What next?

[katje]

Well, I've just returned from a beautiful weekend of camping with some guitar-playing friends...we had some definite fun around the campfire! I had a super time, but went to bed secretly a little discouraged, because I feel like I have plateau-ed in my playing and am not sure where to go from here. First of all, I haven't had much luck finding a teacher...I live in a really small town and the pickings are pretty slim (no pun intended). So I basically am self-taught. I have spent quite a bit of time with Steve Kaufman's Bluegrass Workout, and am in between the slow and the fast versions of his songs. Every time I practice I do some exercises both for finger dexterity and pick control, do some Aonzo scales, and lately have been into Tim O'Brien's arpeggios which I found on the web. I've got those down pretty well. I guess my main question is, now that I am familiar with some scales and arpeggios, and can pretty much pick out a melody (albeit not too speedy), what can I do to spice it up a bit? I feel like when I try to take a break (not so much fiddle tunes, but with singing tunes) it is really boring and just sort of plinkety-plink, a note here and there. It's getting old, and I feel stuck. I try to play with cds that are inspiring, but everyone plays so darned fast! I have a couple of Niles Hokkanen's books, which are incredible, but are sorta over my head. I can work through some exercises, but it doesn't stick.

So there you have it! I don't mean to whine or ramble, I'm just frustrated! I love it so, it's just like my fingers can't bring forth what my brain wants them to...the emotion is lacking. Patience, patience....

And one more question. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to better remember lyrics? This too is getting old...I get so caught up in playing I forget the next verse!
Since my singing is better than my playing I hate to mess that up too! Thanks in advance for any suggestions...this site is the best.

[jim_n_virginia]

I was you a year ago. I felt I had also plateaued out in my mandolin (I play guitar too)journey. I am a singer also so I relied alot on my voice to get me by for a LONG time. I got lazy and played all open chords in first position, in other words I knew 100 songs in G C D.

I finally knew I had to do something. I too could not find a decent teacher in my area. Luckily I found 2 books that helped me out tremendously. Fretboard Roadmap and Fretboard Logic. I studied both intensely. I could only understand about 50% of it on my own.

Then one day I found a Music School I had never heard of. Mostly Classical music but I wanted scales, theory, improvisation and solo playing. SO I joined and took the two books in with me and they patiently taught me most of the book.

I then bought Guitar Tracks and while the recording program was fair it came bundled with a GREAT little program called Slow Blast. It slows down CD's with losing pitch. This program has bee invaluable to me in figuring out songs.

I am once again feeling like I am progressing and not stagnating. In other words you have to just kick it into gear and make something happen. I think studying with someone is invaluable, worth more than studying book by yourself. If you have to you can take lessons online it is the next best thing. A few years ago I was driving an hour to study with a great bluegrass mandolin player.

I am ALWAYS looking for someone to study AND jam with. Which brings me to say hit all the open mic nights you can, find all the jam sessions you can, I have learned more than 20 lessons sometimes by some of the great pickers I meet at them.

Just know that sooner or later if you keep trying you will get over your plateau!

GOOD LUCK

[TonyP.]

You know, what your doing is right on . It just takes time time to sink in, become instinct. Some learn faster, some slower. Please don't let yourself get sucked into the fancy stuff. Just concentrate on the melody, timming, tone, and over time you will be amazed. The folks who want to blaze away(what we call gunslingers) are only facinating to newbies and themselves. Don't let the lure of the "kitchen sink" solos blind you to the music. Music like art is 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. Your going down the same road I went with fiddle tunes, which are great and are still my first love. But they don't prepare you for being able to take a break on songs. It's just a different thing.
1. learn the chord changes
2. learn the melody
3. add embellishments when you have that down.
4. now I hum a melody until I like it and then learn that, which keeps me away from what I call the cut and paste, hot lick crowd.
For me plateaus are a form of boredom and if I'll get out one of the many books I have(which it sounds like you have) laying around and do something new it goes away.
As far as words, sorry, I've always been a melody guy and I still struggle with 'em.:p

[Billy Mack]

I dont sing a lick, so at least I dont have to remember words. What all the others have suggested is right on. Only other thing that has helped me is to jam along with other types of music. Most of the bluegrass music I like is so fast it is difficult for me to improvise with at first. So I like to put on a music radio or TV station and just jam with every song that comes up. Most of them will be slower and in different keys so it has really helped. There is usually plenty of singing and I start by just trying to pick out the melody on the mando. Then I try and mimic the guitar or other instrument licks. Soon your ear, brain, fingers thing will start to come together when combined with all the other practicing you are already doing. You will do just fine.

[Kbone]

Jim'n Virginia has it right - like my friend Rob Coleman told me , just learn some breaks ( slow down with mach etc )of your favorite players , use a book like roadmaps and your on your way - as soon as I get one of those machines that slow down the breaks I'll be starting too.

[John Flynn]

I can't help with the lyrics thing. But on the plateau thing, something that helped me off a many-year plateau was to take a chance and immerse myself in a completely different kind of music than I had been playing. It not only started a new musical passion for me, it improved my playing on the stuff I had been plateaued on also. In my case, I had been plateaued on chruch music, rock and bluegrass. I discovered old-time and got completely absorbed in it for a year. Now I am way above the plateau, with no end in sight. Whatever you are into now, try something else!

[VaFrank]

jim_n_va. What is the location of the music school. I live in the Williamsburg, Va. area and am looking for a music school.

Frank

[Mike Buesseler]

Katje, #I'm going to guess that this thread is just getting started. # I think EVERYone gets to that place you are now--and not just once, but every so often, no matter what level.

It sounds like we are at about the same place. #I could use a good kick over the next plateau edge myself. #

I'm way out in the middle of nowhere (it surprises me how many people here say that....hmm) with no instructors and few players in sight.

I mostly play with my oldest friend, we're a duo. # Trouble is he flakes out on me a lot, and then all my practicing duets seems like a waste of time. # When he comes back into the fold (so to speak), I get a big shot of enthusiasm and energy. #So, maybe the breaks are good.

My point, though, is find someone else to play with. #Personally, I'd say find one, maybe two. #The groups are great, sometimes, but hard to find, can be hard to fit into and you can't very well stop everybody and say, 'let's do that again, slower.'

Here is another idea. #Have you checked the Song Forum here? # We pick a tune for the month and then people record themselves and post it on a website, for all to hear. #It's good incentive to learn a tune you don't know, great for the ego (or humility #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).
Also, it's neat to hear other folks struggling just like you. #You get great encouragement, no matter what you post, and it's not phony. #People love to hear someone put #his/her heart and soul into a simple tune, slow, or not.

So, not much help from me, just encouragement. #Who can get too much of that? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Brian Ray]

Congratulations! Getting sick of your own playing is a sure sign that you are improving. It will happen time and time again, trust me. While all of the suggestions above are fine and there's usually no "one way" to get out of the musical funk you're in, the most important (at least to me) thing you can do is to start listening.

Practicing your rudiments is good and you should do it but in your case, it sounds like you lack inspiration, not technical ability. Get a few new CDs. Doesn't have to be Bluegrass or mandolin specifically but that may also help. Shake it up a bit... if you're upset because you can't play as fast as Thile, perhaps you should really be more concerned with why you can't play as slow as Miles...

Sometimes putting down the instrument is the best thing for improvement... "She that is busy picking, may not busy listening". Make time for listening to music; your playing will thank you.

Also, relax. It will pass.

[Michael H Geimer]

" ... now that I am familiar with some scales and arpeggios, and can pretty much pick out a melody (albeit not too speedy), what can I do to spice it up a bit?"

Hmmmm .... May I suggest you have all the ingredients you need. Though honestly, I do consider myself stuck right on that same plateau. My personal efforts are going into ear training, as a method of picking out and imitating melody lines on the fly. I'll ask myself (as a singer), "Does this melody start on the root, the fifth, or the third?" Then I'll start my break on the that same interval, and hang on from there as best I can ... hoping to suss out out the melody, and maybe even landing on my feet once in a great while.

I do spemd some time learning runs and licks, but mostly I try to focus my efforts of learning melody lines, and interesting phrases. Hmmm, maybe phrasing might be that 'extra spice' you're looking for? Often, you can give new life to a same-old same-old run, just by turning it around against the beat.

As far as lyrics go ... [shrug] ... I'm always saying to the guys, "Hold up here for while.", and we'll all just vamp on the tonic until I can remember the next verse. LOL! But, I do find it's only the first line of each verse that really needs to be rememebred, the rest seem to follow naturally if I can just get that first line out of my mouth.

Lastly, I would say if you just got back from camping and picking, then you're out there livin' the dream so hush up! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif See, I have friends who camp ... and friends who pick ... but never the twain do meet ... at least not until Strawberrry!!!!!!!!!!!!

[katje]

Hey, it's true...I try to give thanks every day cause I really am living the dream! Life is very good. The meeting of friends and campfires is fairly new, but we all agree it's the best! And you know, the non-musicians hanging around the fire seem to appreciate it too...especially as the night progresses and their beverages flow.

Thanks so much for everyone's feedback and encouragement. It's true...you can't have too much of either of those!

Benignus, you wrote "I'll start my break on that same interval, and hang on from there as best I can"...I don't really even understand what that means. If a song is in G, and you realize the melody starts on the third, so that would be B, where do you go from there? And if a song is in G, it doesn't really mean you can just use the notes from the G scale, right? You need to pay attention to the chord changes and bring in the different notes from different scales and arpeggios at that time...right? Pardon my ignorance!

This theory stuff twists my brain up and I've only barely started! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And then you wrote: "maybe phrasing might be that 'extra spice' you're looking for?" I'm not sure what phrasing is, is it just the order that you play notes in? I've been thinking about that with these arpeggios, it's time to break them up into different pieces rather than just how I learned them.

