The best all-around mandolin player?

[Gotterdamerung]

I’m probably not qualified to answer this question, but I thought that it would be a worthwhile discussion. Perhaps because I am a teacher of the arts, I recognize the inherent difficulties and even the folly of attempting subjective judgments; however, I think that we can possibly objectify this by using a few simple (and some subjective) parameters to make a ranking of what defines "all-around best."

1. Obviously, the skill in playing the mandolin: speed, tone, efficiency, a defined style, etc.
2. Range of material the musician covers, i.e. not just bluegrass, jazz, et. al.
3. Lasting songwriting experience, variety, and ability.
4. Familiarity and comfort playing in different settings—solo, band, etc.
5. Significant depth on several mandolin family instruments: mandolin, mandola, octave mandolin, mandocello. Extra points for fiddle, and you can use your judgment on guitar. Subtract points for banjo #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
6. A contemporary player—sorry, no Monroe or Apollon.
7. Don’t base this on potential—even if you think the player could do something, you should base it on whether he has, actually.
8. Musical influence

All the preceding lead me to the following top 5:

1. Mike Marshall—simply the greatest all-around player. Certainly the best mandocello player on the planet, if not the greatest mandolin player (some astonishing mandola work, and a mean fiddle and guitar player as well). Extensive song-writing, numerous band incarnations and experience, amazingly varied musical genres.

2. David Grisman
3. Chris Thile
4. Sam Bush
5. Radim Zenkl

Honorable mention: Peter Ostroushko and Andy Statman.

Feel free to disagree, but don’t forget that your opinion should be based on the qualifiers listed above, not just your personal favorite player.

[cooper4205]

that's a good list but no wakefield?

[DryBones]

would Tim O'Brien qualify?

[John Flynn]

OK now I am going to get out the popcorn. I hate it when people feel the need to make art a contest and someone has to be "the best." Also, these lists are always limited to players who have had some commercial success and popularity, otherwise no one would know about them. I gaurantee there are some regional "best players you never heard of" that will never get nominated. But commercial success doesn't make you the best. Fortunately, I have a way to solve this, once and for all. I have posted this before, but I still stand behind the idea. It is "The Bluegrass Olympics" and I think it should be the new hit reality show.

In this reality show, musicians take turns trying to play as many notes as possible during solo breaks, while the other musicians play defense by trying to throw them off with syncopated rhythms. One point is scored for every note played on key. One point is deducted for every note played off key. Flatted thirds and fifths score two points if they work in the opinion of the judges, two points off if they don’t. Also, style points can be awarded by the judges for playing loud, dressing and talking like Big Mon and having a great axe, like a Gilchrist, Dude, Nugget etc. There are bonus style points if the mando is distressed, even if it got that way because you used it to play racketball.

Only the top scorers get invited back after each commercial. The gold medal goes the last guy standing, who gets to do a “victory jam” all by himself. Just as other athletes can get huge endorsement deals for winning medals, BG Olympic medalists can get recording deals and their own signature Gibson F-5 models. The top winner for the season gets to graduate from bluegrass altogether and go on to play back-up for Shinia Twain or Jack White.

[Roydw3]

just about everyone I hear sounds better than me...but I'm learning...so I can't say who are the best...but

I like Ricky Scaggs, especially Get Up John

I like Sam Bush, David Grisman, Baldasarri and everyone on the Mandolin Extravaganza recordings

I have downloaded all the MP3s on this site and love most of the tunes...especially Mr. Natural...and many of these are from you guys

I love Seldom Scene and IIIrd Tyme Out and Mountain Heart and Grascals...all with great mandolin players

I like Chris Thile and Nickle Creek

I like this older man that shows up at the monthly bluegrass jams who sits in a wheel chair every day of his life but his fingers and wrist are phenominal

There is another older man that isn't the greatest in the world but he smiles like it is the greatest day of his life

I also like the young boy who comes to some of the festivals in the area who has downs syndrome. he plays a rogue and just strums away...that'll make you stop griping about the tune you are trying to learn

I love that my mom is trying to learn to play...I had the pleasure of giving her the first real mandolin she owned...she bought a wall hanger off of ebay and couldn't figure out why it sounded like garbage

Favorites...got a bunch of em...best...hmmmmm...I don't know...I like em all...but usually, it is who I am listening to at the moment or the tune I am trying to learn

This is kind of like the post about a year ago about the must have mandolin cd's...everyone has a favorite and favorites change...at least mine do

By the way, there is a young man from Hobbs, New Mexico, that is near to us that has won a couple of big championships. He is just a teenager, but you hide and watch, this kid is going to be huge some day. He is going to Winfield this year. I don't gamble, but if I did, I would bet that in the near future he will win at Winfield.

Anyway, there are some of my favorites

Denny

[mandobsessed]

What about Carlo Aonzo? Marilyn Mair (SP)? Jethro Burns? Dave Appollon? There are so many amazing players in all genres. The main purpose of these threads is to expose me to mando players I might not have heard of yet.

[AW Meyer]

"The Best" is really a futile exercise. "My Favourite," now that's a different thing altogether.:laugh: Five of my favourites are (in no particular order) John Reischman, David Grisman, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, and a young Canuck by the name of Andrew Collins. So now you all know who I like. But, um, Big Deal!

[rhetoric]

I like the Olympics idea, jflynn! And during the opening exercises a lone figure could jog into the stadium, ascend the platform and light a banjo on fire -- the eternal flame.

[John Flynn]

And during the opening exercises a lone figure could jog into the stadium, ascend the platform and light a banjo on fire -- the eternal flame
Wow, that's almost...poetic! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dave Schimming]

There are way too many good mandolin players to try and pick the top 5. Sometimes its the player that shines and sometimes it's the song being played.

[cooper4205]

i think this can be discussed light heartedly, i me in your own opinion who do you think the best all around mandolin player is. it doesn't have to be a pissing contest http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but it is interesting to see everyone's perspective on this and it's interesting to see who shares the same opionions or the chance to hear about a really good mando player you never heard of, just my two cents and not trying to tick anyone off. take it easy

[Gotterdamerung]

I meant this post as a major variation on the usual "who is the best player" posts, by giving it parameters--defining characteristics to comprise a rubric of sorts. Perfect? No, but more interesting than the purely subjective "best," which would mean "favorite." I have a few favorites that I wouldn't put on this list, simply by virtue of the qualifiers I posted. Ricky Skaggs comes to mind. And upcoming potential--Andrew Collins. But sticking within definable boundaries, I wouldn't put them at the top.

As far as regional players are concerned, of course many great talents exist everywhere, but can they play Bach in a mandolin quartet, make groundbreaking music in a new genre, play all the mandolin family instruments with fluidity? I doubt it. And I specifically did not make this a list limited to bluegrass, however interesting you might find a bluegrass olympics to be.

I agree with DryBones: Tim O'Brien would have to figure in here somewhere.

[bluegrassjack2]

You have to put Ronnie McCoury at the top of the list.

[carleshicks]

1. John Rieschman
2. Chris Thile
3. David Grisman
4. Mike Marshal
5. Butch Baldisari

I think all of these fit the pemrameters in no particular order.

[olgraypat]

I feel about the same about this that I do about other "contests" of artistic ability, which is not so good. And, why, in a a "best all around mandolin player" list would we give points for playing mandola, fiddle, songwriting etc? Seems as though you can set your criteria to determine your outcome.

[John Rosett]

In this reality show, musicians take turns trying to play as many notes as possible during solo breaks, while the other musicians play defense by trying to throw them off with syncopated rhythms.
mj - that's a perfect description of my old jazz trio in montana. when did you see us?

[Tim]

My feeling is that if you don't like these discussions, read something else. I don't think anyone takes them too seriously. What they do that has benefit is provide some ideas for those of us who are always trying to find more interesting things to listen to.

[Ken Sager]

Seems as though you can set your criteria to determine your outcome.
Criteria always determines outcome, unless there is no criteria.

Ignoring the "Best Mandolinist, etc..." criteria here is my list:

Michael Jordan
Miles Davis
Thurgood Marshall
John Adams
Sharon Stone

Oh, and John Reischman.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Love to all,
Ken

[troika]

Adam Steffey, Shawn Lane, Wayne Benson, Jimmy Gadreau to name a few.

[olgraypat]

I like Ken Sager's list, and glad to see he ignored the criteria for being able to play mandola and fiddle as well as eliminating old timers, which seem to have nothing at all to do with "best all-around mandolin player."

[tiltman]

Sharon Stone...?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Ah, Vintage http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Kirk

[red7flag]

Two that I would add to the list Andy Leftwich and Alan Bibey.
Tony

[acumando]

Dunno about "best", but Evan Marshall is pretty mind-blowing...

[J. Mark Lane]

OK, fine. I'm going to give the once and for all, definitive answer. Yes, I do love absolutes.

So...the Best Mandolin Player in the Whole Wide World is.....

Milla Jovovich.

Ahhhh...I'm *so* in love with that girl!

[DryBones]

Hey Mark,
what's your favorite Milla movie? I'm going with 5th Element,how about you?

"multi-pass"

[jtg423]

Probably not the most versatile player but absolutely nobody gets tone out of a mandolin and has the smooth sound of Adam Steffey.
also honorable mentions in no particular order:
Wayne Benson
Chris Thile
Ronnie McCourey
Alan Bibey

[Gotterdamerung]

I think I might have been more accurate to have written "most complete" or "most versatile" rather than "best"--short-sighted on my part, as I was actually suggesting that. Some amazing players are being brought up, but it isn't exactly as if I've never heard of all of them. My list may be imperfect, but I tried to define the parameters rather than engaging in the hackneyed and totally subjective best lists that arise at times.

Niles: Richard Thompson, while obviously not with an extensive mandolin repertoire (though some interesting stuff), is certainly one of my top two or three favorite musicians. I can't think of too many people whom I'd rather see with a Lowdon guitar. I also agree that the instrument goes beyond what many perceive it to be, which, oddly enough was part of the intent of the thread, since the board focuses a great deal on Bluegrass.

That being said, I constructed the thread to ask a meaningful question: who in the mandolin world is especially adept in a multiplicity of genres: bluegrass, jazz, dawg, choro, classical, etc., who can play some or all of the related instruments, who has had a meaningful influence on the instrument and music in general? Some amazing players exist in any of the genres. Hamilton de Holanda, for instance, is astounding, but he doesn't have the broad experience playing classical music, for one, that his occasional duet partner, Mike Marshall does (though he sure did play an amazing "Blackberry Blossom" with Mike playing harmony both times I have seen them together).

[TeleMark]

Boy! A lot of people seem to have had their cornflakes peed on recently.

I didn't see a trophy awarded as a result of this thread, nor an increase in any recording contracts. I look at these threads as a good way to maybe find someone who I haven't listened to before, and to see what people find interesting.

Given this thread, maybe we should add "Subjective Mandolin Player Feelings" to the list of verboten topics like sex and politics...

[monroerules]

There was a man no one has really heard of. I think his name was Bill Monroe or something.

[J. Mark Lane]

Jason -- yeah, 5th Element is awesome! Not only great Milla (I love when she wakes up!), but just a great movie all around. Almost as good as The Toxic Avenger!

Still, my favorite Milla is that vid that gets linked here now and then with her singing "Strange Behavior." Ahhh.

[OregonMike]

How about the best all-around mandolin playing face? I've been practicing this one in the mirror but am still in awe every time I see him play. This one from last weekend in Bend:

http://home.teleport.com/~wrdforce/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/thile.jpg

[A9cp]

nope he has gas,

[Strange1]

Anyone but me. Ole' Jethro is maybe my fav.

CC

[Dave Hanson]

Such a long list, and still no mention of Mike Compton, strange.

Dave H

[B. T. Walker]

Or Emory Lester.

[williebruce]

Ok, here's my completely objective and unbiased opinion of the worlds greatest and most fluent mandolin players:

Sam Bush
Wayne Benson
Doyle Lawson
Ronnie Reno
Joe Clark
Alan Bibey

Honorable mention goes to:

Ricky Skaggs
Marty Stuart
John Rigsby
Don Rigsby

And lets not forget the greats that aren't with us anymore such as:

Bill Monroe
John Duffy
and of course
Jethro Burns


I think that covers just about every genre of music,,,Bluegrass, NewGrass, Fast Grass, Slow Grass, Classic Grass,etc.....

[danersen]

Hello All,

Did I miss it or is there not a single mention (until now) of Herschel Sizemore?

Be Well,

Dan

No list is complete without Andy Statman (http://www.andystatman.org/index.html). This guy is amazing. If you're not familiar with him check out this (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=21255;hl=stacy+mandoli n) message thread from an earlier Cafe discussion. Make sure to listen to the sound bites on his site.

[JimRichter]

These ranking threads are lame.

Yes, there were supposed "parameters" established to objectify the ranking; however, as Niles explicitly said and someone else alluded to, the very parameters are subjective in nature because they are trying to draw out and limit to certain mandolin players (mainly of the new acoustic music variety). The mandolin world goes way beyond bluegrass or dawg music (and honestly, I'm sick of dawg music).

Frankly, I think Niles had a brilliant post and it demonstrated the short-sightedness of the thread starting post.

Jim

[BluegrassGirl26]

It's so hard to just pick five but here it goes:

Adam Steffey

Chris Thile

Doyle Lawson

Sam Bush

......and my favorite

Dan Tyminsky http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

I agree with Jim Richter (except I'm not tired of Dawg music...I love it!). I remember when I was about 12, there was always this discussion among the boys: "Who is the best drummer in the whole wide world!?" This is at about the same level....

[Keith Erickson]

I remember when I was about 12, there was always this discussion among the boys: "Who is the best drummer in the whole wide world!?"
As it was then and it is today and will always be forever and ever...

...Everyone know's it's Neil Peart http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

J Mark Lane,

Who could ever forget that one http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Thanks for the walk down memory lane http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[FlawLaw]

...Everyone know's it's Neil Peart #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
No, its not, its Tony Williams...

[Keith Erickson]

No, its not, its Tony Williams...
Whhhhhaaaat?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

You obviously have not heard the YYZ drum solo on Exit Stage Left #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # #

[JimRichter]

And for the parameters of selecting the world's best drummer, we would have to institute the following:

1) Must never have spontaneously combusted,
2) Must never have drowned in a swimming pool,
3) Must never have choked on his own vomit,
4) Must never have crooned a song about "boogaloos,"
5) #Credit for having also had a lucrative singing career belting out power pop ballads,
6) #Must have at least played "Wipe Out" once in a cover band (but never since),
7) #Must possess a command of the double-beaters,
8) #Must have married or dated at least one model or TV actress (extra credit for multiple such relationships)
9) #Must have a very large drumstick(s). #Extra credit for having demonstrated its use on videos distributed through the internet.


Jim

[J. Mark Lane]

OK, that made me laugh loud enough to raise interest among my office-mates. Good stuff, Jim!

I hate to even raise the question of ...Who is the Very Best Guitar Player in the Whole Wide WORLDhttp://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?!!!!

[Steve S.]

I would include Simon Mayor, a true mandolin virtuoso and great composer for the instrument.

[John Flynn]

Who is the Very Best Guitar Player in the Whole Wide WORLD?!!!!
I know, I know! Esteban! Right?

[Keith Erickson]

Who is the Very Best Guitar Player in the Whole Wide WORLD?!!!!
I know, I know! Esteban! Right?
jflynnstl

Everyone knows that Ingve Malmstein is the greatest guitar player ever http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Wow, I never realized how lame we all are, thanks guys. I feel better now. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lefty&French]

I’m probably not qualified to answer this question, but I thought that it would be a worthwhile discussion. Perhaps because I am a teacher of the arts, I recognize the inherent difficulties and even the folly of attempting subjective judgments; however, I think that we can possibly objectify this by using a few simple (and some subjective) parameters to make a ranking of what defines "all-around best." (...)
"Teacher of the arts"...and "Who is the best" are in my mind two very different parameters, like "art" and "objectify".
Enjoy music... even if it's a minor art. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gotterdamerung]

I sure appreciate having the logic of my post being reduced to the puerile discussion of 12 year olds. Interesting tone here. I was merely trying to solicit opinion related to what I thought was an interesting question--not who is the best, which is what several tried to seize upon--but who is the best all-around, which I phrased poorly: who is the most versatile player is closer to what I meant.

That, of course, would obviate someone in who operates exclusively in bluegrass, not because he or she isn't great--just because I defined the parameters to showcase as much as possible of the range of what is commonly done with the instrument, including genre. Dawg musicians may make my list not because I like the music the most (I did leave off my favorite player), but because it encourages a combination of styles and forms. The musicians I have listed have all played extensively in several genres.

I obviously realize that it is difficult to understand that artistic efforts have some objective component to them, given that the popular culture notion suggests otherwise, but the arts can be somewhat objectified. Otherwise, my nephew writes as well as William Shakespeare, Brittany Spears is Maria Callas, and I play as well as Andy Statman. None of these is true, of course, all based on objectifying art.

I wish all the grumpy people well, but I meant no harm with the post.

[JimD]

I am sure you meant no harm with the post and I agree, the whole thing has turned rather puerile.

I've stayed out of this one so far but I have to say that, simply put, many of us feel that the whole concept of "best" is so subjective as to be useless.

No one is suggesting that Briitany Spears is Callas or anything like that. Here we may be comparing an artist with a product of ingenious marketing -- but I digress...

The point is that to compare say Mike Marshall to Carlo Aonzo is comparing apples and oranges. Sure they play the same instrument (with some qualifications) but it doesn't take long before the similarities break down.

I want apples and oranges in my diet (and spinach, tofu and artichokes as well). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I don't speak for everyone here but I find the whole exercise pointless.

[Ken Sager]

I still think Sharon Stone should be near the top of the list. She's the most versatile mandolinist I've ever seen star in a movie, and I don't even think she plays mandolin.

Seriously,
Ken

[John Flynn]

I dunno Ken, at the risk of being puerile, I think that Milla Jovovich could take Sharon down in a "walk-off." And she does play the mandolin.

[kmiller1610]

I sure appreciate having the logic of my post being reduced to the puerile discussion of 12 year olds.
I think the problem is that music is a form of religion for so many. You embrace an artist and what they do for you and it's quite hard to be objective after that. So if your fav plays with another artist of the same instrument, it's easier to let them in. Otherwise,how many "Gods" can a man worship?

I'm a huge Thile fan, but after listening to Live Duets about 30 times, I'm finally seeing the genius of Mike Marshall and have started sampling his stuff and developing a taste for it.

If you were raised on Grisman or Bush or somebody local, they may continue to be your heroes.

So the logic of the thread flies in the face of the illogic of loving....

[John Flynn]

Good analysis, kmiller1610. These "best" threads used to get shut down, because they were just electronic petri dishes for aruguments. Saying an artist is your "favorite" is fine. That's just taking responsibility for your own tastes and preferences. Trying to proclaim an artist is "the best" should be an affront to all artists and those that appreciate art. It is an attempt to simplify and objectify something that is extremely complex and rich. It's interesting that the artists discussed on this thread generally won't go down this road. Other than Frank Wakefield, and you can draw your own conclusions there, I have never heard a great player say things like, "I'm the best mandolin player alive today," or "I am a better player than so and so." It's not just because they don't want to be indiscreet, it's because they know it's not a contest. If we have our mando-heroes, that's great. We should take a lesson from thier attitudes and actions, as well as thier playing.

I hope this post was less "purile," since that seems to be the vocabulary word of the day.

[groveland]

I like Mike Marshall a lot.

[mrbook]

Just like the fastest gun in the west, there is always someone out there you don't know who is a little bit faster. This constant obsession in our society with "the best" gets tiresome, and causes a lot of very good players to get overlooked and ignored. Even a list of my five favorites would change from day to day, and as soon as I finished I would think of a couple names I forgot. Glad to see names like Marty Stuart and Jimmy Gaudreau mentioned, and I like to listen to just about anybody playing the mandolin. Heard a couple fine players at a festival yesterday that I hope to hear again. With so many great players, why worry about who is the best? Listen to them all and keep playing.

Remember the old "Clapton is God" grafitti? I'm a big fan, but I also like Tony Rice, Django Reinhardt, Herb Ellis, and Doc Watson. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[PhilGE]

Simon Mayor is simply one of my absolute favorites. I'm really surprised to see so few people acknowledge his expertise. He's done it all: classical, jazz, bluegrass, old-time, comedy, kids music, arranging, radio programming, composing, multiple instruments, and so forth.

Check out his website. (http://www.mandolin.co.uk/)

http://www.mandolin.co.uk/simon3.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

In all seriousness, and in the spirit of the original post, I would have to agree with Phil. Simon Mayor is probably the most versatile mandolin player around today. His technical abilities are unmatched by any player I've ever heard. And unlike a lot of technically masterful players who cross genre, he somehow gets an amazing degree of feeling in everything he plays. The musical artist I most admire on this planet -- and he happens to also be the one I listen to most often.

[Garrett]

I think it's a perfectly reasonable question, I'm not sure why everyone's getting so twitchy. Frank Wakefield is probably my favorite but he's not on this list. I'll give three:

Andy Statman -- can and has played anything and everything from classical to jazz to celtic to grass to klezmer and much else. I don't see how he could be topped on versatile.
Our own John McGann -- ditto.
Simon Mayor -- close third. Great player!

[Ted Eschliman]

Saying an artist is your "favorite" is fine. That's just taking responsibility for your own tastes and preferences. Trying to proclaim an artist is "the best" should be an affront to all artists and those that appreciate art. It is an attempt to simplify and objectify something that is extremely complex and rich.
More "truth" than poetry.

Very astute observation, Johnny, and I wish more particpants in this thread embraced this obvious subtlety. It would have been a better topic right out of the gate.

[PlayerOf8]

1. Sam Bush
2. David Grisman
2-1/2 Evan Marshall
2-3/4 Mike Marshall
3. Chris Thile
4. Don Stiernberg

[JimRichter]

Saying an artist is your "favorite" is fine. That's just taking responsibility for your own tastes and preferences. Trying to proclaim an artist is "the best" should be an affront to all artists and those that appreciate art. It is an attempt to simplify and objectify something that is extremely complex and rich.
More "truth" than poetry.

Very astute observation, Johnny, and I wish more particpants in this thread embraced this obvious subtlety. It would have been a better topic right out of the gate.
Actually, I don't think it's an attempt to simplify and objectify as much as an attempt to exclude, separate, and protect. #

I don't think it's the intention of the initial poster, but these type of discussions smack of artistic elitism. #Someone is the "best," if they possess the musical knowledge/exposure someone else may not have. #It isn't a matter of artistic genius or originality (I'm all for original thought, no matter how crude) as much as who has the better resume.

I know "pop" culture was dumped on a bit, but one of the things that pop culture did was elevate folk music to art--and there's been a reaction to it ever since. #Pop culture intrinsically entails the masses--and musical/artistic/or academic elitists do everything possible to distinguish themselves from the masses. #If the masses like something, it can't have an artistic or academic merit. #And, if they do feel it has such merit, the merit obviously springs from something the average person wouldn't know or think of. #

I was in both the philosphy and music (audio) programs at Indiana University Bloomington. #I am very proud to have my degree from the IU School of Music (one of the best in the world). #In both the music and philosphy programs, I regularly encountered those elitists. #I was one for awhile. #I did everything possible to write the most pedantic, obtuse dialectics I could--I thought (and was taught) that this was the benchmark for academia. #If my high school educated brother couldn't make heads or tails of it, then obviously I was writing something of significant intellectual merit. #Truthfully, I was writing overbearing "shite." #There is something to plain-spokeness--and I'm a firm believer that this is a quality most found in the non-academic.

Technical ability, good education, good connections, fame, recording history, etc. doesn't make someone the best. #As Ted and someone else said, proclaiming someone the best would be an affront to all artists and art patrons. #How can you measure genius? #I think Tommy Jarrell was a genius, but he wouldn't make such an "objective" test for best fiddler or banjoist. #

All I can speak about are my favorite artists. #I stopped the "my guys is better than your guy" pony race some time ago. #There is always someone faster, better, slicker. #But that doesn't make them the "best." You can play flawlessly but still be emotionally bereft. Give me Neil Young over Yngwie Malmsteen anyday.

Now, maybe this thread should have been "best technician." #Technique you can measure--but again it depends on the genre. #Some areas require different technique.

And I'll stick by what I said earlier--I think these "my guy's better than this other guy" or "who is the best mandolin luthier" threads are lame. #However, they do get a reaction and result in good discourse about the nature of art, etc. #Someone good does sprout out of them.

Jim

[Garrett]

I appreciate these points, but is there really anything wrong with asking who are the most versatile which I think is essentially what was being asked?

[fishdawg40]

I appreciate these points, but is there really anything wrong with asking who are the most versatile which I think is essentially what was being asked?
It's finally been said. Excellent point. I think it is a completly fair question. One I'm not "qualified" to attempt to answer. It's really easy for me to say who my favorite is but to truly analyze the playing of many great mandolinists and discuss their abilities is difficult. I'm sure there are a good few on the board who can discuss the latter. This board is for mandolin discourse and I think the topic starter wanted to have a deeper or perhaps more analytical discussion. This flies in the face of many of the discussions that are basically polls of who everybody likes best.

[PhilGE]

Asking who is the "most" (best, number one, top notch, etc.) is not in itself right or wrong, good or bad, best or worst. It simply invites strong opinions that tend to be exclusive of those who don't fit into narrow categories (like right or wrong, good or bad, best or worst).

So, I simply think Simon Mayor is an extremely talented musician who doesn't get recognition he deserves because he does his own thing, not what will necessarily make him a lot of money. I respect that tremendously.

[Jim MacDaniel]

I'm going with Mandolin Man (http://www.mandolinman.it/) as the hands down, best mandolin player of all time -- after all, per his own admission, he is the Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana of the mandolin.

(But on second thought, isn't David Gilmour the best guitar player of all time?#http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif )

[Tim]

I still maintain that the great "evil" that many see in these type threads doesn't exist. #Let's face it. #This is a website with less than 10,000 registered members and a lot less than that who have logged on in the last six months. #We aren't changing how any significant portion of the population views the arts.

It was a similar thread to this one that led me to Simon Mayor's work. #Just one or two stories like that vastly outweigh the possible harm.

[John Flynn]

I'm going with Mandolin Man as the hands down, best mandolin player of all time -- after all, per his own admission, he is the Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana of the mandolin.
OK, I give in! Mandolin Man is the best. There is no question. You wanna talk versitile? According to his site, he plays belly dancing, pop, latin, hip hop, disco, easy listening, country, swing, blues, samba, tarantella, etc... How many of the other artists mentioned claim that? Also, in that Oasis video, he looks like a hit man for the mob. You gonna tell him he's not the best?

[DryBones]

Mark,
Give me a suggestion for my first Simon Mayor CD. what would be your pick for a must have cd?

thanks in advance http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[John Flynn]

I just PM'ed Mark and Phil on that. They both said "New Celtic Mandolin."

[blugrssmom]

I can't believe all these posts, and only one mention of Mike Compton... To me he's the all around best along with the fellow who brought us all to this music, Mr. Bill Monroe himself.
Now added to the rest of my list....
Sam Bush
Ronnie McCoury
Wayne Benson:p

[Dave Hanson]

Curly Lambert was a bit good too.

Dave H

[david blair]

MMMMMMaatttt Flinner?

[DryBones]

I just PM'ed Mark and Phil on that. They both said "New Celtic Mandolin."
thanks,
I'll add it to "the list" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gotterdamerung]

Some great names being posted; indeed, Simon Mayor is amazing.

While I certainly agree with jflynnstl that we wouldn't find too many players proclaiming that they are the best (thankfully), we do have ample evidence of players calling others the best. I've heard Sam Bush call Mike Marshall the best, Mike call Chris Thile the best, and David Grisman call Sam Bush the best.

And just to reiterate again, I was looking for "most versatile" far more than "best," which was a misnomer on my part, and I was merely desiring a discussion about the same that may reveal some perspectives on players all of us hadn't conceived.

[FredB]

I agree with all the names so far. I have another one that may get me laughed at. But I love his playing and songs ...Chris Hillman.
Fred

[mandocrucian]

I can't believe all these posts, and only one mention of Mike Compton... To me he's the all around best along with the fellow who brought us all to this music, Mr. Bill Monroe himself.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Tim]

While I certainly agree with jflynnstl that we wouldn't find too many players proclaiming that they are the best (thankfully), we do have ample evidence of players calling others the best. I've heard Sam Bush call Mike Marshall the best, Mike call Chris Thile the best, and David Grisman call Sam Bush the best.
My experience is that if you go to a typical bluegrass festival you'll hear "the best" proclaimed in at least 75% of the "introduce the band" segments. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[bluesmandolinman]

so the original question was who is the best all around mandolin player... therefore I think Niles Hokkanen is one of the leaders of the pack !

Many names mentioned are great pickers in their style B.Monroe/Bluegrass or Carlo Aonzo/Classical etc but can they switch to another style in a second ?

René http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[JimD]

So what is the fundamental difference between "best" and "most versatile"?

The issue that many of us have is with the whole concept of superlatives in the first place. It doesn't matter if we are refering to the best in any one style or the one who can play the most styles, the whole thing is totally subjective.

and, no offense to Bill Monroe or any of his fans, but he was not the one that brought me to the mandolin.

[Garrett]

I think there's a difference. I may not prize versatility, I may really love bluegrass and so I think the best is Bill M., but I have to admit he's not versatile in the sense of playing in many genres and many types of music. I agree best is not helpful, "most genres or styles" is vague but its a bit clearer than best and I at least think it's a reasonable question. At the least it makes me think a bit about what versatility means and who is really versatile. Some players can play in a lot of genres but always in the same style -- I love Dawg but that's how he always sounds to me.

Carlos Aonzo plays a mean Jethro-style jazz mando by the way! And he plays a lot of other styles with Beppe as well.

I'm listening at the moment to Radim Zenkl's Strings and Wings. That's amazing versatility in a different sense, being able to improvise on the fly with everyone from an oud player to a sitar to an autoharp to Jerry Douglas. Wild playing, the guy is fabulous.

[Mockingbird]

I think Chris Thile is the absolute best. There's nothing the guy can't play on his mando, and those fingers FLY!

That said, David Immergluck is amazing, too.

[mandobando]

Though I don't care much for giving my opinion on who's best, I have always wanted to ask all of the great players out there, basically all names listed in previous posts, who they think is the best all around. This would be a better answer to the question.

[swampstomper]

How about rephrasing the question to something concrete:

1. If you were a producer with a variety of artists and you needed a session mando player on call who could fit quickly into all their styles and add that mando touch to make the artist sound their best --- who would you have on retainer?

2. If you are cutting a (trad. BG, modern BG, celtic, dawg, jazz....) album and you need a mando player for that particular session, or to play a few gigs out with you, who would you hire?

3. If you were a promoter and you wanted to bring in a mando player and his/her band to bring down the house (with a certain kind of audience -- typical BG festival, folk club, juke joint, recital, jazz cafe...) who would you hire?

So it comes down to horses for courses.

For the record here are a few I would hire:

Category 1: Michael Cleveland (yes, on mando), Mike Marshall.

Category 2: for my BG band Mike Compton, Ronnie McCoury

Category 3: Chris Thile, Herschel Sizemore. And if the audience wants cheap thrills, Ricky Skaggs

[John Flynn]

swampstomper:

If I were a producer or promoter, I would also be concerned about how much I would have to pay. In my area, honestly, we have local guys who could do as well for a local audience, a lot cheaper. Now if I expanded my search to a few hours' drive and put a few extra dollars in my budget, there are performers in Branson, as well as undiscovered guys and studio musicians in Nashville who would knock anyone's socks off. But most people haven't heard of any of them so they would never win your "contest."

Now if the audience was purely mandolin players, that might be a different story, but no producer or promoter ever got rich pandering to mandolin players!

[kmiller1610]

I think Chris Thile is the absolute best. There's nothing the guy can't play on his mando, and those fingers FLY!
This would have been my opinion 6 months ago. Now I think the question is just silly. I worked at really getting into other mando players and decided that if I were to get into the "flow" of Marshall or Grisman or any of the dozens of other great players, that I would feel differently.

To give a concrete example, when "Into the Cauldron" came out, I hated it. All that instrument banging and thudding and hitting the strings to make extra noise. I was in love with the clean playing style Thile showed on "Not all who wander" Now I go back to that album and the playing sounds technical and precise, but also somewhat sparse in places.

When Marshall makes the mando sound like a Cat wailing on "Live Duets" I don't see it as noise any more. He makes the mando sing and cry and emote and wail.

I'm sure familarity and immersion produce these impressions. How do you "rate" something so variable and subject to taste?

[meghory]

Chris Thile is the best mandolin player to ever walk the planet! Period.

[fishdawg40]

Chris Thile is the best mandolin player to ever walk the planet! Period.
Well it looks like the question has finally been settled http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

The "best" as in the best at playing notes really fast, perhaps. But you should remember that not all who play really fast are "best." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif This of course is contingent on the notion of "best" existing, it might just be in your head...

[Jim MacDaniel]

Chris Thile is the best mandolin player to ever walk the planet! #Period.
Well it looks like the question has finally been settled...
I thought we settled it a couple pages back with Mandolin Man -- looks like it is time for a poll:

Chris Thile or Mandolin Man?

[John Flynn]

Chris Thile or Mandolin Man?
I say we settle it with a real (versus claymation) Celebrity Death Match. I'm betting Thile doesn't last 30 seconds in the ring with Mandolin Man. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Seriously, though, while there is no question Thile's got the technical chops over Mandolin Man, he hasn't demonstrated that he can play as wide a range of music as "The Man." Also, I find MM outrageous and interesting in very offbeat sort of way, so I got a kick out listening to his stuff and watching his video. I have heard/seen a lot of Thile stuff. He is a great technical player, but I don't find his music even remotely interesting. When I hear someone in a music store trying out a mandolin by attempting to do a Thile lick, I wanna throw up. So I gotta go with Mandolin Man on this face-off!

[Michael H Geimer]

Part of the origin of my nickname (Benignus*) comes from a love of philosophy, and from my attempts to find grounding principles upon which to prop up my (often slightly-wacko) opinions.

So ... I open with the adage, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

I think any mandolin player I can actually interact with is 'better' than one whom I only know via proxy recording, video, or P.A. broadcasts. Similar to the way any girl you're with is always prettier than Sharon, or Milla ... whom we probably only know via movies and TV. (FWIW: Ms. Stone used to shop at the Whole Foods near my apartment, but that's not really pertinent. )

Real people exist in a more meaningfull space than any public persona can occupy. I think there is lot more information and knowledge to be gained from most any player I'm jamming with, or in a band with, than might be gleened from even the best of the front row seats watching Thile or Dawg.

Therefore: 'The Best' player I've had the good fortune to make music with (though on only a few occasions) is Bay Area local Michael Stadler.

Heck! Our own Michael Lewis has taught me more than Mandolin Man, and I've never even heard the guy play a note! Still, he's been way better to me than Bush.

- Benig

*Brother Benignus was both a philosopher and a musician.

[meghory]

Chris Thile is hardly a player who "just" plays fast. His tone is phenominal! He can also play any style you throw at him. Anyone who doesn't think so hasn't heard him live. I mean anyone who could write and play as young as he did and as well is a genius.

[fishdawg40]

Chris Thile is hardly a player who "just" plays fast. His tone is phenominal! He can also play any style you throw at him. Anyone who doesn't think so hasn't heard him live. I mean anyone who could write and play as young as he did and as well is a genius.
You're correct, but Meghory you just can't go around making statments like "Chris Thile is the best mandolin player to ever walk the planet! Period." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Or perhaps beauty is what others/society tells you what is beautiful? I mean some people love the sound of b#njos http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

There has been many posts prior to mine discussing this notion and more clearly.

[JimD]

This is exactly the kind of discourse that makes the whole concept of "best" or "most versatile" problematic.

Fishdawg40 is right -- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So is versatility.

Can't we just declare a moratorium on this kind of thing and let this thread quietly disappear.

[Ted Eschliman]

If I'm reading the topic right, we're in serious discussion over who we consider the best All "Round" Player.
Hands down, it has to be Bubba (http://jazzmando.com/images/bubbaf9.jpg)...

[dudlebug23]

Please stop this thread! It's pointless! It's like saying "My wife is the most beautiful wife in the world". Sure, I think she is, but one of you may think she looks like something you saw at the local SPCA last week! It's all about taste, and we just need to accept that our taste is our taste, and respect other's for their taste. The Bubba is not my taste, though Ted!

[meghory]

Why can't I " go around making statements like Chris Thile is the best on the planet. Period."? I just happen to think he is. That's my opinion and that's what the thread asked for. Nobody has to agree with me.

[Dave Hanson]

I am the best mandolin player in our house.

Dave H

[kestrel]

Sorry, but your all wrong. Bob is the best.

Have you ever heard him play?

Then, how do you know he ain't?

[mandopete]

Another vote for Mandolin Man!

[T.T. Brown]

Before this thread dies, I vote for a deathmatch between Bubba and Mandolin Man. I predict a victory for Bubba via leg scissors. Then we'll truly know who's the best mandolin player and most versatile wrestler.

[Ken Sager]

I dunno Ken, at the risk of being puerile, I think that Milla Jovovich could take Sharon down in a "walk-off." And she does play the mandolin.
Risk? Puerile? Fine, reduce this thread to a cat-fight!

Meeee-yoooowwwww!

I still think Sharon Stone is the best mandolinist who never played the mandolin. Sure, Milla may be able to play, but why limit the scope so much?

Big risky love to all,
Ken

[Jim MacDaniel]

Chris Thile or Mandolin Man?
I say we settle it with a real (versus claymation) Celebrity Death Match. I'm betting Thile doesn't last 30 seconds in the ring with Mandolin Man...
Especially if they get to take their mandolins into the cage with them: I am guessing that MM will be far more likely to use his Fender as a weapon, than CT his Dude. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Jim MacDaniel]

Another vote for Mandolin Man!
I think that makes at least four votes for MM -- we're really getting some momentum here. How about everyone else out there: are you with us or against us?!?

[John Flynn]

I am guessing that MM will be far more likely to use his Fender as a weapon, than CT his Dude
Yeah, and that plywood doesn't give much. That Fender would really leave a mark if you got hit with it!

[Scott Tichenor]

My lovely bride and I attended a wine tasting at a local restaurant with another couple this evening. The discussion between us was all about with computers, music and bicycles (shared passions). The supplier of the wine was a local retailer and someone we know and trust in their taste as a rule.

The selectons, six in all, ranged from a price of $9.99 to $99.99 per bottle. One of the six was the most expensive, the other the highest rated, and the rest fell between the $9.99 bottle and what remained. It was a blind tasting and the results weren't announced until the end of the evening.

The highest rated selection was pretty good. The most expensive, our party of four all dumped after a few sips. It was horrid. Most of the room dumped it. Some of the rest proclaimed it one of the finest they'd ever tasted. Oddly, there was little in between. My friend who was working the event and who was employed by the retailer and seems to share out tastes said, "well, it's an Old World wine..." with a pained expression on his face.

The best of the evening in our party of four, and most of those in the room it seemed, was a nice Aussie shiraz that was neither very expensive nor rated. But it had a marvelous quality we all agreed was fairly rare.

At the end of the evening the general consensus was that wine is a good thing and that opinions vary greatly depending upon the mood and the food. At the end of the evening we all went happily, though a bit wobbly home, and had enjoyed our time together. New friends were made.

I suppose there's a moral to this story, but darned if I can think of what it might be.

[mandopete]

I suppose there's a moral to this story, but darned if I can think of what it might be.
All mandolin players are whiners?

[Jim MacDaniel]

I suppose there's a moral to this story, but darned if I can think of what it might be.
Australia makes the best all-around wine?

[Gotterdamerung]

I suppose that Scott's post is another vote for Mike Marshall, given that he's the only one mentioned with a CD called "Tasting the Wine Country." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Tasting the Wine Country (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005TNWL/sr=1-1/qid=1155137319/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9168602-2701603?ie=UTF8&s=music)

[olgraypat]

Well, maybe it has something to do with different people having different ideas as to what makes a good wine, but if you set up your own criteria as to what makes the "most versatile wine," others may disagree as to the criteria, especially if you use things like, "extra points for art work on the label," and things of that nature which might seem to some to have no relationhip to how good the wine is. Or maybe if you question the criteria you're just being purile...which by the way I highly recommend....we keep a bottle of it on the secretary's desk, and it is very good for cleaning your hands (depending of course on your criteria)...

[Tim]

Let me try. If everyone had agreed from the start which was best there would have been no reason to taste the others. While you won't really decide which is best, this can give you an idea of other things to try.

[Eric F.]

Wine is good. So are mandolins. Therefore, burgundy-burst mandolins rule. QED.

[bsimmers]

In order:
1)Sam Bush
2)Sam Bush
3)Sam Bush
4)Sam Bush
5)Sam Bush

Honorable mention:
Ramona Jones

[Dave Gumbart]

Just waded through all (well, most) of this thread after peeking when it first started. Unrelated to the mando best, I liked Jim Richter's observation that..."You can play flawlessly but still be emotionally bereft. Give me Neil Young over Yngwie Malmsteen anyday." Made me remember something Neil said back maybe 20 years or so ago when he was on one of his tours with Crazy Horse. He was asked about how he thought he and Crazy Horse would rank among the best bands in the world. Neil's response was that he thought they were the third best band in the world. See, if you're first, you'll never last at that top spot, so who wants the pressure? And definitely not second, since, hey, you're not # 1, and who wants to be second best? He felt they were third, since he knew they could just do their thing and not worry about anyone else - they just enjoyed playing rock and roll together.

Always liked Neil, and to me, that answer spoke worlds about him, Crazy Horse, and just following your muse.

Dave

[Gotterdamerung]

Or maybe if you question the criteria you're just being purile...which by the way I highly recommend
"Puerile" is an adjective meaning "immature" or "childish" for all of you who find it so amusing. "Callow" would be a fine synonym.

olgraypat: the only thing I called "puerile" was the discussion earlier of one of the member's recollection of his experiences as a 12 year-old pondering the best drummer in the world--comparing the two lines of thought falls apart fairly quickly. Questioning the criteria is fair game, but if you read the post, you notice that I am making an attempt to objectify something that is far more subjective, simply by using criteria, and nothing was quite like the art on the label, I hope.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Wine is good. So are mandolins. Therefore, burgundy-burst mandolins rule. QED.
Agreed, but I wonder why Australian luthiers aren't experimenting more with Shiraz-burst finishes? #(I ask because there have been some mighty fine Pinot-bursts coming out of Oregon over the past decade or so.)

[JimRichter]

the only thing I called "puerile" was the discussion earlier of one of the member's recollection of his experiences as a 12 year-old pondering the best drummer in the world--comparing the two lines of thought falls apart fairly quickly.

My sparring partner Mark made that comment and frankly, I don't find much difference between his joke and your attempt to provide some objective criteria to determine who the "best all-around" mandolin player is. #

There isn't a whole lot of difference between "that {insert the minority of your choice} is inferior" and saying "based upon my thorough objective scientific research, I have determined that {insert the minority of your choice} is inferior." # The first is pure opinion; the other is supposed objective study. #But in truth, they're both racist. #Been many a country/group--the US included--that tried to use objective criteria to advance one group/race, and enslave another.

The problem with objective critiques is the person/group determining the objective criteria. #We see it in academia, in science, in organized religion, and especially in politics/government. #What we accept as objective "beyond dispute" criteria/beliefs one day seem to change over time in relation to who is in power, what thoughts are in vogue, etc.

I think the intent of looking for the best all-around mandolin player is really the same as looking for the "best." #It's again an "objective" way of using versatility as a determiner for who the best is. #Art can't be marginalized like that. #The beauty of Art is that it is a subjective experience. Trying to rank artists is a futile and superfluous endeavor. Now, a thread discussing who had the best technique or the greatest musical knowledge might have worked, based upon your criteria. #But even then it gets tricky.

The truth about growing up is that often times we just find more "adult" ways to do and say the same stupid a$$ stuff we did as kids. #It's the same type of discussion as saying So and So is the best drummer (because he is!), but just in a more civil, pedantic manner.

And, yes, as a kid, I was a know-it-all. # #When it comes to personality, time doesn't change too much.

Jim

[John Flynn]

Purile, huh? Well you guys have cooties! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[arbarnhart]

And, yes, as a kid, I was a know-it-all. # #When it comes to personality, time doesn't change too much.
And you no doubt know the old adage:

Those of us who think they know it all are least appreciated by those of us who do.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[FlawLaw]

Mr. Richter's statement was very well said indeed. Now that is very well said indeed. I too see no real objective way to measure the art of mandolin playing or its versatility. With drummers, bassists, mandolinist...there are so many factors, inlcuding the factor of the one rating. A very weeks ago I couldn't get enough of Tim O'Brien so I played his music like crazy, before that it was Bill Monroe, and then Andy Statman, and now Rory Gallagher. I would question the value of such a rating scheme. Is it merely to gather a listing of the many great mandolinists in the world so that we can then go and support their music...

[JimRichter]

"More cow bell" is like ketchup--it'll just go with any discussion http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Gotterdamerung]

To bring racial superiority into a discussion about musical versatility strains the imagination of what an analogy can and should do.

In any art form, various factors automatically rank the participants, some fairly (technique, influence, etc.), some with mixed results (commercial viability), and some unfairly (marketing, etc.). Without any objective criteria in all the arts we have total chaos.

What a child lacks at 12 is experience, which may indicate why comparing the perspective on "who's the best" run by pre-teens, who likely lack the breadth of knowledge of players, and mature adults, who presumably have listened to thousands of players, is, in fact, an inappropriate and false analogy--indeed, one whose sole aim is to inflame and ridicule. I'm happy that people come to different conclusions than mine, which makes us all consider some of these players differently--for those who didn't know the versatility of Carlos Aonzo or Hamilton de Holanda, for instance (not to mention that some may not have heard of them), the thread could cause some musical exploration.

I see posts on this board quite frequently that I find to be silly, but I don't post just to show my supposed superiority, I just pass them by.

[Scott Tichenor]

I think this one has run its course.