Gibson florentine mandolins

[fatt-dad]

Somewhere in the teens the F-2/F-4 emerged, then in the 20s the F-5. I know there were some bad years, but throughout the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70s did Gibson ALWAYS offer some version of the scroll-type mandolin? I have no idea why this popped into my head, but now that it has - I just want to know. . . . .

f-d

[cooper4205]

i was wondered the same thing the other day, and now i can't find that website that lists the different models through the years and their specs.

[Jim Garber]

F models came about in the pre-teens, right? They were refined from the three-points into the shape we are accustomed to. I believe they always offered some sort of scrolled mandolin tho they may only have made them to order. I think, IIRC, that from '22 on they offered the F5 without interruption. Others may chime in here.

Jim

[red7flag]

Were there three points just after the turn of the century?
Tony

[Paul Hostetter]

A good start can be found here. (http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson8.html)

[Jim Garber]

The earliest F we find in the Mandolin Archive (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=photosynthesis+C4+plants&btnG=Google+Search) seems to date from about 1902.

However, in Walter Carter's Gibson book there is a photo of an F-style mandolin with a symmetricval inlaid pickguard built by Orville himself and dated circa 1898. I believe that this is the one that I saw at Mandolin Brothers many years ago.

Jim

[fatt-dad]

According to Paul's link, there is not continuous production with a lapse during the 40s and seemingly the 80s (can that be right?). Interesting time line!

f-d

[Jim Garber]

The specs on Paul's link are practically word-for-word from Gruhn's Guide.

According to Gruhn:
The F4 and F5 were discontinued in 1943; F5 was reintroduced in late 1949 and discontinued in 1980. However, the F5L was introduced in 1978 ... confusing yes? So there was a Florentine from the late 1940s to today. No gap there. It looks like the only official gap was 1943 to late 1940s. Is it possible that the only Gibson mandolin you could buy between 1943 and 1948 was an A-50?

That would have made sense since the country was deep into WWII. According to Tom Mulhern's article in Walter Carter's Book, only about 10 percent of Gibson's activities were devoted to musical instrument manufacture. They were busy making radar parts. Also, due to wartime constraints, metal parts were at a premium.

OTOH I wonder if they would have built you a custom F5 if you had the cash at the time.

Jim

[allenhopkins]

Editing my earlier posting: my 3-point F-2 with the pickguard glued to the "black-face" top, and Handel tuners, is Ser. #6205, and is probably from around 1910.

Thanx to Dan B. for informing me that the ol' gal is five years younger than I thought...

[cooper4205]

what year did the cut-away point start to point upward?

[Paul Hostetter]

Jim - this one?

http://www.lutherie.net/orville.mandolin.1906.fragment.jpg

[Jim Garber]

Paul:
That one looks much fancier and a few years younger. This is the one in the Carter book with a photo credit to Stan Jay.

Jim

[danb]

The image above is an interesting instrument. It has the peghead styling and banjo-tuners of Orville instruments, and an apparent factory tailpiece cover. The single inlaid pickguard that goes under the soundhole in the style of a bowlback is also consistent with the Orville instruments.

IF this isn't a hand-built Orville instrument, the serial is likely in the low 2500s. The bulgy body shape and violin-like purfling make me think it is either an orville instrument or a very early factory one. The fingerbaord looks to be replaced too.

The first catalog that exists shows Orville-like designs, but up until now I have suspected that it was a demo brochure drawn from Orville's instruments rather than actual pieces available from the factory. They evolve very quickly between serials 2500-2800. By 4000, the experiments and innovations settle down to a much slower pace.

I have recently been lent some catalogs that cover the period of 1902-1910. I will put some of this information up on the archive as I have time to go through it all. I posted a few images from catalog F (1908-1909) elsewhere on the message board here

[danb]

I'm very interested to add data to the archives for the earliest Gibsons. The earliest known factory instrument (verified serial number) is 2502. I believe right now that serial numbers started at 2500 (similar to the strategy of starting your first checkbook at 500?). The data that I have from a few original receipts, catalogs with dates stamped in them etc lead me to believe that 2500 was a late 1902 or early 1903 instrument. Gibson was incorporated at the end of 1902, and a catalog was produced either right before or right at this time. The instruments pictured all show characteristics of known orville-built instruments.

The next catalog has no letter designation, and is quite small and red/gilt cover. The instruments in this catalog look to me like the very earliest known ones that I have in the archive.

The early days at Gibson are quite a fascinating subject. In a space of about 4 years, the design of the modern A model and F model (minus the f-holes!!) were established and have remained the standard since.

[thistle3585]

Quote, "That would have made sense since the country was deep into WWII. According to Tom Mulhern's article in Walter Carter's Book, only about 10 percent of Gibson's activities were devoted to musical instrument manufacture. They were busy making radar parts. Also, due to wartime constraints, metal parts were at a premium."

I recently read that Gibson had made made toys for awhile in that time period.

[Jim Garber]

I recently read that Gibson had made made toys for awhile in that time period.
I think that was earlier, during the Great Depression when Gibson made toys under the Kel Kroyden label.

Jim

[fatt-dad]

Just to summarize: The Florentine mandolin harkens to at least 1906 and ran continously to the present other than a six to eight year period during the 40s. Is that about right?

f-d

[Big Joe]

The only reason instrument production was down was because of the war effort and many items needed to manufacture were not available. For example, many of the war year instruments did not have a truss rod, even though this was a Gibson staple since 1922. Metal was not available becuase they needed it for war machinery and munitions. It was not a business decision to reduce instrument production, but rather dictates by the government and society when it was decided other things were more valuable than leisure time toys. The same went for automobile manufacturers, and almost any other manufacturer. The desires of the public were second to demands of the war effort and government.

[fatt-dad]

The only reason instrument production was down was because of the war effort and many items needed to manufacture were not available.
Yeah, I got that part, I just summarized that otherwise, it's been a continuous run - somewhere out there, there are Florentine mandolins from every decade (including the 40s - albiet not too many) beginning with the 1900s. Notwithstanding material supply, there was a dwindling interest somewhere in the midst of the 1900s that also contributed to the decline of production; however, production still ran.

f-d

[Fretbear]

That 1906 that Paul posted above was Orville's last "Masterpiece" that I read he built to re-establish to anyone interested (Gibson?) his aesthetic sensibilities regarding the vision of his original design.