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ira
Apr-21-2004, 11:38pm
we want to do an old leadbelly tune on acoustic guitar and mando. my partner plays a great slide and i want him to be able to do it on this song as it would be perfect (playing mando and harmonica i do alot of the leads, and though on harp i am decent he is a way better guitar player then i am a mando player). how should i play the rythm for his lead so it sounds decent. in other words- open ringing chords, closer to a 1-3 chop? any other tricks?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
please-anyone who has played rythm on mando in a duo with a guitarist, i need some help.

thanks,
ira
ps- the song is where did you sleep last night by leadbelly

peterbc
Apr-22-2004, 1:34am
I'd let it ring, you probably don't want a tight chop in a leadbelly tune!

mandocrucian
Apr-22-2004, 7:54am
Rhythm Mandolin Boot Camp (http://www.ext.vt.edu/resources/4h/northern/adult.html#rhythmbootcamp), Fri.-Sun. May 7-9th. #Front Royal, VA

ira
Apr-22-2004, 7:59am
mandocrucian- unfortunately finances and distance prohibit my ability to go to va. for your camp. if you have a tidbit you wouldn't mind throwing out to me here, i'd surely appreciate it.

ira

duuuude
Apr-22-2004, 8:14am
How 'bout find a smooth little rhythm/light chop kinda thing on double-stops that'll keep the changes goin' for him, or even a light trem here & there on double-stops. Guess it would depend alot on the tune, which one ya tacklin'?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Michael H Geimer
Apr-22-2004, 9:05am
I've been finding it more usefull to concentrate on the percussive aspects of back-up, more so than the harmonic. What I've been doing lately is playing open chords, but 'choking them back' with the side of my right hand. That way the open chord can ring and give some impression of the chord, but it gets smacked down on the 2's and 4's when my palm hit the fingerboard extension and makes a nice 'click'. So the whole thing goes ... chord, slap, chord, slap instead of the typical Bluegrass mute, chop, mute, chop.

On a side note ... I *always* change my rhythm part around when someone drops out to take a lead, but I'm surprise how many other players don't even think about *covering* for the part that just dropped out. My suggestion above is really just a mando-imitation of a guitar's boom, chuck, boom, chuck, done to keep a steady pulse going when the guitar moves away into single notes.

So, maybe what you want to do is just listen to what your friend is normally playing, and try to incorporate some of that texture into you back-up part when he takes a break.

- Benig

John Flynn
Apr-22-2004, 9:13am
My two cents: Play open chords and emphasize the bass strings much more than the treble strings. Only ring the treble stings every now and then for emphasis. They are too bright to be heard constantly. Blues has its own rhythms, mostly different from bluegrass or old-time. Play along with CDs of good blues guitar players to get rhythm ideas.

bjc
Apr-22-2004, 11:40am
Double and triple stops probably will sound good...don't have my mando with me, but you can play some nice blues sounding backing using:
X--------
X--------
--2----
---3----
or
X------
---3
---2
---3
for a more 7th sounding thing
X--------

mandocrucian
Apr-22-2004, 7:40pm
ps- the song is where did you sleep last night by leadbelly

Sorry I don't know this particular tune. Not knowing the tune, the groove you want to put it to, or how your friend plays (and at what level), or how you play and what level.... I couldn't begin to give any particular suggestions. # I'd probably do something different if the slide guitar was playing high up in register than if it was on the low strings. Depending on the particulars, there's probably a dozen different options.

You could try to play "harmonica backup" on the mandolin. Do what you would do on harp but on mando. #Have you ever thought about this option? #Can you get around well enough on the mando to make that idea work?

What would your friend play if he was overdubbing a backup part for his slide solo? #Well then, get him to teach you the part, and then you'll have to figure out how to tweak it to get a similar effect on 8-strings which are in a higher register.

Function function function. #Source instrument (piano, guitar, organ, drums, whatever) is irrelevant. It's not the instrument, it's the function it fulfils. Understand the function, and you can start to transfer that role to other instruments (inc. mando)

Niles Hokkanen

mcmando
Apr-22-2004, 8:07pm
FWIW-- I've been to his workshops-- the Mandocrucian knows of which he speaks.

duuuude
Apr-23-2004, 12:58pm
Function function function. #Source instrument (piano, guitar, organ, drums, whatever) is irrelevant. It's not the instrument, it's the function it fulfils. Understand the function, and you can start to transfer that role to other instruments (inc. mando)
Well said Niles, something I often forget in the midst of a jam. Funny how a little sugestion like that can open up a whole new way of listening to what's being played.
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Michael H Geimer
Apr-23-2004, 2:18pm
" Well said Niles ... " Ditto, Duuuude.

One of these days, I'm gonna need to head out East and go to a Hokkanen workshop, as I really really enjoy your comments, Niles. Thanks.

duuuude
Apr-23-2004, 2:48pm
Better that Niles come to fall Strawberry to do a workshop!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

smilnJackB
Jun-03-2004, 11:05am
Hey, it's nice to find someone else doing Ledbelly with mando, guitar and harp. I do not know the song you mentioned, but I would like to hear it. I did Ledbelly's Midnight Special and Irene Goodnight with my old group. I did a harp instrumental on Midnight. We kept Irene Goodnight simple, no breaks, instrumentals etc.
I am a play for fun guy with mediocre skills, but the advice I have is this: the rhythm player plays quietly enough for the lead to be heard. He/she keeps good time and listens to the lead player. If the lead player gets off time, the rhythm player adapts to stay with the lead.
This is what I try to do on either end - lead or rhythm. Best wishes. Jack

bluesmandolinman
Jun-04-2004, 12:14pm
Hello Ira

Donīt get me wrong ( this is NO offend to you just an inspiration )but donīt look for excuses when saying "no money " to go to the mandocrucianīs rhythm bootcamp . Iīm sure you have at least 5(?) instruments. So sell the one you didnīt like too much, and put the money into good teaching lessons. When I have been to VA ( from Germany !) the deal with my wife was : Ok you can go there but you are prohibited to buy another instrument for the next 12 month. Thatīs what I did . And the Instruments I already have had sounded so much better ( due to better picking from me... great job from Niles ) that it was a full success !!! Get lesons instead of satisfying your MAS. But again NO offend to you just my 2 cent.

Ok back to the topic. My Guitar friend always says the mandolin sound is not "full enough" to provide the back up. So last time I brought my Gibson Mandola with me and ... he kept smiling the rest of the evening because he was able to play the high notes while i provided back up with the lower voice of the mandola ( I smiled too by the way). But thatīs just an option soundwise and does not answer you question...

What should you play as back up ? Try :

1.Walking Bass Boogie Lines on the "Bass" strings ( G D A )
2.Play Shuffle a la Jimmie Reed / Chuck Berry ... sounds great on the Mandolin ( you only need the G and D string ... at least when the song is in G )
3. Use Stops !!( breaks)sometimes... which directs the atention of the audience to the guitar lines
4. Use open chords for slow songs
5. Use Chop chords only on very fast blues songs ( if you stuck on chop chords )

The mandocrucian will at least ad another 10 possibilities and he is able to really explain it. ( i am a bad teacher sorry)

By the way a good topic Ira !

Cheers ,Renéhttp://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

bluesmandolinman
Jun-04-2004, 12:26pm
also...

I read over Niles comments again and I fully agree when he says :

"What would your friend play if he was overdubbing a backup part for his slide solo? Well then, get him to teach you the part, and then you'll have to figure out how to tweak it to get a similar effect on 8-strings which are in a higher register "

I would go even farther !!! Give the mandolin to your guitar friend and let HIM play what he thinks will fit. Well I did and although his playing was quite " basic" ( he doesnīt has a mando so normally never practice it) it supported his songs sooo good ! And the guitar player will definetly play other things on the mando than a mando player would do. This way I learnt some of my best and most often used blues mandolin back up and licks.

Give it a try !

ira
Jun-06-2004, 10:14am
rene- i like most of your suggestions, and will certainly try them ( i already ask my partner to teach me the licks he would like on certain songs, as he is a longtime and talented guitar player).

i am certainly not offended by your suggestions re: money for lessons, though i will advise you not to assume. i only have 2 mandos, and though i crave more, i would rather send my kids to daycamp, or take a family trip than to buy another at this time. i am happy for you that you are able to say 12 months without an instrument and you can fly across the ocean for a mando program with niles. it isn't a possibility for me now.

peace,
ira

Marc
Jun-06-2004, 4:40pm
Hi Ira,
I think the back up is going to depend on the pace you want to play the song. I've heard this tune played in waltz time, 4/4 and minor and major variations as well. I based the tune 'Pinewood Waltz' on it in G minor and 3/4 time (with a new bridge section I wrote), but it's a slow variation and sounds strangely Jewish! (There's a brief sound clip at www.belmando.com of one verse then the bridge then a final verse).

I think for accompanying the guitar lead you have to use ringing chords to make a full sound but still hold a strong rhythm. At the same time you've gotta control your volume to make sure you're accompanying, not dominating, which mandolins with their tight punchy sound can easily do. I'm sure you'll work it out just fine.
Marc
www.belmando.com

handpicked
Jun-06-2004, 6:23pm
I'm no expert, but $.02...
I'm partial to three finger 7th chord triads for blues (see bjc's post for his "7th sounding thing")...you can do a funky 'chank', cross-pick 'em, slide into 'em from a half-step above or below...and combine all of those so that your comping is (hopefully) fluid and dynamic...creating interesting counterpoint...easier said than done...I am much more accomplished at this on guitar than mando myself.
And the Chuck Berry "johnny b. goode" double-stop walking pattern #(or variations thereon) can be useful in most any blues tempo.

Sorry for any repetition, I shoulda read the whole thread before posting.

ira
Jun-07-2004, 6:19pm
no prob handpicked- i liked your suggestions. actually starting to get the hang of rythm for lead in certain songs- though not nec. blues- 2 songs with minor twists- knockin on heaven's door and santana-evil ways. open chords -2 and 3 fingers, and steady rythm, though bringing the volume and the attack down a notch. really sounding way better. also doin it a bit on willin (lil feat), and that is sounding pretty good as well.

michaell
Jun-07-2004, 8:17pm
HI-I'm sure that Niles will elucidate these issues for all,
however, for those of us on the West Coast, I'll be covering some of this information at the California Traditional Music Society's Summer Solstice Festival-June 25-26, in Calabasas, CA.
Hey-I'm not Niles, but, then again, who is?

Michael Lampert

ira
Jun-08-2004, 3:12pm
hey michaell - share a little tidbit with us here on the cafe. what is one suggestion you could share on this topic.

smilnJackB
Jun-09-2004, 8:13pm
Ira,
I learned Ledbelly's Where Did You Sleep Last Night after your mention of the song. Good song.
What key do you play it in? I first learned it in E like on the CD I have, but now have changed it to G in 3/4 time. I plan to get better at the instrumental and play it at a jam on the 19th with my wife playing mando.
Jack
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

smilnJackB
Jun-09-2004, 8:16pm
Ira,
I re-read your note starting the thread. Your friend plays slide, so I can guess you are doing the song in G, since that is the most common open tuning. Have you tried playing slide?
Jack

ira
Jun-09-2004, 9:22pm
yes, but poorly......

Marc
Jun-10-2004, 4:29pm
G major or minor, and 3/4 or 4/4?
Marc
www.belmando.com

michaell
Jun-11-2004, 12:10am
Re: Ira's request: There is no substitute for listening and imitation- it's really how most people learn.

Michael

ira
Jun-17-2004, 10:31am
as stated in another thread, i just got yank r. pig trader blues. just yank and david morgan (guitar), playin a variety of blues tunes. what was interesting was the way they traded leads and licks. lots of concurrent playing of melody and rythm. 2 things i liked best about the combo re: rythm for a guitar lead.
1. playing a little softer (which i'm doing already and has really worked) while the guitar takes the forefront.
2. rather than playing the rythm, yank often plays the melody in kind of a syncopated train of double stops (prob. not the right terminology, but i hope you can picture it).
if this topic is of interest, i think that the pig trader album is worthwhile for ideas.

ira
Jun-22-2004, 9:26am
played a yank tune the other night (don't remember the name- chorus- don't believe that woman love me no more)as a spontaneous thing as the chord structure in another blues song that my partner was playing sounded similar, so we went back and forth between the two. it was a blast. i tried to get those bluesy tremolos going the way yank does, and basically pic'd , double stopped and played tremolo throughout behind the vocals of both tunes. sounded really good slidin around in single notes, double stops were a little less clean (i need to practice), but since it was a raw sounding blues tune, actually didn't sound to bad on the tape.

what i have come to see is that looseness and a willingness to go for it, along with knowledge of the blues scale in a few keys goes a long way toward a decent sounding tune.

anyway, i had fun playing it, so thought i'd share with my fellow blues players.

peace,
ira