Cutting string slots in fossil ivory

[Linda Binder]

Hi,
I just ordered a husky acoustic fossil ivory bridge saddle in an experiment to see if I can get more volume and make my oval hole mandolin imitate a bandolim to some degree. I'll need to cut my own string slots evidently. How do I go about doing that? Is there a certain size or type of file? Is it something I can buy at my local hardware store or does this merit an appointment with a luthier? Thank you very much for any information.
Regards Linda

[sunburst]

Hi,
I just ordered a husky acoustic fossil ivory bridge saddle in an experiment to see if I can get more volume and make my oval hole mandolin imitate a bandolim to some degree. I'll need to cut my own string slots evidently. How do I go about doing that? Is there a certain size or type of file?

Yes, for best results, you need a set of nut files for
the different gauges of string.

Is it something I can buy at my local hardware store or does this merit an appointment with a luthier?

No, local hardware stores don't carry nut files. An
appointment with a luthier will probably be cheaper
than a set of nut files, especially if you only want to
do the one nut.


Thank you very much for any information.
Regards Linda
There are ways to slot nuts without the specialty files, but it's hard to get a good job. It's also not an easy thing to learn without someone to show you how. Some people can do a good job right away, but most people, on a first try, run the risk of ruining the nut blank.

[Linda Binder]

Thanks for the good advice John. I'll take it to my local luthier and get the job done right. I'm looking forward to seeing what effect it has on the tone.
Regards,
Linda

[John Bertotti]

Fossilized ivory is hard on tools, as I understand it. I imagine it is the high mineral content.

[david blair]

I've been using fossilized ivory picks lately, and use a fingernail style emory board for shaping. They're sort of brittle, and prone to crack. Also they seem to roughen from use against the wound strings. GREAT tone, though. Did Bandolim use flat wound strings or bronze?

[Michael Lewis]

Ivory works much like bone. Same tools and same techniques. Smells the same too.

[Paul Hostetter]

This has been gone over elsewhere a great deal. I, Frank Ford and a few others are both somewhat disenchanted with fossil ivory because so much of it is as soft as chalk. Regular elephant ivory is inferior to bone for steel strings, and fossil ivory (whatever it is) runs from no harder than bone to way too soft for anything. Remember, it's not mineralized, it's just real old. And in many instances it's heavily degraded by all that downtime in the mud and permafrost.

[John Bertotti]

Now that is completely opposite to what I've read before. Interesting. I stand corrected. Thanks

[Paul Hostetter]

Because of the sales hype and some rather uncritical consumerism, I think a lot of folks believe fossilized ivory is some kind of equivalent to petrified wood. Uh uh. If you work with it long enough, you see what's going on. I love it for bridgepins on guitars, but I think it's very iffy as a saddle or nut material.

[Rick Turner]

I second Paul's comments. Even the name "fossilized" is a misnomer. Much of it is just old walrus tusk material that kind of comes up out of the tundra every season. Funky, cool looking, and sometimes pieces really are hard, but often it's really iffy stuff. I get my bone materials from Saga, and I rarely ever have a complaint, and the price is really right.

[dochardee]

I slotted one of Husky Acoustic's fossil ivory bridge saddles a few weeks ago. Harder than bone, machined very well. Did not feel "iffy" at all. Used the Stew Mac nut slotting files (.013, .016, .028 and .042 inch.) You can certainly do this yourself but you'll need to buy $50 worth of files to do it right.

[Linda Binder]

Very interesting comments on the fossil ivory. #It sounds like an inconsistent material--as I guess one often finds in natural materials, and maybe moreso in something that's been lying around on the frozen tundra. #As when a luthier selects wood, I'm assuming that someone making instrument parts from fossil ivory doesn't use every piece he finds. #Much of it is probably not useable. #Regarding my own mandolin bridge saddle -- the deed is done. #I picked it up late this afternoon and I've been playing it ever since, listening for what's different. #I guess, given the comments about how variable the material can be, that my experience might not be the same using another fossil ivory saddle but the effect with this particular chunk of stuff on my mando is positive to my ear. #I had the luthier (the fabulous Denny Rauen)leave the same (rather dead) strings on so I could compare the change in the sound better. #It's not a lot brighter or louder. #The tone is still quite nice and well rounded on my mandolin (a Breedlove Orca) but it seems to be brighter and slightly louder. #It definitely has more sustain. #Was the improvement worth the $? #I think so --not hugely different but I like the result. #Thanks again for your insights.

[thunderplucker]

HI Folks,

I don't really reply or participate in the message board much these days. I am very busy with my work. I wan't to clarify some things that folks have said here in this post. First of all, there are three major types of "fossilized ivory" and they are very different from each other. Mastadon and mamouth are the closest to each other. They are similar to elephant ivory I have worked with. They are alike in that they are both very hard and brittle. They have a tendancy to be more "iffy" They are not that great for saddles since the wound strings have a tendancy to cut in and make for some raspy tone. Walrus is the other and seems to be much more solid and a bit softer but not as soft as bone. It is IMHO the only ivory for saddles and nuts. There are a few key things to know if you are buying it for saddles and or nuts. Fossil walrus fall into three catagories....buried and stable, suface, and beech wash. The buried stuff is very stable and the core is indeed minerialized but you want to use mostly or all dentin layer, which is the outer layer between the core and the enamel on the very outer layer. This is all considdering that it was handled propertly from when it was retrieved till you need to use it. Suface stuff seems to be really brittle and chaulky and not usable. The beech wash is mostly unsueable and is basically mineralized core that has had its enamel and dentin worn off. I have been buying and carving ivory for quite a while. I live in Alaska and have seen it all when it come to this material. I am not saying to say I am some kind of expert, but I have made over 2000 mandolin saddles , hundreds of guitar saddles and thouands of nuts. I also have made tons of carvings and jewelry pieces. A good friend of mine has a bead carving business and I have seen quite a bit of it through him. I think that walrus ivory speaks for itself when it comes to instrument parts but as Hrimaly said " As when a luthier selects wood, I'm assuming that someone making instrument parts from fossil ivory doesn't use every piece he finds. Much of it is probably not useable." I sort through tons of material to get the right stuff. Now, what I buy is almost always consistantly great. I know what to look for and have the benefit of looking through rooms and stacks of this stuff. The point here is that Walrus ivory is a great bridge saddle and nut material if you get the right stuff. I have had only one problem with a mandolin saddle since I have been in business and I happily replaced it. I have many luthiers that buy from me and they have great results. I don't however sell raw material for the inconsistancy reasons. I only sell blanks that are clearly solid material. You need to cut into it to really know what is inside. If you were ordering raw uncut bones from Saga, you would see the same inconsistancies. That is why they also sell blanks that are pre cut. Sorry for the ramble, just wanted to clarify things. I hope this helps. Oh, Michael had right....it is about the same as tooling bone. Not as hard on tools and blades as people think. I only wet cut chunks that are very large and it is mostly to extend blade life not really for lubrication. Thanks for your patience in reading this, I am in a bit of a rush...... and sorry for the ramble. Happy pickin and building out there folks. Take this for what it is worth.

Kurt Gisclair
Husky Acoustics

[Frank Russell]

I have bought and used four nuts, one Brekke insert, and two saddles made from fossilized walrus ivory from Kurt Gisclair, and I highly recommend it. If it's good enough to be sold at Greg Boyd's, then that's all the recommendation I need. I have been impressed with the improvement in tone and volume that the ivory gave each and every mandolin I used it on. My local luthier, who slotted the nuts was suitably impressed with the hardness of the material, and I never have experienced any problems with it whatsoever. I do not speak for all fossilized ivory, but the stuff Kurt sells is top notch, and he is a pleasure to do business with. Thanks, Frank

[Linda Binder]

Thanks for your input Kurt. I have a question. The bridge saddle I have has visible layers. Is the lighter layer on the top the dentin? Here is a picture.

[kestrel]

Oh, Lord.

[kestrel]

Last year, my wife an I had the opportunity to spend a momth on the outer moon of Venusius. Just before we were scheduled to depart for our journey back to Earth, a small Venusian boy presented me with a two kilo block of ancient, antiquilised furbisher tusk, claiming that it would make 1920s Gibson mandolins sing like angels in heat. Do you think I could use this as nut material for my Kentucky 380. without fearing revenge from the gods?

Thanks in advance.

[Linda Binder]

Well, "phantom4" in response to your sarcastic post let me point out that my aim was, since I'm performing Brazilian music, to get a bit closer to the tone of a bandolim, an instrument which traditionally uses a bone or ivory bridge and/or bridge saddle. #Different materials do create different results in tone. #That's not "science fiction". #I'm happy with the result of the change to a fossil ivory saddle and I'm interested in understanding the materials which help create the sound of my mandolin. #I'm so terribly sorry if you think that's frivolous.<---sarcasm.
Thanks in advance. <--- more sarcasm.

[kestrel]

Hrimaly-

I don't think you're experimentint with different materials is "frivolous". Not at all. I recently replaced a really worthless bridge with one of Cumberland Acoustic's ebony bridges. The results were astonishing! Tone, sustain, volume? Astonishing! Prior to choosing the CA bridge, I had communicated with a supplier of "fossilized ivory" bridges. This dude wanted $200.00 for a bridge for a TC Octave Mandolin. $200.00 f******-bucks for a bridge! Gimmie a break! $200.00 for a mandolion bridge? His whine was that he paid $X.00 an ounce for the stuff. Are you that stoopid to believe that that stuff is that valuable? Me? I'm not! Don't ever intend to be! He**, I make bridge saddles and nuts out of bones from Pet Smart, an' ain't had a complaint yet, $200.00 for a bridge? Yeah, right! Brazilian music? Shmazilian music? Sorry friend - but real life is real life! I don't buy into the hype. If that's wrong - shoot me. If you feel that I'm being sarcastic (and, I don't mean to be) - again - shoot me.

[Michael Lewis]

The white portion is the outside of the tusk. The more translucint part is from the inside of the tusk. It is all pretty hard and very usable. That is a pretty saddle!

[Linda Binder]

Thanks for the information Michael. I think it's a nice looking saddle too...and it matches the ivory binding well.

[John Bertotti]

Very nice!

[Rick Turner]

Phantom 4, you seem to be very self-satisfied with trying to make other people seem stupid and beneath your contempt. How about lightening up and letting folks spend money as they see fit? As for myself, I see my time as worth more than whatever I'd save by buying bone chunks from PetSmart. I don't want to spend more time than necessary sawing, sanding, and grinding that stuff, and the lungs of my employees are valuable to me. If you've got all day to smell that junk and deal with it, fine, but, jeez, that's your choice. Why waste bandwidth putting people down who choose some other path?

Look, "fossilized" ivory and bone is jewelry on instruments. Most of us agree that there's likely little real tonal difference between that and good, dense cowbone, bleached or not. So it's "bling". So what? So is a necklace or a bracelet or peghead inlay. If someone wants to spend $200.00 on a bridge or bridge top, so what? It's pretty...and maybe that's all the justification anybody needs.

And how long does it take to turn a dog bone into a well shaped nut blank? Given that I can buy them for a couple of bucks and have them delivered to my door, I'd say that cutting from the cow is not very cost-efficient. Hey, we could all fell our own trees, too, but I'd rather be building instruments than making parts that others can do as well for less money.

[Linda Binder]

Well, just for the record my bridge saddle was a bit less than half of that $200 figure being bandied about. I can't recall buying anything music related for the sole reason that it was "pretty". I was after tone and volume....but hey I accidentally scored some bling! #I may have to leave my mandolin out of the case more often, maybe find a way to wear it when I go out....