Banjo-less Bluegrass

[MDW]

Let me start by saying I don't have anything against banjo. Our band recently lost our banjo player, then we got another but that didn't work out because of other playing commitments he had. So now, with most of the good banjo players in the area already in other bands, we're seriously considering going the non-banjo route ala Tony Rice's Manzanita CD. I'm looking to find more bluegrass stuff like this to get ideas from. I've got the Skip Gorman-Richard Starkey "Feast Here Tonight" and "Late Last Night" which are in a similar configuration but a bit more traditional. Any other listening suggestions for bluegrass bands (or even roots/americana bands) that don't include a banjo would be appreciated.

[Willie Poole]

In my opinion....You can call any kind of music what you want but if it ain`t got a banjo, it ain`t bluegrass and just because it has a banjo don`t make it bluegrass...If you play without a banjer call it something else ...PLEASE...

[kyblue]

I think I'm with Willie.

Paula

[dang]

Does that mean the Bill Monroe/Doc Watson stuff was not bluegrass?

[wah]

What about the Good Old Persons? John Reischman, Laurie Lewis, Sally Van Meter, Todd Phillips, Kathy Kallick, lotsa good stuff there - no banjo.

Wayne

[Tom C]

I think I'm with Paula.

You can play bluegrass tunes without banjo and call it what you want.
Bill Monroe/Doc Watson stuff is bluegrass tunes done as a duet.

[Jason Kessler]

Uh oh. The Bluegrass Police have been summoned to the scene.

Make Music. Definitions are for dictionaries; labels are for soup cans.

Don't worry. Be happy. Make Music.

[fatt-dad]

Does MandoMan play with a ban(0?

f-d

[Garrett]

I don't think its the bluegrass police. There have been many, many threads on this over the years and one of the most reasonable ways of defining bluegrass is in terms of the rhythmic interplay between rolling banjo, mandolin chop, guitar and bass. I think that might be a bit strict, there's a feel that bluegrass has that's not just instruments but more the rhythm -- you know it when you hear it! That aside I don't really think that Doc and Bill is bluegrass, its modeled on the pre-bluegrass Charlie and Bill Monroe duets. Its great, a lot better than most official bluegrass.

[MDW]

Ya know, my question wasn't whether anybody liked bluegrass music without banjo, or even whether you thought it was still bluegrass. All I wanted was a little input about bands that don't have a banjo. As I said, I like banjo and I like bluegrass with banjo but right now I was hoping for information, not opinions.

[Jim Gallaher]

I suggest these two CD's from Auldridge-Bennett-Gaudreau. They're no longer together, but I enjoyed their Dobro-Guitar-Mandolin approach while it lasted.

- ABG - "This Old Town" (http://www.countysales.com/php-bin/ecomm4/products.php?category_id=&product_id=2440&prev_id=3936&next_id=2671)
- ABG - "Blue Lonesome Wind" (http://www.countysales.com/php-bin/ecomm4/products.php?category_id=&product_id=2671&prev_id=2440&next_id=3127)

[John Flynn]

Does MandoMan play with a ban(0?
Naah, Mandolin Man don't need no stinkin' banjo! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I have heard Bill Monroe tracks with no banjo and they sounded bluegrass to me. I even heard one track with a piano in the background, another track with an accordian and still another with an electric guitar! It sounds like the BG police would have had to bust 'Ol Bill.

[fredfrank]

My wife and I recorded a CD recently where I played the banjo, mandolin and some lead guitar. I had another fellow playing dobro and also a fiddler and bass player. On some of the cuts, I liked what everyone else was doing so well, I just didn't put a banjo break into the song. On some of the tunes, I didn't even have a banjo in the background.

As I listen to this project, I don't even notice the banjo coming and going, as some of these tunes just didn't need banjo. I'd sure hate to play in a band that didn't even have a banjo on anything, though. Seems like that could get as monotonous as having too much banjo.

As to what kind of music we recorded, I like to call it "Bluegrass Lite".

[allenhopkins]

Non-banjo bluegrass (or proto-bluegrass):
Bill Monroe pre-1945 (Victor or Columbia re-issues)
Some of Buck White's stuff with his daughters (Down Home Folks)
Some of the "brother duet" material (Monroe Brothers, Blue Sky Boys,etc.) -- good for vocal harmonies and repertoire

What you label music is your business; I'd guess that a banjo-less band would have to develop a repertoire that only partly overlapped what others call "bluegrass." Probably wouldn't play "Foggy Mountain Breakdown," which could be a good thing.. On the other hand, look at all the fiddle-less bands that play fiddle tunes. Do what seems good to you.

[Peter Hackman]

Does MandoMan play with a ban(0?
Naah, Mandolin Man don't need no stinkin' banjo! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I have heard Bill Monroe tracks with no banjo and they sounded bluegrass to me. I even heard one track with a piano in the background, another track with an accordian and still another with an electric guitar! It sounds like the BG police would have had to bust 'Ol Bill.
Of course, this is really irrelevant to the present topic, but ...:
Monroe used an accordian on his early Columbia records
(the player was married to his fiddler)
before the advent of Flatt and Scruggs more or less established
the BG concept (there's more to say about that, but
Smith already does in his bio, on the development of the early to mid 50's).


The two sessions with electric guitar and drums were
definitely the producer's
idea, and it simply didn't work out, artistically or commercially.
Much has been said about that, in Rosenberg's disco and Smith's bio.
The piano and vibes on a couple of cuts may have had Monroe's approval,
for some special effect.

More to the point is that there is no audible banjo on the 1954
recording of Blue Moon of Kentucky, yet that recording has
what really counts, the beat and the fiddle(s).

Returning tot he topic, the basic artistic decision would be whether to
replace the banjo with something else, e.g., a lead guitar or a dobro,
or to widen and liberate the roles of
the remaining instruments. In the latter case I would move the guitar
up a bit and give it a more active role, with connecting mid-range
runs, etc.

Many of Reno and Smiley's recordings for King feature a lead
guitar in place of a banjo, that might be a source of inspiration.

If I were to lead a BG-derived project I would throw the banjo out
and add a lead guitar noodling and chording with irregular accents
in high positions.

[Christopher Howard-Williams]

MDW, that is exactly what happened to us. Here in France, good banjo players are not that easy to find and we lost two, both American who went home (which Oscar Wilde may call "careless"). So we regrouped and formed a new band with another mandolin player and I play either mandolin or rhythm guitar depending on the song. We used to call ourselves Moonshine Bluegrass Band, now we just call ourselves Moonshine. I find it is more challenging to play without a #banjo as you can no longer rely on the dynamics of that instrument to get you through a gig - everything has to be tight and in shape. On the other hand, we find we have more freedom in song selection and interpretation.
I'm somewhat with Willie in that I hesitate to say we play Bluegrass but I do not know what else to call our music (we play Walls of Time, Kentucky Waltz among others) and we play the Bluegrass circuits.
More and more bands are doing this so it's possible and, in some cases like ours, unavoidable. Have fun !
Here is our website if you want to take a look...
Moonshine (http://web.mac.com/christopherhw/iWeb/Moonshine/Moonshine.html)

[mrbook]

Just because the music sounds good, or you like it, doesn't make it bluegrass; many people mentioned here are great, but not not bluegrass - I know Doc Watson will tell you so, and probably many others, too. Without getting into definitions, and with apologies to the founder of the style, I have to say that I can listen more to bluegrass without a mandolin than to "bluegrass" with a banjo. The one exception I allow is Tony Rice's "Manzanita," which took several listens before I realized there was no banjo. The drive is there in the music, just like the best bluegrass. Reno & Smiley played a lot of music that was more country than bluegrass, and there is nothing wrong with that.

It doesn't mean you can't play the same songs. Our band didn't have a banjo player until I took it up and divided my time between banjo and mandolin. We play for different types of audiences; to play bluegrass shows and festivals we needed a banjo to show the diehards we were serious, and I wanted to show the audience we could play the music they wanted as well as any other local band. We also play many shows for country music audiences, who don't always like the banjo (turns the music into bluegrass), so the banjo may stay home while I play mandolin. A lot of the same songs, but the sound is a bit diffferent in each case. I like it both ways.

What to call it? We can play a night of bluegrass, or a night of acoustic country music, or a little of both. I don't like labels like "Roots Music" or "Americana," but if I'm not targeting a specific audience I generally call it "American Acoustic Music."

Banjo players, especially ones with tolerable personalities, are not always easy to find. I would never walk out on a bluegrass band without a banjo player. Just play and have a good time.



www.rare-books.com/stringdusters.htm

[jmcgann]

A mediocre bluegrass band with a banjo must be better than a great bluegrass band without one...oops, I forgot, it's not bluegrass without a banjo http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

There's only two kinds of music.

[groveland]

There's only two kinds of music.

And that would be... (a) Bluegrass and (b) everything else?

[jmcgann]

Nah, the Duke Ellington quote that there are only two kinds of music: good and bad.

[Clyde Clevenger]

Ken Cartwright and I often put our banjo player on guitar and play mandolin duets, and we still call it Bluegrass. So far, no one has asked for thier money back.

[Scotti Adams]

Take a listen to T. Rices Manzanita....no banjo....its still 'grass.

[jmcgann]

yep, if that album (minus the title track) ain't bluegrass, grits ain't groceries.

[kyblue]

Grits ain't groceries in my house...

Paula

[jmcgann]

my cat could have kittens in the oven, that don't make 'em muffins. I'd still rather eat in MY kitchen though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[glauber]

There's only two kinds of music.

And that would be... (a) Bluegrass and (b) everything else?
No, Country and Western.

[Jason Kessler]

Now, folks: poor ol' MDW DID initiate this thread looking for suggestions of recordings without banjo on them. Aside from "Manzanita," it looks like we've left him empty-handed. Perhaps someone here with more expertise than I can recommend some banjo-less "bluegrass-style" albums for him. My own library has come up, somewhat disconcertingly, lacking.

[Tim]

Chesapeake was a band that only put out three CDs, featured several former Seldom Scene members and had no banjo. #Their first "Rising Tide" was the best in my opinion. # The band members have a strong bluegrass history and this band featured a lot of traditional bluegrass songs done in a more blues or folk arrangement.

[mandopete]

Now, folks: #poor ol' MDW DID initiate this thread looking for suggestions of recordings without banjo on them. #
Yeah, I looked at my collection and was pretty hard-pressed to find anything other than the aforementioned recordings.

I have several duet recordings such as Bill Monroe/Doc Watson and Red Allen/Frank Wakefield, but it's difficult to find much that one would call bluegrass without banjo.

Now if you're still interested in playing bluegrass without banjo I might suggest a long listen to Jesse McReynolds!

[mandopete]

Aha! I just thought of a good example. There is a band in Portland, Oregon called Jackstraw (http://www.jackstraw.net) that plays bluegrass without a banjo. Their earlier recordings had banjo, but the last two have been two guitars, mandolin and bass. Their guitar player, Jon Neufield, is pretty fleet-footed and I don't miss the ol' five string at all!

[picksnbits]

Skaggs & Rice

[MDW]

Mandopete,

I love Jackstraw, with or without banjo. I really like The Farrington Sessions, which is probably their least produced CD, just a bunch of guys around a couple mics with no overdubs. I've got their latest, Rubber Wheels, and it just had never sunk into me that there wasn't a banjo anymore. Thanks.

MDW

[mandopete]

Yeah, I dig them too! A couple of years ago when they played Wintergrass I felt they were the closest thing that they (Wintergrass) had to bluegrass band in whole line up. Their last two recordings, Rubber Wheels and Live At The White Eagle have some great bluegrass standards like "Please Baby Come Back Home" and "You Won't Be Satisfied That Way". It seems that without banjo they have gone to a more "traditional" bluegrass mix of material.

[Duc Vu]

Compton and Grier, Climbing the Walls.

[caddy jim]

Good thread ya'll. Back in the thirties and forties, my dad played guitar and mando in various bands here in western North Carolina. The banjo players used the claw hammer stlye, and they called the music "Hillbilly". In the sixties, those of us who played this type of music called it Folk. I guess the difference between these types of music and "bluegrass" is a three finger roll and a first tenor singing through his nose.???

[Ken Waltham]

I think if you did some of the Skaggs and Rice stuff, with bass added, it'd sound really good. It may be a little sleepy to do too much of it, though. #Some "Americana" music, or Fred Eaglesmith stuff, Steve Earle, the tune " Life's Highway", Crystal Gale's " Too Long Time", Gordon Lightfoot material.
In fact, you would have more choices than you could ever get to.
If handled properly, it could be quite liberating.
I like banjo too, but, it comes with a certain " Hee Haw" factor to the uninitiated. They do not realize how long and hard some of these banjo players work to get the craft down, all those blues licks, etc. The audience, if they're not a BG audience, just hears Hee Haw.
When I quit playing BG after 17 years, and started a classic rock band, all this came home to me in spades. Unreal the difference.
Anyway, get the vocals down really good, that's the biggest thing, #add a second guitar, and you will still make fine music that is satisfying to you and the audience. You know what else, classic Country Gentlemen would have a goldmine of tunes, too.
Good luck.
Ken

[an uncalloused fingertip]

If desperate for a banjo player and cannot find one, why not buy one of those banjo-guitars and find a buddy who can play the guitar? It's not a banjo proper, but technically you can still call it a banjo. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Gene

[mrbook]

I dislike the bluegrass police as much as anyone. However, before I started playing banjo in our band (along with mandolin and a little guitar), when people said we played good bluegrass, I usually said, "Thanks, but it's not exactly bluegrass." The hard-core bluegrass people already knew that - they would hire us, but when we got paid I would get comments like, "That's got music, but it's not bluegrass." I would usually reply that we do what we do.

Personally, that banjo popping around in the music is 99% of the bluegrass sound to me. Just my opinion, and the rest may be great (even better than a bad band with a banjo), but I like that banjo in my bluegrass. Much as I like these discussions, though, I would rather just play or listen it than worry about what it is or isn't.

[JMOSS99]

I would like to suggest that it might be that lack
of banjo players who can keep time that might be part
of the current problem. #I remember back in the 1970s
when just about any banjo player found in California
could keep great time. #It was not if they could keep
time, but what style they played. Remember Pat Cloud?
He was great and smart, but way different.
People would go off the hook if they heard chromatic and
not Scruggs, but they never said they could not play in time
or up to speed. # #

The Frank Wakefield Band has not used a banjo in a few
years, of course we have Frank who can play the banjo
parts on the mandolin. #I noticed Frank playing a lot of
60s JD Crowe breaks and decided to drop the banjo from
the band to let Frank come through more. #After all, if
we can't keep time with a banjo in the band and it
affects our prize quarterback, then it needs to go. #

My problem with the banjo players I run into is that
they have not the least idea of what Earl was doing
back then and they don't seem to care. #In fact, I have
been surprised to find that some banjo players cannot
tap their fingers in time for 8 bars. #The banjo is like a
drum. Can you imagine a drummer not being able to
keep time? #Bob Black is a great banjo player and can
play great, but try to find others like him! #Playing with
Frank is like playing with Gene Krupa. Tell a banjo player
that and their eyes gloss over. #You wouldn't even need
to have that conversation in the 1970s. #I even had a banjo
player tell me that "no money was ever made above
the 8th fret"... # Can you imagine? #What kind of
banjo upbringing did this person have? #They never
saw Earl. #The music store teachers seem to be
cranking out hundreds of this type of player. #

