McReynolds Crosspicking Redux

[EdSherry]

In addition to the Andy Statman book published by Oak many years ago (and long out of print), there are several other sources.

First, Jesse put out a Homespun video (now on DVD) that describes what he does.

Second, Jack Tottle has some McReynolds breaks written and tabbed out in his Bluegrass Mandolin.

Third, Mickey Cochran has a Mel Bay book on "Mandolin Crosspicking." Not specifically linked to McReynolds or any particular McReynolds tune, but I found it helpful for ideas.

Anyone know of any other sources?

[luckylarue]

Andy Statman's Teach Yourself Bluegrass Mandolin has a few tunes in the McReynolds style. It's the first instructional book I ever bought and, many years later, I keep going back to it. Anyone have a review of the Jesse Homespun dvd/video? Sounds like it could be the best resource for cross-picking. Also, maybe we should all petition Oak to re-release the Statman book. I'm sure it'd sell a few copies.

[glauber]

Folk of the Wood (http://www.folkofthewood.com/page16.htm)(*) has a book on crosspicking. It used to be available online for free, and i remember it had a lot of good stuff in it.

There are some basic crosspicking lessons by the same author in the Cafe's tutorial pages (http://mandolincafe.com/crosspicking.html).

(*) Caveat emptor (= Danger, Will Robinson!): i'm not endorsing Folk of the Wood in any way.

[glauber]

Correction: still available for free (http://www.folkofthewood.com/page5297.htm).

[jmcgann]

Folk of the Wood(*) has a book on crosspicking. It used to be available online for free, and i remember it had a lot of good stuff in it.

That is not McReynolds style crosspicking-it is alternate picking.Here's the difference. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html)

[glauber]

John, well, kinda, but really both: for example: Wildwood Flower (http://www.folkofthewood.com/page4539.htm).

[jmcgann]

Just one example, Bars 4 and 5 ought to get a forward roll rather than alternate picking...there are other passages here that to me would sound like authentic crosspicking with the application of the "rolls" as presented in Andy's Jess book.

I don't mean to be rude, but to me (and probably to Jesse and Andy) "crosspicking" does not mean alternate picking. I do think having it written the way it is in the book DUDU alternate is good to show the very important contrast in crosspicking vs. alternate, but it isn't presented that way.

There was a time when I thought the distinction was bogus, but I am now a Believer http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif The articulation makes all the difference in the world as far as the "feel" and (dare I say) the "soul" of a passage.

I'm sure the arrangements in the book are fine, musically, but to call it "Mandolin Crosspicking" to me just ain't right. Maybe I'm too uptight, but as far as I know, there's not much else on the market for people who want to learn about crosspicking technique (http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html) and I think it's misrepresented, especially in the beginning of the book.

It's in the Berklee library, so I am in the position to debrief my students http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Tom Tax]

I recently bought a new copy of Andy Statman's book complete with an accompanying CD. I assume this is a reissue of the book under discussion. http://www.amazon.com/gp....=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0825603269/104-7658213-0410353?v=glance&n=283155)

[Dan Cole]

This is the book you want and can no longer get since it is out of print.

http://www.amazon.com/gp....ion=all (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0825602203/ref=dp_olp_0/104-7311726-2347144?ie=UTF8&condition=all)

I have this and it is the best.

[Dan Cole]

If someone can email me the contact information for Oak Publication, I will send them and Andy Staman a letter and see if I can get written persmission to give away at no charge a copy of this book in pdf format. #I don't want to break any copywright laws, etc, just want to help fellow mandoplayers get the correct information on this long OOP book. #One would think a reprint from the publishers would be in order.

Just my 2 cents.

[glauber]

John, you're not being rude. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Do be gentle when de-briefing students, though.

I agree, the articulation is everything. The style in that FOTW book is not Jesse McReynolds' style. When i hear Jesse McReynolds, it sounds a lot like 5-string banjo to me. (Not the sound, but the way it's articulated and how the melody gets plugged into the arpegios.)

