Old time VS Bluegrass

[Jefa432]

I am trying to start an old time/traditional stringband(eg Foghorn Stringband, Reeltime Travelers etc.)The trouble is when we play old time songs we always tend to sound more like bluegrass instead of old time. What would be some suggestions to get more of the old time sound. Or better yet what makes the old time sound as opposed to bluegrass? Thanks

[thiggins]

Floppy/thinner pick, a little out of tune http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif , think "shuffle", lots of open strings, and pretend you're a fiddler. Don't forget to emphasize the back beat, that's what gets the dancers really going. Less or no "chop" at all, that's not really a tradition in old time.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Tim

[John Flynn]

The guy who taught me OT mando said that until you really have the OT "flow" and know what will fit and what won't in that genre, stick with straight boom-chuck open chords on rhythm, no chops, emphasizing the bass strings. Stay off the treble strings except for occasional emphasis. On lead, play the melody straight until you really get the OT sound down. Improvization is more subtle in OT.

Also, in OT, the lead melody instrument, usually the fiddler, or the best fiddler in the group, leads everything. Everyone follows what that one "Alpha" instrument is doing in all respects and no one ever plays at a higher volume level than that instrument.

The guitar should not play any leads or melody, but should concentrate on boom-chuck strums with three note bass runs to "announce" chord changes. The bass, if there is one, should be subtle. The banjo should be playing clawhammer style, either without a resonator or muted somehow and should help keep the ryhthm steady by hitting on chord tones and just key melody notes, something that some banjo players don't get because it is not thier role in BG. OT banjo instructors preach, "You don't have to play the whole melody! Keep the rhythm!"

I should say these are all "rules" that can be broken when your group really knows what it is doing in OT, but as the saying goes, you need to really know the rules before you can break them.

[Tom C]

I may be wrong but doesn't everybody play melody together and there is very little (if any) rythm playing?

[ourgang]

In Old Time music the guitar is playing bass walks as well as rythmn primarily, the banjo is claw hammer or drop thumb style and the mandolin is usually playing along with a melody line, not much chording, the fiddle is the lead and the bass is doing what the bass does. This is what I noticed watching the old time string bands.

Just my 2 cents

[Smyers]

The old time sound was much more mellow from the mando to be sure, as already inferred by everyoen else. #Pick up an old A model or old flatback if you don't already have one. #That will help to get the right "tone". #If you want authenticity you need to realize that Old Time was originally played on pre Gibson instruments. #It was played in East KY, East TN and WV, where the Scotch-Irish settled after migrating here from the potato famine. #They didn't have Gibson A's. #They originally played on bowlbacks and later adopted flatbacks. #Think about the sound of old flatbacks, which have a deeper sound as they have more body volume making their resonance lower.

I agree that the old time music was based around dancing, so the backbeat does have to feel different than bluegrass.

Keep workin' at it!

[Fred Keller]

I don't know the lineup of the band you've got, but a few thoughts I have are these:

Make sure the guitar is not doing Lester Flatt g-runs. Walking bass lines are ok, but think Carter-family and not Del McCoury Family.

Mando stays off the chop as was said above. Learn the melody. Strum the rhythm like Vernon Clifton and other old mando players did. Think of Soldier's Joy. Now instead of picking the notes, strum the chords to the rhythm of the tune. Learn a harmony line to the melody--this can be quite beautiful when it's done in moderation.

I don't think you need to change picks, but when you play leads on mando you definitely want to get some drones in there. I totally agree with the notion that open strings are your friends.

Don't take "breaks." Old time is not an improvisational music form the way bluegrass is. There's room for it in subtle ways, but it's not right up front like it is in BG.

If you've got a banjo player, is he/she Scruggs or clawhammer? It's tougher to get an oldtime sound with Scruggs-style. One way to get a more OT sound is to have them play without picks.

You mentioned that when you play OT SONGS you get into trouble. Make sure that when you sing, you don't do bluegrass harmonies. Most of the time, the lead and the fifth (or the third) is about all the harmony you need for OT...if you have any at all. When an instrument plays a solo, don't play a break. Play the melody. Or you can all play the melody together.

