Bowl buying

[John Bertotti]

What would a good used bowl run? Any and all info would be appreciated. If this is a touchy topic my email is reesaber@mac.com
Thanks John

[Jim Garber]

That is sort of like saying, what would a good Gibson mandolin run -- oh, could be $600 to say, $100,000... and up.

Seriously, depends on what you are looking for. What you have to consider is the state of the instrument. Even in good stores, most folks, at least on this side of the Atlantic (USA), don't know much about setting these up. Also, the vintage instruments were never meant to take the heavier gauge strings that the Gibsons can stand, so many are not in playing condition. That is why, tho they may seem like bargains on eBay, more than likely they need further work on them toi make them truly playable instruments.

If you are talking vintage American bowlbacks of the better brands -- Martin, Vega and Washburn plus a few others -- you are talking prob about 250 - 500 for the plainer models and upwards of 1500 and up for the fancier and more ornate ones. Vintage Italian makers like Vinaccia, Calace and Embergher would be more like $2000 and up.

I am sure that others will be glad to chime in.

Jim

[Bob A]

I know folks have lucked out buying bowlbacks on ebay. I suppose you could get a decent exammple for less than $200 if you were lucky; if you were even luckier, it would be playable as found, and it might sound good as well.

The best I've done in that venue was to get a midlevel Vega that required neary no work to play. By the time I was done, it came to about $500. Not bad for a quality instrument. No, actually I got a De Meglio for about 300, but it needed work, and is still at the luthier's.

I also bought a new Greek instrument thru the tender mercies of a fellow cafe habitue. It came out about 500, and continues to delight. It is also tougher than the antique instruments. I wouldn't hesitate to take it anywhere.

Lessee now. The other bowlbacks have run me in the vicinity of 750-1800, including the cost of restoration and setup and shipping. The big exception is a Pecoraro, in the Embergher style, with scalloped ribs and fir-lined, which came in about 3K.

You can go higher, if you need ornament or pedigree, but you can get something well worth playing for 500-1000, which is not bad in my opinion. There is also the option of having one made for you, which again will run in the 2500-3500 range; Daniel Larson comes to mind, and Sr Pandini; the Calace shop will doubtless do custom orders, but communication is tricky. They also sell off-the-shelf instruments as described on their website. It may be that you will have to wait a month or several to get just what you want.

The interesting thing is that you can get a professional-level concert instrument for low four figures, and you'd be hard pressed to even approach the fiscal hit that most top custom F5 builders get for their instruments.

I assume it's a bowlback you want. You can get some very nice Lyon & Healy carved instruments that have a tonality in between the Gibson and the Neapolitan, for 1500-3500 depending on style and of course luck. They are delightful, and well suited for classical playing.

There's a new link (in the link section) to a fellow selling bowlbacks: Classical Mandolins, and he has a couple instruments in the 3-400 range which might be suitable. I'm looking into one of his instruments, and I'll let you know how it all works out.

In addition, springersmusic.co.uk has a bunch of midlevel bowlbacks that sell in the 95-200 pound range, if you don't mind transatlantic mandolin deals. I don't know how well their repair/setup situation is, but I enjoy looking at their stuff. There are a few US dealer who have bowlbacks now and then, but not with any great consistency. Of course, you could correspond and have them keep an eye out for something, if you have a mind to.

I could ramble on all night, and not provide you with any more info than Jim already has. Keep looking, keep asking questions, and develop an eye for quality, and you'll have a good time looking. If you can't stand the wait, let us know your range, and doubtless someone can point you to a worthy instrument in the reasonably near future.

[John Bertotti]

I am more interested in the construction of a quality bowl back. Particularly the back. I have aspirations to build a bowl back with a carved top. I am in no hurry and finding a instrument that would have been considered good to excellent but being unplayable would not be out of the question. I haven't set a price range yet and would prefer a playable instrument. The lack of good data is what is driving this possible future purchase. I needed the price info just so I could start planning my options and budgeting. The info here was exactly what I needed and if one of you is so inclined could one or both of you rate the mentioned instruments in quality and sound. I understand sound is subjective that doesn't bother me. I am most curious about instruments with excellent bowls. I have found virtually no info on bowl construction so that would be an instrument I would like to budget for. Thanks John

[Jim Garber]

I am more interested in the construction of a quality bowl back. Particularly the back. I have aspirations to build a bowl back with a carved top.
Hmmmm... that is an interesting concept. I am trying to imagine such a beast -- one would think that someone in the past has tried it but I can't quite recall any such thing as a bowlback with a carved top and I am not sure why. Perhaps the concept itself is contradictory, sort of like a Mini Cooper with a Hummer engine... no that's not it either... I am not sure why it is disturbing to think of this. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

To answer your question on sources of bowl construction I would think you may have to go to the lute world. I cannot vouch for the book personally, but it seems like Robert Lundberg's Historical Lute Construction (http://luth.org/luteblrb.htm) may be one of the authoritative books on the subject.