[jmcgann]

Oak Publications:

Music Sales Corporation
257 Park Avenue South
20th floor
New York, NY 10010
Contact
Denise Maurin
Telephone:
(212) 254-2100
Fax:
(212) 254-2013
Email:
dm@musicsales.com
Website:
www.schirmer.com/msg.html
====================

I just sent an email requesting reprinting of the whole series (which includes Russ Barenberg's Clarence White book and Matt Glaser's Kenny Baker book).

[Dan Cole]

Thanks for the information John. I will send an email asking permission to give away for free, copies of the pdf I made of this book. If I can get everything covered perhaps it can be posted as a download without our host incurring any wrath from anyone.

That Clarence White book is great too. Maybe the mandolin community can get lucky on this. That Jesse Book really is great. On a similar note, one would think they (OAK) would include a CD of the original floppy record that came with the series including the Jack Tottle "Bluegrass Mandolin" book.

Cheers

[EdSherry]

I agree with John McGann that the Cochran book (originally published by FOTW, now distributed by Mel Bay, with some lessons available on-line as discussed above) does use a bunch of alternate picking, and much of it is not representative of "McReynolds crosspicking."

One thing that Jesse did a lot was to have a drone string (usually the open E string), akin the the drone 5th (high G) string in Scruggs-style banjo.

I agree with John that alternate picking has a different touch and different sound than a DUU DUU DU reverse roll (or a DDU DDU DU forward roll), and that articulation is very important.

Kind of like the difference between playing jigs DU DU DU vs. DUD DUD. #I used to think it was all in the right hand accent ("as long as I accent the 1st and 4th beats properly, it doesn't matter what pick direction I use, so I can play jigs with alternate picking so long as I get the accents right"). #But since I've gotten my head/hands used to DUD DUD, I've [largely] been converted (though there are jigs I play with alternate picking because they seem to me to lay and sound better that way).

But to my ears/fingers, there are three major features of "cross-picking." #One involves phrasing: #what I generally refer to as a "calypso" beat (3+3+2), which is also the first half of a "Bo Diddley"/clave beat. #The other involves "crossing the strings" (e.g., playing strings GAD GAD GA, with the corresponding repeated "string jumps" from the G string to the A string). #The third involves pick direction.

Pick direction is clearly important, but I've played a lot of music incorporating the first two features (3+3+2 phrasing, string crossing), while still using alternate picking (especially on guitar). #Sure sounds like "cross-picking" to me. #(Doc Watson is a master at it.) #

For some reason, I find it easier to do forward rolls (strings 432 432 42) than backwards rolls (423 423 42) with alternate picking. I find that when I want to play backward rolls, I typically will go to a DUU DUU DU picking pattern.

Part of it may be that I started playing what is commonly termed "cross-picking" on guitar, along the lines of Doc Watson or Clarence White, years before I ever tried to do it on a mandolin.

Saying that playing in a 3+3+2 pattern with string-skipping is not "TRUE" cross-picking if you play it with alternating strokes, but IS "true" cross-picking if you use DDU DDU DU or DUU DUU DU picking, seems to me to be more a matter of semantics than music. #(That said, I fully agree that the two playing techniques will sound and feel different, and that treating them as though the distinction is not musically important can be misleading.)

If you want to "really" sound like Jesse, alternate picking just doesn't cut it (IMHO). #But as I see it, there is more to "cross-picking" than just "McReynolds-style cross-picking."

Also: #in my experience, a little cross-picking goes a long way, and is best interspersed with runs, chords, etc. #(Ever listen to a banjo player who has learned his first Scruggs forward roll, and plays that roll constantly? Help!) #McReynolds intentionally based his style on the sound of Scruggs-style banjo. #But banjo players learned long ago to mix up their patterns so as not to be monotonous.

By using alternate picking, I personally find it easier to slip into (and out of) the calypso rhythm and string skipping aspects as the improvisational muse strikes me -- e.g., throwing in a connecting single-string run without messing up my overall alternate picking. #(Again, listen to Doc Watson to hear a master at work.)

[jmcgann]

Saying that playing in a 3+3+2 pattern with string-skipping is not "TRUE" cross-picking if you play it with alternating strokes, but IS "true" cross-picking if you use DDU DDU DU or DUU DUU DU picking, seems to me to be more a matter of semantics than music. (That said, I fully agree that the two playing techniques will sound and feel different, and that treating them as though the distinction is not musically important can be misleading.)


Your opinion obviously varies from mine, which is fine...I think it is NOT semantics at all, it is just as you observed about the difference between alternate and jig picking. It's about the emPHAsis on the right sylLAble (as in the clave you mentioned). It IS different music IMHO.

[EdSherry]

John, I would agree with you completely except for the fact that I think that there is a difference between accenting and pick direction. #

I try to get my playing to the point where I can accent an upstroke, a downstroke, both or neither. #Playing DUU DUU DU makes the downSTROKES fall on the calypso beats (1, 4 and 7), but doesn't necessarily cause the ACCENTS to fall on those beats. #

Part of the problem is that the "DU" notation shows only pick directions, not musical accents. By using a mixture of capital letters for accented notes and lower-case letters for unaccented notes, we can distinguish between the two.

For example, I often will syncopate my alternate picking when playing Brazilian music by playing Du dU dU dU. #A very different sound than Du Du Du Du, even though both use the same pick direction pattern.

I also sometimes syncopate my "crosspicking" by playing Ddu dDu Du (on strings 432 432 42), which has the 3+3+2 note/picking pattern, but with a very different accent pattern.

Same thing with jigs. #I often play them Dud Udu, with the accents on 1 and 4, but with the downstrokes on 1, 3 and 5. #Dud Udu is the same accent pattern as Dud Dud, but a different picking pattern.

I would fully agree that certain accents fall more naturally and easily when you use a particular picking pattern. #When playing jigs, I find that it's easier to accent beats 1 and 4 playing Dud Dud than it is to accent them playing Dud Udu. #But both (when executed properly) have the same notes with the same accents in the same places. #And sometimes I find that Dud Udu just "lies easier" for some tunes (or some measures within tunes) than Dud Dud does.

Is it "different music"? #Using different ACCENTS clearly makes a difference; there's a world of difference between DuDuDu and DudDud (or DudUdu). #The first simply isn't anything I'd recognize as a jig; the second clearly is; and, I submit, the third is as well.

Calling Dud Udu "different music" than Dud Dud DOES strike me as a "semantic" point, not a musical one.

Maybe we're just both saying that "prototypical" cross-picking is Ddu Ddu Du (or its "reverse roll" counterpart Duu Duu Du). #But I would submit that Dud Udu Du (as long as it uses string-crossing like 423 423 42) also qualifies as "cross-picking" as I've historically heard that term used.

And I think we would both agree that, assuming one has already learned straight alternate picking, learning to play Ddu Ddu Du (and Duu Duu Du) gives one a broader "musical pallette" from which to choose. #

In particular, I personally found that I can generally play faster and cleaner playing "reverse rolls" (Duu Duu Du on 423 423 42) than I can trying to play the same notes using Dud Udu Du.

PS -- Lest anyone get the impression that John and I fundamentally disagree, let me make it clear that I have the utmost respect for his playing and teaching, and his OM/zouk book is providing me with lots of useful ideas to enliven my spare time (even though I find it frequently frustrating, by showing me how much I still have to learn!).

[jmcgann]

Ed-= I have to respectfully disagree with the accent concept- ask any Django style player about the difference between upstrokes and downstrokes- there is no way that an upstroke can be accented to sound like a downstroke. Accented, yes, but the downstroke really has a unique sound quite different from the downstroke.

Unless we are in zero gravity (not in the 'recreational' sense, but in actual orbit http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #), the downstroke is something that falls to the floor, as opposed to the up, which is always going to be "going against the grain".

The Gypsy players use mostly downstrokes, and have an arcane rule that one never switches strings on an upstroke- all for reasons of POWER in the sound (stemming from everyone playing acoustically and having to cut through the sound of five drunken cousins bashing rhythm!).

The power really comes through with the rest stroke. The upstroke is just not analagous; and the opinion is not just mine, but there is an entire musical tradition behind it, which is another reason I subscribe to the theory.

I play my rolls with rest strokes.


Calling Dud Udu "different music" than Dud Dud DOES strike me as a "semantic" point, not a musical one.

I used to agree with that, too, but not now- I can really hear and feel a difference in the actual musical results. On paper? Sure, they look the same. Sonically? It's something else, and to me as a player and teacher, it is an important distinction. Especially with jig picking- there are few proponents of DUD UDU for jigs (Kieran Hanrahan, banjo player late of Stockton's Wing being a notable and quite vocal exception).

That said, I believe folks should use what they like the sound of, but it pays to investigate all the options. I was Mr. Alternate Picking for years, and didn't believe that pick direction had that much bearing on the music. Now I'm Mr. Options http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

I do draw a distinction between "crosspicking" and "alternate picking across the strings". I strongly feel that the musical results justify the distinction. I may be a party of one, but that's OK. I'll bring the beer (even if i don't drink it- just in case it becomes a bigger party) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Thanks for your kind words, Ed! It is great to agree to disagree with a gentleman.

======
Late additional thought: if you use a thin pick, the tonal distinction between downstrokes and upstrokes is less pronounced than if you use a thick pick. There is a world of difference in the tone of 99% of Irish/Scottish players, who prefer the thin pick, compared to the modern American tonalists like Grisman, Bush, Rice, etc. who use the thicker picks, and the Django style players who use triple thickness bank vault doors.

[mandocrucian]

Nearly every monster Tele player that does banjo rolls uses the pick and at least one finger.

I tend to use (on mandolin) pick and middle finger replacing D-u-u with D-m-u with much more pleasing results (to my ear).

Niles H

[Tom Smart]

I play my rolls with rest strokes.
John,

I agree with you regarding the overall discussion, but I'm wondering about this. Could you elaborate? I have trouble understanding how you could do a backward roll with the initial downstroke being a rest stroke. Wouldn't that make it really difficult (impossible) to position the pick for the first upstroke, two strings over?

Thanks,
Tom

[jmcgann]

Hi Tom- I should have specified for the forward roll- the reverse roll initial downstroke would indeed be a free stroke to jump up to the 2nd note's upstroke 2 strings away (for a typical 3 note roll).

[arbarnhart]

John,

I have a couple of questions for you. First is, do you see harm in learning from the Cochran book as an intro and then trying other picking patterns? In other words, does it teach a bad habit or teach a technique that can be tweaked to sound better? I bought the book largely due to a glowing review in Mandolin Magazine (http://www.mandolinmagazine.com/reviews/crosspicking.html).

The second question is about tab. I am with you as far as it not being optimal and I do read notation for a lot of the reasons you give on your site, but I have to agree with the reviewer in the above article that for learning this technique tab makes a lot of sense. It seems that these notes are more rhythm than melody so it is more about the chord you are playing than the note. I have played around with trying alternate chord forms on a couple of the songs but still picking the same strings and most sound pretty good. Anyway, is there an alternative to tab for crosspicking notation?

[EDIT] - one other thing - I would suggest this thread be moved over into Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks.

[EdSherry]

John, I agree that "the musical results" is what matters, and that different picking patterns do sound different.

I agree that an accented downstroke sounds (subtly or otherwise) different from an accented upstroke, which is why Django-style players go through the contortions they do (especially with their "triple thickness barn doors"!). #I was just pointing out that there is a much LESS subtle difference between an unaccented stroke (in either direction) and an accented stroke -- like your "acCENT on the right sylLABle" example.

For example, I find that I sometimes cross-pick with a ddU ddU dU accent pattern if I want to accent the highest note (especially if I'm holding down the lower strings and varying the note on the highest string). #That has a very different sound than DduDduDu, even though the pick directions and notes played are the same.

I also agree that rest strokes sound different from (and more powerful than) rest strokes, which again I think is a different issue from up- vs.- downstrokes per se. #(I can play a free downstroke or a rest downstroke, a free upstroke or a rest upstroke -- though I find that some are easier than others, especially depending on what stroke you intend to play next).

In particular, if one is playing Ddu Ddu Du on 432 432 42, the 1st and 4th beats are prototypically played as rest strokes for more power (as you indicate), with the other downstrokes and all of the upstrokes played as free strokes.

I fully agree that learning to "cross-pick" (in the Ddu Ddu Du or Duu Duu Du sense that you have identified) is fundamentally physically different from straight alternate picking, and that adds a subtle-but-important difference that is very much worthwhile and is part of the musical aesthetic of "getting it right" -- or, rather, getting it "in the tradition" that we all are trying to learn from.

Thanks for the colloquy.

[EdSherry]

Arbarnhart, I'd be happy to move the thread over to "Theory" (I agree it fits better there), but I don't know how. John or Scott, can you do that? -- Ed

[jmcgann]

I have a couple of questions for you. First is, do you see harm in learning from the Cochran book as an intro and then trying other picking patterns? In other words, does it teach a bad habit or teach a technique that can be tweaked to sound better? I bought the book largely due to a glowing review in Mandolin Magazine.

The only harm is that the definition of crosspicking as i see it and as defined by decades of useage isn't always followed, so I feel the title of the book somewhat misrepresents the concept. This is IMHO and YMMV etc. I think Andy's Jesse book (and Russ Barenberg's Clarence White book) very clearly explains what is and what is not crosspicking.


The second question is about tab. I am with you as far as it not being optimal and I do read notation for a lot of the reasons you give on your site, but I have to agree with the reviewer in the above article that for learning this technique tab makes a lot of sense. It seems that these notes are more rhythm than melody so it is more about the chord you are playing than the note. I have played around with trying alternate chord forms on a couple of the songs but still picking the same strings and most sound pretty good. Anyway, is there an alternative to tab for crosspicking notation?

Yes, and it has been used in classical guitar notation for a long time- if the note has a circle beneath it, it tells you on which string to play the note. Since there is only one location per string, if you know your fingerboard (and you should whether you read tab, notation, or nothing) you don't need tab. If a specific fingering is desired, it can be written in with uncircled numbers. This is neato, because you get the best of both worlds without using so much ink. A few hours with this will make it all clear to anyone who wants to "get the notes" on the mando and reap the rewards of knowing 'what's going on' a little better. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/TabReadersGuideToStandard.pdf)

[arbarnhart]

John,

I think you missed my point on the second question. I have found that I can sometimes substitute a different chord form but pick the same strings and the song will still sound good. <Confession is good for the soul - I first tried it because I was having trouble switching quickly with some of the forms in the book.> When I do that, I am playing entirely different notes. I guess standard notation would have forced me to play it "right", but I think I found something useful. I do agree that knowing notation and note names and scale positions is extremely important. I play weekly with a guitarist who is quite good and he teaches me songs verbally. My other "keep me honest" exercise is to play vocal melody lines from piano/vocal sheet music.

[EdSherry]

I agree with John that standard classical-guitar-style notation CAN show everything that tab shows (and more). #

But I find it both interesting and informative that EVERY book that I'm familiar with that tries to teach cross-picking style uses tab -- including both the Andy Statman McReynolds book that John recommends (I strongly concur) and the Russ Barenberg Clarence White book (which was my first exposure to unlocking the sonic mysteries of crosspicking). #

That may be due to the authors deciding to "dumb it down" to expand their potential market to include those who don't read standard notation, but another possibililty is that the authors believe that tab IS a good way to show what's happening.

And I personally don't know of transcriptions of guitar or mandolin crosspicking in standard notation. #(Though of course that doesn't mean that there aren't any! #I just haven't run across any.)

COULD one show the technique using standard notation? #Of course -- though it would have to show pick direction as well as string choice if it were to address the issues addressed in earlier entries under this thread, and I've rarely seen pick direction notated in classical transcriptions, whether of guitar music or of mandolin music.

Is standard notation PREFERABLE? #That strikes me as a different question. #

In any case, IMHO it's a moot point if tab is available but standard notation is not. #Unless and until someone wants to write out cross-picking transcriptions in standard notiation only, tab (with all its faults) is what we have available.

(John, if I recall correctly, in a different thread about learning to read notation, you mentioned McReynolds picking as one instance in which you found tab helpful in figuring out what was happening.)

Just a thought.

[jmcgann]

Actually, I could argue (or agree) that playing it in a substitute form is at least as good as doing it "accurately" in many ways- unless you are going for a 'record copy', that sort of interpretation can be a real boon.

Any chord symbol, to me, is more of an implication of possible note combinations rather than "a D is a D and you play it here"- there are many ways to get the sound of a D chord across, and the more you know, the more you can use, and that is fun (when you aren't overwhelmed by the many possibilities, which I certainly was at first).

[jmcgann]

Here is a .pdf I use in my Bluegrass Guitar Lab at Berklee to teach crosspicking. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/berklee/ninelbhammer.pdf)

Getting guitar and mandolin students fluent with standard notation, even in the music school environment at Berklee, is like pulling teeth...unless they are crossover fiddle players, who tend to learn to read early on. Our guitar and mandolin "heritage" has been mostly tab based since the late '70's or so, much to our detriment IMHO.

It really is cool once you get the reading thing together though, because with a combined sense of harmony (chordal understanding), rhythmic understanding (being able to groove at different tempos) the doors REALLY open up in a big way for one's creativity to take over and deal with the information in a way that is limited only by the musician's imagination.

Moreso than tab #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[howbahmando]

Guitar players (and there's a lot more of them than mandolin players) have been clamoring to get the Oak Clarence White book republished for decades w/no luck. #

Just buy the Homespun video. #It tells you all you need to know & puts a buck or two in Jesse's pocket.

[EdSherry]

John, thanks for the pdf of your Berklee lesson. Good stuff there.

[arbarnhart]

Getting slightly off topic, but the abundance of guitar tab is actually a good reason to read notation if you play mandolin. I like playing rock and blues in adition to other styles and there is not much of that for mando out there. I have downloaded a few TEF files for guitar and then looked at the generated notation (you can turn that on in TabView) to learn a few riffs. I should have been able to pick them up by ear, but that's another story...

[jmcgann]

I have gotten no reply from Music Sales. It's a shame that those great books are unavailable for people. Maybe we should just send the .pdf around and send Andy Statman $2 a pop (I'm sure that's a better royalty than Oak ever paid!) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[Dan Cole]

I'll shoot them a note this weekend about the pdf.. Haven't had a chance yet with work.

Concur, if everyone paid Andy a couple bucks maybe that' would work. We'll see.

Also Maybe they (OAk)could post it on a site. if you wamt it you pay a couple bucks and download a copy. JUst like on I tunes.

[Jeroen]

There are some great ultra-basic John Moore exercises for accurate cross string picking on the Mel Bay site in an article by Joe Carr. You will hear Chris Thile use lots of this kind of movements.

http://www.melbay.com/mandolinsessions/dec03/moore.html

[Peter Hackman]

Sometimes I try to imitate the kind of shuffle that
fiddler use, with double stops on 1,2,4,5,etc,
e.g. bb+e (g and d strings)
on 1,2,4,5, c (a strings) on 3,6, etc.


Seems I can do this convincingly using alternate
strokes. It doesn't quite have the effortless flow of
true crosspicking over 3 strings, but it makes a lot
of noise!

[jmcgann]

Good news, friends:
==============

Dear Mr. McGann,

I have been asked to reply to your inquiry to Denise Maurin.

We are presently looking into doing small reruns of a number of long
out-of-print Oak titles. I will add your request to the list as this series
was a favorite of mine and it is nice to see someone else championing it.

I will let you know when we have made a decision, which I would think would
be in the next couple of months.


Regards,

Dan Earley
Production Manager

Music Sales Corporation
257 Park Avenue South
New York, NY 10010
Tel: 212-254-2100
Fax: 212-254-2013
Email: de@musicsales.com

www.musicsales.com

==========

a few kind emails of encouragement might help Dan prove there is a hungry market...

[Dan Cole]

I have ask permission to reproduce the book as a PDF and distribute free of charge if they decide not to reprint. Hopefully they will reprint and everone will be able to enjoy!

Dan