the money that I bought mine with arm wrestling with a banjo player. Does that make it any better? I heard Bill Monroe bought his with money he made playing his mandolin. Like I said, there's no moral high ground here. This is strictly for fun and if you choose to hunt your snake down or win it in a poker game have at it. Nothing lost on where you got it from. I don't subscribe to the macho portion of this anymore than I subscribe to the concept of it wrecking the ecosystem. Winning it in a poker game doesn't devalue the fact that I was able to beat a woman that played the banjo real well in an arm wrestling match. You lose the coolness factor when you judge others IMO. I think I earned the money that's all that really matters.

[Bernie Daniel]

MikeEdgerton: Like I said, there's no moral high ground here. This is strictly for fun and if you choose to hunt your snake down or win it in a poker game have at it. Nothing lost on where you got it from. I don't subscribe to the macho portion of this anymore than I subscribe to the concept of it wrecking the ecosystem. Winning it in a poker game doesn't devalue the fact that I was able to beat a woman that played the banjo real well in an arm wrestling match. You lose the coolness factor when you judge others IMO. I think I earned the money that's all that really matters.

Until it becomes illegal to kill them you can do as you wish.

But as to whether you are or are not hurting the ecosystem is not you for you to "declare". #

Opinions to not count in making that judgement. #I would guess you are not a wildlife expert and (with all due respect) your #opinions on this subject do not carry too much weight.

Rattlesnake population counts, snake reproduction data counts, and distribution statistics count. #That is all that counts -- the actual facts.

I do not think anyone "judged" you but neither does anyone "lose coolness" by judging -- that is a right we have and we can do all the judging we want if we choose to. #Free country.

You suggest killing 40,000 rattlesnakes is OK. #That is your guess. #I say the moon is made of green cheese. #That is my guess.

Do you actually KNOW what percentage of the total population 40,000 snakes represents? #If not how do you know what kind of an impact it is?

As to people killing rattlesnakes for hides and food and for living? #Do you actually know of such people? # #

Here is one fact that has been determined by the US Fish and Wildlife -- a lot of rattlesnakes are killed each year for sport by ignonant people #-- the carcass are left to rot -- the rattles are usually taken. #

Your "arguements" and justifications are your opinions. #Your opinions are yours and and you are entitled to them.
Free country.

But just to set the record straight that is all they are #--opinions.

[MikeEdgerton]

But just to set the record straight that is all they are --opinions.

As are yours Bernie.

Obviously this is an emotional issue for you that would best be served in another forum. If you wish to question what I do and don't know please feel free to PM me. I grew up around rattlers, we had them in our fields. I have no love for them, I do appreciate that everything has a place in the food chain including man. There really isn't any need to make it personal and thanks for writing. It's really not an emotional issue for me, it's a rattle in a mandolin. It's not a cure for cancer.

[Bernie Daniel]

Yes Mike, opinions are opinions -- but I actually threw in a few facts along the way too! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As to making it "personal" -- who was it that wrote: "

"You assume the rattler was killed just for it's rattle (you most likely assume wrong). The company I bought it from sells hides of all kinds including rattlesnakes. Perhaps it was killed for it's meat and it's hide and it's rattle. Perhaps the person that killed it makes his living and feeds his family doing that. I'm sure the company owner feeds his family with what he sells. These aren't people exploiting wildlife they are people selling a product that you can choose to buy or not to buy. I'd dare say that might be more honorable than raising ducks to shoot them. You also assume that the snake was not raised in a farm setting. I wouldn't make that assumption."

My point was not emotional at all. #My point was merely that because you or anyone else choose not to worry or to declare "NO PROBLEM" does not make it so. #If fact it has nothing to do with the state of the matter. #

What is important to the survival of the species? # You've given your answer-- that is you don't care. #You have a right to your opinion. #But is does not change the facts.

By your logic we could all go out and kill bald eagles and sell their feathers -- because we would not be exploiting wildlife just selling a product someone can choose to buy??

As to if being best served on another forum -- I agree and I would have stopped talking about this some time ago. #

But the record will show my first post on this topic was NOT addessed to you. #In fact it was not addressed anyone by name.

I was making a comment --giving my opinion -- YOU then choose to start OUR conversation by addressing a comment to ME. #

Now you declare it is the wrong fourm? #OK -- this time I agree -- you got a deal! #No hard feelings.

[MikeEdgerton]

Bernie, I'm asking you to take this private if you want to continue it. There's no reason to make it personal here. You have your opinions and personally I don't agree with them. Your facts are as questionable as your intentions. Let's just leave it at that.

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie, I'm asking you to take this private if you want to continue it.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif You want to take it private but you keep contining to addressing me on the public fourm? I agreed with you about that last time.

[Dan Adams]

For those of you that have never been in the situation of facing a rattlesnake face-to-face in the course of doing work on the ranch, and protecting the investment of the ranch or your personal well being, I doubt if the opinions are well informed. For those of us that have been in the situation where you and your livelyhood are somewhat dependent upon a split minute decisions at an intense monment, than our opinion may differ. Not that either opinion is right or wrong, just different perceptions. Personally I'm a green consumer and rancher/farmer, but the well being of the family and farm takes some precident in survival. Step forward all those that find themselves trying to survive in this delicate balance. It's a hard choice, sometimes everyday. This conversation started as a simple observation about the MOJO of a rattlesnake rattle in a mandolin. In my humble opinion, two very insignificant observations about the economy of and survival of the family farm in America, versus the protection of a mis-understood species. Both opinions of which I whole heartedly agree with by the way, but the original topic is not so serious and definitely does not carry any moral implications. At least I didn't think so, but I'm just a dumb farmer/rancher, business professional, public servant... Dan

[Scott Tichenor]

This has turned into a fight no one is going to win, and the topic is matter that has emotional appeal to both sides. It has little to do with playing mandolins though. I respect your right to have spirited discussions, but animal rights battles aren't something that are going to be fought here. I'll expect to not see another thread opened regarding this subject.