Bowlbacks of Note

[Jim Garber]

I was not sure where to put this -- the Calace thread did not seem appropriate -- but figured it should be noted for any one interested in pursuing it. Perhaps this came be the general section for these mandolins.

Mandolino Lombardo (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3718792492) by Carlo Albertini e Figli

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3718999379) is another one of interest.

Despite the seller's conjecture, I am not so sure that it is Italian, at least the inlays looks pretty American as does the fretboard shape, esp at the higher reaches.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, curious... Perhaps more curious is the fact that the buyer is located in Italy— Rome, if I remember correctly. A "trend reversal"? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Eugene]

Wow, that last piece is intriguing, but pretty wrecked. #I agree, it does look like an American piece to me. #The only place I've seen a fingerboard terminus of that shape is on early mandolins labeled A.C. Fairbanks.

[Bob A]

There's a fellow in Uruguay(!) who's listed a mandolin by Balsamo that seems quite attractive. I suspect Balsamo to be a transplant - the mandolin was made in Argentina, but looks like a very high-end Italian product. Ebay number 3721032838. (Someone ought to tell me how to make these links work).

[Jim Garber]

Balsamo mandolin link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3721032838).

Jim

[Bob A]

How'dja do that, Jim?

[Jim Garber]

Click on the "http://" button above the reply window. Paste in the Web site address, hit "OK", then it will prompt you to type in whatever word you want to link it to. Hit "OK" again. It will then appear with the proper code in the reply window.

The confusing part is that it will appear after the last typed word even if you move your cursor. You sometimes have to cut and paste it to move it to where you want it.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Just came up: A nice Vega.

Click here: #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3721193732&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

[Jim Garber]

Looks like a Style No. 2 Vega, 19 rosewood ribs, "Sound hole inlaid with green brilliant pearl" according to the catalog.

BTW, I emailed the seller with the usual string caveat.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

It seems to be in a really good condition. Very nice!

Alex.

[Bob A]

Ebay is awash in goodies. At this writing there's a Lyon & Healy style A at $1500, with only one bid; it sells in 18 hrs.

There's a Vinaccia, a Salsedo (a bit worse for wear), a De Meglio clone, and a raft of US bowls, including a Martin 6A, seen hereabouts on occasion.

Good thing I'm broke. Care to join me?

[Jim Garber]

Here is another interesting bowlback from Catania. Label says Giuseppe Indelicato (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3721714189).

I love that bird on the pickguard. Too bad it is in Ukraine. (The mandolin, not the bird)

Jim

[grsnovi]

The back on that Balsamo looks very nearly identical to my Style 4 Vega

[John Bertotti]

Being new I haven't seen many bowl backs. This site has some that look marvelous to me. It is a site from a luthier who restores bowl backs and it even has some humor. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.oldmandolin.com/

[Jim Garber]

This is the famous Carlo M who has been referred to on this board a number of times.

Jim

[bratsche]

Here's a rare Martin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3721625610&rd=1) on eBay, with interesting fretboard inlay.

bratsche

[Eugene]

Ah, you tempt me bratsche, the mid-range voiced harpie!

[Jim Garber]

The scary part of this seller's description (other than his use of all caps) is this: "IT APPEARS THAT THE BRIDGE HAD BEEN REGLUED AT ONE TIME."

I emailed him to find outwhat he means by that. and the usual string caveat. I am getting tired of saying it.

Aaaaargh.

Jim

[Eugene]

Let's hope the bridge simply has been shifted to correct intonation, the original position left a "footprint," and no glue whatsoever was involved.

[bratsche]

Jim - you should simply type out your "usual string caveat' once and for all - save to a file, and copy/paste as necessary.

Eugene - that's what I was thinking too. An old footprint in the varnish could look like some sort of glue residue, to an inexperienced examiner. Hopefully.

bratsche http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[vkioulaphides]

... or maybe he MEANT it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif In fact, when I acquired my current double-bass, some previous owner had in fact driven a nail through the top, just in case the soundpost would wander away... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But, let us be optimistic.

[Bob A]

Yeah, my eternally-in-restoration Vinaccia had its bridge glued down, in addition to other problems. (Sides shrunk so the braces popped through, for example). I haven't had the heart to bug TC about it for the last month or so, but rumor has it that it'll be finished real soon now, like the software vendors used to say.

I'm sitting on my hands regarding the current Vinaccia on the 'bay; after all, I do own one, even if I've never seen it.

[bratsche]

heeeeheeee... I once had a student, long ago and far away. He showed up with his soundpost glued into his violin, after his father had drilled a hole into the top to get ahold of it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif His parents were too cheap to get proper repairs done, so I saw quite a few, ahem... "weird things" with his instrument, but that was the one that took the cake. Let's say it put me off teaching for life, at the tender age of 17.

bratsche

[Bob A]

Time's running out for the maple Vinaccia - 2 hrs to go, and it's jumped to $1005. The Balsamo in Uruguay has 6 hrs or so left; no one has bid on it yet - maybe it can be yours for 250.

A third item I'd been eying greedily is a workingman's Ceccherini, with 3 days to run. It's at 72 pounds; the seller says it has only a single soundboard. I was seriously gonna pursue it, mandopig that I am, but I wanted the double board. Given Victor's experiences, it'd be a nice item at two or three times the current asking, perhaps.

[Jim Garber]

Can't seem to locate the "workingman's Ceccherini" -- do you have a URL? -- I am not interested at the moment in pursuing, but I always like to play the game at home, so to speak.

The Uruguayan guy told me that shipping would be about $76. Not sure who this maker is but itlooks all right. I don't knwo much about uruguay either tho this seller has a 100% rating with 65 transactions.

The Vinaccia will go for close to $2k, I predict.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

The Vinaccia will go for close to $2k, I predict.
Hey, I am not quite as dumb as I look, eh? It closed at $1900. Seems like a war of relatively new (to eBay) Italian bowlback enthusiasts. Either that or they were reading our threads.

Anyone out there?

Jim

[Bob A]

Hi Jim

Most folks agree that I'm "out there".

Workingman's Cccherini: type "mandolin walnut" at ebay and it'll appear. I don't think it's really walnut, but who knows.

Tried to cut and paste, but my scissors just bounce off the monitor.

Glad I didn't get sucked into the Vinaccia.

[vkioulaphides]

Just for "ogling value", can someone post the URL of said (and gone) Vinaccia?

And no, I, too, doubt the "walnut" bit regarding the Ceccherini. It is virtually identical to mine, other than some curious crudeness to the finish, some rough edges, and the de Meglio-esque bar across the strings beneath the bridge— vs. that is, the Ceccherini-esque metal "anchors" holding the strings down to the soundboard(s). But, then again, the characteristics of mine may go hand in hand with the "double-soundboard model" it is and all its correlated paramaters and gizmos.

Somehow, the "workingman's" designation falls short of some, ehm... more substantive description.

[Jim Garber]

Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3720981125&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

[vkioulaphides]

Many thanks, Jim.

I must admit I am not on the MAS-path at present. A grueling run at the opera has left me starved not for mandolins but for some desperately needed mandolin-playing.

Not to mention that the check has not cleared yet... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Jim Garber]

Victor,
I know exactly what you mean. I have to stop looking and start playing more. And I need to put some money toware fixing the ones I have.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Another rather plain figlio Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3722915120) (ostensibly) just arrived on eBay. This one in Napoli with very small pics. I asked for larger ones esp of the cracks.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Workingman's Cccherini: type "mandolin walnut" at ebay and it'll appear. I don't think it's really walnut, but who knows.
The auction on the Ceccherini (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3721523096&category=10179&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1) has just ended, and it looks like I'll be joining Victor in the C owners' club imminently. #I just hope it's playable without too much work; if it is, that price should be a good deal. #I'll give an update once I got it in my hands.

Now, the next question is: how can I get decent light classical strings in the UK? Any ideas? A quick web search came up blank, except for Newtone Lights. #I have actually used them before on my mother's Miroglio, but I thought they were a bit too light even for an old bowlback -- they're 0.008 to 0.030. #Does anybody know a UK web shop for, say, Lenzners (or indeed a European one with decent postage rates to the UK)?

Martin
(with many thanks to Victor for his kind off-board advice!)

[Jim Garber]

It looks like the Vinaccia I mentioned above has a neck that had been at the least cracked or possibly broken off altogether. The seller says that he found a luther in Napoli that would do all the work for 400 euros. Sounds about right for the amount of work that would need to be done to make it playable.

Congratulations to Martin for his new Ceccherini. May it make wonderful music.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Please also accept my on-board congratulations, Martin. I hope that this instrument warms your heart and life like only a sweet-singing mandolin can!

[Bob A]

Suddenly Ceccherinis abound! Congratulations on your new instrument, Martin. Sorry I have no info on string availability.

I just noticed another Ceccherini; appeared in the new Classical Mandolins site.

Watch this space for more news on Ceccherinis.

[Jim Garber]

Here is another Ceccherini clone (http://www.pamelasmusic.co.uk/images/Forsale/string/mandolins/M093.htm). This one at Pamela's Music in the UK. Labelled L. Romito & F. Carbone, 1900. Has the side vents and the characteristic pickguard. How many disciples of Umberto were there?

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

The Albertini Lombardian is on sale again. Let´s see what it does. Click on the smily to get there fast! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3723487675&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting).


Jim, am I right in thinking that you meant that the above mentioned "clone" looks like a De Meglio mandolin?

Best,

Alex

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello MartinJonas,

I see you are ´on line´! The Ceccherini you recently aquired looks like a fine instrument to me.

Congratulations!


And regards,

Alex

PS. It looks like the top is lightly shaved with sandpaper (just a little bit) and that afterwards the soundboard has been given a thin varnish. Is that the case?

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"the soundboard has been given a thin varnish"

In fact, Alex, that was one of the remarks I made to Martin off-board, as he was considering buying this instrument. I have seen that done to more than a few, exactly as you describe: a light sanding of the top, to remove the patina, then a thin coat of varnish.

The surface of the bowl also looked a bit rough, making me suspect the later application of some varnish in order to "smooth out" the original, which may have chipped away over the years.

Still, the instrument looks fundamentally healthy. I hope it sounds as healthy as it looks!

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes, that could also very well be possible, but as you say the Ceccherini looks just great! These are very fine instruments.

Just came for sale at eBay England another cav.Giovanni de Meglio e figlio. To view it, click here: http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3723503989&rd=1)

Best, Alex

[Martin Jonas]

Hello MartinJonas,

I see you are ´on line´! The Ceccherini you recently aquired looks like a fine instrument to me.

Congratulations!
(...)

PS. It looks like the top is lightly shaved with sandpaper (just a little bit) and that afterwards the soundboard has been given a thin varnish. Is that the case?
Thanks, Alex!

I haven't received the Ceccherini yet -- it'll probably be another week for the seller to clear the check and send the mandolin to me. I'll let you know about the top once I receive it and I'll also post some more photos.

Concerning strings, I think I'll try to get Lenzners (Consort or lights, I haven't decided yet). I've had a look at your homepage, Alex, and found the e-mail link to Henk van den Broek as a source for the Lenzners (if my Dutch is right, that is). I have e-mailed him to ask if he does international orders to the UK, which, if he does, should be the easiest way of getting hold of them for me.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Just came for sale at eBay England another cav.Giovanni de Meglio e figlio. To view it, click here: http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3723503989&rd=1)
So strange and annoying when seller provide such small pictures and none of details.

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes I agree completely, Jim!

The mandolin looks like it hasn´t been toughed for ages. I can hardly see any frets, so they are probably oxidized through the years.

The only thing I miss is the "string-tentioner" beneath the bridge.


Greetings,

Alex

PS. Romito & Carbone were apprentices of the De Meglio workshop in Neapels.

[Jim Garber]

Here's a rare Martin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3721625610&rd=1) on eBay, with interesting fretboard inlay.
The one that bratsche mentioned went for $1600+. Sounds like a decent price. Like everything else, on eBay, one begets another. Tak a look at another Martin Style 5 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3723384155).

This seller is hedging his bets with a $2500 starying bid. I predict no bids on this one but a late-in-the-game, behind-the-scenes deal that shuts the auction down.

Actually, this seller also has a Style E (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3723338205) mandolin, tho he insists on calling them ukuleles. Prob because he in in Hawaii.

Ah, the entertainment of eBay.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"This seller is hedging his bets..."

Erstwhile an avid student of the free market, I fail to see the effectiveness of such "hedging". Posting something, anything on eBay comes with a cost, proportional to the opening ask price; why, then, open with such an unreasonable minimum ask?

An expert seller on the other hand, who might in fact have hard knowledge of pricing, might have approached a dealer to act as an intermediary— I do not, that is, question whether said Martin deluxe is worth the 2.5K; I AM questioning the avenue this seller is pursuing.

If you overprice in order to strike a deal "on the underbelly" of any predictable price-curve, you are effectively merely announcing that you have an instrument for sale, not initiating a #bona fide auction. In the seller's position, I would simply post the instrument on the Café's classifieds, on CMSA's magazine, or elsewhere of that sort, as a "best offer" sale, without any binding "put/call" clause: If not satisfied with the best offer, I could always hold on to the merchandise.

My guess, corroborated by the hilarious "ukelele" subtitle: Forgive them, O mando-community; they just don't know..."

[Bob A]

Well, I mentioned Ceccherini news earlier: as luck(?) would have it, I was able (not unexpectedly, but a LOT sooner than I figured) to pry the rococo Ceccherini that was posted on Bernunzio's site (pictures now evaporated) loose from John's collection. (He's too good a dealer to actually hang onto the instruments he attempts to collect!).

It arrived yesterday, and is a veritable jewel-box of an instrument. In nearly perfect condition, the only flaws being a couple chips on the tortoise trim: one from the plate that covers the ends of the strings, one on the edge of the pickguard, and a couple tiny ones on the binding.

Double board, of course; good intonation, wonderful delicate sound, with a surprisingly decent bass. I suspect it is not capable of the volume I can pull from the Pecoraro, but it may be that I ought to change the stringing before I set that in stone. I'm very pleased to report that it gives every evidence of actually having been played - there's finish wear all along the thumb side of the neck. But that's all.

There are no soundholes in the side of the bowl, which makes me wonder whether the bowls so marked might have originated in the De Meglio establishment, or perhaps there was a common source for them?

At any rate, it is sort of breathtaking to hold and play a piece which seems more to belong in a museum than in my living room. Certainly it is a throwback to an era now vanished, perhaps for good and all; though I suppose there are a few luthiers still extant who could produce or reproduce such an instrument, I doubt that there would be a market for something like this, even if you could get the now-proscribed materials with which to fashion it.

It is comforting to know that Sr Ceccherini was capable of forming such a piece, and that. ornament aside, the piece itself is a worthy example of what a mandolin should sound and play like. (Did I mention the perfect action? It is SO thrilling to get a hundred-year-old instrument that has no need to visit the restorer; that was obviously cared for for its entire existence; that could be taken for new if only it hadn't been played enough to show signs of use).

I've now reached critical mass on these things: Tom Crandall tells me he has only to apply a few more layers of French polish to the Vinaccia he's been restoring for the last 18 months, and it'll be ready to ship. Fortunately there are a couple instruments I can send off to him for his magic touch. Now I won't mind at all if he spends the next couple years working on them, as I'll have more than enough toys to play with, meanwhile.

That said, I assume you all have seen Onorato's ad for a Cristofaro in the classifieds? He's asking $350 for it, which seems reasonable, but it may need some work. (Fretboard looks a little shrunken, and there may be a bit of work needed on the top). If he'd advertised it last week, I'd have leapt for it, odd though it may be. That fish-tail peghead is something only a mother could love, but it's akin to a bulldog - so ugly it's cute, somehow. And I know there are those among us who have a strong opinion about asymmetric soundholes. Still, I bet it'd be a decent player.

[Jim Garber]

I've now reached critical mass on these things.
I think you may mean critical MAS. Unfortunately, it wears off after some time.

Congratulations, Bob on a real coup. You are the Bowlman.

Jim

[Eugene]

Man, I've been out of this game too long. You lot are all making me really jealous!

[Bob A]

I believe you're right, Jim. For a while it was uncritical MAS, but my eye has developed far in excess of my credit limit.

Go, Eugene! There are plenty more where these came from. Remember the rallying cry of the obsessive consumer - nothing exceeds like excess!

If I change my handle from Bob A to "XS", will you know what I mean?

[Alex Timmerman]

A 1909 Vinaccia desperately crying for help (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3723602409&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) at eBay....

[Jim Garber]

I have the high bid at the moment but I doubt it will stay any where near to my high. Prob go over $1000 for this lower end Vinaccia with lots of work needed.

Jim

[Bob A]

Yeah, that's a hurting puppy. Looks like a job for TC. Figure a year or two; doubtless it'll prove to have been worth the wait, should you survive so long.

I'm getting to be a large fan of maple bowlbacks. I'd have thought to chase it if I didn't already have a Vinnie ready to leave the shop (in rosewood, but who's complaining?). and if I thought I could stand the wait. So no competition from me, at least. Good luck, Jim.

[vkioulaphides]

Hail! The Bowlman Cometh!

Live long and pick, my friend!

[Marc]

Look out MAS strikes again!
I've just picked up an Angara and D'Isanto (Allievi di Vinaccia)in a junk shop for 20 quid (thats about 38 USD I suppose. Its in pretty good nick except no nut, no bridge, one ivory (or bone?) end pin missing, and a little bit of the fruitwood/walnut trim around the side missing. Otherwise neck is straight, top hasn't distorted and it has the other Vinaccia type appointments - little finial, two ebony and pearl dots either side of the bridge, pearl volute (?) on the back of the neck.
That brings my total to 12 which is more than anyone needs. At what point should I start selling? any thoughts?
Marc Woodward
www.belmando.com

[Jim Garber]

That brings my total to 12 which is more than anyone needs. At what point should I start selling? any thoughts?
You didn't say if the 12 are just bowlbacks or mandolins in general. I think the point to start selling is when you walk into a room and everytwhere you look, a mandolin stares at you in the face. I am way beyond that point. I am at the point where I have broken mandolins everywhere, some with small things and some that need major restoration.

If I were sensible, I would stop buying and put that money into repairs.

However, 20 quid for a Vinaccia clone... sounds like a bargain to me...

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

I suppose it all boils down to one's intentions... Trouble is, those deeply hidden sparks of psychic energy are too darn well hidden to discern at times.

If, A. one is a speculator, given some funds to begin #with and a keen eye for quality, one could reasonably justify amassing, oh, 100-odd quality, vintage instruments with an eye on future resale at a profit; the question remaining: Whether the needed, #current-account cost of restoration would cause such forward-looking, hypothetical profits #to simply evaporate.

If, B. one collects for the sheer pleasure of having beautiful things around him/herself, well, who can argue against THAT? Life has enough ugly corners on its underbelly; some compensation is in fact needed, for medicinal reasons— same as I apply to regular consumption of good wine.

If, however, C. one buys for the pleasure of buying itself, I would draw the line there and warn of a serious problem. This is not unlike the compulsive buying of clothes, electronic gizmos, etc. and all those things generally accepted as more "reasonable" purhases than, oh, mandolins. *scornful grimace*

I firmly believe that Bob's case goes under scenario "B"; I also think that the vast majority of us are somewhere there, too— at least I HOPE we are not slipping into the most unsalutary "C" scenario... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jim Garber]

Actually, Victor, I buy these for the most part to play. A beautiful mandolin that has no sound has little interest to me. Yes there is visual beauty as well -- why else would I go for a style 6 Martin -- but primarily I have divested myself of the instruments that don't work as tools of musical expression.

On the other hand I have been the owner of a few instruments that sounded great but looked horrific to my eye. Many years ago I purchased my first Gibson out a wall of As at mandolin Bros. which turned out to be a whitefaced A3, not because i wanted a white mandolin but in spite of the looks: it was the best sounding one on the wall.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Understood, Jim. When I spoke of surrounding oneself with beautiful things, I did mean both beautiful-looking AND beautiful-sounding. Once again, I was unclear.

[Bob A]

Well, gentle readers, I'm thinking there might be another category or sub-
into which I could fall. Much of my problem, if I would so describe having an excess of good things, comes from curiosity. I got into accumulating Italian instruments in order to have the opportunity to examine and experience the similarities and differences between them, and between Italian as a group and the US instruments I had.

I have a fair selection of mandolins and guitars (which guitars I seldom play these days) but there are only a few which fall into congruent groups. E.g. a '68 Gibson dreadnaught and a '43 J45. I keep them bothe because of sentimental reasons - the '68 was my first decent instrument.

It's the same with the mandolins. Each has a different sound, or style, or something to set it off from its mates. (Currently I have two bowlbacks which are more similar than different: a Mozzani and a Monzino. The Mozzani needs some repairs, so I'm saved from having to make a deaccession decision for the nonce; sadly I am charmed by both of them for reasons of eye appeal as well as aural qualities, so it may never come to a separation).

The sad fact, which we as a group are doing our best to remedy, is that there exists little ground for easy comparison of these instruments on these shores. So a representative selection is at hand, for that purpose. Whether it will be broadly used or remain the whim of a solitary collector is unclear, but at least the potential exists at this time.

There's also the Mandolin Rescue league, of which I am a member. And the movement to pass onto the future the cream of the past, which is also a noble thought, possibly engendered by a spirit of grandiosity hiding the simpler acquisitive motives. We are nothing if not altogether too clever at concealing ourselves from ourselves.

Of course, when I become too deaf and arthritic to enjoy them, those that are not in the hands of the descendants will be sold, doubtless for a tidy profit. Collection and dispersion are the faces of a particular coin.
One can hope it is not minted from fool's gold.

How many is too many? Hard to say, and dependant on individual circumstances. I'm probably approaching some kind of limit, however asymptotically. But if I have access to funds, and something really interesting pops up, I'll doubtless be tempted. (In what has been a very expensive couple of weeks for me - thru no fault of my own, I'd hasten to say - I found the opportunity to score a baglama for about $75. Which of you would have hesitated on that?)

[Jim Garber]

How many is too many?
There is a cyber-friend of mine and a few others on this board who has accumulated over 400 bowlbacks of all sorts. His name will go unmentioned at this moment, howver, but I do think he sees the humor in it all.

Jim

[Bob A]

And to think I had my tongue in cheek when I made a comment on another thread about 300 ouds!

Reality trumps fantasy often enough for the difference to be meaningless.

[Marc]

Hmm, I believe I'm a combination of 'beautiful things' and 'mandolin rescue league'. Of my twelve (which compared to 400 or so seems sadly lacking - I must buy more...) I have to admit that several are hardly ever played but remain for other reasons: eg my first mandolin; an interesting but ultimately crappy Bohmann; a yet to be repaired aluminium Merrill. The instruments that get played are my trusty old F2, my Vega Pettine and my F5 copy.
But all my instruments are different and have differing qualities that appeal. I suppose I wouldn't buy something again that I already had - unless..(insert plausible justification to self).
Marc
www.belmando.com

[Eugene]

That is an eclectic little stable Marc. Popular legend has it that Bohmann was North America's first mandolin maker.

[Marc]

I know. Have you seen there are several Bohmann mandos on ebay at present - looks like someone is unloading part of a collection - although it seems they've been stripped of vital organs. What's going on there?
Marc

[Jim Garber]

I've just picked up an Angara and D'Isanto (Allievi di #Vinaccia)in a junk shop for 20 quid (thats about 38 USD I suppose.
Marc: When can we see pics of this one on our bowlback pic site.?

[Jim Garber]

I know. Have you seen there are several Bohmann mandos on ebay at present - looks like someone is unloading part of a collection - although it seems they've been stripped of vital organs. What's going on there?
Marc
I know -- I asked the seller if he had any parts and he said no. Whre do they all go, those parts?

Jim

[Marc]

I need to get to grips with how to load digital pics up to the site, but when I do I'll post pictures of the D'Isanto instrument and also my Raffaele Valente roman mandolin which is very pretty - fluted flamey maple ribs etc.
just need a few more hours in the day...
Marc

[Bob A]

Folks, there's a Vega Lansing Special on ebay - currently at 100, sale is over in 7 hrs. (Not lansing, Mich - it's an artist model. Lansing was apparently well-known enough to get his own model, not like poor Grisman).

If it's anywhere near as good as the Pettine Special (doubtful, but who knows?) it's a steal.

Also a Martin style 6a is going away in 8 hrs; no reserve, minimum bid 800, so far no takers. We've seen this one hereabouts.

Somebody is gonna get a good mandolin for cheap soon. Why not you?

(I'm not personally involved in either of these, either as owner or bidder. But if I didn't have the Pettine I'd chase the Vega. There's one for sale by a dealer for $900, I think, though it's had no nibbles for a year).

[Jim Garber]

Also a Martin style 6a is going away in 8 hrs; no reserve, minimum bid 800, so far no takers. We've seen this one hereabouts.
I think this one it Peter Klima's. It looks like the same repaired top crack and same creasing on the pickguard. Yes, it would be a bargain at that price.

Jim

[Bob A]

Oops. Martin auction ends tomorrow afternoon.

[Martin Jonas]

My Ceccherini has just arrived and my first impressions, about an hour after opening the box, are:

1) It's a really beautiful, delicate-looking mandolin in very good condition. Understated, tasteful decoration, which I much prefer to the over-ornate all-over MOP style of decoration. I think Alex and Victor may be right that the top may have been slightly sanded and waxed at some stage, but it doesn't seem recent. The back was probably revarnished as well, but nicely done and again not recent. The top is very dark, much the same colour as the bowl.

2) Two visible repairs (other than the possible refinishing), both very minor: a 2cm strip of the original wood binding has been replaced with an insert and one of the G tuner posts has been soldered where string tension has torn out the hole (and the soldered bit itself is frayed again, so this may need redoing).

3) The neck is straight, but I think the neck angle has moved slightly forward with very minor varnish cracking at the joint. When I got the mandolin, the strings were much too heavy gauge (steelwound, looks like the same gauge as J74s), but I gather that they were only put on a few weeks ago, when the seller took them to a music shop in preparation for the auction, and the mandolin wasn't played with these strings. I have now taken the tension off (which I had asked the seller to do, but he didn't do). The cracking around the neck joint doesn't look recent, so hopefully the seller didn't do any harm in the brief period with the heavy strings.

4) Presumably because of the neck angle coming forward a bit, the action is rather high. Not fully unplayable, but uncomfortable. I have just measured it, and it's between 3.5mm and 4mm at the 12th fret, which surprises me, as it looks higher. I would estimate that I can lower the action to around 2mm (12th fret) by lowering the brass insert in the bridge (either having a new insert made or filing off the existing one) and that should make it playable without a neck reset. I don't think that shimming the fingerboard is an option; it's very thin indeed.

5) All hardware looks original. Rosewood bridge with brass insert, brass nut with integral zero fret (as described by Victor; it's a very snazzy design that looks so intuitively right that I'm amazed no modern luthiers have taken it up), ivory tuner knobs, nickel (?) bar frets with only some minor wear on the first position frets (maybe refretted at some stage?). Ebony fretboard, tortoiseshell pickguard with silver and MOP inlays.

6) No visible cracks, no sign of top sinking (in fact it's slight arched upwards), no rattles or loose braces.

7) Unlike Victor's Ceccherini, this is a single top model, which (as Victor suggested) may explain why it has a de Meglioesque bar to hold the strings down, not the metal hooks seen elsewhere. It's not clear to me whether this one is single top because it was a cheaper mandolin originally or whether it was built before Ceccherini invented the double top. There's no year of construction on the label and no serial number, just the remark "Premiata all'Esposizione di Milano, 1881" which presumably means it must have been built after 1881.

8) It may have spent some time hanging on the wall somewhere, as there are two small holes (one at the side of the neck next to the eighth fret, one to the left of the tailpiece) which may be where somebody screwed hooks in to hang it up.

9) I can't evaluate the sound yet, as I took the tension off the inappropriate strings right when I got it. I just briefly plucked them first, and it was loud and resonant, so I'm on tenterhooks for when I get the Lenzners I've ordered and the lowered brass saddle and can properly hear the character.

On the whole, I think this was a fine buy and I'm crossing my fingers that it'll be stable and playable with the right strings and saddle. Photos to come soon; in the meantime there's still the Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3721523096&category=10179&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1) entry.

Martin

[pklima]

Yeah, that's my Martin up for sale. I just haven't mentioned it on the board to avoid "buy my stuff" type posts. Figure I'll never be able to get anything for it in Europe so I might as well see if I can sell it and buy an Italian mando. I'm also vastly reducing my instrument collection - my tenor banjo and troll cittern are already gone.

[Jim Garber]

Peter:
Don't be afraid to mention it to us. One of the nice things is that we keep the beloved instruments in the "family." It always gave me great joy to sell or give my instruments to friends and visit with them in later years.

If your Martin is anything like Eugene's which I tried in NY last fall, it is a honey and certainly reasonably priced.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Is this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3724328525) a for-real Embergher. Label and appointments seem very plain. Is it a budget model? Hard to tell but it doesn't seem to have the radiused fretboard either.

JIm

[pklima]

Peter:
Don't be afraid to mention it to us. One of the nice things is that we keep the beloved instruments in the "family." It always gave me great joy to sell or give my instruments to friends and visit with them in later years.

If your Martin is anything like Eugene's which I tried in NY last fall, it is a honey and certainly reasonably priced.

Jim
I did list it in the Cafe classifieds. Scott doesn't like "stuff for sale" posts on the message board. I knew someone would spot it and mention it 'round these parts anyway.

It sold, by the way, leaving me mando-less for now. But I still have the troll guitar and cello banjo which are tuned in fifths. I seem to get along better with larger instruments anyway, as sweet as the Martin sounds. It's probably the finest instrument I've ever owned.

[Jim Garber]

Peter:
We must get you a new small one. You can't be without.... can you? You say you want an Italian: Embergher (or clone thereof), perhaps?

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Jim,

Indeed, this instrument has nothing to do with an Embergher mandolin. Why it is there as such I don´t know; it´s most likely that what happens when a ´name´ gets known...


Best,

Alex

[pklima]

Peter:
We must get you a new small one. You can't be without.... can you? You say you want an Italian: Embergher (or clone thereof), perhaps?

Jim
I'm definitely in the market for a European bowlback but I can live without a mando for a while. I play bass 90% of the time anyway... the only times anyone ever asks me to play anything else is when there are no other instrumentalists. So I can wait for the right instrument/deal and practice smooth tremolo on cello banjo... now there's a hopeless cause.

[vkioulaphides]

Congratulations to Martin on the Ceccherini; on the flip side, I regret that I was not, ehm... —how should I put this?— "in the money" when Peter's Martin went on sale, in quest as I am (subconsciously at least) for that American Dream of a bowlback.

Now, as to Martin (the mandolinIST, not the mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) If the action is as high as you mention, I am afraid you cannot solve the problem entirely by lowering the brass saddle; this may take some more extensive work.

Of course, I agree with your observation that raising such a wafer-thin fingerboard is precarious, if not downright impossible— if, that is, you care to remove it intact, i.e not in splinters. I would recommend a graduated approach (for which an able and h-o-n-e-s-t repairperson will be needed):

See first what can be done by way of lowering the saddle, as you suggest. I would NOT rush to file down the original, but first experiment with alternative, thinner brass bars. If the results are satisfactory, well, stop right there and start picking to your heart's delight.

If not, and as you report that the frets are worn out, see if some adjustment can be made from that end: Obviously, if you raise the frets (that is to say: replace the worn-out, i.e. lowered by wear frets) with new ones of the appropriate height, you will be ipso facto lowering the action, i.e. the distance the strings need to travel, as pressed by the fingers, in order to touch the frets. See what that does.

Finally, if none of those possibilities will yield adequate and sufficient results, you may consider a whole new fingerboard, or The Apocalyptic Raising discussed above. I know too little about neck re-sets to speak with any experience. Perhaps others can...

We all wish you the best of luck with this lovely, new/old instrument. Please keep us informed.

[Martin Jonas]

My Ceccherini has just arrived and my first impressions, about an hour after opening the box, are:
...
6) No visible cracks, no sign of top sinking (in fact it's slight arched upwards), no rattles or loose braces.
Just to follow up on my previous post on this aspect: When I got the Ceccherini home, I took off the bridge to have a closer look as to how I can lower the action. What struck me is that the top is really arched pretty strongly and the arch is clearly part of the design, not just a flat top developing bulges with age. This is apparent from the shape of the bridge, which is carved to follow the arch of the top (and it has an original luthier's mark underneath the base, saying "IIV", whatever that means, so it wasn't sanded to fit later). Standing the bridge on its ends on a flat surface, there's about 3mm to 4mm clearance in the middle. That's not much less than on my F5 clone.

Is such an arch a common feature on old Neapolitan mandolins? Would it have been created by carving, or by steam pressing (the latter, presumably, same as the staves).

Otherwise, lowering the action looks fairly straightforward. The brass saddle is made of a piece of round brass wire, about 3mm diameter, with about the lower third planed off. I should be able to lower the action by putting a smaller diameter brass wire as a saddle, plus shaving about a mm off the saddle support on the top of the bridge. Together, that should give me the 1.5 to 2 mm off the action that I need to make it comfortable and I wouldn't have to touch the base of the bridge with its perfect fit to the top. Does that sound like the right method to those more experienced with such matters?

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks for your advice, Victor. I think our latest messages crossed over in cyberspace. It does look to me as if working on the bridge alone should be enough. I put a straightedge on the fretboard at home, and it has only a waferthin sliver of relief in the centre (about as thick as a sheet of paper) and the continuation of the line of the fingerboard meet the bridge about halfway up. Add two to three mm of string height at the bridge and it's within the height of the saddle. Replacing the brass saddle is really straightforward and I think I can do it myself -- I'll just need to look for a suitable piece of brass. Shaving off some of the wood on top the bridge is a bit trickier, not because it's difficult, but because it's irreversible. Luthiers around here are strictly guitar makers, though, and I'm not too sure there's much point in getting the work on the bridge farmed out to them, so I think I'll take it one step at a time but do the work on the bridge myself.

I wouldn't do any fretboard or neck repairs myself, though. I may have given the wrong impression about the condition of the frets: in fact they are virtually untouched, apart from the slightest bit of wear on the first five frets, treble strings only. Either this has never been played much or it has been refretted at some stage. So, refretting wouldn't do much to the action.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, Martin, the arching of the top is intentional and original, as is (of course) the corresponding shape of the "foot" of the bridge.

If all you describe is so, your method of correction should give you all you need. The mystery (to my troubled, little brain at least) is why the action would have been so high to begin with. What could the previous owner have been thinking?

As always, best of luck.

[Martin Jonas]

Victor, my guess is that the mandolin hasn't been played for many years and that the neck angle has gradually moved since it had last been played. According to the seller, he got the mandolin in a house clearance this year. The (heavy) strings that were on it when I got it were put on only a few weeks ago by the seller, so they give no indication on what strings were on for the past few decades. However, the seller also sent me some old and still sealed packs of string with the mandolin. These are "Cathedral" brand and from the yellowed paper packs, they date from sometime between the 1940s and 1960s, certainly not more recent. Most likely, these were the same make of strings that were on the mandolin when it passed to my seller. No gauge information at all on the packs of string, but I've opened some. They're not as heavy as the new strings that were put on, but they're still not particularly light gauge. So, I think the action was ok when it was last played, but it may have been stored under excessive tension since then. It would be really annoying if the action had been fine until the recent restringing, but there's no way to find out, I guess.

I got myself some brass rods of varying diameter to make a new saddle this afternoon, so I'll see how far I get with that.

Thanks for the information on arching. How widespread is it? I'm pretty sure that my mother's Miroglio has a flat top (apart from the cant, obviously) and a flat-base bridge.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Well, both questions are hard to answer.

I would not know how common that degree of arching would be; I DO know, however, that at least some arching of the top is very, very common indeed among vintage Neapolitans. It only adds to the graceful, total shape of the instrument —not to mention how greatly it adds to its structural resilience and longevity!

To my knowledge, heavy stringing will do damage over some considerable time. Combined especially with a damp, moist environment, improper extraneous pressures (as when the instrument is leaned or hung inappropriately), moisture that may have weakened the glue-joints... I would not suppose that the neck of your instrument shifted overnight. But, as you say, there is really no way to find out.

Another negative effect is the natural tendency of the strings to go sharp (and thereby exert more pressure on the instrument) as the weather gets colder. Factor in the additional fragility of wood in low temperatures, the usual dryness caused by the cold (as atmospheric humidity freezes), etc., etc. and you see how neglect acts like a nutcracker on the poor mandorla. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

Here is another American beauty; a superb looking C.F. Martin stlye 5 mandolin!

Click here to view the USA eBay webpage where it just came up for auction. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3724938616&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)


Greetings,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

That style 5 "ukulele" is on its second go-around since no one bid the rather high price.

There is also another one available for considerably less ($1650) at Marc Silber Music (http://www.marcsilbermusic.com/inventory/db-pages/desc.asp?instid=209), but he does say that it has an old peghead repair (not sure what that means).

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes Jim, I can understand that many think that this is a lot of money. But is it too much??? Compared by this flat back Martin (same seller) at the USA eBay web page it looks like a joke. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3724938258&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting) This starts off with $4000,-.

And of course it is a matter of taste, but I don´t think that these can be compared with the bowlbacks made by Martin. Not in sound and not in craftmanship.

Some days ago another Martin style 5 went for $1,645.00.


As someone who looks at this from the sideline I wonder why does it looks like bowlbacks are so neglected in the US?

These (like the Vegas etc.) are great instruments in my eyes and ears!


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Alex, this is the link for that other style 5 Martin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3721625610). I contacted the winner. He has two of these but mostly plays his Gilchrist.

Gibson did a very good job years ago selling their style of mandolin. After the smoke cleared and the mandolin craze was over, there was mostly Blugrass players who would not be seen with a bowlback.

It is a matter of taste and the popularity of styles of music. Even in Europe and Japan Bluegrassers play F5s. Classical mandolin in the US is a serious minority.

BTW that Style E is the equivalent of a Martin D-45 which go for $100,000 or more in the US. Still that Hawaiian eBay seller is high priced. For that price I think I would prefer a simple Embergher over the Martin.

Jim

[Eugene]

And of course it is a matter of taste, but I don´t think that these can be compared with the bowlbacks made by Martin. Not in sound and not in craftmanship.

Some days ago another Martin style 5 went for $1,645.00.

As someone who looks at this from the sideline I wonder why does it looks like bowlbacks are so neglected in the US?

These (like the Vegas etc.) are great instruments in my eyes and ears!
I think you are preaching to the choir here, Alex. Of course I will agree wholeheartedly. I think it's especially silly when considering that fine Brazilian rosewood bowlback mandolins of the lower models still claim maybe one quarter of how much even the lowest mahogany ukulele model by Martin will take at auction. Still, the prices of nicer mandolins (even of baser mandolins) have appreciated considerably since I started following such things. I think a resurgence in popularity of the classic mandolin may be just around the bend...maybe...I hope...

[Hubert Angaiak]

I am enjoying my plain Martin. I still need to get comfortable in holding it. The tone is unique and I think its more trebly than the high end ones. I had to make an effort to have an open mind, since my mandolin experience is the Gibson type and the tone associated with it. Once getting beyond my bias, the bowlback is a woonderful instrument. I'm sure a diehard flatback player won't agree with me. I do own a Nugget F, a '14 Gibson F-2 and I feel they are honored to have the Martin with them. Its a matter of taste and don't be afraid to try it.

[Eugene]

You should consider adding some images and chatter to the Post a picture (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185) thread, Hubert.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Eugene, Jim and all,

First I must say that I like very much what Hubert mentions about what he is experiencing with his bowlback mandolin. I think this has a lot to do with the appreciation of sound.

Of course I know that you and most of us here, are thinking the same way.

That both mandolins types and music styles were so separated from eachother and - as Jim points out - that "Bluegrass players would not be seen with a bowlback" is perhaps understandable (seen in the light of time and the enormous popularity of that music genre), but when this situation #lasts - as it apperently does - up to today, I think it´s a real pity.

I hope you do understand that I don´t want to say that if Bluegrass Country Music Father Bill Monroe had played a bowlback of some sort his music would have sounded better. Not at all! I even do have the conviction that Monroe´s music is best heard on his 1923 Gibson F-5 Master model.

But the other way around, if today Country Music flat/cilinder/carved back mandolinists play Bach or other ´serious´ music, I simply can´t help not being able to free my ears from the ´Kentucky sound´.

Of course I hear the outstanding virtuosity of the performers, but with that in mind I am flabberthegasted by the thought that they don´t play - when they are so able to do this - ´serious´ music on a bowlback with a plectrum that gets the most out of the instrument.

Don´t they know these mandolin variants... # ? #If they do know them, do they not compare sound and listen to what sound they produce?
You see, many questions pop up, like: why are Classical musicians so concerned with sound, how to frase, what kind of trills one should make, what tempo (changings in one piece...) etc. strings, plectra, etc. etc.


Or is it a gap between super talents in the amateur (mandolin) world versus the trained musician in the (mandolin) concert field.
Both of course being active as professional mandolinists.


Well, only thoughts of course.

(Maybe some other thread some day...)


Best,

Alex

[John Bertotti]

"Or is it a gap between super talents in the amateur (mandolin) world
versus the trained musician in the (mandolin) concert field."


I wonder if these amateurs, or the carved top players, just haven't become accustomed to the sounds of their F and A style mandolins. Perhaps, from their point of view, the classical pieces they play sound great. It comes down to the tone and flavors they have grown to love. Just a thought. John

[Bob A]

As John says, it is the sound you imprinted on that they've grown to love. There's no question that the bowlback sound is a different animal than the F5 sound. Not better, not worse, but different. Of course the playing characteristics are different too, with lighter stringing, smaller frets and a shorter scale.

Still, insofar as the mandolin encompasses such a broad spectrum of design and sound, it's a shame to be too insular about it. I love my F4; I love my bowlbacks. I would, at this point, not care to choose between them.

[margora]

Re: flatback/carved back versus roundback. I play classical mandolin on both (a Collings A model versus various bowlbacks). The sound is very different, but I enjoy both. Personally, I think the "formal training" bit (as per Alex's comment) is a red herring (or 95 percent thereof). Certainly in the guitar world, there are any number of classical guitarists with "formal training" who have few relevant musical skills (such as the ability to play in time in an ensemble and follow a conductor or, my pet peeve, being able to sight read accurately even single lines, much less more complex material). I haven't heard Gertrud Troester play on a flatback or carved back mandolin, but I suspect she would sound more or less just like herself. Ditto Marilyn Mair (whom I have heard up close, always a carved back, and sounds just fine). Julian Bream once remarked that he could give a concert on a cheap Yamaha and no one (except maybe him) would know the difference. It is easy, in other words, to make too much of the instrument as opposed to the performer. However, I also suspect many flat or carved back players in the US would enjoy playing a bowlback if, in fact, it were as easy to buy a really good one as, say, your average Collings or Gibson (which is most definitely not the case). We in this group enjoy the chase (i.e. Ebay) but most professional musicians I know are too busy.

[vkioulaphides]

Well, if A. it stays this low, B. the reserve is, oh... $50, AND (most important) C. you know of a decent and affordable luthier:

http://cgi.netscape.ebay.com/ws....63&rd=1 (http://cgi.netscape.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3724291963&rd=1)

[vkioulaphides]

OK, friends: Sold at $86, hopefully to some denizen of the Café. OK... who is it, now? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Garber]

I was bidding and was half-intending to win this, but I realized at the last moment that I have a pile of stuff to be fixed either by me or those more-qualified so I let it go.

I have a Waldo coming and a cylinder back Vega. Is enough enough? Nah!

Jim

[Eugene]

I was actually going to pursue this one...and completely forgot to do so. Ah well...

[Eugene]

This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3725428212&rd=1) certainly is the fanciest Weymann I've seen. Mandoluter, where are you?

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

At least it looks like we have some evidence that Bill played and knew how a bowlback sounded (Plamen will be delighted) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif!

A Puglisi Reale & Figli has come up for auction. View it at
Ebay USA Web site (http://cgi.netscape.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3724824963&rd=1).


Cheers,

Alex

[Bob A]

coasttocoastbooks has been hoovering mandolins to quite an extent of late. Given his 3400+ ebay transactions, when does he get to play?

[Jim Garber]

Yes, I have also noticed coast2coastbooks. I emailed him/her. I think they are serious booksellers...and mandolin buyers. Maybe they are cornering the bowlback market. Could be the next big thing, eh.

Hold onto your mandolins, folks. Serious investment potential. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Hubert Angaiak]

I was going to start another topic, but maybe it belongs here. After looking at the fancy Weymann it made me wonder about how it sounded. Was is the fashion of the era to have something as fancy as that? did the tone matter during that time?

[Martin Jonas]

I have to say that I find such elaborate decoration as on the Weymann rather off-putting. I much prefer the plainer models (and luckily my Ceccherini is). Presumably the decorated ones were substantially more expensive at the time. What is the consensus on sound -- were they generally made with greater care and sounded better than the entry-level ones or is it just looks?

Martin
PS: I have also noticed coast2coastbooks bidding on every bowlback going -- they had a bid for my Ceccherini as well.

[Bob A]

Martin, I've recently acquired an over-the-top decorated Ceccherini. I have to say that it is gorgeous, though not perhaps to everyone's taste (if taste can even be used in this context). It looks like an ornate rococo jewel box.

It plays well: better, perhaps, than one might expect. It is inhibiting to play on, though; one doesn't wish to contribute to the entropy of such a piece. This, in my opinion, is the bigest drawback to this sort of thig. And, of course, the general reluctance to expose it to the rigors of travel and exposure to the masses. I put my kneebreeches on, powder my wig, and confine my playing to the drawing-rooms of the elite. Failing to find that particular venue, it's solo time in the living room for the Ceccerini and me.

My experience is that the midlevel instruments of the Italian makers are the most satisfying overall for real-world use.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Hubert and BobA,

Too much decoration inlay and applications on the soundboard will of course be of influence to the sound. Therefore the tops of the ´Soloist models´ by the best mandolin makers are usually plain and not decorated. The best example here is Luigi Embergher.


Best,

Alex

PS. BobA, did you buy your Pecoraro/Embergher blind, or did you see it pictured first?

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"My experience is that the midlevel instruments of the Italian makers are the most satisfying overall for real-world use."

I can think of no more succinct way of putting this. Yes, indeed. Maybe my bias comes from a rather, ehm... plebeian view of the "real" world— then again, I'm no Roman and attach no negative connotation to something Every(wo)man can have and use to good effect.

I only reserve judgment, strictly on grounds of my own ignorance, on some similar statement regarding mid-level, vintage American instruments. I would suspect (and, by Jove, some day will find out) that such instruments as plain but well-built Vegas are no less suitable for this brave, "real" world than their Italian counterparts.

Alas, however, my "discovering America" will have to wait past this year; things have managed once again to get in the way. But, then again, there is a tangible pleasure in anticipation...

[Bob A]

Alex, it was to have been an Embergher; but there was a mixup between the two British dealers who bought the collection, and the E escaped. They said the Pecoraro was an excellent instrument, and even though it did not have the nifty "scorpion" peghead, it looked pretty nice, so I committed to purchase. I'm not disappointed in anything except in not having the curly bit.

Victor, the finest American bowlback instrument I've ever played is my Vega Pettine Special. Its level of ornament is not super high - decorative fleurs-de-lis in the unbound fretboard; pearl around soundhole and binding; and a nice inlaid lyre in the pickguard. (Vega is to be complemented in keeping the inlaid ornamentation on the bass side of the pickguard: it makes little sense to me to have it abused by fingernails down in the treble).

This Pettine is capable of large excursions of decibel, from pp to ff anyway, without breaking up or sounding stressed. It has far more delicacy and levels of expression than I can coax from it. It is really too much of a good thing for a hack like me,

The Pecoraro is a different bird. It seems sonically neutral. If you want effects, you have to have the technique to bring them out. It too can be a lapcannon; of course I string it with a bit heavier (consort) string set.

Please don't take my word for gospel on any of this - it's just the vague imressions of a mediocre player.

I'd love to have your impressions of my Stahl/Larson bros mando. It'd be too ornate for your tastes, but the sound is something else. Very "American" - brash, loud, in your face. No real subtlety. But charming nevertheless, in its own way.

I sometimes envy Peter his Spartan ethic; but I'd be hard pressed to say "OK, I don't want to keep this one". They're all a gas.

[pklima]

I sometimes envy Peter his Spartan ethic; but I'd be hard pressed to say "OK, I don't want to keep this one". They're all a gas.
I'm from Cracow, not Sparta. There's a local legend that the nation of Scotland was created when the spendthrifts were kicked out of Cracow. Perhaps that explains something.

Actually, I look forward to settling down and being finally able to relax my "no two instruments with the same tuning" rule. I'll probably still end up playing bass 90% of the time (especially in public) but such is a bassist's life. Nobody ever says "leave the bass at home and bring your banjo".

[Jim Garber]

A nice-looking Vega style 2 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3726440901) just came on eBay.

Jim

[Bob A]

Carlo M sent me (and doubtless many of you as well) an email with photos of the instrument he makes. I inquired the price: 3500 euros.

An attractive instrument nonetheless. Anyone ever played one?

[Alex Timmerman]

And another nice light-weight Raffaele Calace from 1914:

Click here to view at eBay Germany´s #Webpage. (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3727160534&indexURL=5#ebayphotohosting)


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3727774019) is an interesting bowlback, nice-looking marquetry on the back from Milan, but not a Milanese mandolino.

Strangest thing is that it has ivory frets. Has anyone seen that on a steel string instrument? I can't imagine that they would last all that long. I have seen the ivory frets on some instruments, but those are usually the ones that extend onto the soundboard.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, dunno... that marquetry weirds me out... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Also, relating to the Calace Alex refers to: Hmm... it might be the perspective from which the seller shot these pictures but the bowl seems awfully, ehm... bulbous, awfully stout in general proportion to the instrument, almost modern-German-like; perhaps it is also the few —and consequently very wide— staves that exaggerate this impression.

Still, I would prefer stout and plain to checkerboard-ridden. But that, again, is apples and oranges...

[Arto]

Hi Alex,

do you think the German eBay´s Calace has original armrest? Looks strange (and rather ugly) to me.

Just curious (= I´m not going to bid ;-),
Arto

[Bob A]

I'm pretty certain that the armrest is a later addon to the Calace. I think the photo angle makes it out to be bulbulouser than it is. Too bad the seller isn't interested in shipping outside Germany. I'd certainly like a decent teens or twenties Calace. Anyone know of one outside the CM orbit?

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Arto,

This armrest is indeed to big (plump) for the mandolin and was not placed on it by the luthiers of the Calace firm. In fact this Calace orchestra mandolin model was designed without an armrest.


Best,

Alex

[Eugene]

I'd wager this was not intended as a "player's" instrument for a working-class musician: YIKES (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3729806508&rd=1)!

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Eugene,


Jipp, it´s better to look at this 1899 Vinaccia at eBay France. (http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=24403&item=3730034746&rd=1)


Greetings,

Alex

[pklima]

I'd wager this was not intended as a "player's" instrument for a working-class musician: YIKES (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3729806508&rd=1)!
Yikes, indeed!

[Jim Garber]

Yes, that overly ornate thing -- i guess it is a mandolino of some sort but more likley a wall hanger. I breath easily when I see that Vinaccia.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

At eBay Webpage England (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1073&item=4018101451&rd=1) the diffucult to find LP recording of Keith Harris.

Maybe of interest for one here at the board.

[Jim Garber]

What ever happened to Keith Harris? I think I vaguely heard that he came down with a dread disease that stopped his playing.

I thought about that LP but the postage to the US would be more than the bid price.

Jim

[Eugene]

What ever happened to Keith Harris? I think I vaguely heard that he came down with a dread disease that stopped his playing.
Indeed. He's conducting a mandolin orchestra in Germany now. The ex-guitar teacher of a German friend of mine who now lives here in Ohio is playing with Mr. Harris's orchestra. I can ask her for details if somebody else doesn't beat me to posting a few.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Jim & Eugene,


Jim you are right; Keith suffers from a muscle disease and stopped because of that with performing. His activities concerning conducting and teaching however have been and still are fantastic and of the highest level.

To name a few orchestras he works and/or worked with here some names: The European Youth Orchestra of the EGMA; The Louisville Mandolin Orchestra (US); The Mandolin Orchestra of Patras (Greece); The Hessischen Zupforchester (Germany) and The Sydney Mandolin Orchestra. #

I remember, accompanying Sebastiaan de Grebber who had subscribed to a day-course lead by Keith, that he - as he told me afterwards - immediately saw the possibilities of young Sebastiaan (than only about 10 years old). Personally I think that meeting with Keith was very important. We knew of course his fine playing from the LP record (mentioned above) but to really talk with- and learn from him was absolutely a great experience.

Later the two of us met Keith - always in great friendship - on several occasions like the prestigious International ´Raffaele Calace Concorso per Mandolino Solo´ in Bologna 2000 (organized by the FMI (Federazione Mandolinistica Italiana) & the EGMA (the European Guitar and Mandolin Association) where Sebastiaan was the youngest amongst the finalists and last year when our Mandolin Orchestra ´HET CONSORT´ gave a performance during the International Concours in Koslar (Germany).

So Keith is still quite busy and an esteemed person in the Mandolin World.

Besides the Mandolin/Piano record Keith Harris also made a recording of Hummel´s Mandolin Concerto accompanied by the State Chamber Orchestra of Zilina.


Greetings,

Alex


To learn more about the activities of Keith Harris read for instance this on the Webpage of the Louisville Mandolin Orchestra (http://www.lmo.org/hstry_05_internat.html) and Google with +Keith Harris +mandolin. I´m sure you will find out more.

[Jim Garber]

Yet another, but beautiful in its simplicity, Calace (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=623&item=3730280253&rd=1).

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim And BobA (and others),

I whould say: That´s one to go for!

All original (except for the bridge) and it appears to be in fine and playing condition. I owe a 1914 example of this very same model that both of you (I know you have the CD) can hear on HET CONSORT 1st “Aranci in Fiore” CD (track 5 ´Rondo´ Op.127 by Raffaele Calace and track 9-10 ´Adagio & Allegro´ by Carlo Malizia, both works are for Mandolin and Mand. Orchestra) played by Sebastiaan de Grebber. #

For others who like to hear this Calace model click here and than on the track numbers of The CONSORT Sample Webpage (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/samples/ensamples01.htm).


It is of course very much a matter of taste, but this model is probably one of the finest in sound and appearence of that time. Not so heavy build and with a brilliant, clear well balanced sound. Personally I like this model, the Raffaele Calace ´900 Brevettato´ and the ´light headed´ version of the Calace ´Classico´ very much.


Greetings,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

I'm intrigued by the two holes in front of the bridge. My German-built 1920s/30s Majestic (roundhole Portuguese-style) also has two holes of similar size, originally with inserts similar to those on the Calace. However, on the Majestic, they are well away from the bridge off to one side, about halfway between the bridge and the rim on the bass side. Are they a Calace invention? Anybody know what the reasoning for their presence is (same reason for the noble Calace as for my pedestrian Majestic)?

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Martin, there have been speculative discussions of this before but, alas, no substantive, definitive answers.

Visually, of course, the dots are quite pleasing and, by way of a marker-like function, they demarcate (roughly) the desired positioning of the bridge— in relation, that is, to where they themselves are located on the top.

Acoustically, I doubt that they contribute in any significant way to projection; I just cannot see why/how they would. Someone (I forget who right now) even speculated that there might have existed some sort of add-on mute at some point, whose two prongs were to be inserted in the two holes and thus supported, in contact with the bridge— I find this rather far-fetched, to say the least.

Hey, I may be ignorant, but at least I'm also skeptical! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (I suppose that beats ignorant and gullible)

My assessment, in one word, would be: Decorative. Then again, I am always happy to be corrected, and thereby educated.

[Arto]

Hi Alex,
what do you mean by "light headed" version of Calace Classico? Type A with a slotted (not solid) headstock, or the plainer styles B-D with the simpler headstock?

Thanks for your very interesting comments above.
greetings, Arto

[Bob A]

Yet another Calace on ebay. The latest looks in need of restoration; the one linked above still has no bids, but a lot of email to seller.

I'm contemplating a bid on the Aussie instrument, but I'm not interested in a bidding war with anyone on this site. If anyone here has their heart set on it maybe we should talk offline?

Frankly, I wish there were enough of these things around that one could just go and buy one.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Arto,

I will look if I can find an image of the headstock of the ´light headed´ version of the Calace ´Classico´ for you.


Best,

Alex.

[Jim Garber]

This is a Classico A from a Japanese site.

[Jim Garber]

Speaking of "light-headed," here is a headless 1898 Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3730437405). This will proib go for a few hundred as is.

The Calace in bad shape went for over $600.

Jim

[Marc]

Looking at this Vinaccia prompts a question. I am currently fixing up a Vinaccia clone (D'Isanto) very similar to this Vinaccia. It has the same four ivory/bone pegs to secure the strings at the bottom of the body. However there appears to be nothing to stop the strings cutting into the wood at the edge of the bowl, yet there is no evidence to show this has happened before. Should there be a small metal piece here, or perhaps a piece of felt under the strings? Any suggestions?
Marc
www.belmando.com

[Martin Jonas]

The headless Vinaccia went for $260. #While that's about the same as I paid for my playable Ceccherini, I feel that the seller did himself a disservice by not realising that he had a Vinaccia -- the only way to find out was to look at the photo of the label, which quite clearly said "Vinaccia" but from which the seller only took the prefix "Fratelli". #Still, that's some serious restoring to do to fit a headstock. #The nut still seems to be there, so maybe it's possible to keep the existing neck and "just" splice on a new headstock, but even so it seems like a vast amount of work with uncertain outcome (the remaining neck might be splintered and/or bent).

Martin

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Marc,

For this model with ivory/bone pegs to secure the (light) strings at the bottom of the body, the hard ivory/ivorite or bone outer lining (the edge) of the soundboard was seen as sufficient.

Greetings,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Here (http://www.springersmusic.co.uk/Library/Mandolin%20collection.htm) is an interesting museum page. Unfortinately there is little info on each one.

Esp unusual is the "19th rosewood back# ribs into the neck."

Scary is the "Rare 16 string mandolin C1860"

Jim

[Marc]

Hi Alex,
the edge of the soundboard on my instrument is rosewood. This itself may be hard enough to resist the cutting power of the strings to some extent, however it shows no indication that the strings have been cutting into it in the past. There is some fret wear so I know the instrument has been strung and played for some of its 117 years.
I wondered if there is some small metal plate -perhaps tortoiseshell- missing (although there is no indication that there was ever such a thing on the instrument)?
Marc

[Jim Garber]

The headless Vinaccia went for $260. #While that's about the same as I paid for my playable Ceccherini, I feel that the seller did himself a disservice by not realising that he had a Vinaccia -- the only way to find out was to look at the photo of the label, which quite clearly said "Vinaccia" but from which the seller only took the prefix "Fratelli".
I figured that the seller was clueless but the bidders were not. Anyone can see who made that one, or at least who made the label.

I think the general rule of thumb is that a basket case instrument like this would prob be worht not more than half of what the same instrument would be worth if it were intact. A competent luthier would prob charge about $1000 or more to restore this to playability. Hard to say if it would be worth it. Who know what else is wrong with it. I would take the Ceccherini over this one at that price.

Jim

[Marc]

I've got to agree with Jim on this. If this mandolin were just an unnamed basket case it would probably have fetched little more than 50 dollars at best for a project piece for someone starting out in instrument repairs. Its the Vinaccia name that makes the difference. I've even seen a Vinaccia with only a fragment of the label left (and not the bit that said 'Vinaccia'on it but just the words 'Fratelli' and part of the address) fetch good money because the bidder knew what he was buying.

The bidders on ebay are a pretty expert bunch and I've come to the conclusion that you rarely get a bargain on ebay - the competition from other knowledgable bidders is too great! I've just strung up a Pasquale Angara & Pasquale D'Isanto (Allievi di Vinaccia) dating from 1887 - I paid £20 from an antique/junk shop in Plymouth - I'd have paid a lot more on ebay!
Marc
www.belmando.com

[Jim Garber]

Marc:
I found this Angara e D'Isanto in my jpeg collection. It sold on eBay last year. I am not sure what the final was but I am sure it was considerably more than £20.

There is some sort of bone (?) piece where the strings go over the edge of the top from the tailpiece. I am not sure if that is original or added by an owner. Then again, it could be a piece of felt. It is difficult to tell from the photo.

Jim

[Marc]

Thanks Jim, that's very useful - I was sure there must be something to defend against the strings biting in, 'though as you say it's hard to tell if it's bone or felt. My instrument is very similar except it has the classic Vinaccia style pearl/ebony dots either side of the bridge and may be slightly narrower in the width of the body although it's hard to tell.
Marc

[Martin Jonas]

I figured that the seller was clueless but the bidders were not. Anyone can see who made that one, or at least who made the label.
...
I would take the Ceccherini over this one at that price.
I'm sure that the bidders knew exactly what they were bidding on -- no-name wrecks don't make that sort of money. I'm just thinking that several potential bidders never looked at the photos of the label because the description and the thumbnail photo would have been really off-putting for all but the most-dedicated.

I certainly don't think I'd swap with the Ceccherini (which keeps improving in tone -- I'm ever more awestruck the more I play it).

Martin

[Marc]

Yes, I like uneducated sellers the most - your best chance of a bargain is where most people won't have looked. For example I bought my Vega Pettine Special on the rebound after having narrowly missed an Embergher concert model (fluted ribs scroll headstock etc) which sold for around 550 dollars if I remember rightly. It had been listed as a lute and didn't show up at all as a 'mandolin' - it was only the Embergher searchword that pulled it up. I seem to think the winning bidder was Max McCollough, who many here will know.
Marc

[Jim Garber]

The other problem on eBay is spelling. Think of quite a few variations on Embergher, for instance. There is a seller who seems to have acquired an large quantity of instruments by Joseph Bohmann but who lists every mandolin and violin as being made by Bowman. You would think he would look at the label once.

Then of course, there are the ubiquitous Fratelli mandolins http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Marc:
This Angara & Disanto (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3732935367) just came up on eBay. The seller will only ship to the UK. Looks pretty good but there is a strange tailpiece cover. I would guess that that was an addition by the owner so that he would not get his cuff caught on the string ends. it looks sort of plastic and not the sort of substance that would be in existence in 1891.

Jim

[Eugene]

I don't think that bit of white (I'd guess bone) on the D'Isanto above is original; it looks rather amateurishly shaped and doesn't look like the typical method for doing such things. #Very early on (from the first Neapolitan instruments into the mid to late 1800s), there was often an inlaid plate of pearl in mastic, ivory, or some hardwood at the butt to protect the table as the strings came off the hitch pins and over the top (see attached picture of my anonymous ca. 1835-40 French instrument, possibly from the Eulry shop). #By the late 1800s, as steel strings became more prevalent, those mandolins that still employed ivory hitch pins often had a little metal plate with a 90-degree bend in it to sit along the edge of the table and protect it from the bite of strings. It simply sat there, no formal "installation," held by string tension. #By way of example, it seems that Stridente made most of their instruments this way. #It looks like the UK D'Isanto on eBay has such a plate hiding under the probably non-original bit of plastic/celluloid. #Unfortunately, such metal plates would be even more prone to loss than tailpiece covers. #I understand fabricating metal with a bend along a curve is not an easy one-off type job.

[Eugene]

What's the story with this character (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=623&item=3731115238&rd=1)? I assumed it was a German knock-off of Embergher's orchestral instruments and intended to throw a couple hundred at it. In the last moments of the auction, well, it shot to over US$700.

[Jim Garber]

Here another Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3731383714&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) . This one looks like a handyman's special. The label (different from others I have seen) looks like it says 1904 or 1907.

Looks like it says "Provveditori di S.M. La Regina Margherita" It seem sot be signed by someone named Vinaccia, tho.

Any clues on this one. I wonder if Carlo M will end up with it.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Joe Todaro posted this notice (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=16474;) about his South American-made bowlback. Looks interesting, esp since the bowl is carved out of a solid piece of wood. The price is a little high for my tastes. Still, I wouldn't mind trying one.

This is a guy who imports instruments from Bolivia. I bought a nice charango from him at the Philadelphia Guitar show some years ago.

Jim

[Bob A]

Hello all. Just back from a weekend at the old homestead in Rochester NY. Stopped in to Bernunzio's (I'm consigning a few instruments to alleviate the fiscal hit for recent bowlback excess) and he gifted me with a brick of Black Diamond strings. I wanted to point this out to youall because of the price, though they're not bowlback-suitable. (At least the ones I got aren't. Not sure if he has other types). It was a box of 12 sets of bronze strings, 0.011., 0.014, 0.025, 0.039. I think the set number was 764. But he's putting them on ebay for something like 17/box, which is a buck and a half a set. So if you need cheap strings for your Gibsons, here's a chance to score a lifetime supply.

Saw the (ad for) the Vinaccia Jim mentions. Looks like poor photography covers a multitude of sins. Carlo is welcome to the restoration job.

Also saw (back to Bernunzio again) the Epiphone bowlback mandola he mentions in his site. A fascinating thing: the neck seems to have a central portion that is laminated out of several contrasting slices of wood, light/dark, reminiscent of the Framus things, though not nearly so extensive - it comprises only the central third of the neck. Nice big bowl, rosewood apparently, and the asymmetric, diverging braces. Two problems: first, it looks like it was dropped on the tailpiece, which crushed the binding at the t'piece, about an inch in extent. It only seems to go as far as the binding - table intact. Second, the final brace, closest to the t'piece, has been knocked loose. I don't think John or his repairperson is up to the task of getting in there and gluing it back. This is a job for someone who has done this sort of thing before, or perhaps a midget. I suspect it is a quality piece, and certainly rare. I bring it to your attention thinking that it might find a home with one of us. (I didn't spend much time examining it; seemed inappropriate to get mandolalust even as I attempt to claw out of the hole I've jumped in chasing the elusive mandolin).

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello!

Here (http://www.massmedia.com/~mikeb/mando/gallery/) are some more mandolins. I don`t think they are "of note" in terms of nice sounding, nice looking, etc. but some of them are strange at least.

Good luck!

[Martin Jonas]

Marc:
This Angara & Disanto (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3732935367) just came up on eBay. The seller will only ship to the UK. Looks pretty good but there is a strange tailpiece cover. I would guess that that was an addition by the owner so that he would not get his cuff caught on the string ends. it looks sort of plastic and not the sort of substance that would be in existence in 1891.
This one has now been withdrawn from sale, which is a pity as I was thinking about bidding on it as a gift for my mother. Presumably someone made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Ah, Martin, you see how pernicious MAS can be! You get the Ceccherini; you get hooked on the sweet, old, Neapolitan sound; you think: "There is more to life than Miroglio"; you think of your mother; "what if?" you imagine... The rest is history, dreadful history. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Victor (who is taking a mandolin as a gift to his mother-in-law in a couple of weeks, on the occasion of her 80th birthday)

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jim Garber]

That is funny. I just emailed the seller last night to see if he would reconsider shipping to US. Iwasn;t all that serious tho and would defer to you, Martin.

You might check with the seller anyway. Sometimes there are other reasons he may have stopped the auction. Perhaps he got nervous that there weren't enough bids.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello,

At eBay France a nice early 20th century (http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=24403&item=3733593093&rd=1)De Meglio style mandolin with all original decorations made by Luigi Dosio atelier.

Looks like a fine mandolin.


Greetings,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

Not sure whether this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3732793740&rd=1) deMeglio at Ebay UK has been mentioned yet. #The buyer is looking for a fixed "Buy It Now" price of 300 Pounds, with no alternative auction option. #Unlike most of the ones seen here, this one still has its tortoiseshell/inlay tailpiece cover (at least I assume it's original, as the inlay seems to match the pickguard). #It looks very clean and light, but on the photos, the bridge looks to be balancing right on the cant and there is a visible mark on the top further forward, presumably the original bridge location. #Is this a smudge between tailpiece and bridge, or a patent brand?

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, the tailpiece cover looks original; my 1897 de Meglio has it, too. Also, yes, the "smudge" is presumably the indented patent. The position of the bridge, however, (in relation to the cant) makes one wonder.

To clarify my point: The bridge on my de Meglio (and many other vintage instruments) is also a bit further down from the "ghost", original position; a millimeter or two at the most. In this case, however, the bridge is WAAAAAAAY out of place. Is it, then, a lousy setup or a compromise for a severely impaired instrument?

Looks very nice and clean. I would still ask the seller a couple of salient questions before wiring GBP300 his way...

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello martinjonas and Victor,

It looks like e very nice instrument and like the one at eBay France, all decorations are original. there is one alteration and that is the bone sadle in the bridge. This whould have been bronce if original. For the rest it looks great with it´s nice 20 frets fingerboard.

The bridge is as you noticed way out of it´s place. Perhaps the seller has just fixed it up for the photo. Also when strung with flatwound strings - as in this case - the swinging stringlength needs to be longer a few milimetres. Whatever the case might be; as far as I can see from the images shown, I don´t think there is any need for the bridge to be where it is now.


Greetings,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

Actually, I was just putting this in the "Bowlbacks of Note" thread to point it out to others -- I'm not seriously considering buying it. #300 Pounds would be a good price for a good de Meglio, I guess, but too risky for an eBay purchase of an old mandolin. #The d'Isanto was at around 40 Pounds when it was withdrawn and even though it would no doubt have gone up quite a bit (maybe to 120 to 150 Pounds), it would have been a different proposition. #After all, neither I nor my mother have an actual shortage of mandolins...

Martin

[Dolamon]

A Mandolin of "Note" - well, at least different ... Scott has this Listed in Eye Candy . (http://www.sciusciaguitars.com/mediterrans.html#)It is a bit off but - an electric Neopolitan? Just in case you get stuck in a rowdy, cavernous bistro and can't be heard above the clink of glass and laughter.

(well - it might happen)

Scroll over the Mandolin and click - it is in Italian but ...

[pklima]

Hey, I've played Neapolitans through fuzz pedals before. I suppose there's a market for e-Neapolitans among Mediterranean folk-rockers.

[Jim Garber]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=595&item=6105847322&rd=1) #is something that looks like a mandolin and costs about what the equiv would. You can't even play the thing. Oh well. Cute and pretty detailed, tho.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

This basket-case F. Calace mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3734714687) just came on eBay. I am not familiar with this member of the Calace family. Any clue to age? I bet this will go for $200 or more, as is.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Jim, I suspect (and this is ONLY a guess) that the upper-case "F." is meant to be mentally attached to the lower-case "lli" above— a common Italian abbreviation for "Fratelli" = brothers. Just my guess.

I would not bid on something in this state, though.

[Jim Garber]

Of course... no excuse for my ignorance... and I didn't see that "lli" above the F on the tailpiece. "Ah, yes, yet another example of those mandolins made by the prodigious Fratelli Brothers..." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

In any case, any clue as to the vintage of this poor mandolin.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

I'd think that the other brother would have been Nicola (later grudgingly renamed by himself Nicola Turturro), the "lesser" brother in comparison to The Great Raffaele. Others might know better... I am not sure about the date of Nicola's emigration to the States.

No excuses needed; in fact, I have a relevant, historical trivium for you: The type of long-barrel, front-loading rifle Greeks used in their revolution against the Ottoman Turks is commonly known, to this day, as "karyofíli", as if it were a noun, neutral gender, just like any other.

The provenance of said rifles, however, is quite enlightening on this otherwise etymologically inscrutable word: These rifles were either manufactured by, or at least packaged in Italy, as Greek expatriots from all around Europe would raise money for their rebel brothers to bear arms. The rifles would then arrive secretly in Greece in wooden cases bearing the brand name of the Italian shipping firm. The actual, last name of the business owner was impossible to pronounce in Greek, or too long, or too difficult to decipher; the company-name, however, conveniently ended with the business owner's #first name, plus the suffix e figli. For example, if the full company-name had been "Armi da caccia, pistole, ecc., ecc., ecc... Cagliostri Carlo e figli " the Greeks, unable to read the Roman alphabet and having heard the name only once, from the illiterate stevedores unloading the crates with the rifles, only retained... Karyofíli, from "Carlo e figli" = Carlo & Sons.

Not to mention Vivaldi's scoring for corni di salmo ("psalm horns"?!?), which stems however from an Italian mispronunciation of the French chalumeau (reed), or many other such linguistic mysteries.

But I digress— worse than other times, I'm afraid. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Still, no go on the bid, not from me.

[Jim Garber]

Still, no go on the bid, not from me.
Thanks, Victor for the word origin story. I love that stuff. I would only bid on it to say I have a vintage Calace and hopefully to restore it somehow or save it from wallhanger status. As I said, I doubt it will go for flea market pricing.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"... I doubt it will go for flea market pricing."

Or maybe it will... who knows?

Truth be told, Jim, considering how happier and happier by the day I am with my nearly-newborn Calace, I simply have no appetite for a vintage piece with such enormous reconstructive needs— however low the winning bid might be.

Say you get this for, uhm... $50. Just say... What then? Pull the top off, rebuild it from within, rebrace, reglue everything, then reposition it on the bowl —which, of course, would necessitate redoing all the intricate binding work— then all the requisite work on the fingerboard, then the final, highly questionable setup? (... on which, of course, the very playability of the instrument and any qualitative, sounding-value will be tested)

I don't know, Jim... The way you speak of salvaging instruments makes this sound (to me, at least) as if this is YOUR own take on pilgrimage (as per the related thread). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Still, sainthood is lonely, tedious, and largely ineffectual.

Yours,

The Joyful Heathen http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Garber]

Frankly, Victor, you are right. The last thing I need is another basket-case mandolin. I was just expressing my frustration at lacking a decent vintage Italian bowlback -- the incessant collector in me.

Back to practicing... as my wife says, you can only play one mandolin at a time.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Your wife is a practical woman— most are. Not to mention that time is of necessity precious little; not to mention that much higher musical returns are to be had by diligent practice (on ANY decent, playable instrument) than by collecting several of them; not to mention, after all, that vita brevis bit... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Bob A]

"Lonely, tedious and largely ineffectual" might well serve for my epitaph. I fear that it will not be enough to bring me to the company of the saints.

Still, I've strayed not once or twice into the path of accumulation. It is said that a fool who persisits in his folly may gain wisdom. Certainly he will gain, among other items, heaps of musical instruments.

I've had occasion to mention that I've learned much from handling a fair cross-section of such; whether it will have been enough to justify my follies is problematic, and ultimately doubtful. But it has been amusing.

Being a charter member of the Mandolin Rescue League has its drawbacks, to be sure, but it also has a few satisfactions. (Very few, and they long delayed). I hope to be able to report favorably on a few by and by.

Nevertheless, too much of a good thing can still be too much. I embody Jim's pain in myself. Yet I have a feeling that the scales have fallen from my fingers, if not my eyes, and I am on the threshold of an idea. It's too early to get specific, but perhaps in few months the thing will be ripe enough to serve without opprobrium.

[vkioulaphides]

I should think that opprobrium is altogether foreign in such congenial a circle as this. On the other hand, each one of us being a point on the perimeter of the same circle, we naturally have different points of view— and WILDLY divergent tangents!

So... has anyone amongst us actually acquired any of the fine instruments mentioned on this thread?

*insert public confession HERE*

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Bob A]

Public Confession:

Yes, the Calace in Australia is (hopefully) enroute to what we might as well call Bob's Bowl-O-Rama. One can only hope it's worth the misery of acquisition. It was a terrible behind the scenes struggle, with the former owner besieged by frantic and reportedly increasingly vitriolic and threatening emails. Darn if it didn't feel like a chase for the Maltese Falcon or something; so far no corpses scattering the landscape, and few sinister characters lurking about, but then I've yet to receive the package.

[Martin Jonas]

Of course (as everybody here is probably fed up with reading about), I got the Ceccherini that I first heard about in this thread. No stories of skulldiggery from my ebay purchase -- the fanatics stick with the grand marquee name instead (luckily).

Martin
(off to Piraeus on Tuesday for a couple of days of client relations -- let's see if I come across any rebetiko...)

[Bob A]

Ebay has a 33rpm recording of Pettine doing what he does best. Quality might not be the best. Still, someone here might be interested. If copyright issues are not a prob, a cd would be welcomed by many, I'm sure.

[John Bertotti]

So Jim are you going to bid on this F. Calace mandolin you posted earlier. I might. I'm undecided at the moment but think it would be a great project piece. John

[vkioulaphides]

Enjoy Piraeus, Martin!

If you get a chance —and although you may not be in the pangs of MAS right now— you may want to pay a visit to Christos Spourdalakis' shop; a true master-luthier!

You will certainly find some bouzouki-clubs in Piraeus. Fortunately for some people, UNfortunately for others, Piraeus is hardly the seedy, grimy, funky harbor it was in the 1920's and '30's; a few draconian mayors later, it is now a bustling metropolis, with over 5,000 vessels docked in its multiplex ports on any given day. Hardly the town Vamvakáris, Bátis, and Máthesis wrote songs about...

[Jim Garber]

John:
You should bid on it if you want. I have further pics from the seller. The top is split along the divide and there is also some warping/ The top may have to be replaced altogether, tho possibly not. I can send you the pics, if you like. I would have to hire a ;luthier to restore it anyway, so prob not worth it for me.

If it stays at that low price it might be a steal for you or opther luthier. But it won't stay there. The seller said he was inundated with emails.
Jim

[Jim Garber]

Ebay has a 33rpm recording of Pettine doing what he does best. Quality might not be the best. Still, someone here might be interested. If copyright issues are not a prob, a cd would be welcomed by many, I'm sure.
I have that LP and I know Richard W has one and possibly someone else. It is interesting but not Pettine at his height. Worth having tho.

I think Pettine's son is still selling either the LP or Cassette copies of it.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Well Jim my wife pointed out I should finish the ones I've started before moving on to a restoration and she's actually right. Maybe next time around I'll jump in, unless of course the bidding this time doesn't go nuts. Remains to be seen. I'm actually more interested in a new Calace now that I've seen the web site posted elsewhere. Anyone here ever play a new one? The big question is are they worth the money heck what do they go for? It might be more cost effective to go with the restyle Calace that the man from oldmandolins dot com makes. His sound clip sounded good. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Bob A]

John, if it stays cheap, you ought to consider getting it just for the ability to dissect and study the construction(I was tempted to bid just for the bridge, but it seems too ghoulish to buy a Calace for parts).

[John Bertotti]

I probably will but I don't know if the limit I set for myself will be high enough for it. My wife doesn't care if I do as long as it doesn't interfere with the costs for a adoption we are starting. Thanks John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[vkioulaphides]

John, I have a virtually brand-new Calace, built for and delivered to me in March 2004. The model is No. 26, the second-from-the-bottom. I have discussed this instrument in great detail elsewhere; I don't know, however, whether those threads are still alive on the board.

In short: I am very happy with it: excellent intonation, good, solid construction, nice, even sound across all registers, warm tone... In summary, a very, very nice instrument. I have every reason to expect it to mature and improve in complexity of tone with time.

I would not wish to bore our other MC-friends by reiterating things I have already discussed at length on the board. If, on the other hand, you are interested, please drop me a note via the MC message circuit and I will reply in as much detail as you may require.

[John Bertotti]

Well the rise in bidding has begun. Already approaching my limit so any willing to bid more good luck. I will invest in my own constructions and hopefully a new Calace shortly. The current bid is a bit over 126$ still reasonable I think but not for me. I think a visit to the pawn shops through my travels would be wise though could be a potential bowl back of note just around the corner. Hey dreams do come true from time to time. John

[Jim Garber]

Don't feel too bad, John. I predict $200-300 final bid. We shall see. There are some folks truly hungry for Italian mandolins esp to restore and send to Japan. Carlo M or Marco may end up with it. It least it seem that they can restore them.

Here is a picture of the worst of it. I have a feeling that it will need the top replaced.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Wow the auction ended early by the seller. He must of had a good offer through emails. I imagine someone wanted it bad! John

[Jim Garber]

I can't understand why sellers do that except if they get what they feel is a high offer... more than they would get otherwise. But, you never do know until the end what will happen. It is very annoying, tho to us watching at home.

I did email the seller to see if he tells me what happened. I would bnot be surprised if it is a dealer from Italy.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Without wishing to make anyone uncomfortable or self-conscious, I think one (perhaps I?) ought to use this thread as a market-study project.

So many fascinating facets to discuss! When the thread first appeared, I must admit I was veeeeeery skeptical: Would this lead to more market efficiency? (...which I, like many others, hypocritically preach and praise, while at the same time doing my damndest to expoit each and every little market INefficiency. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif )

My first, gut-reaction has now receded; my first, negative, fear-driven impression has been shaken. Could this thread actually be a positive impetus in the preservation of a rare (and finite, in the case of vintage instruments) supply of quality instruments? On the THIRD hand (as Jim humorously —and correctly!—#points out time and again), could this be simply fanning inflation, without any corresponding greater, or better, or broader production? Aha! Time for an academic market-study! (But, ah... those days are soooooo far gone!)

In part, I think a great number of people simply don't know what the heck they're doing. Some of the behavior you see on eBay simply does not make any, ANY sense! Then again, some of people's behavior ANYwhere doesn't make sense, either... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bob A]

Well, it's been amply demonstrated that economic behavior, at least in the microeconomy of individual decisionmaking, is far from a rational process. Efficient markets exist only in theory; there's always elements of fear and greed that drive movements. Emotions on a level well below the conscious level are always in play - ask any advertising agency if their aim is to inform the public, and you'll get a response ranging from a blank stare to wild laughter.

I don't think this particular thread has the mass to inflate prices much. We're a small number of maniacs strutting and playing on a world-sized stage. It may help in decision-making on an individual level: info gleaned from members stimulated my recent Calace purchase, insofar as I probably wouldn't have gone so far out on a limb without reassurance that it was a quality piece.

The board as a whole has doubtless stimulated demand, and stoked inflationary trends, but with some 4000 members playing at all levels, it's not too focussed.

Regarding preservation of quality vintage instruments, I'd imagine price pressure on quality items does more to protect the objects in question that any amount of proselytising on the subject. Still, the thread is helpful in bringing worthwhile items to the attention of collectors; but so long as the number of individual purchasers remains limited, and presumably individual finances are also limited, it isn't going to make too much impact on a market that is pretty dominated by European and Japanese players and collectors. What it may well do is increase the pool of worthwhile vintage instruments in North America, by a small yet noticeable number. (I notice, for example, that several of us here each have a sufficient number of quality instruments to skew the local NA market, if they were to come to market suddenly. At any given time, I doubt that there are more than a dozen high-quality bowlbacks in the marketplace at one time, and finding them has become easier, but by no means all that simple).

As far as operating in ignorance is concerned, I'm guilty as charged. I admit to having gleaned a large amount of info on the subject sionce I first started questing for bowlbacks two years ago, but the subject is very broad, and information available readily, specific and in English, is thin on the ground. I had to build a knowledge base thru extensive purchases, as there didn't seem to be any other way short of world travel and monomaniacal pursuit, as well as plaguing the more knowledgeable for information, to get answers to my questions).

I admit it remains a mystery why, having set an auction in motion, a seller might not let the process run its course. I believe the Calace I purchased would have been sold at or above the price I eventually had to pay, given the interest expressed by various parties. I can only attribute the taking off market items like the recent Calace basket-case to ignorance (or fear and greed) by the seller.

By the way, MY seller informed me that his ostensible reasons for doing the deal included a desire to sell to a fellow musician, a hope that the instrument would find a good home, and irritation with the pressures laid on him by other email offerers. None of this is particularly rational, you'll agree. Nevertheless, I had to raise my bid to a handsome level, well beyond what I might have bid at auction, to secure the instrument. I can't begin to relate my relief that the instrument turned out to be in acceptable condition.

So long as auction sites provide such an interesting forum for the study of human behavior and economic theory, they'll be of great interest to such folks as psychologists, economists and mandolinists. And other "ists", lost in the mists. Follow the tinkling siren-sound, and you may find mando-paradise, or sink without a trace.

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"...MY seller informed me that his ostensible reasons for doing the deal included a desire to sell to a fellow musician, a hope that the instrument would find a good home, and irritation with the pressures laid on him by other email offerers. None of this is particularly rational..."

I suppose not... Yet, group-psychology-oriented economists would still argue that, in his own, personal way, the seller was "deriving utility" (albeit of a very sublime and rarefied nature) from satisfying his conscience-driven priorities, however ostensible those may seem to the skeptics amongst us.

In the immortal words of one of my favorite latter-day Epicurean philosophers (Mick Jagger), it all boils down to satisfaction.

If I may share a vintage, personal anecdote with you, my MC-friends:

Back in my teens, I was taking Economics A-Levels (as in the British academic system). Our teacher was a fellow named Mr. Graves—#oh, sure, he MUST have had a first name, like John, or Peter, or Paul... But no: It was MR. Graves to YOU, ratty, little teenagers! Or, as we called him amongst ourselves, Sergeant Graves: Stout, blondish crew-cut, and a craggy, thorny mustache that bristled AT you when he spoke; very, veeeeeerrry British-colonial; well-spoken but not TOO friendly! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

One day, Sarge was talking away, all about "marginal elasticity of demand in INefficient markets" and blah, and blah, and blah... Point is: Of course, ALL markets are inefficient, yet there is considerable, relative difference between, say, eBay, and the open-air flea-markets of Tirana, Albania.

A cocky, oh-so-very-upper-class student suddenly stood up and blurted an unthinkable "Sorry, Sir, but I am not satisfied with your explanation". Sarge stared; he squinted; his mustache bristled, hedgehog-like, at the offender.

After a moment or two, painful for all present, he replied in overly polite, whispered tones: "Sir: This is a class of economics, not a bordello. Then, switching gears suddenly from a barely audible whisper to a deafening holler, he added: "WE ARE NOT COMMITTED TO YOUR SATISFACTION!!!

It's where one finds it...

[etbarbaric]

>> In the immortal words of one of my favorite latter-day
>> Epicurean philosophers (Mick Jagger), it all boils down
>> to satisfaction.

Indeed... and did Mr. Jagger not attend the London School of Economics prior to becoming a rock star? Me thinks he knew of what he spoke! :-)

You can't always get what you want... but if you try sometimes...

Eric

[Jim Garber]

Another 1892 Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3737651050), fluted ribs and a little wear all around. The bowlback underground is lurking tho, ready to punce at the last minute...beware!! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

My prediction: $1500-2000.

Jim

[Bob A]

An early Embergher-labelled instrument is being offered on ebay by Marco Onorati. Looks very basic; peghead is not typical.

Betcha Jim's Vinaccia goes for more than 3K. But not to me.

[Jim Garber]

Betcha Jim's Vinaccia goes for more than 3K. But not to me.
Not to me either

Jim

[Jim Garber]

My prediction: $1500-2000.
Am I good or what? <patting myself on the back>

Final result: $2,025.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3737651050)

I should win something for this... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Bob A]

I'm impressed, Jim. And surprised it didn't go higher.

BTW, the very ornate Vinaccia at Larkstreet has gone down a grand, for those who feel a need for over-the-top flamboyance. Now it can be yours for 4500.

[Jim Garber]

Actually, with the exception of the all-pearl fretboard, it is rather tasteful IMHO. I have certainly seen worse. I must get dfown there toi take a look at those. BION, I have never played a vintage Italian bowlback by one of the big three makers.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi,

The "early" + "Embergher-labelled" instrument (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3737680033&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V) that still is being offered on ebay has (IMHO) nothing to do with an Embergher. Neither has the label.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Alex:
I did wonder about that "Embergher", esp since it has only low bids. Any clue to what it actually is?

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Jim:
Something German that one best forgets as soon as possible.

Alex

[Eugene]

HA! My new favorite approach to unplayable, knock-off junk will now be to "best forget as soon as possible."

[Jim Garber]

...or, the title to my new CD: "best forget as soon as possible." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Has anyone contacted Marco (the seller) to inform him?

Also: is that a repro of an actual Embergher label in this mandolin?

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

As said: the instrument ànd label have nothing to do with Luigi Embergher or the instruments of his atelier.

[Bob A]

Note that the seller has described the instrument as "Labelled Embergher". Certainly true. Cave canem.

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes Bob, I agree.

But when the seller goes on - also in German - with (quote): I think that this is one of the first mandolin that EMBERGHER maded in ROME (before he worked in Arpino - Frosinone - with his partner Domenico Cerrone); infact it's a very particular Embergher mandolin.", I think he goes wrong.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Alex:
Here's an Embergher (http://www.berkelmuziek.nl/img/html/embergher.htm) in your neck of the woods. Have you played that one? 1700 euros.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Jim,

Yes, I know that one. It is a fine Roman mandolin (no label) but - because of a number of differences with Embergher mandolins - in my opinion not made by Luigi Embergher and/or Domenico Cerrone. And also not made by their fellow workers in the Embergher atelier.

You must know that at the time there were quite a number of Roman luthiers making mandolins in the (successful) Roman style. #
Most likely it was one of the makers of the ´circle´ around Embergher, who was responsible for building this Roman mandolin.

This particular example was advertised for sale through a music shop in Amsterdam. Eventually the mandolin wasn´t sold and the seller took it back to sell it privately.

So, the web-site is old and still ´on line´ but the mandolin is gone.


Cheers,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

It this a true Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3738674165). Seem like ity may be a deal for those in the UK.

Or is it a fake one...?
Jim

[Martin Jonas]

It this a true Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3738674165). Seem like ity may be a deal for those in the UK.

Or is it a fake one...?
Hmmm... I didn't realise any part of the Vinaccia family (Guiseppe? Is that actually a legitimate Vinaccia first name?) made mandolins with quite as few staves. If I count right, it's eleven staves to the bowl. I don't think I've ever seen a top maker mandolin with that few, except possibly for entry level Vegas.

Martin

[Eugene]

Yup, Giuseppe was a flourishing Vinaccia in the early 20th c. The piece does look rather spartan, but my initial reaction is that this is a legit, entry-level piece. The Vinaccias of that time were rather fond of that headstock profile which often sported a cupola in the deep cut of the terminus; I suspect this had one in the form of a simple bone knob that was lost. I can't count the ribs from the images, but, unless the broad outermost rib is truly massive, I suspect this has more than 11. Still, entry level Martins had as few as nine. I have seen Washburns with as few as nine and other L&H brands with less (can anybody with a ca. 1910s L&H catalog confirm?). I'm keen to hear others thoughts on this piece.

[Bob A]

It looks legit to me. I'm no expert, of course, but it makes little sense to counterfeit an entry-level instrument.

For what it's worth, the number of ribs may impact production cost, but it is not necessarily indicative of sonic quality. I have two Italian bowlbacks with low rib counts, a Salsedo and a Mozzani, and both, while Spartan in materials and ornament, are exceptional players' instruments.

Regarding the Roman instrument mentioned above, I made inquiries over a year ago and was told only that it was sold. There seems to be a real prejudice on the part of Continental websites toward providing timely updates, or any sort of useful information other than the occasional tantalising photo of an instrument that is no longer available, or perhaps never was. Most annoying.

[Martin Jonas]

The Guiseppe Vinaccia went for £360. I actually put in a (much lower) bid as well, but at the end there was the usual flurry of bids from Japan and Italy, with the final winner being in Switzerland. Slightly strange, that, considering that the seller specified that he'd only ship to the UK. Maybe he agreed in private e-mail to ship worldwide. Still, on the basis of Eugene's and Bob's opinion, that's probably not a bad price; it's just more than I want to pay right now for another bowlback.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

#I have seen Washburns with as few as nine and other L&H brands with less (can anybody with a ca. 1910s L&H catalog confirm?). #I'm keen to hear others thoughts on this piece.
Eugene:
Smallest number of ribs in all my L&H catalogs is 9.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Slightly strange, that, considering that the seller specified that he'd only ship to the UK. #Maybe he agreed in private e-mail to ship worldwide.
I contacted the seller to see if there was a way i could buy it and have it shipped to a friend in the UK and he said he had no problme accepting payment from the US even in USD but would still only ship within the UK.

Yes, I suppose it would have been a decent price for a genuine Vinaccia. At this point I would not be ready to blow a large sum, tho I am considering selling some of my stable of American instruments, esp a few Gibsons that get little use, to maybe trade up for a quality vintage Italian. I will keep you posted on further developements.

I hope to someday play actual examples of the big three makers. Visually the higher end Emberghers appeal to me and listening to the likes of M.s Stephens on hers, I can hear the expression (or espressione) that she imbues with hers.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I contacted the seller to see if there was a way i could buy it and have it shipped to a friend in the UK and he said he had no problme accepting payment from the US even in USD but would still only ship within the UK.
Interesting. Seeing that I am the highest UK bidder, I might still hear from the seller. On the other hand, I doubt he'll take a two-thirds drop in order to avoid overseas shipping.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Unless these other bidders did not read the line about only shipping in the UK (quite possible), I would imagine that they can work something out with the seller in terms of payment and shipping. But, who knows, Martin, you may hear from him. If you are interested, perhaps a friendly email "just in case" might be in order. I would be prepared to pay a higher price, but you never know... Good luck.

Jim

[Bob A]

Those of you who are not put off by over-the-top ornamentation will be interested in viewing the circa 1900 Neapolitan instrument on the bernunzio.com website. The ribs are fascinating, it has double pearl dragons on the pickguard, the armrest has carved dragons as well, the fretboard is solid pearl, and the purfling incorporates a string of shamrocks. (!) While mystified by the clash of symbols, I admit to a certain fascination with the thing, akin to watching a trainwreck.

Things are a bit sluggish hereabouts nowadays. (Can I say "sluggish" without offending the gastropods among us?).

I understand the dragon motif has been used on some Roman instruments in the past. Anyone have pictures?

[Martin Jonas]

That certainly is over the top. I can't say it appeals to me -- especially the mother of pearl fretboard is very off-putting. Doesn't playing comfort suffer? I agree, though, that the ribs are fascinating. Very intricate inlay work, although again I wonder whether the function and structural integrity doesn't suffer.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Yes, over the top would be the optimum description. To make it easier for those to check it out. click here (http://bernunzio.com/cgi-bin/bernunzio/showimg2000?img=048363).

Interesting: at first I thought that the back was fluted, but it is not but it is made of lots of marquetry. Any clues from the experts as to the maker?

Jim

[etbarbaric]

Bob said it best:

>> While mystified by the clash of symbols, I admit to
>> a certain fascination with the thing, akin to watching
>> a trainwreck.

Perhaps we need a new term for these things.... I suggest:

"Gore-nament"

[guitharsis]

Glad I found this section. I play classical guitar and just started playing mandolin. I have a starter mandolin, a Mid Mo, and know that I would like to eventually have a bowlback because of my love of classical music and my Italian heritage. I expect to learn a lot from reading the posts. Does anyone have any suggestions or are any of you planning to list a bowlback in the near future?

[Jim Garber]

Glad I found this section. #I play classical guitar and just started playing mandolin. #I have a starter mandolin, a Mid Mo, and know that I would like to eventually have a bowlback because of my love of classical music and my Italian heritage. #I expect to learn a lot from reading the posts. #Does anyone have any suggestions or are any of you planning to list a bowlback in the near future?
I may have a few vintage American ones that I may relinquish at sokme time, tho i prefer to sell those that are playing instruments and set up to do so. If you are looking for italian vintage there have already been much discussion of various ones on this general classical area.

The big American names which you may have already surmised are Vega, Martin, Washburn and a few others. The big three Italian ones are Embergher, Calace and Vinaccia. There are subcategories and other makers that also are ones to look for.

Jim

[Bob A]

My sugestion would be to attempt to play several examples before contemplating a purchase. I note with some surprise you post from my hometown of Rochester NY. A visit to John Bernunzio might be worthwhile.

Sadly, I am not located there at this time. A pity, since I have a bunch of decent bowlbacks you'd be welcome to play. (If you find yourself in the WashDC area, drop me an email).

My experience with bowlbacks is that most need some repair or restoration. Decent US instruments are available from about 400 on up to a max of a couple grand. Good Italian instruments can be found near his price range, but a base of about 6-700 seems to be more realistic. You'll be forced rather higher for the top instruments by noted makers, since the competition for them is stiff in Europe and Japan.

While the BIg Three offer excellent instruments, there are lesser-known makers whose work is, ah, sound. Some of my favorite Italian bowlbacks were made by Mozzani, Salsedo and Monzino. Ceccherini is well thought of, as is De Meglio. Low-end DeMeglio instruments can be had for a reasonable price. It is best to purchase from a source that will permit evaluation and possible return; what suits one player may not please another.

I have several instruments in the repair/restoration pipeline. It is not out of the question that one or another might be available sometime; probably not for several months, though.

I've derived a lot of pleasure from an inexpensive Greek bowlback made last year. The sound and playability are excellent, though the aesthetic sensibility is not Italian by any means (think bouzouki decor).

Keep an eye on ebay for ideas of what's available and for how much. As you see, we post interesting examples here, and are willing to comment extensively on them. In my case, the willingness to comment extensively does not imply extensive knowledge, though enthusiasm counts for something.

[guitharsis]

Thanks for taking time to respond to my post, Jim and Bob.
Your posts were interesting and informative.

It is nice to hear from a former Rochesterian, Bob. I am familiar with Bernunzio's but haven't ever been there. Think they do mostly a mail order business but would be agreeable to someone stopping by on appointment.

I'm not in any big hurry to purchase a bowlback so I'll keep any eye on ebay and here at the cafe. It would be nice to have an Italian-made instrument, but a US instrument would be fine too.

Thanks again.
Doreen

[Martin Jonas]

This Angara & d'Isanto (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3740295926&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT) has come and gone on Ebay UK. I put in a bid for it, in my ongoing attempts to get a new bowlback for my mother, but I was outbid by the same Swiss buyer who also bought the recent Guiseppe Vinaccia. Again, this could potentially have been a pretty good buy, with its original case, but the seller was not very forthcoming with further information and I was reluctant to bid higher without a better idea of the straightness of the neck or the height of the action.

Martin

[guitharsis]

I've been checking out e-bay, Martin. There are a lot of bowlbacks for sale, at least at this time. That was kind of surprising to me. Good luck finding one for your mother.
Doreen

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, Doreen...

There are many bowlbacks for sale on eBay almost ALWAYS! Problem is, once you filter the crop du jour by some basic criteria, sadly few, very, very few pass muster. Still, there IS entertainment value in the quest... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Best of luck in yours.

[Martin Jonas]

Not really a bowlback of note as such, but I thought this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3742473505&rd=1) one is rather amusing. The little buttons are a bit of a giveaway that the current bridge position might not be entirely original...

Of considerably more merit is this Angara & d'Isanto (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3741378663&rd=1), which has only a few hours to go. There seem to be an awful lot of these Angara & d'Isanto coming up in the UK recently. Maybe they were predominatly distributed in this country, similar to what the situation seems to have been for Ceccherini.

Martin

[Eugene]

Not really a bowlback of note as such, but I thought this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3742473505&rd=1) one is rather amusing.
Well, it seems a bowlback to me. Whether or not it is "of note" certainly seems debatable!

[Martin Jonas]

Well, it seems a bowlback to me. #Whether or not it is "of note" certainly seems debatable!
That was indeed what I meant to imply.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"The little buttons are a bit of a giveaway that the current bridge position might not be entirely original..."

Clearly. Still, the question remains whether: A. the neck is warped waaaaaaaaay out of place, so that such a drastic repositioning of the bridge was necessary (and probably also futile), or B. the owner/seller is so clueless that (s)he actually thinks this is the right place for the bridge to be— the former possibility pathetic, the latter faintly amusing.

I like the de Meglio-esque clasp-vents, the grain of the wood, and the Puglisi-esque shield. "Of note", hmm... I don't know. If only one could quantify this by some reliable "Of-Note-For-The-Price" ratio... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ANY working bowlback is worth SOMEthing, I believe.

[Jim Garber]

Not really a bowlback of note as such, but I thought this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3742473505&rd=1) one is rather amusing. #The little buttons are a bit of a giveaway that the current bridge position might not be entirely original...
Not only that but the seller cannot read. The maker is Domenico Zanoni.

Jim

[Eugene]

Not only that but the seller cannot read. The maker is Domenico Zanoni.
Well, better such a typo than something like "Made by Fratelli!" or the like that often appears on eBay.

I just looked at the side-view across the table. Did you catch the height of that bridge!? ...And there obviously was no effort made to fit the bridge to the table. I ssuspect the bridge essentially is a visual prop installed only to sell the piece. This one might actually be functional if fit with a proper bridge in the proper position.

[Jim Garber]

I suppose that this one (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=2262321806&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V) could have been made uglier. Still it has some appeal... but not to me.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Not sure how I haven't seen this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3742174530&rd=1) one before, but it has only eight hours to go now with the price at 376 Pounds. Clearly a rather fancy mandolin, but is it really a Vinaccia, as suggested by the seller? The bridge doesn't look much like any Vinacchia I've seen.

Martin
(Not intending to bid as I'm not looking for a mandolin in that price range right now.)

[vkioulaphides]

A very nice instrument. Now, whether it is a Vinaccia... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Looking at the auction from the Efficient Market Theory standpoint —and after 26 bids as of this post— had it been authentic, it would have stood well above GBP 376 by now.

Still, I have seen no such butterflies, even on ornate Vinaccias. I would certainly call this a Vinaccia-type instrument, and bid for it within limits of reason as such. Hypothetically, that is... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Arto]

I´m pretty sure this is not "of note", maybe it´s not even a mandolin. What on earth is this? (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3742909352&rd=1)

[Jim Garber]

Sort of a tenor guitar I would guess.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

Here a bowlback of note: a fine looking 1966 Pasquale Pecoraro mandolin as come up to be auctioned at eBay UK.

Click here to find out more. (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3742842757&rd=1)


Best,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

A very nice instrument. Now, whether it is a Vinaccia... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #Looking at the auction from the Efficient Market Theory standpoint —and after 26 bids as of this post— had it been authentic, it would have stood well above GBP 376 by now.
With 36 minutes to go, it is now at GBP1556 (almost $3000). #Clearly, the efficient markets do think it's a Vinaccia. #Actually, 35 of the 45 bids are by the same person (also the current high bidder) and he's new to Ebay. #I just hope there won't be tears somewhere.

Martin

PS: Finished now with no further bids.

[vkioulaphides]

As I am sure you surmised, Martin, I am hardly an E.M.T. aficionado. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif My (slightly malicious) skepticism about this instrument may therefore be more, not less rewarded by the outcome. I confess, however, that I failed to do due diligence: Had I noticed (as you did) that the majority of bids had come from the same person, then the "real", or "discounted" number of bid(der)s would have shrunk to very, very few, thereby voiding any vague notion of efficiency.

Oh, well... I hope the buyer is happy with his/her new toy— at a price! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

The Pecoraro, in its stark simplicity, is quite a find!

[Jim Garber]

What is this Embergher wannabe (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=10682&query=retrieval)? Any clue to the maker? Looks considerably less quality than the Embergher school graduates I know of: Cerrone and Peccoraro.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Looks considerably less quality than the Embergher school graduates I know of: Cerrone and Peccoraro.
Speaking of which, the Pecoraro (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3742842757&rd=1) on Ebay UK has 19 hours to go, with no bids at 800 Pounds (admittedly quite a bit more than the one that Jim found in the classifieds). There are some new photos, by the way, since the time that Alex posted about this one, and they are absolutely enormously sized.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

As to the Peccoraro... it is also strange that the seller actually quoted three of the interested bidders (including one from Japan). It is likely that it will sell and that there will be bids at either the last minute or after the auction is over.

On the other hand we may see a notice that the "item is no longer for sale." Those notices drive me crazy.

Looks like a nice simply-adorned one. How do the other quality Embergher-clones -- from his disciples -- compare to the real Emberghers? Is this one that one would call an "orchestra model" as opposed to a "soloist"?

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

The Roman wannabe in Jim´s post comes from the MUSIKALIA - Dott. Alfio Leone - Musical Instruments Factory (look at the "Embergh" or Roman style Mandolin Model Numbers 609, 609s and 609sic in the general Musical instrument list) #. Click here to find their #Website and the instrument list. Click at the mandolin ikon (http://www.musikalia.it/en/english2.htm).

As you will notice this particular model offered for sale or swop is their most simplistic and plainest model (No.609).


Best,

Alex