I just don't know what to say about what is wrong
with the banjo players these days, but in this band
each of us are like part of a drum kit. # Frank, when
the band is tight, suspends the offbeat and starts playing
a lot of counter rhythms. # #If the musician with the
actual drum head can't keep time, then you need
to make "better" music without them. #Young musicians
often have more excitement than the older ones, but many
lack the ears to hear what they are doing, or so it seems
to me. #We were forced to play as a trio in Sweden, but to
our surprise it was tight and very fluid. #We learned from
that experience and continued touring in this form.

Jim Moss
FWB

[Klaus Wutscher]

Another band that did not use banjo all the time was (is?) the Cache Valley Drifters. If the banjo was not fitting, they often used a second guitar (mostly in Nashville tuning) which produces a very shimmering sound which worked really well with their repertoire.

[AlanN]

Another band that did not use banjo all the time was (is?) the Cache Valley Drifters. If the banjo was not fitting, they often used a second guitar (mostly in Nashville tuning) which produces a very shimmering sound which worked really well with their repertoire.
Now, there was a band. They had their own thing going on, and both guitarists could/would play lead. I thought they were great. From trad. grass to covers of John Prine tunes, they were very, very good. Their mandolin player was very inventive, and they swung.

[Klaus Wutscher]

One of my favourites too. Are they still playing? Last I heard was that Wally Barnick (bass, vocals) joined Bluegrass Etc., but I have not heard from the band for a number of years. Are they still active?

[mandopete]

I don't think The Cache Valley Drifters are around anymore. Darn shame too as they could really sing! Their guitar player, Mike Mullins, is a pretty fine mandolin player too. He used to be in band called The Acousticats that was also banjo-less. The Cats featured the twin fiddling of Phil Salazar and Charl Ann Gastineau.

[Willie Poole]

Pete...Would that be the same Mike Mullins that is kin to "Moon" Mullins, one time country artis and piano player? Somewhere in my travels I picked with him and a group that knew him right well...Willie

[mandopete]

Not sure about that one Willie.

[TonyP]

MDW I would think by the end of all this I think you could say that it's a personal opinion. So do what you like. To say you can have bluegrass without the founding instrument, the mandolin, is just ludicrous to me. But it's been said on this and other threads about this topic. Bluegrass is not defined by one instrument and certainly not the banjo in my opinion. It's an attitude, it's a feeling. It's knowing what the roots of the music are and being in tune with them. Tony Rice knew that feeling and had others who did play with him on Manzanita. That album has been cited several times here with little descension, but it was dissed far and wide when it came out as "hippygrass". Sam Bush was seen as the anti-Monroe, even though he touted Mr. Monroe ceaselessly and cited him as a prime influence. Newgrass was the harbinger of the end of bluegrass as we knew it, and they had a banjo! So if you want to play bluegrass, know where it came from, listen to the masters and everybody in the band do it with that feeling in mind. Another fine example of bluegrass without banjo is "the Kitchen Tapes", Red Allen and Frank Wakefield. Just a "duet", I think not.

[roland]

I suggest The O'Kanes. I just listened to a tape from back when and only one cut had some banjo. Kiernan Kane plays mandolin and Jamie O'Hara plays guitar. Great duet singing. Great all around.

Roland

[Greg H.]

Sure there's Banjo-free bluegrass. . . . .when Earl chose to play guitar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #On topic, some of those old gospel tunes Flatt and Scruggs did would be great ones to include.

[Dan Margolis]

Some early Flatt & Scruggs has Earl on (fantastic) Travis-picked guitar instead of banjo.