Mandolin heirarchy

[jayslider]

I am curious to know from the mando aficionados what the mandolin heirarchy is by quality/price/availabilty http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[JimD]

Are you looking for trouble? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mandroid]

you want to narrow that down a bit , or, just #throw a bunch of Roosters in the ring
and just watch, #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[jayslider]

there are about 50 or more builders listed on the cafe. i haven't even heard of half of them let alone have a point of reference to sound or quality. i do have a point of reference with a Gilchrist,collings i've played and the Ratcliff A that I own. the lower part of the scale would be eastman or something like that.

[August Watters]

uh oh, here come the Eastman owners. Duck! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mangorockfish]

the lower part of the scale would be eastman or something like that.
Have you ever played an Eastman or even heard one?

[jim_n_virginia]

Jay they are all different. You can't go off what someone else's ear tells you. You have to judge by your own ears.

What sounds bright a sharp to one person will sound twangy and tinny to another. What sounds deep and woody to some will sound muffled and no high end to others.

If you are buying from a small builder you basically take a leap of faith. You HAVE to go by other people's ears but that doesn't neccessarily mean you'll like what other people hear.

And to just toss out a question like you just did almost sounds like you are trolling... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mangorockfish]

Gibson Loars,
Eastmans (any or them),
Everything else. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[SternART]

My mandolin can whup your mandolin!
And your Mama's mandolin too!

[Walter Newton]

I think you guys (though partly joking) are being a little hard on Jayslider...sure, the best answer to his question is "Play a bunch and decide for yourself", but there's another active thread right now about "What's the Best Mandolin" (for $5K) getting lots of serious discussion, is his question really all that different??

And it's not like he's bashing Eastman, just said they're near the opposite end of the spectrum from something like Gilchrist ($25K!), Collings ($2K-$12K), etc., no?

[JEStanek]

It's all illusion. I thought my first mando was great, then I got my next more expensive one, then the next more expensive one. This is MAS. If you have one Loar, well maybe you need another or a Gil, or Dude, or the Vintage A2Z or a Brentrup 3 point or a one of a kind swiss cheese mando.

Price doesn't necessarily = quality. Expensive mandos won't make most of us play any better. If you find the holy grail will you get past the fact that it looks like a plain 2000 year old cup?

See the thread on Does your instrument hold you back. There are no hard and fast rules. Your budget, style, goals all come into play.

You need to decide if the best mando for you is in your hands or available out there and, you need to be honest with yourself about it. But hey, it's your money to spend and I won't begrudge you any purchase.

Jamie

[August Watters]

Ok, here's a serious attempt at a heirarchy, by price:

$12k-20k:
Top-level instruments everyone knows about
Instruments not as good as others by the same builder

$8k-12k:
Top-level instruments only some people know about
Excellent instruments lots of people know about
Dogs made by famous builder

$6k-8k
Top-level instruments a few people know about
Excellent instruments well-informed people know about
Good instruments folks think must be excellent
Pretty good but flawed instruments being hyped by the guy who bought the first one

$3k-6k
Top-level instruments most people think couldn't possibly be this good
Excellent instruments few people know about
Good instruments that are well-known
Lousy instruments being hyped by the guy who bought the first one

$1.5k-3k
Very good instruments most people think couldn't possibly be this good
Decent instruments everyone knows about
First-time builders (range: lousy to pretty good)

$500-1500
Decent instruments most people don't want to admit are pretty good
Beginner's level instruments that shouldn't cost this much
Lousy instruments dressed up to look like good ones


There. Does that help? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[EdSherry]

Jayslider -- Welcome to the "holy wars."

There's the real schlock, about which the less said the better.

Then there's the acceptable low-end stuff, almost exclusively PacRim, with laminated-top instruments at the bottom of the pack, followed by solid-top-laminated-back-and-sides and then all-solid-wood instruments. #

In this category, there's lots of brand names, but relatively few actual makers (most of the stuff is made by a relatively small number of factories in China and/or Korea).

There's also the stuff from Eastern Europe, about which I don't know very much (it's not particularly common here on the West Coast; more common in Europe, as I understand it). #(You don't say where you're located.)

A step up and you get into better-quality instruments, whether from US companies (like the late lamented MidMissouri) or from companies in China (Eastman being the current favorite of a lot of people) or Europe (e.g., Freshwater).

A step up again are the professional-level instruments from a range of larger companies (Gibson, Weber) and individual luthiers.

Then of course there's the stratosphere (Gilchrist, Dudenboestel, etc.).

And then there's the whole used thing.

Obviously, there's a significant price-vs.-quality tradeoff. #

Almost everything out there has somebody who thinks its great (in a value-for-money sense; I don't know anybody, no matter how much he likes his Kentucky, who wouldn't swap it in a heartbeat straight-across for a Gilchrist; but that's not a fair comparison) and somebody else who thinks it's overpriced.

I agree with Jim-n-virginia that tone and playability is (to some extent) in the eye of the beholder, and what you like (especially for the type of music you want to make) may not appeal to others (who may want a different sound). #My preferred mando for Celtic fiddle tunes is not my preferred mando for bluegrass, which is not my preferred mando for jug band music.

[Lane Pryce]

August your rhetoric/wisdom is impressive and truthful. You should run for office with a spill like that!! Lp

[EdSherry]

August -- I like it. #Much more accurate than my hierarchy.

Now the only problem is knowing which is which. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[John Flynn]

August:

Great stuff! Funny and true at the same time.

I was going to say that I see the market as a matrix, more than a hierarchy. On the vertical axis you have price, which only represents what people think things are worth and are therefore willing to pay. Relationship to value is purely subjective. On the horizontal, you have the styles: F, A, traditional, non-traditional, bluegrass, celtic, choro, etc. All these overlap and have lots of gray area. Somewhere in there you find something you can afford and you like. That is much more art than science. I think "hierarchies" are for people who are in this for something other than the music.

[f5loar]

August nailed it but left out the upper tiers:
$20K - $50K
Very Top level handmade mandolins by the cream of the crop that have a wait list of 5 years or longer. Expect near perfection in quality and sound.

$50K - $100K
Executive top level vintage mandolins made by prewar Gibson. Not being made anymore so demand high which accounts for high price. Some might be refinished. Others might be poor condition but still pick like hot butter on whole wheat.

$100K - $200K
The top of the heap. To many it's the only known cure for MAS. None better and none being made anymore. All would have a signature label by Lloyd Loar which accounts for $50K of the price. Avaiable only to a select few of wealth and rednecks who bought them when they where the price of level one.

[hanknc]

Well, at the top end would be the handmade, aged tonewood, handcarved, hide glue and varnish instruments...Eastman!!!

[August Watters]

Right on, Jflynn -- "heirarchies" assume that there's some kind of objective way of measuring. The only measurable quality here is price -- everything else is subjective.

Here are some suggestions:
- play everything you can get your hands on. Listen carefully and trust your ears.
- remember that a new instrument won't always give an accurate picture of what the mature sound will be, although some are closer than others.
- realize that beginning-level technique won't expose the strengths of a good instrument. It takes a lot of experience and practice to figure out how to do that.
- if you're not sure, buy something with good resale value down the line (unless you have enough money not to care).
- excellent small builders exist all over the world -- it's not about geography.

August W

[EdSherry]

August -- right as rain.

The only thing I would add is that you should, if possible, seek advice from more knowledgeable players, who can play the instruments to let you see what they're capable of, and who can look for good and bad points.

Unfortunately, many music stores have a very limited selection of mandolins to look at. #If possible, arrange to visit a shop that has a range of instruments to try, and don't be afraid to ask questions. #That may involve significant travel, depending on where you live.

And, of course, there's lots of info here on the Cafe.

[GVD]

Well I'd have to say my Kneeland is good quality and the price don't matter since it's not for sale and is therefore unavailable.

Or to paraphrase and old song:

My mandolin's red hot
Your mandolin ain't doodley squat

As always YMMV.

GVD #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[jayslider]

I've aparently hit a nerve! let me clearify my question. if you read my second thread, I am basically asking how do you differentiate all of these various builders when it is nearly impossible to sample them without traveling all over the country or world! Also let me say I am not knocking anyones Eastman but,if you can honestly say you prefer the Eastman over a Nugget or Gilchrist or Collings then power to you! (actually i didn't think much of my friends Nugget)oh no! now Ive pissed off the Nugget people! obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder but there is a reason a Gilchrist is a Gilchrist and a Morgan Monroe is a Morgan Monroe ( oops! sorry Morgan Monroe people)
when looking for a collings mando , a couple of friends play them and i thought they were really well made and sounded good, I stumbled on a Laura Ratcliff from the Cafe and liked it far more then the Collings and it was less money.(Collings people, they don't get offended) For what its worth I'm ultimately looking for an Adam Steffy kind of sound with an easy action. there have at me!

[aries753]

The last post by August answers a question that I have had. I have only been trying to play this thing for a few years. I have noticed that going into a few music stores in my travels and picking on a few mandos I find that for the most part the "lowly" Kentuckys and friends sound about the same as a Webber and the lone Gibson that I have tried. But that's probably only me. My Washburn sounds a WHOLE lot better when it's played by someone with talent:p

[Bill Snyder]

there are about 50 or more builders listed on the cafe.
Count again. Just in the USA the cafe lists 412 builders. Throw in the rest of the world and then of course all of the builders not listed here and the total would be much greater than that.
No one can tell you what the best mandolin is or give you an accurate hierarchy. They can only tell you what mandolin(s) that they like best and why.

[f5loar]

I've played some pretty darn great Eastmans and some pretty punny Nuggets. Does that answer your question?
I look at mandolins very subjective: they either got it or they don't. It helps to know how to tell the difference!

[F5G WIZ]

Jay: No-one else seemed to get around to it so let me be the first to welcome you to the Mandolin Cafe! As you can tell there are a lot of different personalities here and there is also a lot to learn from this forum. Your innocently asked question has brought up some very interesting comments. If you are looking to make an investment in a mandolin all I can say is play as many mandolins as you can, depending on where you live that can be easier said than done. And do a lot of research. Before I made my latest purchase I read everything that I could read about the builder that I decided to go with. Yes it is a risk to order and purchase a mandolin that you don't get to play first but I found enough positive comments about my builder that I was confident with my decision. The search feature on this message board is an incredible tool for learning and research. Rarely have I found a topic that hasn't already been covered to some extent somewhere in these hallowed archives. Most everyone that is a member here is very helpful and informitive. You would be amazed at who reads these threads! Got a question for Lynn Dudenbostel, Will Kimble or even The great Gibson company itself all you need to do is post it in a thread or private message and you will most likely have your answer within the day or hour for that matter, straight from the horses mouth! No offense guys. So again I say welcome and good luck with your search.


Avaiable only to a select few of wealth and rednecks who bought them when they where the price of level one.
OK F5loar, #I have to ask the question, which one are you??
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[8ch(pl)]

Part of it is being happy in having the best sounding and playing mandolin that you can afford. It has to be your mandolin. Mine is my Mid Missouri. Someone else's may be a Loar.

[JeffD]

Ok, here's a serious attempt at a heirarchy, by price:

...
You have nailed it! Absolute genius. Seriously, your breakdown could be made into a fancy chart and posted in the lobby of the cafe as a guide to thinking about mandolin purchases.

Good job.

[Bob Simmers]

I got lots of good info. from this place on the info. about mandolins category under "what's the best" you can get for under $5,000. Most answers were actually serious.
At the very bottom of the mandolin hierarchy, below the wal-mart mandolin, would be "banjo."

[f5loar]

Both!!!!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[testore]

It seams to me that the rating of market place for mandos shouldn't be very different than that of the violin world. Acoustics are impossible to put a value on,impossible. BUT what we can evaluate is quality of materials,workmanship consistancy,varnish quality and appearance. I feel that there is a lot of room for expeimental models and colors but traditionally recognized shapes and colors will have more marketablity in the future. There are some exceptions I realize.If an instrument is made in Asia,as with the violin market, it will be the bottom rung. If the instrument is made in a factory setting it shouldn't be as highly valued as something made beautifully by two hands. I know Collings mandolins are pictures of perfection, they should be, they're made by computer operated machinery.I don't care how nice a routing system can make everything so perfectly. There aren't very many Loars that are without "flaws". What I want to see is something that was obviously made by hand, something that shows the ability of the builder with a human element. Perfection is boring. There are so many builders,most of them on this website,who fall into that catagory. Beautiful work being done by hand, that is what should be valued. If anyone disagrees, they probably have never made an F model mandolin themselves.I'm helping my brother make an H4 mandola for himself. He can't believe how difficult it is.He has been blown away at the time, effort, loss of sleep, and determination it requires to complete these things. The market setters should value these efforts more highly, not the efforts of computer operated machines that remove all of the factors I just mentioned.I know I've just opened the can of worms a little more, but for sake of discussion I feel this needs to be addressed when talking of real value for the dollar.

[carleshicks]

How about a list of your top ten favorite builders that you are familiar with. This will vary be taste but would give an idea of where what you have played rates.
My list is

Gibson Master models
Dudenbostel
Gilchrest
Wiens
Stanley
Kimble
Nugget
Tope
BRW
Pagonine(spelling?)

These are all great sounding mando's the price range is anywhere from $3,000 to $30,000. But I would be proud to own any one of them. I have played lots of mandos that I have no intrest in owning , but all 10 of these sat well with me. There is probably some out there that are better but of what I have played this is how i would rank the ones I liked. I think this is what the original question was asking.

[JeffD]

Get seven mandolin players together and you will have eight opinions about it. I love it!