Violin with Frets

[BlueMountain]

I like the sound of a fiddle, but I wasn't eager to learn to play to play it from scratch. I'd been thinking that it would be nice to have one with frets, so it would seem more familiar. I spotted one on eBay and thought, why not try it? I can always sell it if I don't like it. So I won the auction. It arrived in the mail last Friday.

My wife plays viola, and I'd tried that, but without much success. This fretted violin was different. Once I figured out the proper tension for the bow and rubbed on some rosin, I was playing songs in minutes. I'm still having to put too much time into remembering the angle of the bow and keeping it from drifting away from where it's supposed to be. However, after less than an hour of playing, I asked my wife play along with me. For half an hour we played duets of country hymns--her with the book, me by ear, switching off melody and harmony. She was shocked by how fast I'd picked it up. Not that I'm good, but I'm not entirely annoying, and I'm improving fast and improvising. And of course the fiddle tunes I play on my mandolins transfer rather easily to the violin!

It's not an expensive violin, but the sound is pretty decent. If you are interested, there's another one up on eBay right now, though it's RED! <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Fretted-Violin-New-Acoustic-Electric_W0QQitemZ200001361305QQihZ010QQcategoryZ3 8108QQssPage
NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Fretted....iewItem</a> I should mention that these have electric pickups, just in case you want to plug in. I've told the seller (who I guess buys Asian violins and puts new fretted fingerboards on them) that he should advertise specifically to mandolin players and only in the mandolin section on eBay. I'll bet there are a bunch of you who would like to give it a try.

[John Craton]

It's also possible to add frets to a standard violin using nylon string. I used to play a viola da gamba in an early music consort that was fretted thus. The effect would be something like the early viols, though you'll be essentially eliminating much possibility of vibrato.

[Elliot Luber]

Since I switched to guitar 30 years ago, that's about the only type of violin I could get a decent note out of today. I can play just about everything I ever played in 12 years of studying violin on Mandolin after just three months of play, but not a single note on violin... not that I would want to go back. It's just frustrating to lose skills. Now I've got to learn all those things that make Mandolin cool. Skills like cross-picking I learned on guitar already, but that's not a mandolin either, and I want to learn Mando. I just bought Andy Statman's Teach Yourself Bluegrass book, and I'm working through that for the nuance. I think I got more out of learning Land Epic Waltz and immitating his style from the Album. Of course he makes it sound deceptively simple. Any other suggestions for learning mando style and skills? Thanks.

[Tom C]

My friend got an electric violin, with frets, and 6 strings tuned as a guitar.
He paid $$ for it and never even used it as he deemed it pretty impracticle.

I can see that, the 6 string mandolin-guitar (our band had a Goldtone copy of the Gibson) was pretty much impossible to play as well. This on the other hand appears to be the same as the mandolin. My biggest problem with fiddle is the bow and not the fingering. That is a world unto itself. With that said, this might be fun to play with. I'm actually considering it. Worst case I'll play it like a mandolin and really get screwed up. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[lindensensei]

This is interesting. #I had petty much decided that the next violin I was going to build would have frets - the thinnest, finest wire I could get, but frets nonetheless. #I don't do any luthier work in the summer down here in Florida, but once I set back up and actually make the fiddle (with frets) I'll post up a pictue. #I've been thinking about this for years and had once even begun the gut/fish line/ fret wrap, but then decided to try and do it right. #I'm too old and fat to get any vibrato anyway.

I'm too old and fat to get any vibrato anyway.
Warn me next time you use a line like that.

Sounds cool, please post the pictures when you get it done.

[farmerjones]

i sure agree that bowing is more obsticle than intonation (frets or lack there of)most newbies work through that in short order. Bowing could take a lifetime.

Let's say you're playing with a capoed guitar. Too tight capos are guilty of pulling a guitars out of tune. Being fretless lets you play in tune with the poorly tuned guitar. B-flat, B natural, E among other keys are easily slid into. Fretless is an advantage not a hindrence.

[Jim Garber]

The arpeggione (http://www.patkop.ch/images/arpeggione%20gross.jpg) is a fretted bowed guitar.

Jim

[jim simpson]

I would lose my temper if I played a violin with frets - perhaps a psaltery would do?

[lindensensei]

I'm not sure. It's just that my fingers and hands ar so large that the constant readjustment for the tiny intevals is generally pretty consuming. I'd like to try to get that exact tone with a lot less effort. It might not work and if not I'll replace the fingerboard with a traditional one. An hour's work.

[farmerjones]

I would lose my temper if I played a violin with frets -
i get it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jenford]

you don't need no stinkin frets on a violin :-)
the bowing is the tricky part as been expressed earlier.
You really use your ears when you play the violin - and your fingers know where to go based on the sound.

best,
jen (awfull fiddler)ford

[chuck.naill]

Here is a tip that helped me on bow technique. Hold the very end of the bow, the part that you twist to tightened the hair. Holding the bow this way, bow the fiddle ( or as the old timers say, pull a bow on a fiddle) If you have sufficient rosen and the strings are clean from excess rosin you will get a very nice mellow tone for your efforts.

One more tip. The bridge must be perpendicular to the top of the instrument. Cork rubbed on the strings will clean them well. Sand paper can rough up the rosin and make it more produtive than just rubbing the hair against the cake.

chuck

[jenford]

love the cork cleaner - and another reason to uncork a bottle of wine ;-)

jen

[Elliot Luber]

The typical error I see beginning violin or fiddle players make is timidity -- fear of putting too much pressure on the bow. It's digging in that makes the sound, even mellow sounds, but this also highlights intonation errors. A kid starting out will make horrible sounds for up to three years before they get these two things down to a point where it sounds sweet. Bowing is easy to learn, hard to master. Fretless fingering on violin is hard to learn, hard to master -- and hard to get back when you're rusty. :-)

[BlueMountain]

Yes, Santiago, exactly right. I forbade my wife to have my kids study violin because I wasn't willing to put up with three years of screeching. (Instead, they play piano, guitar, recorder, etc.--my mom used to make me practice the saxophone in a large closet with a window.) It's true that I can't do vibratos effectively. On the other hand, with the frets I'm hitting the notes accurately from the beginning, and I can play easily play two finger chords--something most violin players don't do very often, though fiddlers do, I think. You're also right about not being afraid to dig in with the bow. I'm doing better at getting the right angle consistently. No way I'd be doing what I'm doing without the frets. I don't plan to become a public fiddler, but it's nice to play with.

[Elliot Luber]

Coffee guy? (BlueMountain), I'm glad you're getting a taste of the bowing world, but it's not quite the real thing. Fiddle and violin have more potential than you'll realize with frets, but I'm sure it's fun and I'd love to try it myself for kicks. Violin players play what we call "doublestops" all the time actually, and we play four-note chords by playing two doublestops in succession, usually empahsizing the second pair of notes. You hear this a lot in emotional gypsy-type music and theatrical violinist/composers like Vivaldi in classical music. Fiddlers sure do some great things with hammering-on doublestops. I actually learned that technique from a classical piece by J.B. Accolay, and it inspired me to look into country music because it ends like a hoedown.

[PaulD]

If I were going to advocate frets for the beginner I would go with the tied frets... much more easily undone if you get the bowing down and want to expand your technique. I'm not an accomplished fiddler by any stretch of the imagination; I find it hard to focus on my intonation and bowing when I'm learning a new tune, and one usually suffers until I nail the other. Still, the things I love about playing fiddle are the relatively infinite sustain and infinite range of notes. A good slide into a note or a good vibrato add an emotional dimension to the music that are unique to the violin. I would feel like I were really robbing the instrument of its potential by putting frets on it. In the end, though, it's about making music and whatever it takes to get you there! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

pd

[ApK]

I think putting frets on a violin changes it into a different instrument. #You're then not playing violin, you're finding some other way to make music with a violin. #I like the violin as it's desgined. #The tone of flesh stopping a string is different than the tone of metal or nylon stopping a string, and while I AM finding learning proper intonation to be a challenge, I'm reveling in that challenge. #I can see how -- one day, with practice -- it can become as Jen said above, that your fingers will know where to go based on the sound, and when that happens, it'll really be YOUR sound.

That being said, I saw a product over on fiddleforum.com that was a removable self-adhesive fret board that you could add to any violin. #Seemed kinda neat.

Bluemountain, go ahead and try that viola or a regular violin for a bit longer in addition to this new fiddle. #You may be suprised.

[maroon]

How do the frets on the violin fingerboard differ from those little red tapes placed on student violins when students are first learing? If you don't know about the little red tapes, what I'm asking is, wouldn't the draw of the frets (other than the novelty factor) be merely to serve as visual (and, to a lesser extent, feel-able) guides for finger placement? But, once the finger is in position, it's not like the fret makes it any easier to play, is it?

[chuck.naill]

How do the frets on the violin fingerboard differ from those little red tapes placed on student violins when students are first learing?

I have been playing a short time, but old time and BG fiddle use slides and double stops. Having frets would take away this dynamic. The tape would not impede as a metal barrier would.

PLaying a fiddle is not hard if you take a few lessons and get around people who play. The problem that I had initally was trying to learn the fiddle from folks that lean toward classical violin style. Old time and Bluegrass Fiddle has a handed down, very individual musical heritage brought over by Irish protestants in the 1700's into these Virgina, Tennessee, Kentucky and Carolina mountains.

My suggestion is to imagine that you are 100 miles from town and you have this fiddle that was your grandfather's that came over from the Unger Valley in Ireland in 1711. People in your farming community want to dance. You have to learn three songs and be able to play for hours. You begin to tinker with simple melodies and tunings. Intonation takes a back seat to rhthymn and timing.

Chuck

[lindensensei]

I think we have reached the point in this discussion where it might become necessary to devide the group and send the groups to different corners. #The idea of frets on a violin is not new, its been around for centuries. #It is probably responsible for the mandolin's existance. #The fact that a non-fretted violin will always have more potential and more beautiful sound is also not in dispute.
# # But if you are 50-60 years old, like the dern instrument and just want to play one... and are having trouble with the intonation and just want a little fun... well as I already stated, I'm making one for myself and think it will be a blast. #I know full well it wont be as good as my others, but it might inspire someone who is too intimidated by the process to pick it up and then maybe someday they will buy one of my Snakeheads. I've already switched from ebony pegs to machines. Maybe frets are the natural evolution. Heck, then maybe if you want to, you can drop it down and begin picking; then you wont need a mando... no, sorry, forget I said that.

[chuck.naill]

But if you are 50-60 years old, like the dern instrument and just want to play one... and are having trouble with the intonation and just want a little fun... well as...

Do what you want, I don't see any opposition here. I am 51 and started playing fiddle 5 months ago. Age is a state of mind, brother. Old people just hate to look bad, children don't care.

chuck

[ApK]

How do the frets on the violin fingerboard differ from those little red tapes placed on student violins when students are first learing? #If you don't know about the little red tapes, what I'm asking is, wouldn't the draw of the frets (other than the novelty factor) be merely to serve as visual (and, to a lesser extent, feel-able) guides for finger placement? #But, once the finger is in position, it's not like the fret makes it any easier to play, is it?
The tape marks are just that, visual marks to help teach you where to put your fingers. #It's your finger holding the string down against the fingerboard that sets the tone. Move your finger slightly in either direction and you slightly change the pitch being produced.

With frets, you press your finger somewhere behind the fret and push the string down on to the fret. #It's the string pressing against the fret that sets the tone. #Move your finger slightly in either direction and the pitch will not change, as the fret always stays right where it is.
Plus the particular sound quality of a string pressing against metal or nylong frets is different than that of a string pressing on flesh and ebony.

If you don't have ready access to a fretted and fretless violin to check it out, then next time you're in a big music shop, go over to the bass section. Try a regular bass guitar like a fender p-bass and then try a fretless bass guitar and you'll hear the difference.

ApK

[jim simpson]

"The tape marks are just that, visual marks to help teach you where to put your fingers. It's your finger holding the string down against the fingerboard that sets the tone. Move your finger slightly in either direction and you slightly change the pitch being produced."

Think about frets on a dobro, they are just markers. I find the action too high though!!