That's enough from me. Sorry to run on!

[Jefa432]

Thanks guys, thats exactly the kind of info I was looking for. The comment about the old A model is interesting, I never thought about that. #While I was typing my post earlier I started thinking that it could also be the songs we are chosing. #Any suggestions? #Also, does anyone know a web site/message board as good as this one that is set up for old time? #Thanks again, you guys hav been very helpful.

[Fred Keller]

There is an old time forum:

Sugar In The Gourd (http://forum.sugarinthegourd.com/)

I do think A-styles are more widely accepted in OT (and they do have that lovely rounded, slightly plinky tone), but I don't think that should stop you from playing an F-style either. Compton and Long are doing some dang fine OT stuff on F-style mandolins.

[Michael H Geimer]

I lean towards the Old-Time style, and am a big fan of The Carter Family repetoire.

In my efforts to find musicians to play with, I have run acorss two primary 'deal-breakers' ... stylewise.

a) Three-finger banjo players, or players of other instruments who nevertheless want that fast pickin' sound in the group.

b) Players who get bored playing melody and want to improvise more breaks.

Both of those tendencies will pull the group sound away from Old-Time and towards ... well, something else. Bluegrass, Jamgrass, Hippie-Jug-Band, FolkPunk. There are all sorts of string band variants, old and new.

I'm very happy these days playing in the Brother Duet style with my sweetie. Me on guitar or clawhammer banjo, providing the harmony singing. Her voice is all she really needs, but she's also making a good effort to learn mountain dulcimer.

The Monroe Brothers are a good middleground between Old-Time Coutry Blues and the later defined Bluegrass sound.

Good luck finding that sound that most stirs your soul!

- Benig

[Mike Williams]

Listen to Carl Jones's playing (check out CDs by Carl Jones and Beverley Smith). That should teach you all you need to know. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

These two make for some good listening.

[thiggins]

Grab some of Pete Sutherland's stuff too, he's like the
Itzhak Perlman of old time.

Tim

[lanexa]

In addition to Compton/Long, Skip Gorman plays some incredible OT on F-style mandos, in addtion to an old Regal he plays the snot out of.

Give Curtis Buckhannon a listen.

I also really like the sound that Caleb K. gets out of his F-style with the Foghorn Stringband.

[cooper4205]

is that clarence or tom ashley with doc? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Paul Kotapish]

is that clarence or tom ashley with doc? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yep. Wasn't amazing how similar those guys were?

http://www.clarenceashley.com/about.html

[cooper4205]

he was a slick 'un weren't he?

[Paul Kotapish]

There are lots of different kinds of "old-time" mandolin playing, and it ranges from the ragged-but-right approach to a more refined chamber sound to really driving pre-bluegrass style. In my mind, bluegrass is just a particularly well-developed branch of contemporary old-time music, but scholars differ.

I would concur that among many slippery characteristics is the preference for ensemble melody playing over individual solos, open string chording over closed-position chop chords, and soloing that hews close to the melody.

For string band ensemble playing, I like the Kenny Hall recordings with the Sweets Mill String Band. I think they've been reissued recently.

And I really liked the way Jerry Mitchell played mandolin with the old Gypsy Gyppo String Band. Their LP is hard to find, but worth looking for. That was my favorite mandolin-driven sound of the '70s revival bands.

Clyde Curley has a nice tape of old-time mandolin in a string-band setting with the Oxymorons.

For the old-time brother-duet style, the Blue Sky Boys are pretty hard to beat. The early Monroe Brothers stuff is spectacular, but even in that setting Bill is playing in a pretty advanced, idiosyncratic style. And don't forget the Louvin Brothers.

Norman Blake's mandolin playing crosses genres, but I consider him a fine old-time mandolin player. And Jody Stecher, too. Ditto on Carl Jones and Mike Compton.

