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mancmando
Oct-27-2006, 7:29am
Hi there, just wondered which pre amp people would advise using with a schertler pickup for mando?

In general I play at gigs and plug straight into the desk on someone elses pa, so some eq etc that I could control would be useful.

Any advice gratefully received... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Perry
Oct-27-2006, 8:24am
I use this and love it.

http://www.pendulumaudio.com/SPS-1.html

It's really two preamps in one unit . Makes a great mic pre-amp for recording too. It's expensive though.

This unit has parametric EQ; which is much better to shape your sound then the graphic EQ found on most controls. It has lots of thoughtful features and is very versatile.

Perry

Ray(T)
Oct-27-2006, 8:50am
Hi Mancmando, greetings again from 20 miles or so to the south! As an ex-soundman, please bear in mind that any eq you decide to change on stage will tend to play havoc with what the person running the PA is trying to do. Whatever you mighht think, that person is trying to get the best sound for you and will be in the best position to adjust the eq. You may think you need more top/bass when you listen from the stage but you're not hearing what the audience is hearing - he/she is. You simply need to aim for a flat (in eq terms) clan signal. If you need buckets of eq there's probably something wrong with the pickup. Problem you'll have with parametric eq is that its difficult to set up without hearing what the sound is - i.e. you can apply cut/gain at sweepable frequencies with variable bandwidths - great for the engineer but not much use on stage - .... unless you're going into your own backline amp. Ray

Perry
Oct-27-2006, 9:30am
Different strokes for different folks. I disagree. There is inherently a problem with ALL pick-ups. I 'hate' the Scherlter the least of all the mandolin pick-ups I have tried.

What having a good parametric EQ will do is allow you to get that pick-up to sound as best as it can with your instrument as a baseline before you feed your signal to the soundman (if you are lucky enough to have one). Then you are feeding the best possible sound you can and if he/she needs to EQ some more at the board then so be it.

You can do the baseline adjustment in the privacy of your home with headphones. Then you make minor adjustments at the gig. The only thing I really adjust at the gig is a slight boost or cut in the high end depending on the brightness of the room.

To me the advantage of parametric EQ is that it is not buckets of EQ but rather little Dixie cups http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I do agree that if you have to make gigantic sweeping EQ changes then there is probably something wrong with the pick-up but Parametric EQ allows subtle changes.

All that said my favorite way to play is in front of a mic with no monitors.

Perry http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

steve V. johnson
Oct-27-2006, 11:03am
I haven't used a Schertler, but I've happily used two onstage preamps that I like. The first is/was a Raven Labs PMB-II, which is no longer made, and a PreSonus Acousti-Q. Both have two channels in, channel mutes, three-band eq's, XLR and 1/4" outputs and a tuner output. I like them because I often use two instruments onstage and I can simply switch between them. I find both of these boxes to be pretty neutral-sounding and the EQs to be pretty smooth.

I also have a different view from Ray(T) about on-stage EQ-ing. I've been a studio engineer and live sound guy for a long time, and what the artist gives me, from whatever their rig is, is what I'm to work with. That's their sound (or mine... <G>) and my job is to get it to the people the best and clearest it can be.

Now, when artists onstage fiddle with their EQs a lot, it makes it really difficult for FOH sound techs to keep up, but hey, that comes with the territory. Who knows, each verse of a song might be -supposed- to have a different sound...

Ray is right that the onstage perspective is very, very different from that out in front, and that an inexperienced player can create havoc with it. Players definitely need to spend the time with their gear to get to know just what it is that they are putting thru that wire to the main console. But for good or ill, what the player decides to put out is what we techs have to work with.

Anyway, the Pendulum gear that Perry mentions is some fabulous stuff, far nicer than the stuff I use, but I do find the PreSonus to be a good and simple tool for when I have to use the pickups in my instruments. (I usually use a mic, but that's another subject...).

Good points, Perry!

stv

mancmando
Oct-27-2006, 11:26am
thanks for the replies - interesting points.. I really enjoy playing but generally play acousticlly but have never really felt happy with onstage sound so it is great to have some replies from people who really know what they are talking about.

I like the idea of a two input preamp as I also play guitar but I find the guitar is so ubiqtous that it is much easier to amplify.

Ray, can you remind me where you live??

cheers,
Paul

Bob Denton
Oct-27-2006, 11:41am
I would definately try a Fishman Aura loaded with mandolin sound images. If one of the images is compatable with your Shertler, it will knock your socks off, totally unlike any other preamp.

Cya

Lee
Oct-27-2006, 12:01pm
Just to comment on what Perry said; having the siganl go thru any eq electronics will degrade the quality of the signal somewhat. If the signal must be processed, and the signal's being processed by the soundman, then it's probably best not to eg on-stage too.