I also found that the Lute Society is planning a course in Accelerated Lute Construction (http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/seminar/Cleveland2004/Construction.html) this summer taught by Daniel Larson (http://www.daniellarson.com/class.htm) who also is one of the few bowlback mandolin makers in the US.

You may want to check out some of Daniel's mandolins (http://www.daniellarson.com/mandolins/mandolin.htm).

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Thanks Jim and Bob! John

[vkioulaphides]

John, I am still not entirely clear as to your intentions: Are you looking for a bowlback for you to take apart and study, as in a-n-a-t-o-m-i-c-a-l-l-y, and use as a model? If so, you can get an adequate (but probably unplayable) specimen via eBay for next to nothing. Or, are you looking for a quality (AND playable) bowlback that will presumptively give you the best concept of the sound you will eventually try to achieve as you build your own instrument? Perhaps I am missing a link in your logical chain...

I also fail to see the rationale behind the carved top— on a bowlback, that is. What is the intended result?

[pklima]

A carved-top bowlback? I hope you do make one, just because I'm curious how such a beastlet would sound. You might want to see if some Japanese luthier hasn't attempted such a thing already - I've seen photos of some wild bowlbacks from that country.

If you're going for a carved top, why not carve the bowl as well? Carved bowls predate bowls built of staves in Middle Eastern instruments, after all. It would probably also be easier to do for a one-off instrument - no molds and far less equipment required. Kind of like it's easier to quarry a stone than fire a brick if you need to build a kiln, but easier to fire a million bricks than quarry a million stones. Just a thought...

I have an instrument with a relatively plain top but a high-end bowl - a Martin style 6a with 41 scalloped ribs separated by ivory spacers. It's for sale, too. See classifieds for more details...

Coincidentally (as if I haven't leaped from subject to subject enough in this post), who has the higherup at Martin who said a few years ago they'd have to charge $40,000 for a scalloped-rib bowlback these days because of the labor involved? Don't worry, John, I'm asking considerably less...

[Jim Garber]

Here is the only surviving example of a little-known, very brief (1 month) merger between Vega and Gibson in the mid-teens. As far as we can determine this is the only carved-top bowlback that exists on the planet.

The merger didn't last because they couldn't figure out what to name the company. Vibson? Gega? Nothing sounded right. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[pklima]

Jim's photo reminded me of a little oddity which passed through Gruhn's shop a few years ago:

http://www.gruhn.com/features/mando1910/MF4083.html

Very bowlback-like proportions for a carved mando.

[Tom C]

Jim
That is one cool vega/gibson. It even has the pickguard inlay Gibson has on their early 1900's.

[Jim Garber]

That Gruhn instrument is very interesting. Peter, had you played it? I wonder who has it now?

I guess I should resurrect pictures of my boatback.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Jim
#That is one cool vega/gibson. It even has the pickguard inlay Gibson has on their early 1900's.
That is because I swiped the body image from the MC archive site. Ah, the joys of Photoshop... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Eugene]

I have played that early carved piece linked through Gruhn. Before Gruhn, it used to belong to a friend of mine in Iowa City. It was very nicely made and had a delicious tone. I don't remember it being excessively loud.

[Bob A]

I think we missed the Apr 1 cutoff for the Geva.

Carved-top bowlback? Certainly. My Greek Kevorkian has a carved top, but you can't see it. The outside is flat, but the interior is a different matter. From an unreasonably thick soundboard, the edges have apparently been shaved down to apporoximately normal (for a bowlback) thickness, just inboard of where they're glued to the body of the bowl, in effect suspending the heavy mass of the soundboard on thin edges, like a speaker cone. By all rights it should be a dog, or at least have no treble, but theory goes out the window when it meets reality. Great sounding mandolin.

As for rating the sound on the others; well, impossible, sadly. Each one is defferent, and each one is worthy in its own right. While number of ribs is a good rule of thumb for preliminary assessment of quality, the proof's in the playing.

If you're interested in bowlback anatomy, it might be worthwhile to pick up a few real basket cases off ebay, and dissect them. Of course, it will still not be really easy to get a formerly excellent instrument for next to nothing, but certainly you can get an idea of construction from a few cheapies, then go for a trainwreck Martin or something like that, to see how it ought to have been done.

I've had occasion to mention previously, and it's worth restating, that picking the brains of someone who's actually built or repaired bowlbacks would be worth a thousand posts. There's a thousand details involved in the craft of crafting a complex musical instrument that are immediately apparent in the doing, that are impossible to describe outside a shop environment.

[John Bertotti]

My thought process was to create a bowl that would use the light ti strings effectively but hopefully retain a traditional sound. The carved top was just because I feel like being odd. HAHA someone needs to be odd and I'm good at it. I also like doing extremely complicated and delicate work. As far as a playable instrument I certainly want one and Jgarber has one I am seriously considering. It is a Vega, I have never heard a Vega and wonder if it has a fairly traditional sound. Something I would expect to hear in a small Italiano restaurant perhaps. I truly know nothing about mandos. I have studied the construction of the American versions and have a couple under way. No real problems so far. The telling will be in the sound. The few mandos I've heard have only been recordings. I have heard only three cords from an epiphone in person and I'm not sure that was actually a good representation of a well set up mandolin. Unfortunately I travel a lot and the building process is taking years. I only get a couple hours a month to work at it. That will change soon. All your links and advice and comments have been great and very helpful. Thanks all John

[Jim Garber]

I have never heard a Vega and wonder if it has a fairly traditional sound. Something I would expect to hear in a small Italiano restaurant perhaps. I truly know nothing about mandos. I have studied the construction of the American versions and have a couple under way.
To clarify: Vega is an American company based in Boston. Before the advent of the Gibson style, carved-top mandolin, the bowlback was dominant, esp before the turn of the last century. Then flat backs came in and the Gibsons.

I would say that my Vega (Style 208) has a "traditional" sound similar to many American bowlbacks of that era. The Italian makers had a different sound in mind and the Germans also completely different, depending on their musical tastes.

I would say that my vega was intended to play the popular parlor repertoire of the era. Not seriously loud or bassy but sweet sounding in the mid and treble range. Would blend nicely with an accompanying small bodied parlor guitar.

If I were you, John, I would check out as many mandolin and mandolin players as you can. If you travel, seek out the stores that might have mandolins in them. Even if you don't play, study of the actual instruments is invaluable.

Also, the setup of a flat or canted top bowback would of necessity have to be different from a carved top one. It sounds like Bob A's Kevorkain might be one to visit.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

To clarify my above puzzlement (an oxymoron): By "carved", John, I understood "convex", bulging outwards, i.e. not the virtually flat carved top typical of Greek bowlbacks; based, then, on that presumption, I could not see the logical connection to the bowl. I am, at least, beginning to see the light... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[John Bertotti]

I'm buying Jims Vega! Excited!! I think it will be a great first mandolin. Of course this doesn't mean I'm stopping my building but at least now I can also start to play. Plenty of hotel time should mean plenty of practice time. It will also give me a point of reference. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[vkioulaphides]

Congratulations, John! From what I hear, Vegas are fine instruments and a fitting introduction to the many wonders of the American mandolin tradition.

Enjoy it in good health and cheer!

[Eugene]

Enjoy indeed, and welcome to "the fold."

[John Bertotti]

Thanks All. Bob A would you have a picture of that Greek Kevorkian? Sounds like what I was thinking. Is this common of the Greek instruments? Also any recommendations on literature or cds/tapes to start learning with other than BG if at all possible? Not that I don't like BG just at this point in time I'm leaning towards other than BG. Thanks All John

[Bob A]

John, if you do a google search on "Pavlos Kevorkian" and go to the mandoweb site that pops up, you'll see photos. They won't help you, since the carving is inside the bowl.

On the other topic, do you read musical notation? The best place to start with the classical stuff is to play what's written. Others would be more suited to point you to a course of instruction; that might be a new thread?

[vkioulaphides]

Wild! These images were posted by our MC-friend Alekos on the Czech Mandoweb, straight off this board, from a thread where I tried to illustrate some point about Greek mandos. The inaccuracy, of course (for which I apologize, Bob) is that the instrument is listed with some reference to me (as the one who posted the image on MC in the first place) and not to you, the rightful owner of the instrument.

All said, it is truly wild and wacky, this techno-stuff: My living room in New York, with the mandolin on my wife's piano, on the Czech Mandoweb! Wow! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[John Bertotti]

I gotta say I love the look of that last mando on mandoweb. The diamond shaped one. I wonder if it actually sounds good or is just a wild decoration. John

[Jim Garber]

Yes, Victor, I see that there are a few of mine there also as well as one I merely posted as an example.

I have found many of my images on other sites. The joys of the 'Net.

Jim

[Bob A]

No apologies, Victor. I cherish my anonymity.