Bach vs Bluegrass

[John Zimm]

Hi all,

I thought I would take up some of your time rambling about what I have been playing on the mandolin lately.

I started playing the mandolin with the intention of learning bluegrass and learning how to jam with other players. That is all fine and good, but it turns out I hardly ever play with other people, and trying to solo without other instruments is a little boring. So, I have been addicted to Bach lately. It is so satisfying just sitting down with the mandolin and picking out Bach tunes as best as I can get them. I am still working on the Courant which we discussed in another thread, and the prelude from the same suite. I've also begun to tackle the ubiquitious (at least in the classical guitar world) Fugue BWV 1001.

In a way I feel like Al Pachino in the last Godfather movie when he lamented how he tried to get away from the mob but they kept pulling him back in. After playing the classical guitar for a decade I took up the mandolin to try and play a different kind of music, but I can't seem to pull myself away from classical music. There must be a support group out there for fellas like me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Thanks for listening to me ramble...

-John.

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, John... IS there a support group or what? Well, I don't know that the following qualifies as support; it IS, at least, commiseration. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Imagine a certain character who, after picking and plucking anything and everything that could be picked and plucked since age 4, decides to make classical music his career— on a bowed string instrument.

Years and years go by. Said character works the saltmines, as per above life-choice, while also mandolinning on the side, in the folkie vein. The intention, of course: to get AWAY from the classics for a change of pace, atmosphere, etc.

Enter Mandolin Café, the classically inclined mando-pickers, the fascination... the rest is history.

Yes: My name is Victor and I AM a classical picker by regression.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[bjc]

Allow me to chime in...I didn't start playing classical music until college.. I played classical guitar for about 6 years, before graduating and returning to my roots...Rock guitar...I picked up mandolin a year or so ago and starting working on bluegrass tunes, but not being particularly versed in the genre and the fact that pickin' parties left me on the side line I ended up returning to some of the same Bach pieces I played on guitar...funny how I graduated college and said "from now on it's strictly rock/metal guitar" and now I'm back to classics...the more hings change...

[Bob A]

This is the support group for the lost and wandering, no doubt about it.

Oh, sure, some of us know what we want, but this is where we find out what we need.

I've been woodshedding for three or four decades, finally got tired of digging around inside for what might want to come out, and started stealing licks from the very best. After all, folks with more talent than I'll ever have have spent the last several centuries writing down the best stuff they could come up with; it would be ungrateful of me not to grab it.

I'll continue snatching up stuff by ear, but there's a lot to be learned just from playing a bit of Bach. I find it has been a more than worthwhile endeavour, even figuring in the cost of too many bowlbacks, and a pile of printed music.

I wish I'd have taken up a bowed instrument in past, and I know that three or four years would be enough to become a decent player, but that would cut into my mandolin time to an unacceptable degree. And there's the danger of VAS.

[vkioulaphides]

Ah, VAS; a most ruinous affliction. Unless, of course, you are the acquire-to-sell type, in which case it may turn out quite lucrative. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Jim Garber]

My background was everything but classical. I played piano early on then switched to guitar when the Beatles were ascendant. After my rock period in high school, I switched to various folks styles: country blues, ragtime, etc. I discovered the fiddle and mandolin right after college but played what was available and what folks I knew played, mostly Irish and southern and northern American dance music (old time and contra).

I played classical (loose term for what went on there) in the New York Mandolin Orchestra for a number of years on both mandolin and mandola. My reading improved somewhat but it was not until the last few years inspired by Carlo Aonzo and Richard Walz (among others) that I started being more interested in classical repertoire. Like Bob A I also accumulated large stacks of bowlbacks and sheet music which spurred me on to greater heights of attempts at playing this stuff.

This area of the board is the place to be inspired to the music and the instrument. Each day I look fwd to whatever nuggets of wisdom appear from the participants herein, whether it be about technique, source material, instrument history or design, or seemingly countless other topics.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Ah, VAS; a most ruinous affliction. Unless, of course, you are the acquire-to-sell type, in which case it may turn out quite lucrative. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
For some odd reason, I have not been afflicted as much with VAS as with MAS. I am not sure why since there was many a time that I played as much violin/fiddle as mandolin.

Jim

[Jack Roberts]

I never wanted to play bluegrass. I didn't really like or understand the genre. But when I was invited to sit in with a gospel-grass group, I loved it, and I jam every week and perform (not well, but I'm up there) once a month at least.

Still, Bach is what gets my pick a-pickin'. Buckley mentioned the Courante and the Prelude, and they are both worth the effort I put into learning them. Be sure to play the Allemande as well! Also, try the Gavottes from the sixth cello suite! I joy to play, and people in the music store will stop whatever they are doing to listen to them.
Jack

[bratsche]

(Buckley, April 21 2004, 09:35): So, I have been addicted to Bach lately. It is so satisfying just sitting down with the mandolin and picking out Bach tunes as best as I can get them.

But that's what mandokin were made for, no?

Seriously, that's why I first got interested. I spent many an odd moment during breaks on myriads of jobs, plucking Bach suite/sonata/partita licks on my viokin instruments over the years... it always made me wonder, and wish I could find out, how they sounded on a "real" plucked instrument. Guitar was out of the question for me (completely different fingerings), so when I heard tell of the existence of a mandola, I knew I had to have one, in order to fulfill my "dark desires". ;-)

bratsche

[Jeff_Stallard]

For some odd reason, I have not been afflicted as much with VAS as with MAS. I am not sure why since there was many a time that I played as much violin/fiddle as mandolin.

Jim
I wonder if it's because violin design is so standardized, whereas mandolins are all quite different. When I played the violin, the idea of owning more than one never entered my mind, but with the mandolin, I own an a-style, a flatback, a bowlback, and a portugese, and they all have their own, unique characteristics, tone being only one of them.

[John Zimm]

I have really enjoy all of your replies. I am glad to know that I am in like company here.

It is funny the things I have learned about bluegrass by playing Bach. I learned to crosspick by playing the Prelude from the 1st Cello Suite. What would Bach say?

I love the Gavottes from the 6th Cello Suite. In fact, the second gavotte is usually the first piece I play when I get home from work and immediately pick up the mandolin.

Speaking of Bach, have you all heard Chris Thile (http://www.spiralseisiun.com/erik/christhile-bachpartita.mp3)playing this Bach prelude? It was posted in another part of the forum, and all I have to say is dang, that kid is something. It is great to see a young mandolin player tackling Bach so well.

-John.

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, Jeff is right on: The diversity of mandolin-types does in fact promote MAS http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Not to mention that quality, vintage violins leap to the six-(and SEVEN—)digit prices in no time (and in blithe indifference to the actual earnings of those who play them). How many morgages can one bear? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[margora]

The Thile performance of the Bach is outstanding. He has excellent articulation, accuracy, and control, especially of rhythm. The ornament at the very end doesn't quite work, but that, in my opinion, is a general problem on the mandolin (as opposed to violin or a cross-string ornament on guitar, which is how I play it). It would be interesting to hear him play the entire suite.

[WJF]

Since you mentioned CT playing the Bach prelude I thought I'd mention as an FYI that there is a bootleg two CD set of Edger Myer, Bela Fleck, Mike Marshall & Chris Thile playing an all Bach program at one of the festivals (Teluride?, Merlefest? escapes me at the moment). It's floating around the internet and if you look hard enough you should be able to find it.

Anyway ... I've listened to this a few times and have no words to describe just how amazing these guys at making Bach come alive on their instruments. What a joy to listen to!!

[mando bandage]

Since you mentioned CT playing the Bach prelude I thought I'd mention as an FYI that there is a bootleg two CD set of Edger Myer, Bela Fleck, Mike Marshall & Chris Thile playing an all Bach program at one of the festivals (Teluride

Sounds like Sunday morning at Telluride last year

R

[Arto]

What Bach prelude is the one Thile is playing in the link above?
thanks, Arto

[Jim Garber]

What Bach prelude is the one Thile is playing in the link above?
thanks, Arto
Sonata VI (E major) from the Six Sonatas for Unaccompanied Violin.

Jim

[Arto]

Thanks, Jim!

[billkilpatrick]

interesting thread and an interesting idea. #i mostly play along with the cd these days as well and while i've stuck pretty much to the medieval/renaissance repertoire in the past, bach seems like a logical step.

