One year with mando, hardly any progress

[Bob1300]

It seems to be the pick action. At slow speed (20%)I can work through tabs reasonably well. But that's not music. At any faster speed, the pick gets tangled up in the strings and I'm done for the day.

- Am using a 1.0 thickness, not playing on the point but the round edge or the sides. Trying to vary it to find the right spot.
- Bought instruction DVD's from Bush, Thile, Baldassari, Huckabee, etc. ...Huckabee mentions how to attack the string downward into the next string, but that doesn't seem to work. Nobody else identifies with beginner issues.

Listening to kids who've played for 2 days or the pros on recordings - you can't even HEAR the pick hitting the strings; everyone's just sailing along effortlessly smooth as butter at all speeds.

Frustrated. Any advice on how to proceed?

[cooper4205]

i'd get some one-on-one lessons, maybe some one can point out whats wrong and help you correct it that way. i'm a beginner myself and would be lost without lessons. honestly, if i didn't have him giving me direction i know i wouldn't have progressed as quickly as i have.

also, John McGann (www.johnmcgann.com) has a great website that gives lots of understandable and easily applicable tips for guitar and mando playing in general and especially picking techniques. hope that helps, i know some of the more experienced around here will be able to help you more directly. just keep your ears (or eyes i guess) open around here and you'll eventually get it down. good luck!

[jim_n_virginia]

Bob I can't even tell you how much working with a metronome has helped my playing.

I didn't even have to buy one. I use http://www.metronomeonline.com/ and I practice fiddle tunes, scales, exercises etc. at a very slow pace and fight that urge to crank it up.

Just keep practicing fiddle tunes or whatever at a slow easy pace and concentrate more on hitting every note cleanly and perfectly.

The speed will come on it's own eventually when your fingers develope the muscle memory.

good luck http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Ella Meno]

Bob:

I agree if you can find a good one on one teacher, he/she might be able to identify a problem you're doing that you're not even aware of.

Remember broad pick strokes. If your pick's gettin' all tangled up in the strings it sounds as though you're not loose enough in your pick stroke.

Also, somebody gave me a couple of mando picks because I mentioned that I just use regular guitar picks and I personally don't like them. You absolutely can hear the pick hitting the string and it's just not something I prefer.

Good luck. I've been playing about 2 years now and I love it, you will too! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[adgefan]

I know exactly how you feel! I've been playing about 2 and a half years now and the first year was really hard work and a continual struggle. Something "clicked" after about 18 months, and over the last year I have made so much progress.

What I did was:

- had some lessons. You don't necessarily need to get regular, long-term tuition, but just something to push you in the right direction.

- played with others. Get to sessions or find a picking buddy nearby. Even if you can't join in at first this is the perfect way to find out where you should be heading with your playing.

- concentrated solely on right hand technique. I spent weeks and weeks doing nothing but making sure I was playing with correct alternating pick strokes. Once this clicked into place, everything suddenly became so much easier, I could play cleaner and faster and finally join in at sessions. A year ago I was told my playing was "sloppy". A couple of months ago, I was told by someone you could consider a master of mandolin technique that my right hand was near perfect. I'm rather proud of that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

- learned tunes *properly*. By that I mean, splitting tunes down into groups of phrases and measures and learning each bit perfectly so it can be played without the sheet music or tab. Then play along with recordings or something like Band in a Box so playing the tune becomes instinctive. The first year I was playing I'd just sit and play from the tab. I didn't realise that I was stopping, starting, slowing down, speeding up etc. until I went to jams and realised I couldn't join in. And when learning tunes, start off with something achievable. I found that basic versions of fiddle tunes were the best thing to learn.

- got a new mandolin. I was playing a PacRim mando, nothing wrong with it really, but when I upgraded I suddenly found myself unable to put the thing down. I did nothing but play that thing for months. My old mandolin was ok, but it didn't encourage me to play. Obviously this is the expensive option http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Best of luck. I know how frustrating it is in that first year or so. It will get easier if you put in the effort. It's hard work but you'll get there!

[Martin Jonas]

Getting a teacher, even if only for a couple of hours of fire-fighting, is a good idea. Difficult to say from what you've written what the problem is, but I'd guess at right-hand issues and/or timing.

For timing, a metronome is great, as is playing together with others. Doesn't matter if they're any good, doesn't matter what instrument, just keeping time with each other's rhythm is invaluable practice.

For right-hand technique, it's hard to overemphasise the importance of a loose pick hold and a loose wrist. Make sure you use a wide swing. The idea is to let the momentum of the hand carry the tip of the pick evenly through both strings in mid-swing, rather than actively pushing the pick through the strings. If your pick hold is loose enough, the pick will just gently bounce off the first string, then bounce back in place for the second string. Finally, don't dig in too deep: hold the pick quite close to the tip and don't let the tip travel more than a millimetre or two below the plane of the strings. I prefer to play shallow enough that I can easily play above the 12th fret without any danger of hitting the fretboard with the pick. You may want to consider doing some exercises on the open G string: start out playing very slow deliberate downstrokes (half notes). Start your swing well above the G-string (a good inch, say) and carry through the swing on a downward curve until the pick comes to rest against the D-string (that's called a "rest stroke" technique). After doing that for quite some time double the speed, still all downstrokes (quarter notes), then after having done that for some while double the speed again with alternating pick strokes (eighths). Make sure you stay in time, make sure you are very conscious of the swing and the pick hold. Shift your picking position slowly up and down the string and note how tone changes as you move toward the bridge or towards the 12th fret. At a later stage, you may want to double speed again (for 16th notes) and then again, which if you can do it smoothly should give you a good measured tremolo, but that's really for later once you're comfortable with your basic downstrokes and upstrokes.

Martin

[JGWoods]

It sounds like a lesson is in order. You don't want to be struggling doing the wrong things because you will be building bad habits into muscle memory, so you need to have someone look at what you are doing and make sugeestions that will help you to go in the right direction- holding the pick in an appropriate way, arm and wrist doing normal playing movements, holding the instrument correctly, and having a playable instrument.
If you have that stuff working it still might take a couple of years before it comes together with any speed. Best to play slowly aiming for good tone, later speed will come on its own.
Don't quit. Enjoy what you have accomplished so far.

[mythicfish]

Martin is right on the money with his advice. I have seen many long-time,fairly proficient pickers who have awful
pick technique. Many folk make the mistake of attacking the strings with a motion which uses only the thumb and forefinger instead the wrist and (to a lesser degree) forearm. They may think that they are achieving accuracy, but it's just wasted motion. IMO, the best musicians make it look easy , seldom brake a sweat, and hardly ever drop a pick.

Curt

[adgefan]

Many folk make the mistake of attacking the strings with a motion which uses only the thumb and forefinger instead the wrist and (to a lesser degree) forearm.
That's what I do! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I had no idea I was doing it until it was pointed out to me - I thought I was moving my wrist. Turns out that I write in the same way so it's some deeply ingrained action and not necessarily "poor technique". I have been told by someone who knows about these things that since it works for me it is quite ok to play this way. He also told me that "good technique" is anything that allows you to play cleanly, quickly and accurately without injuring yourself. The actual physical motion involved will be different for everybody.

[Dan Margolis]

These are all good, time-tested suggestions. #Thinking in terms of phrases (I tell students, 'a phrase is to a song as a sentence is to a paragraph. #It's a complete musical thought.'). #Also, find a decent teacher. #I took one lesson from Roland White when I was in Nashville. #Nothing was written down, yet I have benefitted greatly from that lesson. #Also, focus on the exact notes where you stumble. #Usually every note in a phrase is not messed up. #It's often the transition between two notes that has a kind of domino effect, wrecking the subsequent notes. #Correct the stumble, and the phrase will start to flow. #I hope this helps. #Dan http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Keith Erickson]

Bob,

I'm also going to recommend taking lessons. I was playing for 2 years and learned a lot on my own. However after just 1 mandolin lesson, I figured out that I picked up a lot of bad habits that needed to be broken.

My teacher listened to how I was playing and he made the appropriate recommendations, showed me exercises and assigned practice lessons.

It's time and money well spent http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wishing you all the best mandolin success...

[Tighthead]

Whenever I'm frustrated on a certain phrase of a tune, I take a step back and work slowly through the scales with alternating pick strokes, focusing on getting each note clean, gradually working up speed. This usually helps me a lot. That was advice from my teacher. I'm not very good yet (only seriously playing 5 months or so) but taking lessons has been the difference--both in making progression as well as having fun.

Fiddle tunes a lot of fun for me to play and my teacher says that fiddle tunes are a good way to practice scales only a lot more fun.

[Dan Margolis]

It is important to make sure that your technique is correct, that's why a teacher is good, even if only for a few lessons. #This stuff takes time. #I read about guitarist Frank Vignola (who is a stupendous player) teaching himself to strum Django style--super fast, clean, hummingbird's wings style strumming. #He said that he practiced that one technique for a solid year, 15 minutes a day (over 90 hours total), to get it down. #And did he ever! Dan http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[John Flynn]

Only a year? Heck, I went 10 years with hardly any progress! The last five years I have been making progress. My two cents:
> Learn to enjoy the journey and not worry about the destination.
> Keep playing, and playing regularly, no matter what.
> Find a kind of music your really, really like and don't assume it's one you're familiar with right now or one of the "obvious choices."
> Play with other people and in front of audiences, as much as you can.
> Get into fiddle tunes, as was already mentioned. This was a big turning point for me.
> Get a good instructor, but if you find an instructor you don't enjoy or isn't getting you where you want to go, move on and find another.

[arbarnhart]

I am not much over a year myself. I have a really patient friend/neighbor who plays the guitar. He plays very well and knows the music and calls out the chords and walks me through melody notes. I keep a chord chart handy and I just have to know where the notes are for melody. I have learned the chord patterns so that I can go from key and pattern (like "standard 12 bar" or "fast five") to play rhythm and mostly know what notes will work in a lead pattern, but I can't always keep up getting things right. So I work on getting it right but keep time whether I have the chord fingered right or not and whether the pick is making a racket or not. I think I have the mental part ahead of the physical dexterity part (but that's coming along). When you are working with tab, it's all about the dexterity and it is far more frustrating when that's not quite there. If you can find someone to play with and use chord patterns and notes instead of tab (I do also read notation; if you don't, check out John McGann's excellent resource (http://www.johnmcgann.com/TabReadersGuideToStandard.pdf)) I think you will improve faster.

[kww]

Another thing is to have realistic expectations. If this is your first year on your first instrument, try going and listening to your local sixth-grade elementary school band, and judge your progress by that.

[Avi Ziv]

First of all - think about where you were on day one and where you are now - not so bad after all!

So

Yesterday I took my first kayak rolling lesson. "Cool", you say, "but what has that got to do with my mandolin problem?".

I like to always be a beginner in some area of life, while being more advanced in others. It's a Good thing. Gives you a healthy perspective. I am not a rank beginner in sea kayaks but I've never rolled. While I've watched others doing it with such grace and elegance, it always seemed a complete mystery to me. How could one perform a precise set of well-coordinated and totally-non-intuitive moves while upside down in the water? I took the class with a couple of very experienced qualified teachers who not only debugged every move I made, but came up with interesting and innovative ideas of how to overcome problems when I was stuck. Sure, I've watched the kayak rolling DVD many times. It's just not the same. Some people can learn rolling on their own - but man - what a difference it makes when an expert is working with you one-on-one, supporting you mentally, guiding you, and (in my case) physically. The immediate feedback, and the encouragement was amazing. You can't get that from a DVD and it's so easy to get down and frustrated - which leads to even worse performance.

Get a teacher, even if it was for just a few lessons. You won't regret it.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Avi
p.s oh - I am not rolling completely by myself after one class (few do) but I made a ton of progress and went home with lots of good drills to practice on my own.

[Bertram Henze]

Important factor, viewed in slow motion: some beginners attack the string like a bow-and-arrow system, slowly pushing until string tension gets stronger than pick tension and the string slips off the pick. Does not work for higher speeds, because it is not possible to control the moment of slip. It is better to let the tip of the pick shoot past the string, just barely touching like a bullet ricochets from a branch - less force on the pick, exact timing.

Bertram

[Greg H.]

To expand on some of the suggestions that have been made above, when you first learn a new tune record yourself. Then, after you've been practicing that tune for a month or so record yourself again. If you sit down and listen to the difference between the two you'll probably find yourself plesantly surprised. The development you make day to day is going to be so small that you're not really going to be aware of it, but when you can compare yourself to where you were weeks or months before it becomes much more apparent.

[twaaang]

I find that pick-noise is an irritant only if I'm listening for it. When I'm not, it's just part of the background. -- Paul

[otterly2k]

Avi-- I'm glad you didn't get stuck for long!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dan Margolis]

My final 2 cents. These previous posts are great--music is a state of mind. One other thought. Play melodies, even non-fiddle tune melodies. Even simple melodies. I find that often folks cannot play melodies very well. It's a fundamental way to sing through your instrument. And, a lot of great solos are melodies restated and embellished.

[Keith Owen]

I have a real stupid question, forgive me please.

What makes a fiddle tune a fiddle tune?

[Bob1300]

Thank you all for your comments so far. Will be going through every suggestion. PS- I'm familiar with bluegrass timing after playing banjo for years and wrote a couple of instruction books. But mandolin requires more precision in the single string work and as I said, it's frustrating to try and change gears.

[John Flynn]

What makes #a fiddle tune a fiddle tune?
Well, this may sound flip, but it really is the definition. It is a tune that is traditionally played on the fiddle. The body of music we generally refer to as fiddle tunes is primarily, but not exclusively, rural dance tunes with Anglo-American origins that follow an AABB pattern, although there are plenty of exceptions. It's like the old saying, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." (or hear it in this case) It encompasses most of the tunes in Celtic and Old-time music and a lot of Bluegrass music, but not all of it.

[gnelson651]

Getting a teacher is only half the battle, the other is getting a GOOD teacher!

Case in point. My daughter, Shelby, plays violin/fiddle and has been going to the same teacher for about two years. This particular teacher was OK and was able to get my daughter through her auditions for a performing arts high school, honors orchestra and Las Vegas Youth Orchestra. And my daughter was able to get into all of these with her guidance.

But Shelby was not satisfied with this teacher. She is disorganized and didn't help my daughter in areas she requested help. So this week, we started with a different teacher. I sat in on the first lesson and I was surprise at the difference in the level of instruction. First, she asked my daugther her short-term and long-term goals (what she wants to accomplish her junior year and on into college). Second, she corrected her bowing technique, which was sloppy (something her other teacher never addressed). Third, she teaches music theory along with her lessons. Last, she gave Shelby assignments to work on to start moving toward her goals. Not just songs as the other teacher assigned.

The moral of this story, find a teacher that will teach you what you want, not what they want to teach you. And a teacher who will help you accomplish those goals.

I am self-taught because I have yet to find a teacher I've been impress with. I want a teacher who plays the mandolin as their main instrument, not a piano or guitar teacher who teaches mandolin "on the side."

I've been playing mandolin for about 2 1/2 years. For me, the first year was my fastest progress. Now, I feel like I've stalled and not improving much. But I continue to work on my right hand technique as well was my left hand technique(This is something you will work on for the rest of your mandolin experience). I take it one day at a time and see small improvements along the way.

Just stay with it and you will start to see and hear the results if you follow the good suggestions that have been offerred so far.

[Bertram Henze]

What makes a fiddle tune a fiddle tune?
Any tune style named after an instrument often makes use of special features of that instrument, i.e. the tune is easiest to play on that instrument, fits into the frequency range of that instrument, or the tune contains phrases made to sound best with that instrument, or the instrument happened to be the one played by the composer. So fiddle tunes are good for mandolin because of the similar tuning, i.e. what is easy on a fiddle often is easy on a mandolin, too.

I don't really know how to recognise a fiddle tune, but I recognise most Irish pipe jigs because every line seems inevitably to end with a daa-dela-daa on one note.

Bertram