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View Full Version : Who else owns an f-4 gibson?



jim_n_virginia
Nov-17-2006, 5:53am
I wanted one for a good while now. And I finally got my hands on one. It's a 1920 Gibson F-4 mandolin, for the uninitiated it's and oval hole F style mandolin.

I had it for a week now. I took it to two jams. One a folk jam and the other a bluegrass jam. The band I am in has practice every Tuesday so it has been through a 3-hour band practice session.

And now this past Wed It gave it the final test for me, I used it in a one hour gig.

I love how it sounds. Itís so different than my Fern. Itís brighter, deeper sounding with a sort of resonant sound. I have heard people describe this sound as "tubby."

My fellow band members have heard it and my friends at the jams I attend regularly have heard it and my Fern.

Now the puzzling part. I have always heard that the f holed F-5 is louder, has more of a bite than it's oval holed counterpart. But according to friends, band members and audience members who have heard both instruments unplugged all to a tee tell me that the F-4 is louder.

And I have to admit from the players point of listening it's really does sound louder. The true test is those who sit out in front of you. And I really trust my band members ears. They definitely would know!

I have always heard that the F-4 is not a good bluegrass instrument because it isn't loud enough and the f-holed is. And that an oval holed instrument is good for Celtic and Old Time music.

Now for sure the chop is louder on my Fern but picking, cross picking and strumming all swear the F-4 is loudest.

Is it a myth that oval holed instruments are quieter, more mellow? Or do I just have an aberration of an example of an F-4? Any ideas?

Both are set up similarly and both have J-74's

sunburst
Nov-17-2006, 10:09am
I have a 1920 F-4.
Mine is loud, but doesn't have a chop.
Usually, oval hole mandolins will find themselves competing for frequencies with the other instruments in a bluegrass band, and though they can be plenty loud, will not cut through as well as an f-hole mandolin, which will usually have more of the frequencies that are not common to the guitar and banjo. That is the reason for the "cut" that people speak of in a well made f-hole mandolin.
Ovals usually don't have the same relationship between the top, back, and air in the instrument that contributes to the chop that a well made f-hole model produces.

djweiss
Nov-17-2006, 11:11am
I have a 1918 F4 and love it as well. Similar to Sunburst's comment, it's probably my loudest mandolin, but does *not* chop like my f-holed mandos. I specifically love the way it blends with a guitar in a duo setting. Sometimes I don't want to cut through!

-Darren

allenhopkins
Nov-17-2006, 11:58am
Don't think it's necessarily the overall volume that differs. F-hole mandolins generally have a "sharper"sound, in my experience, with an initial "bark" that decays quickly. Round-hole mandos seem to have more sustain; the notes ring longer. (Listen to the difference between a Martin D-28 and a Gibson L-5 guitar, e.g.) This increased sustain is both a plus and a minus if you're doing bluegrass, since fast runs may not sound as crisp on an F-4 as they would on an F-5, but sustained tremeloes might sound richer. In playing the standard bluegrass rhythm "chop," you want a quick decay -- that's why you relax your fingers, rather than holding down the "chop" chord and letting it ring.
Volume, IMHO, has more to do with the individual instrument, and with the technique of the player. Your 86-year-old instrument -- Gibson's best model at the time it was built -- has opened up probably as much as it's ever going to. It's a top-line mando, and can be a real "cannon," as the dealers describe loud instruments. The preference of bluegrassers for F-hole instruments is not purely one for volume; it's for sound quality, longer neck scale, and, of course, because Bill Monroe played one...

Steve Farling
Nov-17-2006, 12:49pm
Hey Jim, Got any pics of the "new" mando? I've wanted an F4 for a long time. Now if I could only win the lottery.....

uncle ken
Nov-17-2006, 1:05pm
I also play a 1920 F4 and a Fern. It's the perfect combination for switching back a forth since they sound so different from one another. I also like the feel of the fat non-truss rod neck on the F4, especially with the finish worn off nice and smooth. You should also try the FT74 flat top strings on the F4.

mrmando
Nov-17-2006, 1:12pm
I have always heard that the F-4 is not a good bluegrass instrument because it isn't loud enough and the f-holed is.
Yeah, well, don't tell Jimmy Martin ...

Sounds like yers is a keeper!

Spruce
Nov-17-2006, 1:23pm
"Yeah, well, don't tell Jimmy Martin ... "

Heck, a goodly lion's share of seminal bluegrass recordings were done on on F4...



"Don't think it's necessarily the overall volume that differs."

True....
Record both of them sometime with the same mic/pre setup, switching between the two....
I've had instance where the F4 is louder than a "loud" F5...

Here's (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?392) my F4...
I make a point of playing it a few bluegrass jams every season.
It's especially fun on the hard-core stuff... # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

evanreilly
Nov-17-2006, 3:57pm
My ole junker F-4 is 78532 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2800).
A very nice specimen, tho hardly mint condition.
Has been beaten up, patched up, but plays and sounds excellent!

bones12
Nov-17-2006, 5:04pm
I have loved that F4 sound for a long time and I love old time music as much. I have a 1924 F4, a 1927 F4, a 1923 F2 (my workhorse), and some new F4s--Gilcrist, Sawchyn,Brentrup, Rose. They all sound great. The vintage ones are light and really magical. The newer ones are slightly "heavier" but scream nicely for fiddle tunes and dance music. There is something about playing these things that just lights up your mood. The 1927 has a raised fingerboard and is a F4/5 like sound. They all smell great. Doug in Vermont

f5loar
Nov-17-2006, 6:12pm
I've got a nice near mint '23 F4. I pull it out when I get in that "King of Bluegrass" "Widow Maker" kinda of mood! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

sunburst
Nov-17-2006, 6:38pm
Here's mine.

carleshicks
Nov-17-2006, 10:53pm
I just bought a 1922 truss rodded F-4 I should have it by next week.

Hans
Nov-18-2006, 7:06am
Here's my '21, no truss rod, double flowerpot, and Cremona brown finish.

Hans
Nov-18-2006, 7:08am
The back. Love this mandolin!

sunburst
Nov-18-2006, 9:26am
I like the wood in that back, Hans.
Mine has curly maple everywhere but the rib that goes from point to point, and that one looks like the back on yours.
I need to get some better pictures of mine. I shot the ones above when I was experimenting with my photo set up.

Spruce
Nov-18-2006, 10:17am
"I like the wood in that back, Hans."

Looks like Silver Maple to me...

Early for Gibson....

Is your F4 really light in weight, Hans....?

Lowell Levinger
Nov-19-2006, 12:53pm
Here's an example of four different F-4 color schemes.
All have the double flowerpot headstock inlay and they range in age from the black 1914 one up to the darker sunburst 1920 model.
http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/museum/4f4sbench.jpg

Lowell Levinger
Nov-19-2006, 12:55pm
Would you like to see their backs?
http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/museum/4f4sbks.jpg

Hans
Nov-19-2006, 2:13pm
Yea, that's a really tiny bunch of quilt, John!
Bruce, I don't have any other F-4's to compare it to ('cept the 3 pointer, and that's no comparison), so don't know... #Sounds fabulous though.
Nice ones Lowell! Not a truss rod in the bunch!

Hans
Nov-19-2006, 2:22pm
Well, I do own another, but it is not a Gibson...

jim_n_virginia
Nov-20-2006, 7:38am
Hey Jim, Got any pics of the "new" mando? I've wanted an F4 for a long time. Now if I could only win the lottery.....
Steve heres a pic of my new baby! I love playing this thing.

John thanks for the explanation of "cutting through" you are exactly right. My F-4 is loud but doesn't cut through and doesn't have much of a chop.