Mike Seeger has a nice little book/CD method on Homespun here. (http://www.thepickinparlor.com/Old_Time_Country_Mandolin_p/641593.htm)

[cooper4205]

one of my books for my "country music: then & now" class has a pic of the blue sky boys in it, the mandolin player is playing an old lyon & healy style-A. you also might want to check out some recordings of the johnson brothers, they were another really old string band that had mandolin.

there are also some really good replies, besides the ones already here, to in a post further down in this section about OT strumming patterns.

[John Flynn]

A must have CD for the OT style, IMHO, is John Hartford's "Speed of the Old Long Bow." It's got liner notes from Hartford where he discusses what "improvization" means in OT. His words are genius and I have never seen advice like that anywhere else. Also, Compton plays mando on it and the tunes are great examples of the sound with a full group.

I asked Compton about those liner notes at a workshop and he had us try some of the techniques in that workshop. We found out the truth of his words: To do it right, you have to really listen to each other, it's a lot harder than you would think and you never know exactly what's going to happen.

[Michael H Geimer]

The early Monroe Brothers stuff is spectacular, but even in that setting Bill is playing in a pretty advanced, idiosyncratic style.

I know what you mean. Bill's got his own thing going even at that point. That era is my personal favorite for both his playing and singing.

[lanexa]

Ditto on the "Speed of the old long bow" record. I've asked Compton about this before and he said, in a manner of words, that he was really just experimenting...listening to what everyone else was doing. That's some damn fine listening, if you ask me.

For earlier mando work, check out Coley Jones & the Dallas String band, too.

[Perry]

I triple “Speed of the Old Long Bow”; I've been listening to it all week.

The liner notes contain all types of interesting advice.

The bit about only letting the melody instruments and not the rhythm section play the "off" chords (flat 7's and minors) is particularly intriguing and I suspect a big contributing factor to the "old time sound". It must create quite a bit of tension. Can't wait to try it.

I’ve also been reading and working with this excellent book which contains quite a few of the tunes on “Speed”:

http://www.amazon.com/Old-Tim....3122007 (http://www.amazon.com/Old-Time-Kentucky-Fiddle-Tunes-Titon/dp/0813122007)

[JeffD]

Boy there are times I wish these comments could be posted at our OT jams. Dead on target from my experience.

In summary

Muted clawhammer banjo
Mandolin playing the melody or a close melodic harmony
Follow the strongest fiddler
No taking breaks
Subtle if any improvisation
Play sitting down (I added that one)


Jeff

[homermando]

pick a fiddle tune like "Soldier`s Joy" and listen to bluegrass and old time versions of it. Usually the backbeat, (the 2 and 4) pushes the 1 and 3 pretty hard in bluegrass. But in old time the backbeat is not so "urgent" and the feel of the song is more laid back. So too the tempo is usually slower. Think about what would make the music danceable. An old time player told me once that dancing is the focus of old time not the instrumentalists per say. Course we were playing a dance at the time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jmcgann]

I think deep listening to the masters of the style should answer the original question of how best to get the sound of old time (or any style for that matter!) without the bluegrass influence.

[earthsave]

I am trying to start an old time/traditional stringband(eg Foghorn Stringband, Reeltime Travelers etc.)The trouble is when we play old time songs we always tend to sound more like bluegrass instead of old time. What would be some suggestions to get more of the old time sound. Or better yet what makes the old time sound as opposed to bluegrass? Thanks
Good descriptions from everyone. I agree about having a strong melody fiddler. Dickel Brothers come to mind, they were driven by Clancy's fiddle.

I'd say just go with what feels and sounds right to the group. If you have fun playing a song a certain way, just go with it.

We play Old Time in a Bluegrass style, or sometimes Bluegrass in an Old Time style. I try to play more ringing open chords when we do the Old Time stuff, since I struggle with playing the melody.

[Don Christy]

I just finished taking an advanced OT ensemble class lead by a very good claw hammer banjo player and I agree with most everything that's been said here.

In addition to all the great comments here, my instructor mentioned that the other instruments should really pay attention to how the lead fiddler is playing and try to pick up/mimic their stylings, noting the little slides, drones, double stops etc and trying to do something similar on their instruments. You really shouldn't play your version of the melody. Pay attention to the fiddler's version. With a good fiddler, this can be tough as they vary the melodie slightly as the song progresses.

Also, while the mando and banjo are melody instruments, they should play plenty of rhythm and not just the melody all the time. As noted above, the OT rhythm style for mando is very different from BG. Ringing chords that kind-of shuffle along with the melody as oppposed to the closed chop chord.

In my opinion, the guitar plays a huge role in the OT sound. Really nailing the beat and creating a rhymthic foundation for dancing. It's important that at key points all the instruments come together and nail those 1 and 3 beats. When you create that indescribable "ooomph" feel, you know you've got it.

Don

[mikeyes]

Since OT (like Irish) is dance music, my mantra is that if you kill the dancer, you are playing too fast <G> Mostly I just try to parallel the fiddle. Our old time band plays a lot of dances and we try to push the dancers a little with pulse (not speed) and that works very well.

I am a big Foghorn String Band fan and they use a three fingered Snuffy Jenkins/Wade Goodrich style of banjo that is a lot like Earl, but plays the melody along with the rest of the band. (To say that you have to only play clawhammer,esp a specific style of clawhammer is not historically correct when you refer to old time music. You will find tenor banjos in the mix if you listen to old records.) It is a good band to listen to because the mandolin can be heard (he plays an F-5) and because you can tell how he plays.

Like any music, you have to listen before you play a lot. That way you have a feel for the music and won't be as tied to BG. Make your band members listen a little and see if they really want to play OT.

Mel Bay Banjosessions (http://www.banjosessions.com)

[Red Englemann]

What would be some suggestions to get more of the old time sound.

Here is my two cents. Old time music was produced out of what was available and handed down. If you hear a song, say Sally Goodin,try to interpret it as you remember it and be original. Think of it as something that someone is going to dance to and make it rhythmic.

Most old timey musicains that I like are very original.

red

[Strange1]

What I would have liked to heard on this thread was a link to listen to a given tune played OT and then the same tune played BG style. Wish I had the resources and knowledge to post something like this but sadly I don't. Anyone?.............
BTW, here is a link to an individual take on this very subject However, the author seems to lean toward OT music a bit too much methinks. http://www.dwightdiller.com/bluegrass.html
Jack

[Red Englemann]

What I would have liked to heard on this thread was a link to listen to a given tune played OT and then the same tune played BG style

Try YouTube. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

red

[Soupy1957]

My exposure to "old time" backwoods music was:

a) The music seemed to have a slower tempo. (not
always, but most), in my opinion.
b) The lyric was more important than the band.
c) The vocals were unpolished and sometimes a bit
off-key. (I like "unpolished" myself)
d) If you owned any instrument, it didn't matter
WHO made it, or what it was. Just bring it
and play it (resulting in some strange combos
at times).

Random thoughts from
-Soupy1957

[Red Englemann]

My exposure to "old time" backwoods music was:

Good thoughts. Here in East Tennessee, South Western , VA and Western NC is where a significant brand of old time music had it roots.

I recently attended a concert by an 85 year old fiddler named Clyde Davenport, a third generation fiddler with a collect of songs including some Civil War tunes. He explained that when the Union took back the fort at Cumberland Gap, "Fire on the Mountain" was being played on a fiddle. He said that during a time the fiddle was the only instrument the people had. Therefore the styles followed the melody and lyrics were important as you mention. This is great old history.

When I think of BG, the tempo is increased dramatically and those breaks are more like an electric guitar "riff" than a melody. I think that BG is a spectator product where fast pace equals more entertainment or excitment.

I am concentrating on old time with all four of the instruments I play. I have a good selection of Norman Blake's material and lots of old time fiddle.

red

[JGWoods]

Red I think you're right on the money, except maybe the part about speed, maybe. Around here- New England- there's lots of fast playing in Old Time ( or maybe it just seems fast to me?). Then again I don't pay any attention to bluegrass and maybe they play really realy fast, though I can't think of why anyone would. Maybe they don't like the song?

[gnelson651]

pick a fiddle tune like "Soldier`s Joy" and listen to bluegrass and old time versions of it. Usually the backbeat, (the 2 and 4) pushes the 1 and 3 pretty hard in bluegrass. But in old time the backbeat is not so "urgent" and the feel of the song is more laid back. So too the tempo is usually slower.:)
You're absolutely right on there.

I've been jamming biweekly with an OT fiddle group for about 2 years now but decided to cross over to bluegrass.

At my first BG jam, I tried to play "Soldiers Joy" as I usually do in my break. I quickly found out it didn't work, the beat was way off. Fortunately I quickly recovered and was able to adapt my playing to the BG beat.

Quite a learning experience and a good reason to always listen to what the other players are doing.

[Red Englemann]

Maybe they don't like the song?


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #Great line. When I think of speed I think of Monroe and Scaggs. Everything Ricky does was fast and loud when me and my wife saw him last Winter.

Your point is well taken regarding some old time being fast. I was thinking about some of the Cape Breton material I have listened to. I play fiddle and I like to slow it down and emphysize the shuffles more intentionally and mix up the tempo like I have heard these guys around here do. Blake says he's slowed down and mentioned that Peter Ostrusko has to.

Red

[Michael H Geimer]

Riddle me this, folks ...

I don't play Bluegrass, but neither do I play Old-Timey in the Banjo and Fiddle sense, or even the Cape Brenton sense.

What I do play is that 'tweener' style mentioned earlier ... Carter Family songs, Stanley Brothers duets. I love the Norman and Nancy stuff.

I usually describe the songs as Early American Country, or sometimes Country Blues, and when appropriate I'll say it's done in the Bother Duet Style.

Anyone have a better descriptor for the stuff I play?

(He he he ... I guess the difference between a "Brother Duet" and a "Bother Duet" is for the audience to decide, eh? )

[Mike Buesseler]

Benig,

I suppose you need to put a name on the type of music you play for people who haven't heard you. For my money, I like your stuff and style as well as any music I can think of. I mean it.

I think Early American Country is close enough. That's certainly what I'd call Norman Blake's music (he's my other hero, btw... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif )

[Soupy1957]

If I had to be "fast & perfect to be accepted in the Bluegrass community, I'd cut up my mando for firewood!

Let the "pros" play fast and perfect; I'm just a steady, slow beginner.


-Soupy1957

[Red Englemann]

I came accross this article on Norman. He had many influences and opinions. He has been my favorite for over 20 years.

red

http://www.acousticguitar.com/issues/ag82/CoverStory.shtml

[Michael H Geimer]

Thanks MikeB!

I gotta get a new space for my recordings. Then I can post something with Renée I singing together. Her talent *significantly* adds to the sound!

Only trouble is, I'm on guitar 99% of the time these days ... so, now we need a mandolin player!

[Michael H Geimer]

Red, thanks for that link ... Norman provided the answer I seek.


BLAKE If you say "old-time music" nowadays, the first thing that comes to mind is the fiddle-and-banjo dance crowd. I feel a little bit put off by that, because while I like that very much and have certainly been involved in that, I just feel that old-time music is a broader thing. It’s sort of like bluegrass. You have this straight blinder approach of what is bluegrass too, and it’s gotten to be so generic. And I think old-time music is kind of generic now. And that’s a little sad, because old-time music is everything that’s ever gone on for the last however many hundred years. It’s certainly been more than just fiddle tunes.

[allenhopkins]

The original old-time musicians didn't know there were "rules"; they played with what they had and in the style they knew. If there was a cello, piano, Autoharp or harmonica player in the group, no one said that he/she wasn't "supposed" to be playing that style of music. Bands like the Allen Brothers featured tenor banjo; the Three Stripped Gears led with banjo-mandolin; the Red Fox Chasers had a lead harmonica player; the Prairie Ramblers had a prominent mandola. Whatever worked.
Playing old-time rather than bluegrass mando, I tend to use a lot of open-string chords, and to play a fast up-and-down rhythm that mimics the fiddle's phrasing. Sometimes I double fiddle melody, or even add simple harmony lines. The wonderful characteristic of the mandolin is that it can shift from rhythm to melody and back.
And I second the recommendation to listen to the Blue Sky Boys if you're thinking about getting into the "brother duet"style. Bill Bolick's mandolin is like a third voice in the group sometimes, and when he uses it for instrumental interludes, he generally just plays the vocal melody. Works beautifully. It's interesting that quite a few of the duets used mandolin -- Monroe Brothers, Louvin Brothers, etc. It's a great fit.

[jmcgann]

It's a great idea to listen to individual performers as well as bands; and don't assume that whatever your local oldtime jam session sounds like is what you should go for...the best oldtime music is just like the best of any style of music- in tune and in time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Soupy1957]

I hear a lot of "Sacred Harp Music" (like the choir in "Cold Mountain") that is most likely another source for the old time music, along with the Celtic stuff.

-Soupy1957

[Peter Hackman]

I've seen this discussion for about 40 years and it never ceaes to amaze me.

Listen to the New Lost City Ramblers, or, better even, the anthologies and original records they learned from. An extremely varied area of music, very impure, with ingredients from the popular music of the day, along with the blues, church music, and old modal songs that had to be fitted with new music to accomodate, e.g., the guitar, etc. Listen to the many styles of guitar, both fingerpicked and flatpicked, and banjo.

Monroe's BG music took off from some of the
trends, Roy Acuff from others (different instruments:dobro,harmonica,piano);
then there were the McGhee Brothers, mainstays on the Opry, Stringbean, and before him, Uncle Dave Macon. Clayton McMichen, Cliff Carlisle, ...

If there's anything to learn from these older groups it's variety and open-mindedness.

In the early sixties I played in a trio in Stockholm, me on guitar
and sometimes banjo, Gary Johansson banjo and autoharp, and Peter Kaukonen on guitar and mandolin, and we combined these instruments
in various ways to incorporate influences from the Carters, from Bluegrass, and whatever we picked up, that suited our temperaments and backgrounds.
I believe Peter threw in some of the Rev. Davis stuff he knew so well, too.

We didn't think of ourselves as old-time, nor BG, we were just playing music,
but we were definitely a string band - we called ourselves The Koznowski String Band as some kind of non-declaration.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

such a good discussion. thank you all. strikes home to a mandolin player in the middle.
I have little to add other than, as said well above, true old time is music de jour (du nuit). What you hear/can play is what you got. Nowadays some rules tagalong, but wherever I go (and have gone) , I don't (thankfully didn't) get the boot.
Benigus, allan, johnny, Red and Glenn, great posts, not to exclude others.
It is a joy to let the open strings ring (and slyly stretch the melody abit down the neck!).
Bluegrass is about bluegrass, and you are lucky when you find some who want to and can play it. Of course it is spectator, that's what it was created for.

Want more listening ideas? Marty Stuart. And I second the Skip Gorman suggestion.



rasa
Jonathan Reinhardt

[mythicfish]

... and just in case no one mentioned it: Old-Time music is better than it sounds.

Curt

[Soupy1957]

I'll put a plug in here for the Bethany,CT BMAD (Bluegrass Music and Dance) even though someone will say this should be in the "Regional Jams" section.

As I wander the various rooms and participate in the songs being played (as best I can, which usually means "good" on guitar, and "weak" on Mando), I particularly migrate back to one particular room in the house at this monthly gathering, where the songs being done are more at a "controlled" pace, and there is less "competition" going on. The songs being played are the more "traditional" or "older" songs.

There are OTHER rooms in that house where the instrumentalists are trying to out do each other, and the air is full of competition.

-Soupy1957

[jmcgann]

... and just in case no one mentioned it: Old-Time music is better than it sounds.


sometimes http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif