Newbie needs guidance...

[bojax34]

I'm sure you've all heard it a million times by now: I play guitar, but I am planning to take up mandolin. I will have about $1500 to spend and I want to play bluegrass. I know the wiser of you will tell me buy an "A", but I can't do it, I want an "F".

My question is not so much about brands (although that would be very helpful), but I want to know what I should be looking for in a mandolin. What is the purpose of a "scooped" fretboard, and do I want that? Is a radiused fretboard better, or is that just a matter of preference?

Any other guidance would be greatly appreciated. The word "newbie" doesn't even begin to explain how little I know about mandolins. I just know that I love the sound, and I want to make it.

[mandroid]

'to scoop' is a long bit of really tightly spaced frets under the highest strings, this is for the mosquito range notes, shorter fingerboards dont cause an issue , but some folks have to have the look, of that extension, but dont want to hear their pick hitting the part above the 24th fret, so its cut down thinner there without frets.

New, ? then why argue at first the advice about how much more you get for
your money if you buy a nice A style rather than a less nice F just to get the scroll. ?
I suppose Eastman does F that are presentable #at that price, pickin' buddy has a 600 series one .. it works.
czech and northamerican builders cost a bit more for F styles ..
my Lebeda was $3K #. 2nd hand..

[bojax34]

You won't get any argument from me, mandroid. I hear you loud and clear. But I just want a scroll. Is that so wrong? At least I can look good while I'm murdering the poor thing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And thanks for the heads-up about the scoop. I had an idea that pick noise might be an issue with those things.

[Sandy Beckler]

I thought I had to have an "F-Style" until I decided to for-go the vanity and took the advice of others in this forum, I purchased a Kentucky 380S "A-Style" new from "Musicians Friend" for $300.00 dollars. I Love It....
I would caution though, find a retailer who ships/sells the instrument already "set up".

Sanchan

[fwoompf]

If you're able to get to a brick and mortar shop to play some mandolins, and you find one you like, have someone there who might know what they're doing and listen to them play it, it will give you some idea of the potential of the instrument once you have much better technique in the future.

So either hope the store employs good people, or bring a picking buddy!

[olgraypat]

I think most of us here have been touched by the "got to have an f bug," so if that's what you've got to do, and that's the only thing that will get you playing, then go do it. Lots of us did it. Unfortunately most of us realized pretty quickly that it don't mean much to "look like Bill," and sound like, well, me, and you can play better, learn better and have a better experience on a better instrument. But, that having been said, maybe you might try a Breedlove Quartz KF, which will about fit your budget, and which is sort of a modified f style ( I have one and I love it) or get an Eastman, or possibly something like a Kentucky.

[Eric F.]

It's your money, it's nothing to me if you throw it away. For $1500 I would probably take a chance on the Troiano F if it's still in the new instruments section of the classifieds.

[Jim Broyles]

I think I'd look for an old MIJ Kentucky 7xx if I had $1500.00 to spend on a mando. 'Course you could get a heckuvan A for the kinda dough.

[ben_wv]

As another newbie (2 yrs), I would say that wanting an F-style isn't a waste at all. #If everyone made decisions on function over form, we'd all have flat-top haircuts and Birkenstocks, making marines and hippies both look ridiculous #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #. #I mean, what's with all those beautiful inlays on headstocks or bindings on fretboards- what purpose do they serve? #I say get the scroll, the points, the whole she-bang, and enjoy having it.

I took a lot of advice from this board from reading other posts before I bought anything, so here's what I considered before finally choosing: #

-Go to a good shop and play different instruments. #
-Get a good salesperson to demonstrate sound differences and show quality differences. #
-Get a carved top. #
-Get an ebony bridge. #
-Get a bone nut. #
-Search the classifieds here. #
-F-holes are preferable to a soundhole for bluegrass.
-Play both radiused and flat fretboards. #
-Older instruments might show more wear, but usually have "opened up" more, which adds depth and character to the instrument's sound.
-Most importantly, once you buy something, get it set-up buy a professional. #Make sure they know that you're a beginner who's wanting to learn to play bluegrass.

If it's helpful, I ended up with an Eastman 515 from the classifieds here. #It was $800, and the previous owner had a comlete mandovoodoo set-up from Gianna Violins (NFI).

For me, the sound and style are perfect, and I get regular compliments on it (when other people play it).

My next instrument, when the MAS kicks in, #will be an A, probably a Weber. #Like you, though, I had to get that F. #I'm glad I did.

[DryBones]

you can get a nice Eastman 615 for under $1500

[Daniel Nestlerode]

<snip> I just want a scroll. Is that so wrong? At least I can look good while I'm murdering the poor thing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
In a word, no. I wouldn't call it wrong. I'd call it maybe a little foolish, but it's your money.

As for looking good...
Is Andy Statman less cool here than Sam Bush? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=28&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Who is coolest here? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=59&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Is Don Stiernberg less cool than Mike Marshall and Tim O'Brien? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=63&w=4&n=1&c=5&m=18&s=0&y=1&z=2&l=0)
How cool is Tim O'Brien? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=78&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)

Sorry if that's overkill. But musicians know, it's not the shape of the instrument, it's the skill of the player. Andy Statman is a monster of a player and he was doing things on his A style, oval hole mando that I couldn't believe.

I'd pick the best instrument for the money regardless of style (A or F, oval hole of F hole). And an A is more likely to to be a well-carved solid wood instrument than an F in the $1500 range.

Having said that, you have some options for F style mandolins in your range. Look for Glenn (I think) mandolins, look at used (Weber Gallatin might be in that range), look at up and coming or hobby-ist builders. And above all don't be too picky about looks, go for tone.

Daniel

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Just noticed an Alvarez A-800 (f style) solid wood mandolin for $850 here (http://www.cottenmusic.com/inventory.html). Scroll down to the mandolin section.

hth,
Daniel

[bojax34]

You know what, you folks might have just talked some sense into me. I just realized that I can get a Collings MT (A style) for around $1800. I just might say to hell with the scroll and shell out an extra $300 for one of those beauties. You people are pretty damn smart. Now tell me this, is there anything special that I need to know about A-style mandolins? They don't generally have a wider nut or anything silly like that do they? And will I still be able to get that good bluegrass sound and chop from an A-style with f-holes?

One more question: Collings MT or Gibson A9?

I'm really excited now. I might actually get a "real" mandolin. Thanks to all of you for your input!!! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ab4usa]

Brian,

Wise move man! There isn't any "standard" differences between F style F hole and A style f hole mandolins. There are, however, differences between builders. Both the Collings and Gibson are great. The only Gibson A9 that I have played "seemed" to be narrower at the nut than 1 1/8. My guess is that the MT will have a radiused fret board and the A9 will be flat.

[Soupy1957]

Really and truly, it was the appearance AND the "sound" of the Mandolin together that caught my eye SECOND.
The FIRST thing that brought me to the Mandolin was the small diameter neck and the shortened distance for the frets.
Over the last fourty years of guitar playin, I was getting some freeze up (Arthritis?) in my left hand, and I found that my thumb would cramp up while playing. I'd stand there and shake my left hand for a few minutes, in order to get back the control of my thumb.
With the Mandolin, I saw an opportunity to work with a much smaller diameter on the neck and the trade off was the lack of room for my fingers on the frets, (forcing me to play Lead more frequently than chords).
All in all, I developed a love for the "F" style sort of as an afterthought. It wasn't Bill Monroe and Gibson that was driving this, it was Bluegrass in general.
Never really felt I had to ultimately own a Lloyd Loar Gibson, and honestly, the scroll on the body of an "F" style is not as much the eye-catcher for me as is the Tuning Head scroll work and the neck inlays on my MK.
-Soupy1957
P.S. The "sound" is great too!

[John Gardinsky]

I own an "F" style. If I had $1500 to spend I would choose an "A" model. Hands down. The scroll is nothing more than a $1000 strap hanger. A good "A" model with f-holes will give you the sound without the extra expense. A picker is recognized by proficiency not brand of instrument. Good hunting.

[ben_wv]

Again, I respectfully disagree with the opinion that f-styles aren't worth the money, that the scroll is a $1000 strap hanger, etc.

For me, mandolin isn't only an aural artform. #The amount of time and effort that superb luthiers put into the shape and form of f-style mandos is probably the best illustration of the how the mando is also a visual artform. #Another might the thousands of pictures posted here on the cafe.

I don't think buying an f-style as a newbie implies foolishness or an attempt to look cool, only a preference for style, similar to liking one painting or sculpture over another. #As for price, you can buy high quality A's for $1500, but you can also buy high quality F's in that range.

I would let my ears, hands, and eyes decide http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #.

[first string]

There's nothing wrong with wanting an F, and at certain price points paying a little extra for the scroll makes sense. But at the $1,500 price point I would definitely go with an A--as the difference at that level is probably between an imported, mass produced instrument, and a hand made, carefully tuned one.

An MT, would be a smart choice. You might even be able to find one used. If I were you, I would also check out some younger luthiers, as you can often get more for your money if your not paying for an established brand name.

[MandoSquirrel]

At this price, you could consider Breedlove, Fine American made instruments, but Not traditional looking.

[Kevin Briggs]

If I had that money to spend on an F, I would either get a fairly suped-up Eastman.

You seem to want that scroll. Eastman look great from what I've seen, and they play the best of the imports. They're basically an import that is made with careful attention to detail, and by people in China who consider themselves artists, not assemblymen and women.

[catmandu2]

Is Andy Statman less cool here than Sam Bush? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=28&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Who is coolest here? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=59&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Is Don Stiernberg less cool than Mike Marshall and Tim O'Brien? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=63&w=4&n=1&c=5&m=18&s=0&y=1&z=2&l=0)
How cool is Tim O'Brien? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=78&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Yes...all of those geeks without scrolls are less cool-looking than those with scrolls.


Seriously though, while I do think that F-style instruments are among the most beautiful (not necessarily 'cool'), I think it's unequivocally UNcool to be playing an F that has big ol' MADE CHEAPLY IN ASIA inlaid all over the headstock.

[Jim Broyles]

Is Andy Statman less cool here than Sam Bush? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=28&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Who is coolest here? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=59&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Is Don Stiernberg less cool than Mike Marshall and Tim O'Brien? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=63&w=4&n=1&c=5&m=18&s=0&y=1&z=2&l=0)
How cool is Tim O'Brien? (http://imageevent.com/mandolinsymposium/mandolinsymposium2006?p=78&n=1&m=18&c=5&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2)
Yes...all of those geeks without scrolls are less cool-looking than those with scrolls.


Seriously though, while I do think that F-style instruments are among the most beautiful (not necessarily 'cool'), I think it's unequivocally UNcool to be playing an F that has big ol' MADE CHEAPLY IN ASIA inlaid all over the headstock.
Next time you see a mando like that, take a photo of it and post it.

[allenhopkins]

Hope Catmandu isn't referring to Eastmans with his "made cheaply in Asia" dig. They're made in China, true, but not cheaply. And unfortunately, as the global economy is now, you cannot find student grade instruments not made outside the US, whether it's China, Korea, Romania, Mexico, whatever. No more American-made Harmonys, Kays and Regals that our parents and grandparents learned on.
Even manufacturing mid-priced domestic instruments is hard to sustain (good-bye, Mid-Missouri!). For the purchaser who can't get into four figures, the choices of American-made mandolins are pretty sparse.

[catmandu2]

Next time you see a mando like that, take a photo of it and post it.
http://elderly.com/images/vintage/90U/90U-4648_headstock-front.jpg

[Jim Broyles]

Funny. I see an F-Style headstock with the initials MK inlaid on it. Nowhere do I see a "...big ol' MADE CHEAPLY IN ASIA inlaid all over the headstock." I'm am positive that there are Cafe members whom you have insulted with this picture who would disagree with your assessment of their Michael Kelly mandolins.

[Greenmando]

For $1500 you could get a used Gibson F9 or a used A9 for $800. It's just a matter of moving quickly with a email and cash when it comes available. I paid $1500 each for my Flatiron F5 and Gibson F9. And $800 for my A9. I see deals like these all the time on ebay and the classifieds here.

Just to throw more batter on the cake, think about two point mandolins. Here's my Eastman 804

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/ferretkona/Mandolins/804d2.jpghttp://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/ferretkona/Mandolins/804d4.jpg

[catmandu2]

...now, you cannot find student grade instruments not made outside the US...
Precisely. I use the MK as an example, for it retails at around 4 or 5 hundred--which I think qualifies it as being made cheaply.

[MandoSquirrel]

So, were $400-500 Mid-Mos also made cheaply?

[Brady Smith]

Good point MandoSquirrel...I think your onto something here.

[cooper4205]

eastmans start out from $460-$520 new, they're well built also

[catmandu2]

So, were $400-500 Mid-Mos also made cheaply?
Yes. But they sound good too.

[Soupy1957]

My "MK" has brought me great joy, and it was all I could afford.

[catmandu2]

I'll not dispute that. I'm even considering purchase of the decidedly "uncool" MK myself, since I can only afford cheapies too.

[Smyers]

Brian,

I feel your pain. #Been there... done that. #I too bought a more expensive strap hanger as my first mando. #I do love the F style. #I've now played enough A's to agree that a good one sounds just as good as an F. #No difference. #I would still want my F. #Foolish? #No, personal preference. #So what if I costs more? #It's mine to spend.

For the record, I started with an Eastman 615 and later traded up for a much fuller sounding Weber. #The Eastman sounded good, but the Weber rocks. #I never played even a Gibson MM, DMM or Fern that comes close at 3X to 8X the price. #Are Weber's better in general? #No. #It is "luck of the draw", or rather "luck of the build", on mando sound. #More on this below.

My advice is to pick your mando based on its sound and playability first, whether F or A style. #I personally would never buy a mando sight unseen on the internet unless the seller agreed to a 30 day no-questions asked return on it, in writing. #Forget about the American made/Pac-Rim made arguments. #That is irrelevant from a sound perspective, although American builders have much more experience. #(That is subject that has been kiiled many times on other threads.) #Every single mandolin sounds different because of the subtleties of making each mando. #The glue application is slightly different, the wood is definitely a different piece, the finish is slightly different, the graduation of the tops are different, etc., ad neauseum. #The differences in sound between mandos of the same model can be remarkably different, much more so than say guitars in my experience. #I have visited many stores and played a lot of instruments looking for an instrument that had the sound I wanted. #My current Weber had two brothers right there when I picked it out with sequential serial numbers. #They all looked nearly identical. #They felt and played the same. #All three were good, yet the one I bought had a much fuller bottom end, remarkable harmonics and rang longer. #Even the store owner knew it. #Why is this so? #Subtleties in the way it was made. #It's the same reason one Loar is "magic" and the next one is "OK". #So no matter what brand you choose, make sure you have played a lot of mandos and have some comparisons.

You will probably "settle" on one mando for a while until you have some experience... and more money to spend. #Then you will buy one that you really want based on your own "hot buttons". #I can bet you that 99% of us here have done exactly that. #Make sure whatever you buy retains good resale, as you will most likely trade up eventually. #Perhaps work with a store that might give you full trade in value on your next pruchase. #Many do. #I would also suggest used on your first mando, but often it is whatever comes available that you like, so it might be new or it might be used.

Happy Hunting!

[Rosco]

Hey guys

I'm a newbie (Semi pro drummer turned on to mando) just getting to know my Second hand Samick A model , picking up chords, playing along with stuff etc

BUT
Last night a fellow band member brought his mandolin to rehearsal, It was an Ibanez A model circa1980’s that he picked 20 years ago for $100 AUSD and I couldn’t believe how much easier it was to play, The fret board was wider and the action was so much better than mine. (sound was much the same)

I had promised myself that I wouldn’t upgrade until I believed my playing deserved it, however based on the great advice on this site and last nights revelation I am now actively seeking a better (more playable) instrument.
Thanks for the heads up