Replacing frets

[LowGapBG]

and what do most people charge to do it?My kalamazoo needs new frets soon http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif Thanks

[Rick Turner]

Real easy to do badly!

[Jim Garber]

We are in a high-priced neighborhood so it is in the vicinity of $250-300 for a pro job. You can pay less for a hack job, I suppose. As Rick says, it is not as easy as it looks.

Jim

[Rick Turner]

re. price, expect a premium of about 25% on bound fingerboards. Your Kalamazoo probably is unbound, right? The trickiest thing about refretting a mando is getting the frets to stay down. The tangs and slots are pretty narrow, and the barbs are pretty slight. Mando refrets take a level of finesse beyond guitars.

[JGWoods]

Real easy to do badly!
Hey I resemble that remark! but it wasn't that easy...

I cut my losses and quit after the first five which I managed to get level and restore good playability- sure looked ugly at the ends though.

[mandolinrick]

The trickiest thing about refretting a mando is getting the frets to stay down.

Rick,

Now you tell me! I just finished refretting my first mando - don't see a problem yet, but I'm worried about my frets staying down. I have the Stew Mac book, Fret Works, and they say that if the frets don't hold, use hide glue or Titebond. What about that? Is that a good idea?

I don't have a radiused fingerboard, do have binding, and used medium fret wire to replace the narrow I had on there. I got it level easily enough, but a few frets I had to hammer down a bit more.

MandolinRick

[Dale Ludewig]

See? Just as Rick said- easier said than done- properly and something that will last. Especially if the fingerboard is bound. Difficult? Done properly? Minimal chipout on the fingerboard? Fret ends not coming up later? Add that all together and you will understand why it's a job. I basically refuse to do it and think highly of those luthiers who will take it on and do a good job. It takes special talents to do it right.

[Will Kimble]

It is pretty easy if you have done it a few hundred times and if nothing goes wrong. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #Expect to pay $10-15 per fret, and budget for a new nut and some setup time. #

Sometimes there is no substitute for experience, and this is one of those times. #Finish work is another.

Will Kimble

[Rick Turner]

Yes, and yes. Superglue is great for holding frets down...but you can screw up mightily with that, too. We use superglue. We're careful!

Did you overlay the fret ends or just try to go flush with the inner line of the binding?

[mandolinrick]

I overlayed the binding. Is that going to be a problem with the frets lifting? Need to superglue???

I heated the frets with a tip used for wood burning - protected my fretboard with the metal fret protectors that stew mac sells. And then pulled the frets gently using fret pullers (again from Stew Mac). Minimum chipout - just minor on a couple of frets. The first few frets had slots from the strings worn into them, so I definitely needed to do the refretting. And since its my mandolin, my first one, if I screwed up, live and learn - gotta learn somehow.

I have a pearl nut on this one - might have to replace it too. But that's fine.

This was the first mando I built - I built it a couple of years ago, and the neck was a bit thick - couple people (good mandolin players) remarked on that, so I decided to thin down the neck too and refinish it (since I was putting a varnish finish on another mandolin).

If I screwed it up too badly, I'll just have to build another! Actually, that's already in the plans....

Rick

[arbarnhart]

Yes, and yes. # Superglue is great for holding frets down...but you can screw up mightily with that, too. #We use superglue. # We're careful!
In my limited personal experience, I have gotten the best results with superglue by putting a drop on clean scrap wood and then using a single edge razor blade (dull box cutter blades work well) to transfer some down inside the fret slot. You get over a minute to set things up if you aren't using accellerant and that is longer than you think. Be careful - it is really difficult to get it completely off wood if you get some on the finger board.

[mandolinplucker]

I started playing a $300 mandolin and I couldn't see $300 more for a fret job. I figured that if I was going to keep wearing them out, I may as well learn to change them. I got the book from stew mac and dove in. I have done a couple of refrets and a couple of partial refret and levels. Mine don't look as pretty on the ends as those that i've seen done by talented luthiers, but they seem to stay in and the ends don't stick up and cut my fingers. I will work on my stuff, but I don't see how you guys can dig into other peoples expensive vintage instruments. I would be terrified. Friends have asked me to work on their stuff and I always sent them to someone who is willing to take that kind of risk and liability.

[Rick Turner]

Well, it looks to me like you guys are headed in the right direction here.

Work on vintage pieces can be nerve-wracking. I've refretted a guitar that sold for $125,000.00 (1941 D-45), and one that was bought for $250,000.00 (Buddy Holly's SJ-45). You just keep the coffee on the low caffein side the day you do it, and you lock the shop and turn off the phone. Then you just go in and do a good job.

[fretmasher]

You have brass ones Rick. I get nervous just changing strings!

[Jim Garber]

And I would imagine that bar frets are even more difficult?

Jim

[Rick Turner]

Yes, but that D-45 had "normal" frets.

Bar frets are interesting, to say the least. Martin is on-again, off-again with supplying them, and I don't know where they are at now. If I were to get into doing bar frets, I'd get nickel silver rod and then take it to a jeweler or metal fabricator who had a rolling mill and custom make the stuff to size. Yes, PITA, but what else to do? I suspect there's a nice little market for custom bar fret wire. Hmmm...

[Jim Garber]

Embergher bowlbacks were only made with bar frets even into the late 1930s. Not sure why they preferred those. I can't imagine that it made all that much difference in sound.

I also had a friend who needed some refretting on his Vega cylinderback so I sent him some bars from a basket case I had. Not sure what ever happened or if his luthier was able to use them.

Jim

[Rick Turner]

I think there's a case to be made in favor of bar frets when it comes to helping to increase sustain. There's more mass there at the termination of the string. Electric guitarists certainly notice the tonal difference between fret sizes.

[LowGapBG]

I'm going to get the frets dressed,not replace.Just ta let ya know http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

You start a thread entitled Replacing frets and your first question is "and what do most people charge to do it?My kalamazoo needs new frets soon" and then you say "I'm going to get the frets dressed,not replace.Just ta let ya know"

You sure know how to waste peoples' time. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[LowGapBG]

I'm sorry if i WASTED anybodys time on here.I was justing asking about the frets.I had it looked at today and i dont need frets,just need them dressed.Thanks anyway.I'm new to all this and i know i ask alot.I just want to learn.Is that wrong?If so i'll quit bothering everybody.sorry paul http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Scotti Adams]

..dont worry about wasting peoples time...thats what this board is for...learning...learning is not time wasted...who knows maybe you will want to change your own frets someday then you can go back a remember what you learned from this post by "wasting peoples time". Paul we all know you are a professional in what you do and I for one appreciate your posts ..some of us are not professionals...including myself..I like to read and learn.

[thiggins]

Easy, pay a good luthier to do it for you!

Tim

[AlanN]

Right on, Scotti http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[warren]

is there nowhere an amateur can go to ask questions anymore. First Rick scared everybody away from the AG column and now paul is givig attitude on this board. come on guys, this is just somethingv to do, if your time was so valuable you wouldnt be here anyway. try to enjoy it.

[kww]

Paul wasn't excessively irritable. People provided a lot of information on something that apparently wasn't the real question.

Now, it is possible that LowGapBG initially was going to replace the frets, but decided later that he shouldn't bother, and that dressing them would be sufficient. If that's true, his wording was a little sloppy. If that is the case, and he had said "After looking at them more closely, I decided that they only needed to be dressed", he probably wouldn't have gotten snapped at. I read it, and Paul apparently read it as saying that he just hadn't bothered to ask the question well in the first place.

[warren]

WHO CARES!!?? he didnt have to inform us of his #fret dress decision at all, he only did so in the spirit of community, only to be slapped down by someone who hadnt bothered to actually give any advise in the first place.
lets just let this go, and keep this as a place where questions can be asked without fear of detention. This isnt a classroom, if it was we'd be paying the teachers and wed know who they were.

[Will Kimble]

I think its all relevant, a lot of times folks get frets replaced when a fret dress would do. #Some luthiers will only replace frets and others will dress. #It doesn't seem like any of us mentioned a fret dress as an alternative, did we? #Kind of interesting to me, how we draw these lines in the sand. #

I don't see that anybody's time was wasted here. #Except maybe Paul's, he made that pretty clear. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Best wishes to all,
Will Kimble

[jim_n_virginia]

LowGap you ain't wasting anyone's time, keep asking questions. This is a great place to learn a lot about mandolins and most of the time you can get a civil answer.

As with the frets.. I'm with the "take'em to an experienced Luthier and let him decide to change or re-fret" crowd.

good luck! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[atetone]

So why are the bar frets more difficult?
Is it because there isn't a "cap" on them to hide any chips or imperfections?
I just "defretted" an old Vega banjolin neck because I might need some of the frets for my Vega cylinderback which is going in for a little tlc, so this is relevant to me right now.
See LowGap,,, you have spurred me into action! Man, for a newbie , you start topics like an old pro! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
KEEP POSTING.

[Rick Turner]

Bar frets are more difficult for several reasons.
1) Yes, no crown to hide any issues on either side of the fret slot
2) No barbs on the sides so you have to nick the bottom with a little hatchet kind of hammer or score the sides with rough sandpaper to provide some grip in the slot.
3) There's no margin for fret width to slot width slop. With barbs on the frets you can put them into slots that are plus or minus four or five thou of ideal width and you can mess with the fret tang with some specialized crimpers if necessary.
4) It's harder to shape them to the right fingerboard radius if you have a radiused board.


You just have to do some and get the feel under your hands and fingers. Some of this is like talking about swimming to someone who's never been in water. Just do some fret jobs and you'll know.

Funny timing...I just taught my marketing admin assistant how to refret her Gibbie J-200 last night with very hard German "gold" fret wire. It was amazing to watch her do most of a textbook perfect refret. The big thing was teaching her how to use the hammer. Most guys attack frets like they're 16 d nails. Not this woman...perfect and accurate hammer blows, never a bounce back, never trying to overpower the fret into the board and having it just spring back and go completely south. No ego in the way of doing the job just right. Being someone who has taught dozens of people how to hammer frets in, this was an inspiration. She was going to string it up today without doing a fret level, crown, and polish, and I'm eager to hear how it plays. I'll bet it's better than before...

I like bar frets, and I may even try to develop a bar fretting system for my guitars, but they are more difficult to install than conventional frets.

[atetone]

Thanks Rick.
I must say that I was highly suprised at how easy they came out of the old neck. They just slid right out with no chipping whatsoever without any heat.
They do have a tiny little bit of burring on the sides to hold them in, but hardly anything at all.
Hmmm,, maybe I have to re-think this.

[Rick Turner]

I use a resistance soldering station to run current through the frets to break any old glue loose and also to soften the wood a bit. In extreme cases with old, dry, and very "chippy" fingerboards, I'll put some lemon oil on the board to moisturize it a bit. It works incredibly well. With superglue, bar frets should go in and hold quite well if they're scratched a bit on the sides. Clamp them in with a straight edge or a long aluminum radiused caul like the ones StewMac makes, and you'd get a pretty good job.

[Will Kimble]

Thanks for explaining about bar frets. #I have never seen them on a mandolin nor had to deal with them on a guitar, but now at least I have some idea what they are about. #

Just curious, what do you like about them that would make you want to go through the extra difficulty to install them on your new instruments? #Do they wear better, or feel better, or sound better? #What kind of mandolins came with bar frets originally? #

Will Kimble

[sunburst]

About half way through my first re-fret with bar frets, I decided I would only do it again if I could charge at least $1000.
By the time I was done, I was getting a lot better at it, but it is an amazing amount of work to get it right. Frank Ford's tutorial on Frets.com is a good one, and the guitar is almost identical to the one I "learned on". Try that. Learning on a OOO-45!
BTW, I don't like the nicks in the bottom of the frets. It tears up the board when you pull them out. I prefer to file each fret until it fits the slot exactly. (Come to think of it, $1000 probably isn't enough!)

[Rick Turner]

Hah! Kind of told you so!

The issue is really mass at the end of the string. That should lead to more sustain of the notes. Very subtle, but when we get into that last 10% or 5% of performance enhancement (no, I'm not going to any adult themes here :-)), subtle things are what it's about. What happens when someone wins the Indy 500? They may just win by less than a 1% difference between them and second place. Yet how much was the reward for that almost infinitesimal superiority? So if you want that tiny extra bit of performance, sometimes the subtle things, the things that others consider pure bling or a stupid expenditure or insane...these things can make a difference. Sometimes that difference is psychological. But how many of us can remember those nights when we just felt at the peak of our ability and in fact played that way at a gig or session? I suspect that everyone here has a peak moment like that.

Well, maybe that extra 100% of mass in a fret makes a difference... I'm not saying that it does...but that's what's on a 1934 D-28...

[atetone]

So what is the next best thing if you had to re-fret a 1918 Vega cylinderback?
Would you go for the smallest modern fretwire available?
I would like to keep it as close to original as possible but I don't mind compromising a bit if it makes sense.

[sunburst]

Replacing bar frets with "T" frets is not a simple opperation. It requires a new fingerboard to really do it right.

If the bar frets are not notched on the ends to fit over the bindings, they can often be "lifted". That means, pulling them out, then putting them back in (not as deep) and leveling and recrowning them. That avoids the problem of finding suitable fret wire, but doesn't save much of the work.

[Rick Turner]

Mostly in agreement with John on this, though one could fill bar fret slots with ebony and recut modern fret slots. Six of one, half a dozen of the other as far as time and money goes. And as he says, you can raise up the bar frets. That could be done by inlaying spacers...something like black purfling...into the bottoms of the bar fret slots and replacing the frets, gluing them in with superglue.

I've located some sources for nickel silver sheet and rod, so I'm going to look into this whole thing of producing bar frets.