How to buy a playable bowlback

[Hubert Angaiak]

I think I'm interested in getting a bowlback so I'd have one so my other two flatbacks will know where they orignated from. I want a playable one. What do you look for aside from all the decoration? What is considered to be a good sounding bowlback mandolin? I have heard some old recordings and they always sound treblely or bright, but is that due to the recording technology at that time. I would like some serious replies so I can make an educated decision. I would rather have a very plain jane that sounds wonderful rather than a elaborate wall hanger. Thank you.

[Jim Garber]

I guess the first question is what level of player are you and what would you settle for. Also, what type(s) of music will you play on it. Not knowing any of that, in terms of vintage American instruments you could do very well with either Vega, Martin or Washburn (American Conservatory is the "budget brand") mandolins. In the European department there are some pricey Iitalian names like Vinaccia, Calace and Embergher.

If you re in Europe you make have more access to quality bowlbacks to try out in various music stores. here in the US most music stores look down on them and they are often in bad playing shape.

Jim

[Jack Roberts]

Jim, I walked into an antique shop in Tokyo, and the guy trotted out three different bowl backs, none playable, but they could probably be made playable with some new strings and some time.

The Japanese had their own mandolin boom many years ago, and there seems to be another one starting up now.

Jack

[Bob DeVellis]

Although some of the brightness on old recordings is the recording process of the day, bowlbacks, are in fact brighter sounding than most of what's around today. Be careful not to buy one from a source that doesn't know anything about them. You're not likely to get something playable. A playable vintage bowlback is almost certainly one that has had fairly recent work done to restore it to playable condition. The common problems are neck resets, rib separations, and top cracks. A bad neck angle is perhaps the least obvious from a series of posted pictures but is probably the common problem most likely to make an instrument unplayable. You want not only a neck that is straight but one that is set at the proper angle.

John Bernunzio (www.bernunzio.com) usually has some bowlbacks on hand and he'll be able to tell you how playable they are or aren't. The best source is someone from right here on the board, if anyone happens to have an instrument they're ready to part with. They'd give you the most accurate assessment of what, if anything, it would need to have done and what that might cost.

I've seen Ebay listings describing rib separations as something a do-it-yourselfer should have no problem correcting. Hah! If you don't mind a cobbled-up slap-dash repair, maybe. Doing it right is not trivial. As Jim Garber pointed out, it's still possible to find nice, relatively simple, Martins and Vegas (either in playable condition or close enough to be made playable for $100 to $200) for a quite resonable price (obviously, more for the playable than the near-playable). But it's also very easy to pay too much for something that would cost more than it's worth to have put right, if you're not careful. So, as I'm sure you already know, don't go bidding on some Ebay "treasure" without lots of information and guidance. Better yet, don't use Ebay as a source for this particular type of purchase. Too much can be wrong with an instrument that won't be apparent and that even a very honest seller won't be able to assess and tell you about. My 2 cents.

[Hubert Angaiak]

Jim, I consider myself as an intermediate player. I probably will use it to play some clasical type music and as something as a change from my other mandolins. I'm trying to gauge as to what tone do you look for. I see the heavily inlaid mandos sell higher than the plain ones and I wonder what you are paying for... I assume the name, craftsmanship and along with that I assume the tone will be there. If you have 5 bowlbacks to choose from and this is a mixture of works of art and utility pieces how would you choose one... and say they are all free but you have to take one. Sorry for asking these questions but I'm pretty ignorant about these things. Thank you.
Hubert

[Jim Garber]

The Japanese had their own mandolin boom many years ago, and there seems to be another one starting up now.
The Japanese had a boom way back at the turn of the last century. I believe that Raphael Calace and Samuel Adelstein travelled and performed way back when -- even before the they played Bluegrass.

I don't think that their love for the classical mandolin has wavered since then.

Jim

[Bob A]

Welcome, Hubert. Your concerns about ornamented instruments should be met with a firm yet vague reply. Many highly-ornamented bowlbacks are what you might refer to as "pigs with lipstick". They are basically wallhanger trash. Then again, many are not. You can assume that the top Italian makers, Vinaccia, Calace, Embergher, Ceccherini, Cerrone, Pecoraro, more or less knew what they were doing, and would not like to let a piece of junk leave the shop with thier names attached. Many others are just tourist traps.

Plain mandos are equally confusing. Something as plain as a low-end Martin, yet made by a no-name, might be a decent instrument; but as has been mentioned, old bowlbacks always require restoration to be playable, and this is not easy to find, and not cheap.

I see you live in Alaska, a place not known for comfort and constant moderate humidity. Bowlbacks are more lightly built than contemporary instruments, and would tend, I suspect, to need a bit more care in their keeping: reasonably constant comfortable temperature, and relative humidity between 40-50%. (Though any instrument woul;d benefit from these ideal conditions).

As a person who has acquired some 9 bowlbacks in the past couple years, of varying price and quality, I'd say it can be done, but it will take time. I looked for my first bowlback for 5-6 months before I dared to bid on ebay, and got a decent Vega for about $500 all told. I've subsequently pirchasedfour more thru ebay. Every one had issues; every one had to visit the luthier; two still reside with him, one for about 18 months now.

I bought three thru the cafe. One needs restoration still; one had some repairs and is just fine; one was bought new for me in Greece, and came in perfect shape. It is the only new bowlback I have, and it is a worthy instrument. It ran about $500 with a nice hard case, and shipping from NYC to me.

I think you should consider that option. Thje Greek mandolin is a quality piece, and is much more robust in construction than the old instruments, and should survive harsh conditions with aplomb. Failing that, expect some delays, or else expect to pay for someone else's time and trouble in getting an older instrument repaired and set up.

I'd budget about $500 for a worthwhile instrument, and expect that ot would be in playable condition in a case. Of course, you don't have to limit yourself: you can take a ride on the ebay rollercoaster, and maybe score a winner for half that amount, or you could opt for a high-end instrument if you like. My experience indicates that a decently ornamented concert-class instrument can be had for 1500-3000, if you want to go that way; of course, you can get good sound and playability for much less.

A third route would be to consider the Lyon & Healy carved-top instruments. They can be had in the classical 13" scale, and also in the GIbson-standard 14" scale, and the sound is similar to a bowlback, with a richer bass, and perhjaps not so sparkling treble. They are all worthwhile and lovely mandolins, but are not cheap. You may luck out and find one for 1200 or so, but they range higher usually. The advantage is that if you're used to Gibson style instruments, you won't have so much difficulty in handling them - it does take several months to become comfortable with a bowlback, if you are used to a flatter instrument. And of course if you're used to a 14" scale, you won't have to re-adapt to the shorter bolwback scale every time you switch instruments. The stretches can be a bit much, though.

Actually, the thrill of the chase is rather fun, so if you're patient you can have it all - after a while.

[Jim Garber]

Some more thoughts about the bowlbacks.

First of all check out a great article by our own Richard Walz in the CMSA archives entitled A Closer Look at Roundback Mandolins (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cmsa/archives/0198.html). There you will get a good overview of our beloved mandolin.

Second, my experience is similar to Bob A. I have also accumulated a bevy of bowlbacks over the last year or so. I did get some from eBay but every single one of them needed some work to make it completely playable. In fact many are still waiting to be sent to the luthier when my wallet will allow.

As Bob A says: they are very lightly constructed esp the vintage ones. And over time many folks strung them with overly heavy strings causing much stress on the tops and backs. That is why you often find them with back and top cracks. Overly heavy BTW means standard mandolin strings. You need ultralights (GHS 240s for instance arfe the budget strings and there are other better brands as well).

I wanted to explore the bowlback after many years of disdaining it. In order to do that I bought quite a few and found the ones I liked.

One other thing you need to have a sort of paradigm shift in what tones you are looking for. These mandolins are the polar opposites of F5s: no bark, less bite but sweetness. the best of them have those heartwrenching trebles and soothing midranges.

Oh and we have resurrected our own Post a Picture of Your Bowlback (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185). Eugene has added a bunch more today that are very enticing.

Jim

[Hubert Angaiak]

I wanted to thank all who responded and gave me an excellent starting point. I bought a 1920's Martin, very plain and I think they said it was a 00. Anyway no cracks and very playable. I'm going to need to find a set of lighter strings that will work best with it. I was wondering what the standard setup is suppose to be.. string height at the 12th fret, the placement of the bridge. Where would I find bridges of different heights? Not to offend anyone, when I first got it, tuned it and played it... it sounded bad, but played it more and set the intonation then found there is a tone in there, so I need to get the standard setup to start from and the ring strings I think I'm off and running. Thank you.

Hubert

[Jim Garber]

Strings: best available in the US (not sure where you are located) are the
Dogal (http://www.dogalstrings.it/) Calace sets, soft tension RW92B available from Classic Bows (classicbows@nethere.com) in San Diego. Otherwise, you should get the GHS Ultralights (http://www.juststrings.com/ghs-a240.html). There is also a discussion on lenzner strings but they are not readily available in the US tho a few folks swear by them.

Jim

[Bob A]

Congrats on the new toy, Hubert. I have heard that the new Black Diamond strings are good, but haven't tried them.

Many of these old bowlbacks have sat unplayed for decades. Takes a few days of playing to wake them up again. I'm embarassed to mention how I didn't string up a new old mandolin I'd bought, because it looked like there would be problems with bridge height, string spacing etc; once I went ahead and did it, it was even more disappointing, in that it sounded like a duck. But two days of flailing away cured all problems, and showed me up for the fool I am.

[jerryk]

All,
I just acquired a bowlback at the flea market for the bargain price of $20. Most of the strings were broken, but otherwise it's all there. There is no makers mark. No decoration except for a modest ring of inlay around the sound hole. The instrument looks like it's been laying around in someone's cellar for many years. The nut looks like someone who was not a luthier made it - the slots are all triangular, like they were cut with a 3-point file. The tuning machines look odd - both the tuning pins ( that the strings wind around ) and the pins to the handles - are small diameter, smaller than what I'm used to seeing.

The instrument was so dirty that it could not be cleaned with non-destructive methods. So I took off the tailpiece, strings & tuning machines, cleaned it off with steel wool and 1000-grit sandpaper, masked off the fretboard & sound hole, and sprayed it with a few coats of lacquer. I cleaned the tuning machines in an ultrasonic bath. Tomorrow, I'll put it back together, throw on a set of GHS ultralight strings, and see how it plays!

- Jerry Kaidor

[derbex]

Good luck :)