Huge instrument auction [Archive]

allenhopkins

Jul-09-2006, 10:51pm

Apparently Howie Banfield is conducting a major vintage instrument eBay auction. 10 vintage Gibson guitars (J-45, J-185, J-200 etc.), and 10 mandolin family, including a Loar.
Here's a link:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Gibson-guitars-and-Gibson-mandolins_W0QQitemZ130005639720QQihZ003QQcategoryZ 10179Q

QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Instrument auction</a>

Nine days left on a ten-day listing, bidding around $30K already... Exciting! Who's in?

lkb3rd

Jul-10-2006, 12:18am

Holy Cow! I can't wait to see what6 this gets if it goes

Professor PT

Jul-10-2006, 12:41am

If you ask me, this is the dumbest way to auction off these instruments. He'd get more if they were done individually. Who has the money to buy them all? With Loars going for over a hundred grand, this auction will never meet reserve given the enormous amount of cash needed to make it.

pettyman

Jul-10-2006, 5:42am

NOt only that - but how much is he going to have to pay ebay for listing and final price fees - ouch!!!!

AlanN

Jul-10-2006, 5:53am

The seller is an experienced collector. He knows what he is doing. Why do people on this board frequently feel the obligation to question a seller's motivation? I say good luck.

John Rosett

Jul-10-2006, 6:05am

i thought maybe i'd sell my house so i could bid, but i don't think i'd have enough....

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 7:45am

This auction won't last long. It is in violation of the listing rules and will get pulled soon. You cannot list significantly different items in one listing.

Jul-10-2006, 7:46am

Howie has been around a while I'm sure he knows what he is doing. Don't assume the eBay listing fees for a high value item will be the same as they are for a normal listing. That auction has a reserve and I'm sure it's set very high.

Actually Jerry you can list a collection with no problems. These items really aren't different, to eBay they are all musical instruments.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 7:55am

They are significantly different and belong in different categories. eBay has very strict rules with regards to listing collections.

I work with eBay and can get an official ruling if you want one.

Jul-10-2006, 8:20am

Have them give me a call, they know the number.

Knowing Howie he didn't go into it blind, then again knowing Howie maybe he's looking at it like it's free advertising. This same auction is being discussed on four different websites that I frequent now. If he gets a seller and doesn't have to pay eBay anything I'm sure he'll be happy with that too.

grandmainger

Jul-10-2006, 8:21am

Jerry, I can't find anything in the listing policies for sellers (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-ov.html) prohibiting the sale of a collection. Selling a car and mando would obviously be a problem because they are completely unrelated, but here, they're string instruments... I'm not sure how ebay could say that a rule has been broken...

Jul-10-2006, 8:22am

Jerry's getting a ruling.

Jim Garber

Jul-10-2006, 8:47am

Why do people on this board frequently feel the obligation to question a seller's motivation?
Why do people on this board frequently feel the obligation to question a poster's comments on a seller's motivation?

Better you should ask, why do we feel the obligation to talk about mandolins or... anything? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

AlanN

Jul-10-2006, 8:54am

With comments like the above, it's no wonder many of the veterans have chosen to give this board up.

It's one thing to constructively talk mandolins, it's another thing entirley to question financial motivation, financial health, personal reasons for selling, etc.

Jul-10-2006, 9:02am

It's official, I bid on the collection. I didn't make the reserve. I'm a bit disappointed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jim Garber

Jul-10-2006, 9:08am

Reserve must be around $300,000 by my estimates.

Jim

Jul-10-2006, 9:16am

I was guessing that range myself. I'm waiting to see a notice that the auction ended early with a Buy it now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 9:17am

It's official, I bid on the collection. I didn't make the reserve. I'm a bit disappointed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Maybe I should bid and hope that I get lucky with a Second Chance Offer.

BTW, I sent the listing question to eBay and I'll post a response when I hear back from them. Yes, they are all musical instruments and could be considered a collection in that sense. The policy in question is whether the items are significantly different to warrant separate listings. I'm sure you would agree the value of the items vary significantly too.

grandmainger

Jul-10-2006, 9:21am

I was guessing that range myself. I'm waiting to see a notice that the auction ended early with a Buy it now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
This auction could open up a brand new range of opportunities for our scammer friends! Imagine second-chance offers in your inbox, priced at $200,000 !!!
Payment by cashier's cheque for $300,000, and you only need to send $50,000 to Switzerland via Western Union! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Jul-10-2006, 9:24am

I'm telling you now, I'm not going to fall for that second chance offer thing. I felt safe making my bid. Mrs. Moon however was having a cow when I did it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

markishandsome

Jul-10-2006, 10:43am

Certainly an unusual way to do business. However this goes down, I bet the high-roller collector who winds up with this collection will sell it off piece be piece at a considerable profit.

Jul-10-2006, 11:15am

Maybe, I'm pretty sure it will end up outside the US and never be seen again.

By the way, I'm in for 50 grand and still didn't hit the reserve. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I'm shocked.

Steven Stone

Jul-10-2006, 12:03pm

[Certainly an unusual way to do business. However this goes down, I bet the high-roller collector who winds up with this collection will sell it off piece be piece at a considerable profit. ]

Maybe, but probably not.

My impression is that most of the stuff in the auction "has issues" as we like to say in the vintage biz. Howie is no dummy. He feels this is the best way to cash out of these items with the least amount of brain damage.

I suspect he is right on.

[By the way, I'm in for 50 grand and still didn't hit the reserve.

I'm shocked. ]

Yeah , why?

$50K is way below where I suspect the reserve to be. $50K doesn't even get you all the non-loar mandos and the J-200.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

Jul-10-2006, 12:11pm

I think I said that with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek.

mandophil(e)

Jul-10-2006, 12:22pm

DiegoMoon:

You mentioned that this topic was being discussed on 4 other sites. I wonder if you'd be willing to share which ones? I see the topic on the UMGF site, but where else?

OregonMike

Jul-10-2006, 12:58pm

Interesting that there are 7 A's in the lot and not single snakehead or blacktop example.

(I'm sure this isn't his whole collection but it got me thinking what I would collect if I was building a mini-museum like this lot).

Also amazing that all of the original hard shell cases have the keys. Mine walked off years ago.

Ken Waltham

Jul-10-2006, 1:10pm

I agree that most/all of these pieces have issues, they will not bring a major profit to the potential buyer.
Free advertising is a more likely scenario, IMHO.

mrmando

Jul-10-2006, 1:19pm

I felt safe making my bid. Mrs. Moon however was having a cow when I did it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Did it jump over her?

fatt-dad

Jul-10-2006, 1:28pm

My suspecion is that the auction will never be consumated. Rather, he will find all sorts of folks interested in "this one" or "that one". When the auction ends (i.e., figuring that the reserve is too high to be reached), he will then have an opportunity to deal with those that want one or the other. There is no doubt that he's getting exposure from one auction and who knows, if it goes to his reserve, may even make a single "payday" victory.

Interesting. . . . .

f-d

mrmando

Jul-10-2006, 1:30pm

Anyone else notice anything about the listing date? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jim Garber

Jul-10-2006, 1:46pm

Anyone else notice anything about the listing date? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
All right... I don't get it... Jul-19-06? What is the joke?

Jim

mrmando

Jul-10-2006, 1:53pm

All right... I don't get it... Jul-19-06? What is the joke?
That's the date it ENDS. I'm talking about the date he LISTED it.

Jim Garber

Jul-10-2006, 2:03pm

WSM's Loar date?

Jim

mrmando

Jul-10-2006, 2:32pm

Ding!

Surely it's no accident that Howie chose July 9 to put up an auction including a Loar.

Bob Denton

Jul-10-2006, 2:45pm

I'll bet he's trying to move this before the next hurricane. Insurance on this collection must be phenominal! Especially living so close to the water.

That's one reason I left the "Sunshine State"

Cya!

Smyers

Jul-10-2006, 2:51pm

If I had $300K lying around, I'd be in then relist them individually! #Less the Loar, of course! Not the $300K will even come close.

kww

Jul-10-2006, 2:55pm

Jim Garber

Jul-10-2006, 3:02pm

If I had $300K lying around, I'd be in then relist them individually! Less the Loar, of course! Not the $300K will even come close.
Frankly, I would be surprised if he has the reserve that low (!)

OTOH I find that eBay is strange esp on desirable vintage instruments. Often enough the really high end ones don't sell at all, even below retail prices. People are looking for serious bargains and a knoweldgeable seller would not accept the super-low prices.

Then again, there are also those quirks, like that $15.5K F4 a few months ago. Hard to figure.

Jim

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 3:30pm

Jerry Byers: If you work with Ebay, can you explain why the infamous <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/WARRANTY-NEW-RED-Acoustic-Bluegrass-Country-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ290006277370QQihZ019QQcatego

ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">RED mandolin</a> (.01 minimum bid, 4.99 "Buy it now", with 29.99 shipping) doesn't violate the "fee avoidance" policy?
I can submit the question to them, but I don't see how it's fee avoidance. It generally cost $30 to ship a mandolin. Granted, a company can probably ship it cheaper, and this is probably where they are making their money. I doubt eBay would touch this one, but I can ask.

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 3:39pm

I haven't had any response from the Pinks, but the general consensus is that the listing is legit and doesn't violate any listing policies. However, several folks are scratching their head as to why it was listed that way.

It was pointed out that a listing of that value has NO BUYER PROTECTION. In fact, Buyer Protection is limited to $175 ($200 plus $25 processing fee). The seller wouldn't be able to use PayPal because of the potential cost, and therefore, no Buyer Protection is afforded through that service.

It's strange though because I have seen eBay pull other listings like this.

kww

Jul-10-2006, 4:15pm

I don't know what they could even put on it for strings that wouldn't cost them 4.99. It has to be fee avoidance, because they lose money on the sales price of the goods, and only profit from the shipping.

mrmando

Jul-10-2006, 4:23pm

Surely it's no accident that Howie chose July 9 to put up an auction including a Loar.
Well, I heard from Howie, who says the listing date is only a coincidence. And here I thought he and I were both so clever...

P.S. Anyone familiar with the Loar in this auction?

allenhopkins

Jul-10-2006, 9:45pm

Jeez, I'm glad I started this thread! Does seem to me an odd way to sell such a variegated collection. On the other hand, Elderly a while ago was selling, as a collection, various resonator instruments from one of the Dopyera brothers. And of course with eBay you reach the maximum number of potential buyers world-wide.
But speculating on the seller's tactical choices and motivation seems fairly pointless. Suffice it to say that twenty primo instruments, including the Grail of Grails, a Loar F-5, are presumably available, all at once, to someone with deep, deep pockets.
I think the thing that's a bit bothersome, is that selling in this way takes the average musician/collector out of the game. I'll never have the bucks for a Loar, but might have taken a flier at the mandola or one of the A-4's. Someone speculated that the collection will go overseas, which may well mean that few or none of the instruments will be played in this country again.
A collector here in Rochester died a couple years ago, and one of our best-known local instrument dealers liquidated his collection for his widow. Almost all of it went to Europe or Japan. Makes me think "there goes a Loar that we'll never see on stage, or hear on a recording."

Charles Johnson

Jul-10-2006, 10:09pm

I believe that is Loar #72799. Its the one that went through a flood, the seams came apart, and was then reglued and partially refinished by Ross Tigen in FL. I know that Howie purchased it and had the work done, and the last I heard he still owned it.

Howie is no dummy - this is an amazing amount of publicity for the cost of a listing fee. I only know of a few people who can pony up the $$ for the whole collection. As others have speculated here, I surmise it will not meet reserve and he will deal on individual pieces.

Very clever, IMHO.

Charles Johnson

Jim Garber

Jul-10-2006, 10:15pm

On the other hand, Elderly a while ago was selling, as a collection, various resonator instruments from one of the Dopyera brothers.
There is a point there in selling those Dopyera instruments as a collection: they were all associated with the maker and the whole collection has some historic value as a grouping.

I suppose that it is possible that this will be bought by someone overseas, but I think the number of super-rich instrument collectors has dwindled and I think if Howie's colelction were to sell, it is just as likely to go to someone in the US as anywhere.

In any case, it will be interesting to see what happens. I predict nothing and he will sell them separately.

Jim

OlderThanWillie

Jul-10-2006, 10:22pm

Can anyone tell me who is Howie Banfield? Is he a dealer, a collector, or http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? I see his Ebay bids on many high end instruments.

MML

Jul-10-2006, 10:34pm

Howie is all that, and a very interesting person http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

jim simpson

Jul-11-2006, 9:16am

Here is a recording listing Howie and his sister:

HOWIE & BARB BANFIELD w/ KENT COUNTY PICKERS: Late Nights in Alberta (H & B Banfield)
Late Nights In Alberta: Dalyrumple Records - HB 992
Cam Marshman - Randy Foreman - Anne Lederman - Walt Maynard - David Essig - Ken Stewart - Wayne Smith - Allan Dill
Toronto, On
Produced by David Essig - 1979

jefflester

Jul-11-2006, 8:55pm

I believe that is Loar #72799. Its the one that went through a flood, the seams came apart, and was then reglued and partially refinished by Ross Tigen in FL. I know that Howie purchased it and had the work done, and the last I heard he still owned it.
#72799 - for reference (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2576)

Jim Garber

Jul-12-2006, 9:41am

I just love this photo.

Jim

bradeinhorn

Jul-12-2006, 4:38pm

not a snakehead in the bunch....tss...

Jul-12-2006, 5:31pm

Give Howie a call and tell them you'll take the whole thing at his price if he throws in a snakehead. I think he'll go for it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Charles Johnson

Jul-14-2006, 9:51pm

How cool! I just placed a legitimate bid for $100,000 on eBay!
Charles

Jerry Byers

Jul-14-2006, 10:35pm

Maybe I should bid $110,000.

John M. Riley

Jul-14-2006, 11:25pm

one of you guys is gonna #### your britches full if you actually get past the reserve and win

kudzugypsy

Jul-15-2006, 6:22am

so, any clue as to why Howie is selling this collection in peticular? its obviously part of a much larger collection he has. just curious, as i know he KNOWS what he is doing, so is something else out there that he is getting into. is it a certain instrument on the market he is after (like a D-45?)
just curious - gibson acoustics are hot right now - maybe he thinks its time - i'm just as confused as everyone as to why he threw a LL and some A's into the mix - this is almost a collection only a dealer (like charles) would have a perfect use for.
whoever gets this - i'm in for the 30's gibson jumbo! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jul-15-2006, 7:39am

$50,000.00 is my limit. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

You can cancel your bid if you accidentily enter too much by the way.

I think this is advertising for Howie.

Steven Stone

Jul-15-2006, 8:36am

[gibson acoustics are hot right now]

Gibsons have been "hot" for the last three or four years.

But they're still cheaper than Martins. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Jul-15-2006, 9:48am

But they're still cheaper than Martins.
In my book there's a reason for that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Glassweb

Jul-15-2006, 11:38am

Howie usually lets go of "lesser" stuff to acquire the "best" stuff... which is normal I guess. Just clearing out the woodpile to acquire something special no doubt. Or maybe just pay some bills!

Links

Jul-15-2006, 12:48pm

I wonder if anyone has sat down to figure what the legitimate value of all the instruments is and come up with a "reasonable" quantity discount price? That would be difficult without seeing and handling all of the instruments, so you would almost have to come up with the "quantity discount" price less another amount for a "fudge" factor.

Sorry, I'm starting to give myself a headache!

Jim Garber

Jul-15-2006, 1:00pm

I figured quickly that $300k was approx individual retail so $200K would be a "deal."

Jim

jim simpson

Jul-15-2006, 4:42pm

Any guesses as to the reserve?

Strange1

Jul-15-2006, 6:07pm

You notice there is not a lefty in the bunch (if I am correct)?

CC

Links

Jul-15-2006, 11:20pm

Jim:

I'm guessing $225,000. If I knew that was right, I would bid $224,500 and pretend like I was disgusted that I didn't meet the reserve.

jim simpson

Jul-16-2006, 12:32pm

Links,
That sounds like a good strategy! You would probably get 2nd offers from others claiming to have the same collection for sale.

Bob Sayers

Jul-16-2006, 4:56pm

Or you would discover to your horror that the reserve was actually $224,000!!!

Bob

Links

Jul-19-2006, 9:40am

Yeah, and my wife would be filing papers!

Jul-19-2006, 2:35pm

With 11 minutes to go in the auction I made my final offer of $100,200.00 and still didn't hit the reserve damnit. I thought for sure I had it this time... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jul-26-2006, 7:32am

Am I a lucky guy or what? I got a Second chance offer for my last bid. I can own that Loar and all the rest for $100,200.00 US. All I have to do is wire the money via Western Union to Howie's uncle in Italy...

tiltman

Jul-26-2006, 12:56pm

whoa...shock and awe
kirk

f5loar

Jul-26-2006, 11:40pm

At least that offer didn't come from Howie's cousin Louie in Lebenon.

sgarrity

Jul-27-2006, 1:06pm

So I'm curious.....what do you guys think that particulat Loar is worth?

Links

Jul-29-2006, 6:07pm

Gee Diego, Howie must have had two sets because I got the same offer from his cousin in Rangoon,Burma. I would send the money, but just bought some land down in Florida.

Jul-29-2006, 6:19pm

Damn it Links, this one is mine, don't you be buyin' it too. That Howie sure has a lot of relatives. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Links

Jul-30-2006, 10:45pm

Heck Diego - go ahead and buy these - I'm going for Robert Johnson's old Gibson guitar for just six million!

Aug-01-2006, 7:50am

Here's an interesting wrinkle. The person with the highest bid on Howie Banfield's big auction has been listing some mandolins. This morning this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Clean-Small-Peghead-Gibson-F-12-Mandolin-1950_W0QQitemZ170014256440QQihZ007QQcategor
yZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">F12</a> popped up and the high bidder is.....

Howie Banfield.

Life is strange, no?

molecan

Aug-01-2006, 12:09pm

Interesting,

Howie is also the current high bidder (at $15K) on that same sellers auction for a Rare Gilchrist F-5 Mandolin with Black Top
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-Gilchrist-F-5-Mandolin-with-Black-Top_W0QQitemZ170013836268QQihZ007QQcategoryZ10
179QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Ra....iewItem</a>

Looks like they are helping each other inflate auction prices..

Darryl Wolfe

Aug-01-2006, 12:29pm

I'll only add that the two know each other well and have done many deals outside of eb**. The seller has a ton of mandos and related, but they have bought from each other on eb** in the past.

Aug-01-2006, 1:10pm

I'll only add that the two know each other well and have done many deals outside of eb**. #The seller has a ton of mandos and related, but they have bought from each other on eb** in the past.
Why am I not shocked? Are either of them selling cars?

Russ Jordan

Aug-01-2006, 1:21pm

[QUOTE]Why am I not shocked? Are either of them selling cars?

actually it appears that the Gilchrist seller is a Chevrolet dealer!

Aug-01-2006, 1:58pm

actually it appears that the Gilchrist seller is a Chevrolet dealer!
I figured as much, thanks.

Moose

Aug-01-2006, 2:16pm

mmmm...., I wonder what he means by THAT!?? - hee.. hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Darryl Wolfe

Aug-01-2006, 2:26pm

[QUOTE]Why am I not shocked? Are either of them selling cars?

actually it appears that the Gilchrist seller is a Chevrolet dealer!
He is..and has one of the largest collections of music instuments and related stuff in the country

Aug-01-2006, 2:37pm

[QUOTE= ]Why am I not shocked? Are either of them selling cars?

actually it appears that the Gilchrist seller is a Chevrolet dealer!
He is..and has one of the largest collections of music instuments and related stuff in the country
He's also a very nice guy to deal with. I sold him a mandolin a few years ago. He didn't want the mandolin, he wanted the case.