But hey how come everybody else's F-4 has a double flowerpot and mine is a single? Thats weird! What gives?

http://members.aol.com/ghentactor/F4_front.jpg

bluesmandolinman
Nov-20-2006, 7:51am
Jim, the fretboard extension looks like an A-4 style not F-4 .... or has it been shortened ?

danb
Nov-20-2006, 7:53am
Jim, there are some things that look wrong in that image for an original Gibson F4.. can you post some more pictures please? The scroll ridge should be more rounded.. the points look a little off, and the proportion of width to height as well seems unusual

danb
Nov-20-2006, 8:23am
Hi Shayne, seems like a good fit for the thread so why don't we all just post opinions instead of PM.

I used to think there were more desirable periods than others, but I'm coming to believe there aren't. The very very early 3-point F2s with mahogany backs can sound a bit "tinny", but F4s seem to be pretty decent from just about any age. It can be pretty complex to judge one that hasn't had a set-up in ages too, which had affected my judgement for some time.

I've only ever tried a modern one by Hans. It was very nice and pleasing to the eye as well. I personally get into the whole vintage vibe and the history almost as much as the making music itself, so I'm obviously prejudiced in that direction

Bob A
Nov-21-2006, 3:52pm
Some people feel that the Loar-era F4s are superior by virtue of the trussrod and thinner neck. Personally, I totally disagree - I like the heavier neck, it fits my hand better. Like the post above, I feel that there are no "bad" years for these instruments, though there may be bad examples of the instrument. As ever, (s)he who plays, knows. If it speaks to you when you pick it, it's a good 'un.

FWIW, the lowly F2 is getting to be a real bargain these days. You get all the advantages of an F4 at a somewhat less fancy level of trim, for a lot less money. Of course, this won't last forever.

danb
Nov-26-2006, 6:19am
Another thing about F4s.. they are just nice to look at!

danb
Nov-26-2006, 7:21am
oops.. the one on the right is an F2..

Stephanie Reiser
Nov-26-2006, 7:41am
Jim in Virginia,
The tailpiece doesn't appear to be square, nor does the sound hole. But that could be the photo perspective.
Is that an original Gibson? I wonder what the serial number is.

jim_n_virginia
Dec-21-2006, 6:08pm
Jim, there are some things that look wrong in that image for an original Gibson F4.. can you post some more pictures please? The scroll ridge should be more rounded.. the points look a little off, and the proportion of width to height as well seems unusual
HAH! Stephanie and Dan and everybody! I finally figured out what is going on with this mandolin I bought a few months ago. And this is LONG explanation so be forewarned! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Dan tipped me off when he said the scroll didn't look like it was shaped right. I also knew before I bought it that the Flowerpot on the headstock should be a double instead of a single flowerpot!

When I went to the mandolin archives first thing I noticed is that the fretboard is wrong for an F-4 because it had an A4 fret board.

Well I took it to luthier Jim Creech who used to own Pagan Music in Smithfield VA and really knows his stuff and I let him look at it and he was puzzled.

The frets looked to be all original and almost all were flat. But it still played pretty good and had a very nice sound of which I had several people agree with me on this.

He said the neck had been removed and it had been oversprayed not refinished. And he showed me there was a very slight twist in the neck. Not enought to affect playability but still there nontheless. He suggested that I have the fret board planes down and refretted and a new set up.

I said OK and left the mandolin with him.

Well about two weeks later I get a call from Jim and in a very serious and somber tone says... "Jim you'll never believed what happened."

I imediately panicked and thought maybe someone broke in and stole instruments out of his shop and one was mine.

I asked what happened... he said... "Jim I was trying to get the frets off with the fret nippers and they were too flat so I got a small chisel and was gently tapping and trying to get one end up and... the scroll fell off and rolled on the floor"

I said..."the headstock scroll?" Thinking maybe it had broken off and was glued back with inferior glue.

He said "NO the scroll on the body? It was held there by what looks like car bondo or wood putty"

Jim said it looked like maybe the scroll was crushed off or cut off and glued back on.

Suddenly the thought of Jim tapping on the mandolin and the scroll falling off and the look he must have had on his face made me bust out laughing. I laughed a good hard laugh until it started sinking in that I bought a bunged up mandolin.

Jim then says that he wants to have the mandolin xrayed and that anything not wood would show up on the xray.

I said OK and asked if I still had a playable instrument and he said yes he think so but let him do some checking.

Well Jim called me back a few days later and gives me the news. He said the xray shows that the scroll was glued on and not just the scroll but the two points are glued on too!

I have a A4 mandolin that has had the neck taken off and an F-4 neck put on. The A4 fretboard was taken off and put on the F-4 neck. Also the xray shows the neck has a truss rod in it but you can't get to it because the headstock laminate covers it up.

he also says the serial numbers are very faint and can't read all the numbers but the penciled in F-4 is dark which makes hime think it was written in later.

By now I am speechless! I ask Jim is this mandolin a total waste? And he say no it's not that it's totally playable and with new frets and a set up it will sound great. But I had two choices. He could reattach the scroll and reinforce it better than it was and leave the two point and touch it up and it will look like I brought it in. OR I could have him remove the scroll and fake point and refinish the whole mandolin and I would have a nice sounding playable A style mandolin.

I asked which is easier and cheaper and he say gluing the scroll back on. I said do it!

Hence this seems to solve the mystery of this mandolin. It seems I have a freakish Frankenmando that is one of a kind and not worth anything as a collectable but if I want to keep it an very playable and nice sounding mandolin!

Now this is a first for me! I have heard of many ways to fake instruments with forged inlay and labels but never have I heard about anyone gluing on the scroll and the points.

Also I am not too upset because I paid about half of what a real F-4 would cost.

Merry Christmas yall and watch out for them FAKE SCROLLS! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

sgarrity
Dec-21-2006, 6:34pm
Absolutely unbelieveable! You sure do have a story to tell now.

Hans
Dec-21-2006, 8:11pm
Shudder!

Jim Garber
Dec-21-2006, 9:44pm
By now I am speechless! I ask Jim is this mandolin a total waste? And he say no it's not that it's totally playable and with new frets and a set up it will sound great. But I had two choices. He could reattach the scroll and reinforce it better than it was and leave the two point and touch it up and it will look like I brought it in. OR I could have him remove the scroll and fake point and refinish the whole mandolin and I would have a nice sounding playable A style mandolin.

I asked which is easier and cheaper and he say gluing the scroll back on. I said do it!
That has got to be the oddest story I have heard in a long time. Do you have other pics you can post of this before the scroll fell off?

BTW I would think that the reptile dentist who did this also refinished the whole thing. At least that what it looks like from yout original photo -- that finish looks wrong too. And, besides, if he did add scroll and points he would have to match the original finish. What lunatic would do this anyway?

I am going to have nightmares about this one tonight. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

JEStanek
Dec-21-2006, 10:30pm
Crazy story Jim. That's one for the festival pickin circles for years to come.

Jamie

Bob A
Dec-21-2006, 11:07pm
What a hoot! You've got the world's most conversation-worthy F4. Err, AF4? I'd love to see the x-rays of that one.

It'd be worth the extra money to have the scroll attached with a powerful magnet or something of the sort. No point in having a Frankenmando unless you can terrify the peasantry with it. Watching folks' faces when the scroll came off would pay for the instrument a hundred times over.

jim_n_virginia
Dec-22-2006, 10:13am
Yeah I'm definitely going to keep it if for nothing else but a conversation piece and a reminder to be ever careful when buying what you think are vintage instruments.

And Jim said he is almost positive the overspray and touch ups here and there was to cover up the the putty marks.

Fortunately I'll still have a playable mandolin because the added on "falsies?" do not have much to do with the sound.

My buddy cracked me up yesterday, he said I've been out on a date with a beautiful woman and just found out she has breast implants, false eyelashes, a wig and two inches of make up.

And then I told him yeah but theres STILL a woman in there!

Thanks for the sharps eyes on the Cafe and thanks for the great Mandoin Archive resource!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

tiltman
Dec-22-2006, 12:54pm
Wow, we have F-4 to F-5 conversions, F-12 to F-5 conversions, but this is the first A-4 to F-4 conversion I've heard of!!

Makes me a little nervous. I bought an F-4 last year that was renecked and refinished back in the late 50's. I'll try to post some pictures if I figure out how to do it.
I may bring it to work (Veterinary Clinic) and take an x-ray.

Cool story, glad you seem to be taking it so well.

Kirk

jim_n_virginia
Dec-22-2006, 11:00pm
Makes me a little nervous. I bought an F-4 last year that was renecked and refinished back in the late 50's. Cool story, glad you seem to be taking it so well.

Kirk
Kirk an xray will only tell you if any putty or wood filler was used. It is denser than wood and lights up like it's glowing in an xray. If no putty was used or something thin like Elmer's glue it wouldn't show up so well I would think.

I think the best way would be to just compare the shape to other similar mandolins on the mandolin archive or post and let some of these eagle eyes on here give it a gander.

I never noticed it before obviously but now when I look at the raised part of the scroll on the Frankenmando it is just a little elongated where as a Gibson scroll is pretty round. It was pretty obvious and I missed it.

But I am not upset because what would be the point? The young gal I bought it off of is studying for her Linguistics PhD. I doubt she could do a job like this. She bought it a few years before from a Pawn Shop. Most Pawn Shops wouldn't know the difference between an A style and an F style. Most likely it was done a while back and so there is no one I could track down and smash in the head with my baseball bat.....

..... JUST KIDDING! Hey life's too short to be mad! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Michael Cameron
Dec-25-2006, 11:27pm
how could i possibly follow that story with ANYTHING interesting...i cain't;but i got me a 1913 black f-4.hey,it's all original and all there! vintage f-4 neckbones are way too wide for me to have any sort of agility let alone speed. yup i even considered slimmin that ol handle-part down. then the thought passes.
but it kills me that it sounds sooo good;so i just play it slower,and with a different pick than my f5. gees it's nice to have a computer agin.
i sold a 1924 gibson f4,redburst to a very nice gentleman who plays in the atlanta mando orch. whatever name yu can think of for me,i cannot deny it. that one is a PEACH!
i played nancy blake's gilchrist f4...just lovely(her too! and she signed myplastic eastman case;i hope it nevr scrubs off.i
mike compton had an f4(gilchrist i think) when he played down here in macon he allowed me to play it;but he was listening ,i couldn't play in his presence,ya know?
i just wish the vintage f4 neck were a little less clubby,more loarish. many if not most pickers like the wide neckfretboard with the ridge in the back.

danb
Dec-26-2006, 6:09am
Wow. The scroll falling off on the repair bench is one of the better vintage instrument stories I've heard. Jim- any pictures of it off? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

jim_n_virginia
Dec-26-2006, 5:17pm
Wow. The scroll falling off on the repair bench is one of the better vintage instrument stories I've heard. Jim- any pictures of it off? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
No Dan the Luthier no pics wish I had thought of it though.

But I'd give anything for a picture of Jim's face when it fell off and rolled on the floor. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Hans
Dec-26-2006, 5:58pm
I can just imagine how mortified the repairperson was at first.

jim_n_virginia
Dec-27-2006, 12:35pm
I can just imagine how mortified the repairperson was at first.
I knew him when he owned a small music store (Mars and GC pushed him out! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif but thats another post) so he is sorta a friend. I made sure he knew that I knew it's not his fault and everything is cool.

Best part is that he says I will still get a decent playing and sounding instrument out of it ... just not what I thought! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Darryl Wolfe
Dec-27-2006, 12:37pm
Hi Guys,

I've been away for a few days. When looking at Jims F-4 I thought to myself, "This is a total fake, but should not say anything". Well of course then I find the subject has been thoroughly discussed. I agree that this is the oddest story I have ever heard. I would have never guessed an A-4 to be underneath this thing. This is one for the record books.

sunburst
Dec-27-2006, 1:08pm
When looking at Jims F-4 I thought to myself, "This is a total fake, but should not say anything".
I know what you mean.
It was one of those things where I just clicked the "back botton" and tried to pretend I didn't see the picture, thinking "it's none of my business, he needs to find out from someone in a private situation, not from someone on a public message board".