I can understand what Ray(T) said: It's kinda like a his&her electric blanket with the controls reversed. He's turning down the heat making her colder, and she keeps turning her's up making him hotter still.

EdSherry
Oct-27-2006, 1:28pm
Most instrument preamps are designed to take a 1/4" input, but the Schertler has an XLR cable, so you'll have to find a preamp designed for an XLR input. # #

There are lots of fine mike preamps that take XLR inputs. Most guitars use 1/4", so if you want a "dual" preamp for both guitar and the Schertler mando PU, you'll need both types of inputs. #Those are harder to find. #Have you thought of using a small mixer (e.g., the Mackie 1202)?

I agree with the suggestion by several other posters that, in most cases, the best solution is to get the best possible sound out of your PU/preamp system, and then send a line-out signal to the soundman, asking the soundman to just boost the gain without changing the instrument EQ. #

Obviously, a good soundman can improve on that, but (unfortunately) a bad soundman, or one who doesn't know what sound you want, can make even the best setup sound bad.

WJF
Oct-27-2006, 1:47pm
I'm going to agree with Perry on both points ...

First, Pendulum Audio makes a great pre-amp. I've had one for years and love it for it's reliability and the way it allows me to have some measure of control over what the audience hears.

Second, I think Perry is dead on about the importance, or at least the desirability of being able to get a good baseline sound from your pickup or mini-condenser before sending it to the house. I suffered for many years playing venues that supplied a sound crew that frequently didn't know what a mandolin was and didn't really care all that much how it sounded as long as it fit in the mix. When I decided to take control with the Pedulum this problem largely went away. I could count on the fact that my instrument would in fact, sound like my instrument on a pretty consistent basis. I also found that the soundmen I worked with "post Pendulum" actually appreciated the fact that they had less work to do trying to dial in the EQ for my mandolin.

Finally, with four bands of fully Parametric EQ and military grade electronics used throughout its signal path, the Pendulum offers vastly superior sonic possibilities than the three band EQ with sweepable mid found on most house boards.

This just my opinion and the way I feel on the topic ... no harm or offense intended towards those with differing views ...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

mandroid
Oct-27-2006, 5:34pm
I use my Schertler in the Mic/line channel provided by the modestly sized Roland AC60 amplifier .
... if needed #it is designed to send the # pre amp signal out to
2 R/L xlr #or a mono 1/4".

You lose the Balanced 3 pin signal separation , but an #XLR >impedance matching transformer to unbalanced TR 1/4" jack, #is a common #device
to use a Dynamic Microphone Lo Impedance output
to high impedance inputs , like guitar amps and effects boxes.
I have one imp match, with a switch that leaves its impedance unchanged, lo>lo, if desired.

Rick Turner
Oct-27-2006, 8:23pm
At the risk of self-promoting, I have a company, D-TAR, that makes excellent preamps for stringed instruments.

www.d-tar.com

clem
Oct-27-2006, 8:29pm
DTAR Solstice preamp blender. Great versatility (1/4" and XLR ins and outs, effects loop, etc.). The Pendulum is great, but the Solstice is way less $$ and is sonically comparable.

Clem

p.s. And no...I didn't know Rick was posting at approximately the same time. Just a coincidence in the blogosphere. The Solstice is just a great piece of equipment.

Oliver Fuchs
Oct-28-2006, 12:09pm
I use the d-tar solstice too. A very good pre - but no parametric EQ (and the input gain stage is a little weak for some passive pickups, but it works great with my baggs/sullivan bridge pickup). So I run the d-tar equninox (3-band parametric eq with dual notch filter) in the effect-loop of the solstice. I definately need the parametric EQ (and a little reverb) to make the pickup sound (almost) natural.

It's a big step up to my l.r. baggs PADI (also a good unit). I would like to check the pendulum but I am in germany and they only sell direct.

Did anybody an A/B comparison, pendulum against d-tar?

Rick Turner
Oct-28-2006, 3:30pm
I don't know if anyone has done a direct comparison and especially a real listening test. I have nothing but good to say about the Pendulum, and I used to own one...but at about $1,700.00, it's an expensive piece of gear, and most of it's needed functions come at a much lower cost with other gear...including my D-TAR units. A Solstice and an Equinox together street price for about 1/3 the cost of a Pendulum, and sonically I'd bet they are pretty close to equivalent.

Don Grieser
Oct-28-2006, 10:13pm
Bob, are you using the Fishman Aura? I'm intrigued by this concept and the demos on their website sound pretty good. Anybody else using it?

david blair
Oct-29-2006, 7:10am
Another vote for the Raven pre amp. These are really great for piezo pickups, and also for combining and splitting signal to amp, tuner,effects blender, pa.
The pendulum is especially helpful with a Schertler or internal mic, removing feedback, separate volume countrols. Perfect for blending two pickups. and again separating them.

Klaus Wutscher
Oct-30-2006, 6:22am
I´ve wrestled with the Schertler for quite some time before coming up with a setup that works; first, you need to know that the Schertler does not require preamplification, but to sound good it does require considerable tweaking, done best with a good parametric EQ. I use a parametric boss EQ which is pretty much set (spend some quality time before the gig!)and then an AER acoustic amp. That way, the soundguy has a good sounding signal to work with and I have independent monitoring.
Please keep in mind that only few soundguys know how a mandolin is supposed to sound (at least around my area) and the possibility that the sound is havoced by the soundman is just as likely to happen.

steve V. johnson
Oct-30-2006, 10:04am
Sorry about the detour on the Raven/PreSonus preamps, since they only have 1/4" inputs!

I'm not sure I understand the notion of applying acoustic models to a nice mandolin's pickup output...

Thanks for the note that the Schertler doesn't need a preamp, Klaus!

stv

Don Grieser
Oct-30-2006, 10:18am
I tried the Baggs PADI with a piezo, and I never could get it to sound anywhere to close to natural--the quack predominated. From their demo on-line, the Fishman Aura takes the piezo quack and makes it sound like you're playing through a decent microphone.

thiggins
Oct-30-2006, 10:51am
I use the Fishman Aura on my fiddle and mando, and am totally happy with it.
(Search around here in other topics and you'll find lots of comments about it
from me. I really don't understand why: it's not more popular, there seems some resistance to it.)

I use it at all my gigs, and get lots of great compliments, especially
from sound engineers. They love that I "plug in", one XLR mike-level input, and
I'm done. No microphones, yet I sound mike'd. My sound is always consistent, and controlled by ME. I can compete with the big boys (drums, electric bass, etc,..) but I can also use it with my bluegrass band. I plug it into a Fishman 100 loudbox and go direct to the board out the channel direct outputs. Works great.

Tim

mancmando
Oct-30-2006, 12:31pm
Thanks for al the replies...

As I should have guessed there are several opinions, but I feel much more able to make an "informed" choice now..

mancmando
Oct-30-2006, 12:44pm
Actually, having read through all of this and looked at prices it looks like it will be well worth me getting a fishman aura. I play a fair bit of guitar anyway and this looks like it will transform that sound, so even if it turns out not to help the mando then nothing lost (but it sounds like it will help the mando anyhow...)

I'll report back when I've done this (may have to wait until after Christmas to get the dosh together!)

5to12string
Oct-30-2006, 6:36pm
I use the K&K sound preamp with the mandolin twin pickups....
SOUNDS GREAT!!!
http://www.kksound.com/index.html

Bob Denton
Oct-30-2006, 10:05pm
Bob, are you using the Fishman Aura? I'm intrigued by this concept and the demos on their website sound pretty good. Anybody else using it?
Yes. It works great with the Fishman bridge but mixed results with the Sullivan. Not sure why.

It's also a knock out with my CA Legacy with the CA images. That's the guitar on the bluegrass demo.

Cya

thiggins
Nov-01-2006, 3:41pm
The mandolin images (so far) were made using the Fishman M-100 saddle pickup.
The closer your equipment matches that used to create the image file, the better your results should be. The Aura is transforming the signal from the pickup to that of the microphone. If that pickup signal doesn't match what's in the image, it can't help you.

Tim

Bob Denton
Nov-01-2006, 5:01pm
Thats what I figured. I will probably swap out the Sullivan for a Fishman.

Cya

thiggins
Nov-03-2006, 11:24am
Good plan.

Tim

mandroid
Nov-05-2006, 3:13am
this post has drifted a long ways from the original question which seemed to indicate the guy already had a Schertler pickup, and wanted to learn how to best use the signal it generated. .. a mic preamp question,
... since Schertler is a contact dynamic microphone.

responding with buying suggestions of piezos is , I think a bit off the topic.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

as you were..

string_8
Nov-18-2006, 10:57am
I use the K4 preamp from Taylor Guitars with my Schertler. I did quite a comparison against the different models and brands and the K4 seemed much more flexible (many output and input possibilities), good EQ, low noise, low distortion, but is most notorious for its Rupert Neve good sound. The ONLY downside is I wish it had a little more gain. Note that it's input impedance is too low to be used with piezo pickups. It's perfect for the Schertler, though (and Taylor guitars, too). It has an XLR-1/4" combo input jack. Again, I find it perfect for the Schertler.

mancmando
Nov-21-2006, 11:58am
Thanks for all the replies - yes the topic has drifted slightly but this is all interesting reading, anyhow I'am aiming to buy a fishman aura as a result of this thread and others that I have since seen, I suspect that this is not the cheapest solution but should greatly improve my guitar gigging sound as well as mando... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif