Playability - what is it, and which ones have it?

[mjsdawa]

I have found that my hand gets fatigued playing some mandolins, and less so with others. What is your experience, and which mandolins seem most "playable"?

[mandroid]

For me It's the ones that I take in for a professional set up, at my local luthier instrument repair specialist.

my 1922 Gibson A4 and A-0 #hasn't needed any.
(which is helpful in comparing others and my self education on the instrument.)
but #he improved the F5 Lebeda and the Djangolin and the #H5 style mandola in addition to some tweaking on a few others.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[gnelson651]

I'm not sure what you mean by "playability" here?

Is it low vs high action(gap between strings and fretboard), flat vs radius fretboard, V-neck vs round neck,or nut width and fretboard scale?

You say your hand gets fatigued, are you too tense in your (I assume)left hand? Is your left hand relaxed and in the correct left hand position, using "ecomony of motion" #of your fret fingers with light enough pressure to cleanly fret the note but not bearing down too hard (again too much tension)?

All these factors singularly or in combination will affect playability or cause fatigue.

[otterly2k]

I think "playability" is a very subjective thing. Glenn has identified most of the factors, but each player has preferences and habits of her/his own.

[JEStanek]

Mandolin playability is like finding the right club, bat, hammer shape for your hand and adjusting your technique for most efficient use. It'll vary from hand to hand and player to player. The best thing is to try different mandos till you find the right fit while using the Goldilocks ammount of fretting pressure in an ergonomic position.

Jamie

[John Flynn]

I agree that playability is subjective, but I will also say that a lot of people, myself included, feel that the Rigels stand out as having great playability. I can play difficult stuff on my Rigel that is noticeably harder on my other mandos. The Rigel also gives me less fatigue when played hard for long periods of time. That is my definition of playability.

I'm not an ergonomic expert, but I do notice that ergonomic tools tend to have fatter, more rounded grips. I think it is no coincidence that Rigel necks are fatter and more rounded than most. It just seems that Rigel came up with the right combination of neck profile and radius, at least for my tired old hands.

[AlanN]

And I am of the opposite - a slimmer neck feels just right.

One size does NOT fit all.

[Mattg]

I have an old Monterrey A style that is very playable. Every parameter that Glen mentions suits me but it also has a shorter scale which means it has less tension on the strings. I play it if my hands are sore and I'm just goofing. It is a very mellow nice sounding mandolin but it is too quite to play anywhere but in the solitude of my living room.

[Frank Russell]

For me, it's been Givens, Collings, and especially Old Wave. Not too narrow, not too V-shaped, radiused, easy as pie. Not to mention all three have been consistently killer brands for me. Frank

[Alex Fields]

It also depends on what you're playing. I play alot of classical music that requires me to bar two strings with one finger, and that's nearly impossible to do with wide string spacing. So I can't play wide necked instruments. If I were playing different music I might prefer wide necks, because I have huge hands and wide necks make closed position chords a bit easier. So it depends not just on personal preference but on your physical characteristics and the type of music you're playing, and probably alot of other things.

I do think there are some things that inarguably increase playability, such as lower action. Lower action has the drawback of decreased volume, which is why there is variation among preferences, but I don't think anyone would say it's easier for them to play an instrument when they have to push the strings down harder. The same dilemma applies to lighter guage strings. (For the record, my action is low enough that it would probably buzz if someone with a hard pick attack played it, and I use tiny Thomastik strings.)

[acousticphd]

Assuming instruments with good (for me) setup, what I have found over time, at 40-something, is that neck depth and profile make a noticeable difference in my left hand comfort. #The shallower the neck, my left hand feels the effect of "pinching" the neck to hold higher up in the V of my hand, and because the neck wants to sit lower down, the fingers have to be flexed more sharply, especially the index finger, to get the fingertip pressed down. #I was noticing this the other day while playing an old Supertone with very shallow neck profile, and also very low frets. #You may find, as I do, that a deep v-shaped profile is actually more comfortable even though it would seem to be bulkier.

[mjsdawa]

All - thanks for all the input on this.

[Peter Hackman]

There are two things that set my Collings apart from my Flatiron.
One is the radiused fingerbord. The other is the fact the nut is cut
lower. That's a small detail that affects playabily all over
the neck, but especially in many-flatted keys in first position.

[jmcgann]

It's not a bad idea to question your technique, which should be ever-evolving anyway. I used to get achy/cramps in my let hand until I got a better position going.
Richard Greene once said if it isn't comfortable, you probably are doing something wrong- assuming a decently setup axe, it might be a matter of hand adjustment...and as Sweet Pete points out, different instruments feel different.

[Mark Walker]

I agree with others - 'playability' IS indeed subjective. We're all unique individuals, with different physical attributes (I have tiny fingers and hands for example; both my kids' hands/fingers were bigger than mine when they were 10 years old) and abilities.
I know some pickers who can take any mandolin with strings and make it sound like a million bucks - regardless of 'playability.' (Although to be fair, I'm sure they too would notice fatigue and 'playability' issues doing an 'A'-'B' comparison.)

I have a narrow-necked, flat fretboard Lotus A-style which I can play just fine; there are - however - songs I can play far easier on my Silver Angel with a V-neck and radiused fingerboard. (Regardless, I'm not good enough on either for anyone to ever comment on how 'good' I sound! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif )

And of course musical genres' play a part in the whole discussion - as noted above. Classical stuff will affect 'playability' from individual to individual vs. hot picking of Jerusalem Ridge or Dixie Hoedown! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Certainly an interesting thread, regardless! Play on!

[red7flag]

Much of what you read above it the preferences of different approaches. #V versus rounded necks, wide versus thin, etc. #Much of this relates to what a person is used to and perfers as a result. #Also, a persons hand size and shape will enter into the mix. If you go into a music store that does not set up their instruments well or at all, you will often run into an instrument that you have to fight to get any sound at all. #Within a short time your fingers will be tired and still may not have registered any sweet tones. #I notice that some instruments seem to fight me and some seem to welcome me. I have played some that were harder to play with a higher action that had just outstanding tone, so playability, may not always relate to tone. #I have found that lower actions may enhance playability at the sacrifice of some tonal qualities. #Also, lower action can result in buzzing if you dig in. #The best way to compare two instruments is have them set up approximately the say way. #Did I just muddy the waters. #Probably. #The bottom line, if find and instrument that you both love to play and love the tone, then you are in heaven.
Tony

[Celtic Saguaro]

I also had a Harmony Monterey with very nice action. Mine did not have a short scale, nor was it ever professionally set up. #Details of design do matter, but so does luck. I had a Harmony Florentine that was beastly hard on the fingers till I fixed the nut myself. #It certainly could have used a professional set-up when I first got it! #I think the assumption that whatever you buy will have bad action until it's fixed by a pro is incorrect. #Most of the mandolins I've had only needed minor tweaking at worst. But a beginner does at least need to have someone who has played for awhile look over their instrument to make sure it's not going to be a problem without serious set-up.

[Big Joe]

Any reasonably decent instrument, no matter its origin, can be set up for optimal playability for that mandolin. No one brand has better playability based solely on set up. As you have read, there are a myriad of issues regarding playability. String tension can vary greatly from mandolin to mandolin even with a brand and particular model. This has often nothing to do with set up or action. Some mandolins are very loose feeling and others very tight and some like it one way while others prefer the other. In a good instrument properly set up action height does not produce better tone or volume. Action height is a matter of preference determined largely by the playing style (not genre) of the player. I like my action very low. I play with a heavy pick and pick pretty aggresively. I don't have issues with string rattle or buzz. I believe this is due to the way I attack the strings. Others can have thier strings raised to the top of ole Rocky Top and still make them buzz and rattle. One style is not better than the other. Just different. Some people like the noise and rattle. Some like the click of the pick on the externsion. It distracts me and I hate it. To make it simple, there is no perfect set up for everyone or perfect playability for everyone. I think "Brutus" is the easiest, best sounding mandolin I have ever found. You may not think so if you played him. It is a really personal thing and no one brand is better at these than any other. It is a matter of choice based upon the players experience, ability, and ear. I'm sure this makes the issue as clear as mud! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif .

[Jack Roberts]

For a beginning intermediate player like myself, I find playability to be a key part of the enjoyment of the mandolin. So, to answer the originator's question: I would say features that makes an instrument playable in my subjective experience are the these: wide neck for comfort on those crowded chords, radiused fingerboard for the same reason, 14 frets clear of the body for easy playing those cross-picking tunes without cramping, banjo frets (just easier to fret than skinny frets), low action, but with dynamic range and volume so I don't have to wang on it too hard to get sound. All of this together means I can play a long time without getting tired hands or fingers.

If this sounds good, mjsdawa, I suggest you try a Gibson Sam Bush. I have no financial interest, I don't even own one, although I wish I did. To date this has been the most "playable" mandolin I have found.

Jack

[cbarry]

I'm with the yodeler. I come from guitar, and I still play my classical a bit, so one and three sixteenths isn't wide to me. I traded a sweet sounding Flatiron for an *almost* as sweet sounding Rigel. The Rigel won out because I can actually fret one course at a time on it!
Chuck

[Fretbear]

All good points. The issue of fretting two strings (it's actually four strings) at the same fret is an important point for me, in addition to being able to let the third adjacent string either ring, as in cross-picking or being able to mute it, say for a chop. There is a C chord that I learned from Wayne Benson (not personally) that will really let you see what you and your mandolin can do together. It is, low to high, 5533. Accurately fretting the two bottom notes at the fifth fret, while not interfering with the the A string at the third requires some sideways contortions that "straight" playing does not. Neck width and radius, fret width and string spacing as well as the distance between the string pairs themselves will all have an effect. As far as action goes, there is an easy trick to check how your mandolin "should feel", just put a capo at the first fret; if it doesn't buzz, that is how the nut action will feel when it is optimally set up.

[8ch(pl)]

I had a couple of really bad mandolins to learn on, warped neck, bad frets etc.......I bought a Samick A (SM-20)about 10 or so years ago;solid top, made in Korea. All the diffeeence in the world. Then I bought my Mid Missouri and it is really a great player. I had sort of set the Samick aside, kept it at work for over a year, took it on a trip, but otherwise played the Mid Missouri.

In the last little while I have been using the Samick for home practice. It really is a sweet sounding and nice playing instrument. It isn't as loud as the Mid Missouri, but has a more mellow tone.

Even if I get another instrument, I don't think I will let this one go. I only paid about $400Cdn for it, with Hard case, what a bargain.

[mingusb1]

This may be coincidence, but the 3 or 4 recent Gibson F's (f5g's and f9's) I have played all felt "stiff" to me. I can verify that the action wasn't unusually high on these mandos, and also that they all sounded good to my ear and I liked the tone of them. They just seemed like mandos that required more strength of technique and attack than I have currently developed. Maybe a flat fretboard and small fretwire is part of the explanation.

But simply put, they were mandos that sounded good if you really knew how to whack them!

Z

[Nolan]

The string tension issue is interesting.

What causes this difference between instruments?
Is it the angle of the neck relative to the body? #
I've noticed the strings on my #F-9 feel 'soft' while my Collings strings feel stiff. #They are both the same scale so I'm not sure why there is a difference.

[red7flag]

I just want to agree with Big Joe. I think my issue with tone was probably more related to buzzing with low action and not a change in tone per say. Logically, there would be no difference in tone whether higher or lower. Thanks Big Joe.
Tony