View Full Version : Gibson Lyre Mandolin
Paul Weber
Jun-07-2006, 3:20pm
Check it out!! Sorry don't know how to link.
Darryl Wolfe
Jun-07-2006, 3:22pm
here. #Looks like the one I've seen Siminoff and Grisman with. Photo courtesy of Gruhn
I think this is older than the previously known one.. this one has a factory-style tailpiece, smoother carving, less complexity on the peghead..
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/00_lyre_front1.jpg
jim simpson
Jun-07-2006, 5:34pm
That would be great to bring to a bluegrass jam! At least one wouldn't mind being asked what that little instrument is. It's not a ukulele, it's a stinking Lyre!!
I thought these were reproductions but I found the article on Roger Siminoff's site. Here's a little more on it:
Lyre Mandolins (http://www.siminoff.net/pages/gibson_labels.html)
Jim Garber
Jun-07-2006, 11:10pm
So, there might actually be three of these: the one that Dan pictured, the one on the label and the one unearthed by Gruhn. The one on the label is neither of these extent ones since the label instrument has a rosette but no pickguard.
Jim
The type of label that is showing there is an Orville Gibson signature label. Those are quite cool, and were the template for the later factory labels (also showing the lyre).
Here's an Orville Gibson Guitar (http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Guitars/Gibson/10855/StyleO3Guitar.html) from the National Music Museum in Vermillion, SD. This is it's Orville-signed label (that the lyre pictured from Gruhn's appears to have as well)
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Guitars/Gibson/10855/10855GibsonguitarlabelleftsideLG.jpg
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Guitars/Gibson/10855/10855GibsonguitarlabelrightsideLG.jpg
Or on reflection.. it's a different label.. the one pictured on the Lyre has text to the LEFT of the harp instrument logo.
This is a pretty important piece.. the peghead has extra "Scrolls" on it which is an Orville hallmark. Note also that the darker one pictured has much smoother/more cylindrical shaping, the one at Gruh's has less sophisticated workmanship typical of Orville's earlier design technique using shaped carved sides and enormous individual pieces of wood. The neck heel is also bulgy like the earliest mandos attributed to OG, and the peghead is not connected to the lyre necks with small supports as in the darker one. The inlaid star & crescent is another Orville signature, it appears on every instrument in the earliest Gibson catalog.
This is one of the more interesting pieces to turn up in many years, a fascinating piece of history!
markishandsome
Jun-08-2006, 10:40am
So, there might actually be three of these: the one that Dan pictured, the one on the label and the one unearthed by Gruhn. The one on the label is neither of these extent ones since the label instrument has a rosette but no pickguard.
Oh I don't know, the one on the label looks pretty similar to the known one. The pickgaurd could have been added later and the tailpiece replaced. Even the labels could have been put in at a later date using an old picture.
possible but not all that likely IMO. IT's interesting to see the original Orville instruments, they are quite rare to find. Dated labels on them are also fascinating. I'd very much like to see the label in detail- the guitar one above is quite clearly a match for the previously known lyre mandolin- circular star on peghead and little pieces of wood connecting the peghead to the "horns" of the lyre. If you look at it, it's very similar to that exact instrument. The "new" one from Gruhn is not, which makes it appear earlier to my eye in terms of the construction style and design vibe.. but it could also have been a more simply put-together one? A very cool piece!
Jim M.
Jun-08-2006, 10:55am
Have any of you played one of these? What do they sound like?
bgmando
Jun-08-2006, 12:59pm
I second Jim M's question. I'd like to hear one. What do they sound like?
Ken Waltham
Jun-09-2006, 1:51pm
I haven't played one, but I can tell you what it would sound like...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Jim Garber
Jun-09-2006, 2:16pm
Ah, if only Bill found one in that barber shop. It would have changed the sound of bluegrass today.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Jim
sgarrity
Jun-09-2006, 3:24pm
So who knows how much they want for it?
Bill Halsey
Jun-10-2006, 12:55am
Or on reflection.. it's a different label.. the one pictured on the Lyre has text to the LEFT of the harp instrument logo.
Dan, I can tell you that the label in the lyre mando you have posted is indeed quite different from the OHG guitar. This appears to be the particular lyre mando that was brought to our shop in Kalamazoo in June of 1977 for identification. I measured and documented the various aspects of the instrument, and my description of its label was as follows:
The instrument bears a printed rectangular label, having an illustration of a similar instrument in the center, with the inscription “trademark” within its bouts, and a picture of Orville H. Gibson superimposed over the fingerboard.
On the left, the label reads:
The Gibson Mandolins and Guitars – are acknowledged by leading Artists as World Beaters. EVERY INSTRUMENT WARRANTED.
And on the right:
Correct Scale.
Easy to Play.
Beautiful Model.
Powerful Tone.
Originated and Patented February 1, 1898, by O.H. GIBSON … Kalamazoo, Mich.
The instrument also bears a label, inverted, and slightly overlapping the bottom of the first, hand-written in red ballpoint pen, reading: Restored By Leonard Kalivoda Douglas, Mich.
Also, after quite some study, it was my considered opinion that due to discrepancies in several details this was not the same instrument as pictured on its label.
With regard to its tone, it makes a great wall-hanger.