Jim, I'm glad you're maintaining a good attitude about this whole experience.

Darryl, it's something you'd never suspect because you would never expect anyone to convert something to and F-4.

Danny Clark
Dec-27-2006, 1:29pm
i have a 1920 F-4 ,been refinished at some point,beautiful one piece back,i got it from Doyle Lawson,sounds and plays great,has a decent chop.
i am mostly a bluegrasser but i love having the F4

Darryl Wolfe
Dec-27-2006, 3:07pm
You can actually see where the old binding gap was filled if you blow the picture up and study the glare. To do this surgery, at a minimum the top and back binding would be replaced and then the gaps at the "appendages" locations would have to be filled

jim_n_virginia
Dec-27-2006, 5:49pm
When looking at Jims F-4 I thought to myself, #"This is a total fake, but should not say anything".
I know what you mean.
It was one of those things where I just clicked the "back botton" and tried to pretend I didn't see the picture, thinking "it's none of my business, he needs to find out from someone in a private situation, not from someone on a public message board".
Awww fellas you could have told me I could've taken it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


It's been a good learning experience for me. I've been playing for 30+ years and been buying and selling instruments on and off the Internet for many years and before this I would have never thought I could have been had. #I think what fooled me was it was an original Gibson lable, the tailpiece was real as well as the pick guard. Also if you look at the body under the overspray it just looks old... the binding, florette and the nut. And while I have seen F-4's converted into F-5's like most I think I never in my wildest dreams would have though someone would have taken the time and trouble to convert an A4 into an F-4.

I almost wonder if someone had a crushed or damaged instrument and had a bunch of parts lying around of course that doesn't explain the car bondo Scroll and tail points.

I wonder what THOSE came off of? Maybe an Eastman! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #

My excuse is that I was writhing in agony (ie; MAS) over wanting an old Gibson F-4 for a good while and when I saw an oportunity to get one at probably less than half than what they had been going for and then meeting someone half way in a parking lot and did I mention the girl was a cute college student? # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #and... and ...

aww heck... whats done is done and at least I have another mandolin for the stable.

Greenmando
Dec-28-2006, 6:40am
Worse case of scroll envy ever!

Hmmmmmm? Could make a scroll kit for newbees who just need a F5. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Maybe velcro? A plastic cover to snap over the headstock.

Danny Clark
Dec-29-2006, 12:07pm
Looks like several of us have 1920 F-4s maybe we should compare serial #s, Elderly has two 1920s and Ghruns has one also.

sunburst
Dec-29-2006, 1:36pm
62017 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?1064)

MML
Dec-29-2006, 2:41pm
My Webpage (68036)

heres mine...hope this works

MML
Dec-29-2006, 2:42pm
nope...anyway its 68036

Danny Clark
Dec-29-2006, 6:36pm
my # 51614
Elderlys two are #57739 #55635
Danny

danb
Dec-29-2006, 6:49pm
MML's gorgeous 68036 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2918)

MML
Dec-29-2006, 9:08pm
Thanks Dan http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

bush-man
Dec-30-2006, 12:23am
Beautiful mandos.

Danny Clark
Dec-30-2006, 9:15am
looks like in 1920 thats a big range of serial numbers 51---
thru 62---?
Danny

danb
Dec-30-2006, 12:06pm
Here's a nice one I helped some friends in the states acquire.. Very nice early 2-point with orange coloring and violin-style finish on the back & sides..

F4 #15839 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3293)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/15839_face_1.jpg

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/15839_back_detail.jpg

danb
Dec-30-2006, 12:06pm
Nice scroll.. one of my favorites..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/15839_scroll_back2.jpg

Dave Reiner
Dec-31-2006, 1:19am
My 1920 F-4's are 58557 and 58562 -- not far apart.

Dave