[Zoe]

I play both the violin and mandolin
and always wished i had a violin that had visual marks all the way up- not really frets- but rather somehow inlayed or printed lines representing them

hmm

ciao

zoe

[J.Albert]

Just something of interest I found on this subject through google:
http://www.frettedfiddle.com/

- John

[ApK]

Just something of interest I found on this subject through google:
http://www.frettedfiddle.com/

- John
Yup, that's the thing I saw!

[deltafour1212]

I play the fretted violin and never looked back

I started learning the "devils instrument' at 50, I'm 53 now. Like everyone else, it sounded like I was killing a cat at first. Got better with a few private lessons, DVD lessons and a LOT of YouTube videos. I had no music ability but by developing my ear, muscle memory kicked in with LOTS of practice, I can figure out a song by ear within a few minutes. It's not really that hard to play by ear. I thought you had to have a natural gifted talent to do it. Trust me, If I can do it, ANYONE can do it.

My intonation was getting good but not perfect. Long story short, I bought a violin on Ebay and for only $60 dollars more they would put wired frets on. Total cost, $200.
Took it to a luthier and had it setup for $40. Best $240 I ever spent.

Whoever said you can't do vibrato or slurs on fretted violin has probably never played a fretted violin before. Like anything, you just need to learn the technique. We had 5 fellow musician's who played for years, turn their backs and each were asked which violin was fretted or non fretted when playing the vibrato . Not one person could tell the difference in sound.

You have to ask yourself this. Do you want to play and have fun as soon as possible or take the chance of getting bored, frustrated and quitting? I mean seriously, the majority of us have no illusions of making it to the "big time" and making a career out of it. Most of us like myself, just want to play the songs we like and maybe jam with a few others just for the pure enjoyment of it.

Here's what I learned playing with a fretted violin. I can concentrate just on my bowing and play, perfect intonation every time, vibrato and slurs sound just as you were playing on a fretless fingerboard. It looks cool in my opinion with frets and inlay dots like you see on guitars and mandolins. When you pull out your violin to play people are curious because its looks different than what they are used to seeing, they ask you tons of questions. Even other musicians are curious about it and want to try it out.
Some players even told me they were curious about getting one but were afraid of what their "peers" might think. I guess in their heads, if you have frets that means your not "good" enough to play a fretless in the eyes of other musicians. (AHH peer pressure) .

Like myself, I can switch from mandolin to the violin in a heartbeat without worrying about intonation.

Quit worrying about what others think and the "right" way you should to play. If people thought that with the automobile, we would still be driving steam cars. Like I said before, do you want to play and have fun as fast as you can or do you want to spend years getting good or getting so frustrated you quit before you truly experience the joy and pleasure of playing the "devils instrument" that it gives you.

*stepping off the soap box*

Delta

[Mandobar]

I've played fretted fiddles. No thanks. Half the technique of playing fiddle involves learning how to do all those cool slides.

[Jim Garber]

Hey, if it works for you, go for it! I played in a jam with a guy who plays one as his only fiddle. I didn't try his tho I don't know why I would.

I took up fiddle and mandolin at the same time (about 43 years ago). Each required a different technique but I do much more sliding when playing old time fiddle. Frets would inhibit that for sure. My intonation is decent tho I am sure that some classical folks or others with perfect pitch might cringe. I have a feeling that with frets you are still compromising intonation especially when you switch keys.

[Charles E.]

Seems to me that one would wear out some pretty expensive violin strings with frets pretty quickly.

[vic-victor]

Fretted violins were around for a while in the past. Charles Manby, the English dealer was a promoter of them. They not only sold them, but also suggested everyone modify their old instruments in the new fashion. I wonder how many old fine instruments were butchered that way?
https://animato.com.au/store/products/Manby-Violin-with-Fretted-Fingerboard.html

[Jim Garber]

I am not sure that installing frets would really butcher a fine old violin. I would bet that many of the higher end violins from way back no onger have original parts. The beauty of the design of the violin is how modular it is. I can certainly see how cutting down the body, as were done to some of the original violas, would affect the instruments but frets would just mean that the luthier would replace the fingerboard, right?

[vic-victor]

True, Jim. But still, I woudn't do it on a nice one. Best to keep it as original as possible.