Well, thanks again...I'm going to explore some of these options. And practice, practice, praaaacccttttiiiccceeeee

[Amanda Lynn]

It sounds like you might be thinking too much, instead of learning how to listen. When I was a kid I took classical violin lessons, but never really enjoyed the instrument. One day I picked up a mandolin, and since I was familiar with the fingering (and having frets was a great change, but I still needed to keep it in tune!),I just started to play the mandolin, and haven't stopped yet. When I get "in the zone" after a short warm-up period, it seems as if there is a direct connection from my ears to my fingers; I just think a melody, and my hands play it, seemingly bypassing my brain. I stay out of my own way, so to speak. People tell me it sounds good. Of course, I did learn the theory for violin a long time ago, but I think you can learn to feel when a half step or a whole step is needed, just by listening a LOT to good CDs and players who don't play too many wrong notes. I play melodies and harmony, not chords, and prefer slower "old-timey" music, country, folk, and acoustic blues. You might try listening to slower music that you like, in which there's a place for mandolin tremolo and harmony. Have you ever heard the mandolin break on "Ripple" on the Grateful Dead's "American Beauty" CD?

[jim_n_virginia]

jim_n_va. #What is the location of the music school. I live in the Williamsburg, Va. area and am looking for a music school.

Frank
Frank I studied 3 semesters at the Academy of Music on Colonial Avenue in Ghent section of Norfolk. They don't have a mandolin teacher but I studied guitar and the teacher had a masters degree in music and could help me in guitar and mandolin. Mostly went went over my books and he explained a lot of stuff I was stuck on.

ONE drawback though..... this place is all Classical Music and thats why I didn't stay. My teacher didn't know anything about playing he just knew the science of music, ie; THEORY. For this reason I probably wouldn't recommend this place for anyone (unless you want to learn Classical of course) unless there absolutely wasn't anybody else to study with because I think it is important that you study with someone who has similar tastes or is at least familiar with the kind of music you want to play.

Shoot my high falutin college trained teacher didn't even know who Bill Monroe WAS! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Frank like I said I am ALWAYS lookin for teachers and if I lived over on your side of the water I would check this guy out. I have heard great things about him and his wife.

http://www.billandpamgurley.com/index.html

And while I am on the subject of teachers, I wish Winchester VA was closer to me because I would LOVE to study with Niles Hokanen for a while, heck I might MOVE up there and sleep in my car to study with Niles!

[Michael H Geimer]

Katje,
I think you got what I was saying, as your comments are right on track. It's OK if you don't know the theory behind it all ... as music theory is really just a way of explaining what our ears already *know*.

" ... if a song is in G, it doesn't really mean you can just use the notes from the G scale, right? "

Actaully it *does* mean just that, but some notes of the scales will sound better than others. Concentrate on just landing the LAST note of your phrase on a chord tone ... that way, it will always sound like you knew where you were headed. Fake it 'till you make it, right?

The rest of the time, let your fingers walk familiar terrain by cruising around the key scale, or hopping around with arpeggios, or a the key's pentatonic scales. This is the basic principle of 'noodling around'.

You also asked about phrasing. Well, phrases in music are the same as in speach. They help define your statements through intentional pauses. The common advice is that one should approach a musical phrase the same way one would approach a vocal phrase ... it should be NO LONGER than your breath would allow you to sing. Indeed vocalization is the broader term used to describe this method.

So to round it all out. Pick a chord tone where you want to start a phrase. Pick a final note to land on. Then just make up most everything in between ... but listen to yourself, as the final goal is to control those inbetween areas using your ear, and your sense of melody.

Think of this as the 'choose your battles' approach to improv. Eventually you want your ear to guide you the way Amanda Lynn describes ... get 'In the Zone' ... that's when you'll start to hear what you want first, then your fingers will go out and play it for you ... it does happen.

I've been making good progess lately with my impov playing by learning mostly vocal melodies, rather than licks. What I've found is that most vocal lines are simply the chord tones and arpeggios with just a few other scales notes thrown in as passing tones that take the melody from chord (a) to chrod (b).

That's what I meant when I said you had all the raw ingredients.

Best of luck,
- Benig

[VaFrank]

Jim_n_Va., Thanks for the insight. Re: Bill Gurly. I know Bill and see him about once every 2 months. Problem is he already has more student than he wants. So, I'm on his waiting list.

I attended the most recent camp that Niles taught(2-3 weeks ago)in Front Royal, Va. Lot's of useful information and he's a hoot. Nice guy.

Frank

[tiltman]

Great advice above, my .02.

I think it was Bobby Osbourne who explained how he takes a break as - playing the melody with a some extra notes thrown in. Words to live by. Never stray too far from the melody. He/or she who plays the most notes does not win!

Above someone mentioned trying a different style of music. You may even try just listening to a different style of music. I picked up a couple of cd's of Delta Blues music (Robert Johnson, Big Bill Broonzy, Memphis Slim, etc.) My next goal is to try and incorporate more blues notes into my breaks.

Good luck.

[chipotle]

Amanda, I am not a deadhead, but I really like "Ripple", the lyrics are tremendous and yes, I love the manolin break. Great tune!

Of course I really am a big fan of the Garcia/Grissman duets. Ah, to make it sound so easy......:)