"bluegrass and bach" is similar to an idea i tried to introduce over on the lute list but got absolutely no where with it. #(...tough bunch over there.) #basically, it's this: #i read somewhere that during the middle ages music meant more or less the same thing to everyone but that during the renaissance it gradually became the domain of town's people and "country" music (rural music per sé, not "nashville") ceased to have any relevance. #as i can't imagine a country faire or harvest festival without it, i wonder what sort of music rural musicians in the baroque period were playing? #i doubt if #they were literate or even aware of notation. #where did they get their tunes? #the church must have been a source (i'm sure it worked both ways as well) but not for music to dance to.

my favorite "unofficial" baroque composer these days (for pavanes, estampies, salterellos, etc.) is "anon. -15th cent."

as for me playing my charango along with bach...i hope both he and glen gould continue to rest in peace...

- bill

[Eugene]

my favorite "unofficial" baroque composer these days (for pavanes, estampies, salterellos, etc.) is "anon. -15th cent."
Sorry, Bill. Looks like you're going to have to find a new favorite baroque composer. "Anon. -15th cent." is solidly early renaissance. Have you tried "anon. -17th cent?"

[billkilpatrick]

guy walks into a doctor's office with a leg complaint.

"it makes noises," he says "if you put your ear to my thigh, you'll hear it!"

the doctor cautiously places his ear to the man's thigh and hears something that sounds like, "bach...bach!"

"amazing!" exclaims the doctor.

"that's nothing," replies the guy "listen to my knee."

the doctor put his ear to the man's knee and hears, "vivaldi....vivaldi!"

"incredible!" gasps the doctor.

"there's more," says the guy "try my ankle."

the doctor does as the man says and hears his ankle say "boccherini...boccherini!"

"that's outrageous!" cries the doctor "your leg is baroque in three places!"

[John Zimm]

That's a good one Bill. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

So, my Bach obsession progresses. I have finally, after many months of work, committed to memory the Prelude from the 1st cello suite. Needless to say, I am pretty excited about it. Once I have it down pretty well I will move on to more Bach. Maybe one day I'll be able to play well enough to learn that piece Thile is playing.

-John.

[billkilpatrick]

dear john -

check this out:

http://www.synthonia.com/IAPS/

ciao - bill

[John Zimm]

Bill,

Wow, there is a group for everybody. I bet that would be interesting to hear. My stepfather was a fine whistler who could mimic many different birds as well as the steel guitar. I wish I had that on tape now.

-John.

[withak]

Speaking of Bach, have you all heard Chris Thile (http://www.spiralseisiun.com/erik/christhile-bachpartita.mp3)playing this Bach prelude? It was posted in another part of the forum, and all I have to say is dang, that kid is something. It is great to see a young mandolin player tackling Bach so well.
That looks familiar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Here's (~3.5 MB) (http://www.spiralseisiun.com/erik/christhile-bachthing2.mp3) the other classical piece he played on that recording. I put Bach in the file name but I don't think he actually says what the tune is, I just assumed it was Bach. It's from a recording from a Mark O'Connor fiddle camp jam with Chris Thile and John Hartford. You can download the whole thing from from bluegrassbox.com, it's listed as "hartford-thile2000". These are the only two classical pieces, the rest are old timey, bluegrass, jazz, and celtic tunes.

-Erik

[Jack Roberts]

#I have finally, after many months of work, committed to memory the Prelude from the 1st cello suite. #
Buckley: #

I have just started the prelude to the second suite. #I can't get enough Bach. If you want the .tef file (it has both notation and tab as well as a midi) let me know. I acutally have the .tef files for the entire first suite.

Jack

[John Zimm]

Thanks for the link Erik. That was awesome. I didn't recognize the piece he was playing but I am sure someone here will.

-John.

[John Zimm]

I have just started the prelude to the second suite. #I can't get enough Bach. #If you want the .tef file (it has both notation and tab as well as a midi) let me know. #I acutally have the .tef files for the entire first suite.
Thanks Jack. #I printed off the suite from the Icking Music Archive. I read standard notation pretty well so that copy is working fine. #

Have fun working on the Prelude. #I love playing it. #I had some trouble memorizing parts of it in the middle of the piece, but after much work I finally got them down. #I am sure you'll love it when you've got it committed to memory. #Bach rules. #Maybe that will be the title of a future Ricky Skaggs album. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

**Update**
I just noticed that you wrote the second suite. I was thinking of the first suite. I've got that in PDF form from the Icking Music Archive. I haven't tried anything from that piece yet. I'll check it out tonight.


-John.