[jesserules]

Fret not! Here's the solution:

http://www.fretlessfingerguides.com/

[darrylicshon]

Mark Wood has made fretted violins for years
http://www.woodviolins.com

[Bertram Henze]

Mark Wood has made fretted violins for years
http://www.woodviolins.com

The coolest idea about those is not the fretted violin, but the strapped violin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h5puR8Z_5k) - how could Stradivari miss out on that?

[Mandobar]

A big part of learning to play violin/fiddle is learning to intonate. While you might gain intonation using a fretted instrument you lose so much of the instrument's unique ability to shape sound and tone. I would think you'd also be using steel strings. That requires a whole different technique, and creates different tone and sounds.

But to each his/her own.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm a big fan of doing what works for you when it comes to making music. I remember my guitar teacher (a thousand years ago or so it seems) having a fit when I'd use my thumb on the low e string because it wasn't the correct way to play. If it was good enough for Chet it was good enough for me. I do understand that changing a fiddle to a fretted instrument might affect one's ability to do certain things but if you never had it before it's hard to miss it.

[multidon]

Off topic, but just curious. Regarding post #5, how exactly does a guest get posting privileges on our forum? I bought only members could do that? I've never seen that in all the years I've been here.

[Michael Neverisky]

...I'd use my thumb on the low e string because it wasn't the correct way to play. If it was good enough for Chet it was good enough for me


In fact, it is impossible to play some of Chet's arrangements without thumb over. It was that technique that enabled thumbpickers to sound like they do.

I'm intrigued by the fretted fiddle. I often call the mandolin a sort-of fretted fiddle... and the fiddle a bowed, fretless mandolin. 8-)

[MikeEdgerton]

Off topic, but just curious. Regarding post #5, how exactly does a guest get posting privileges on our forum? I bought only members could do that? I've never seen that in all the years I've been here.



That was posted by a member who is no longer a member.

[Camp]

You revived a thread that's literally over a decade old hahaha!

Now back on subject, fretted fiddles seem like a semi-interesting gimmick; but I wouldn't personally devote too much time to one. One of the appeals of violin to me is specifically the freedom that comes with being frettless.

[mandroid]

One slow Winter week the local instrument repair shop owner, did that to a pretty basic fiddle..

[Seter]

If I wanted a fretted bowed instrument I'd probably just go for a proper viol de gamba.

[sbhikes]

I bought the stick-on fiddle fretter things for my fiddle. Best thing ever! The "frets" are very minimal. You still have to work on intonation, you can still do slides and all that. You just get a little bit of help. You don't have to be quite so perfect. You get a visual aid, a tactile aid and just a little bit of assistance taking the edge off the difficulty. I still can get a little off on intonation and thus I still have to work at it, but it's not so darned easy to be way off and sounding horrible. The best thing is that taking the edge off the whole intonation issue takes that distraction off the table and lets me work on the bowing part. I never got around to that part of playing the fiddle because I'd always get hung up and unable to move on from intonation.

[Bernie Daniel]

Most of the things violinists tell you about fretted violins is wrong.

I expect because most of them may have never tried to play one. If you go on YouTube and type in "fretted fiddle" or "fretted violin" you can confirm it for youself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA9c2GTn0h4

Mind I do not say that the two instruments are interchangeable just that you can do a lot of great things with a fretted fiddle and it will sound very fiddle like indeed. The idea has been around a very long time and it is not a mystery.

Here is another one -- this one by a mandolin player who picked up the fretted fiddle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GW1J75oAKU

[Bernie Daniel]

Listen to these folks wail out on a fretted fiddle for example.......the sky is the limit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpLbUwxEsmQ

Skilled players can do amazing things with fretted violins listen to this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnULlACN1mw

[Charlieshafer]

Ha! Jason Anick was in that first video. Berkeley instructor, Gypsy jazz violinist tres excellent, and electro mandolin player as well. I do have a fretted electric cello for one purpose: we'll play in one club with one specific line-up, and it's loud, and the monitors are horrible (as in I can't hear myself) and I got so tired worrying about feedback, not hearing myself, and mystery intonation I punted. Works great, and the crowd has no clue that it's a cello on training wheels.