Cool Bill, thanks for that. I've been trying to see if it's possible to get a photo of the label of the Lyre mando at Gruhn's. If anyone is close by and could confirm for me I'd appreciate that. Gruhn's staff are incredibly busy this time of year and I hate to hassle them with archive-nerd questions that can't be answered in 30 seconds or less!
Bill Halsey
Jun-10-2006, 11:51pm
Gruhn's staff are incredibly busy this time of year and I hate to hassle them with archive-nerd questions that can't be answered in 30 seconds or less!
I wouldn’t be too concerned about that, Dan: that’s their job. Wouldn’t you think that George is something of an archivist, as well? They have always been very willing to send me extra pix on request.
Here are a couple more machinations over these strange instruments by this remarkable man, OHG…
The b/w photo on Siminoff’s site is the instrument we received at Homespun Music in 1977 for ID. Note the differences in the sound-hole inlays flanking the fingerboard, between this photo and the one you submitted in color (see below).
Here was my description of that feature at the time:
Sound hole rosette is 7/16” wide with 1/16” violin purfling either side of 5/16” wide cloud-shape inlays of pink abalone, filled with a dark glue mixture. Has been rudely repaired with two replacement inlays in lacquer stick fill, flanking fingerboard.
Truth is, the neck & fingerboard had begun to collapse into the body, thereby altering the shape of the sound hole. Perhaps the fellow identified on the repair label was charged to look after this problem, and saw fit to change the inlays to accommodate the new profile of that area. There was evidence of the entire instrument having been disassembled and reglued inaccurately, with various overlaps at the outline.
At any rate, it is the tortoise shell fingerrest that inextricably links these two photos; the pattern in the shell is identical in each (allowing for a bit of forshortening in the forward-leaning b/w image). In the color photo, the whole instrument appears to have been cleaned up and the sound hole inlays have been restored to their original configuration, perhaps to match the instrument on the label. It would be interesting to see if the instrument retains its old repair label, or if it bears a new one.
This instrument is of behemoth proportion, at least for a mandolin. The actual scale length, nut to c/l of bridge, is 14 1/2”. The nut to 12th is 7 3/16”, giving it a theoretical scale of 14 3/8”. The width at the nut is 1 1/4”, and at the 12th is 1 21/32”. The instrument weighs 3 lbs, 11 oz (an F-4 is a scant bit over 2 lbs). The height of the ribs average 1”, and the body averages 3” deep outside, top to back. And so on.
I believe that instrument was refinished as well (the one with the two photos). I'm intrigued that the label in the BW image doesn't appear to be the same as the one in color?
grandmainger
Jun-11-2006, 5:20am
Do we have a photo of someone actually playing one of these lyre-shaped mandolins? I'm curious about how the heck one holds it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Germain
Bill Halsey
Jun-11-2006, 9:47am
Do we have a photo of someone actually playing one of these lyre-shaped mandolins? I'm curious about how the heck one holds it!
Germain
Here's a pic of Roger playing his own replica. It is slightly smaller than the original, as he had scaled his outline using an assumed scale length 13 15/16". However, it is 50% deeper with 1 1/2" ribs; the OHG has 1" ribs.
http://www.siminoff.net/Media/gibson_rogerw-lyre.JPG
grandmainger
Jun-11-2006, 10:49am
Thanks Bill, cool pic!
Looks pretty fiddly! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
Germain
markishandsome
Jun-11-2006, 10:54am
There's a partial picture of the label and some more detail shots in the "Features" section at Gruhn's.
Lyre (http://www.gruhn.com/features/lyre/mf7175.html)
Bill Halsey
Jun-11-2006, 11:30am
I believe that instrument was refinished as well (the one with the two photos). I'm intrigued that the label in the BW image doesn't appear to be the same as the one in color?
The instrument in the B/W photo is leaning forward with a viewing angle deeper into the body, revealing the square repair label. It is off-centre to the right, inverted, and slightly overlaps the original OHG label.
In 1977 the instrument retained its original dark orange (like shellac) top colour, but had been over-varnished at some earlier time. The sawn ribs are of curly maple and the back is of black walnut.
Walter Carter presents a brief account of this instrument on p. 30 of his excellent book, "Gibson Guitars - 100 Years of an American Icon." However, there are several errors of fact regarding its discovery.
The short version is, the owner was in town to take delivery of the instrument and took it to the Gibson factory only to be viewed by them, not for refinishing or restoration. It was left with us at Homespun Music for three days for examination and documentation. Jan Bloom did an extensive photo shoot and spoke at length with the owner, and I recorded the particulars of the instrument.
Even though Julius Bellson presumed the instrument was originally finished black, Jan and I agree there was absolutely no evidence of it. Julius had approached the owner on behalf of the company with a modest offer to purchase the instrument, which the owner declined.
The label is identical to the one on Gruhn's site, and is shown in full view at the bottom of p. 43 of Carter's book.
Martin Jonas
Jun-12-2006, 5:43am
Do we have a photo of someone actually playing one of these lyre-shaped mandolins? I'm curious about how the heck one holds it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Not a Gibson lyre mandolin, but here's a photo of one of the Andrini Brothers playing a Neapolitan (probably Calace) mandolyra. He looks rather more at ease with the instrument than Siminoff in the other photo above, probably because it was his main instrument for a few decades (photo from this (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=31541;hl=liuto) thread).
Martin
Thanks for the details link Mark! What a cool piece http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif