Is it bluegrass without mandolins?

[Bill Snyder]

Came across this site (http://www.templebluegrass.org/index.html) for a BG festival in my hometown and thought that while b#@%os, dobro, guitars, bass fiddles and fiddles where mentioned one place or another mandolins never are.
Can it be bluegrass without mandolins?
I know that the bands there are bound to have mandolins, but I thought it strange that whoever put the website together would omit the instrument most associated with the genre.

Bill S.

[Willie Poole]

I consider Flatt and Scruggs bluegrass and they didn`t have a mandolin for many a year and then when they did get one he didn`t play a lot of lead but he sang a great tenor...Willie

[Garry G]

IMHO you need a guitar and a banjo. Each additional instrument after that is frosting on the cake. Although those bands with a good mandolin and fiddle player are my favorites to listen to.

[Scott Tichenor]

I love this discussion.

Bluegrass is banjo music. Period. I'll pass on the wink-wink to the oxymoron.

You can have a bluegrass band without a mandolin, but take away the banjo and you'll have a hard time convincing anyone it's a bluegrass band except the press which doesn't know better and doesn't really need to know better I suppose you could say. You can leave out a fiddle, dobro (ie, resophonic guitar for the politcally correct), even a bass and it's still a bluegrass band as long as there's a banjo doing the three-finger roll. Having a banjo in a band doesn't automatically make it a bluegrass band, ever. But no mandolin player, even Monroe can make an acoustic ensemble into a full-fledged bluegrass band without a banjo player standing next to him... I think I just flamed a few people with that statement. Heh.

Bill Monroe may have been the father of bluegrass music, but Earl Scruggs was the gasoline that made it a wildfire. Almost anyone over 21 has heard Dueling Banjos or Foggy Mountain Breakdown. They may not know the name of the song but they'll recognize it. Play Rawhide for that same group and you'll get blank stares.

[Andrew Reckhart]

I am usually a moderate purist and and very traditional in opinion. I would consider the 5-string Banjo played "Scruggs" style to be the instrument associated with the stereotypical Bluegrass sound. A big sounding guitar with lots of transitional runs from chord to chord and some firey hotlicks combined with a chopping mandolin, pulsating upright bass and some well played fiddle really round out the sound. All in all the banjo is probably the instrument that shaped the sound most associated with Bluegrass, even though the man who invented the style played Mandolin.

[Scotti Adams]

..yea..what Scott said...

[Andrew Reckhart]

Hey Scott~
Did we just agree on something? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

I don't think it's the banjo -- #
or the mandolin, or the whatever that makes it bluegrass. I know a band that uses some instruments from India in the mix.
My feeling is that it is a particular music that has grown out of old country, #traditional Appalachian tunes, and even some southwestern influences. And as we discussed elsewhere, Gospel influences.
And what about Del doing Richard Thompson? Other genres can be bluegrassed. Bluegrass can go other directions.
-------
Banjos are nice, however.

[Scott Tichenor]

I don't think it's the banjo -- #
or the mandolin, or the whatever that makes it bluegrass. I know a band that uses some instruments from India in the mix.
My feeling is that it is a particular music that has grown out of old country, #traditional Appalachian tunes, and even some southwestern influences. And as we discussed elsewhere, Gospel influences.
And what about Del doing Richard Thompson? Other genres can be bluegrassed. Bluegrass can go other directions.
-------
Banjos are nice, however.
Anything can be called bluegrass by traditionalists if it's done in the appropriate style. I don't have any problem with this and in fact it's one thing I like about bluegrass in that you can take something from other genres and make it fit, although some of that 60's and 70's music done in that style didn't do much for me personally.

I stand firm that bluegrass is banjo music though, not mandolin. And country music is the sound of electric guitar, not acoustic. These days it is. It's OK to have a mandolin or banjo seen in the band... as long as you don't hear them too much. Basically good for props.

[Coy Wylie]

All I have to say is "Manzanita."

Rice on guitar, Skaggs, Bush, Grisman on mando/fiddle, Douglas on dobro through in a bass player (can't remember who)... awesome, just awesome and no banjos in sight.

[Givensman]

I agree totally with Scott. The banjo IS bluegrass. Take it away, you ain't playin' bluegrass. So ........
We have Claw Hammer style, Uncle Dave, Stringbean, Grandpa ..... I'll call this style "mountain music".....kinda is and kinda isn't bluegrass to me.
In the 40's comes Earl, three finger style, hard drivin' or slower gospel, or not so hard drivin', but never the less, if Earl's in the band, bluegrass to me.
So, ......I guess Earl is the father of bluegrass to me ....ut oh ....blasphemy .....jump on me ....it's OK....I can handle it.
Monroe put the groups together .....but Earl was the real core of what made bluegrass to me.....and Lester sure was a big part too.

[Scott Tichenor]

All I have to say is "Manzanita."
Yes, Manzanita was a great recording, but it wasn't bluegrass. I don't have any problem with what it gets called. Alot of other people do though. I still wouldn't call that bluegrass and I'd venture none of the players on that recording with argue it was bluegrass. There's a huge gap between traditional bluegrass and traditional bluegrass tunes played in a non-traditional manner (ie, minus banjo).

If that's bluegrass then Nickel Creek, AKUS, and anything sung by Tim O'Brien w/o banjo is bluegrass. Someone contact the site administrator! There's a fight going on. I'd go for popcorn but it's before noon. Just doesn't seem right.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandopete]

Every 6 months to a year when this discussion comes up I think "have I learned anything new about what defines bluerass music?". #I've heard Scott's argument before and from a bluegrass preservationist point-of-view, this is probably the simplest way to define the compelling component of a bluegrass band.

Does that make it right?

To me a bluegrass band is like an orchestra, with each instrument filling a particular role to support an ensemble sound. #To remove any element, be it banjo, mandolin, voice, ect seems to weaken the sound and invite the question "is this bluegrass?"

[Coy Wylie]

Scott,

I'm not argumentative in this and I bow to your greater knowledge but I do have a question. What would you call Monroe's music before he added a banjo player (can't remember the guy before Scruggs)?

I have the early recordings from the mid 30's through the late 40's. The earliest is just Bill and Charlie, mando and guitar, two-part harmony. Skaggs and Rice did this again on their late 70's album. Some of the same songs are also done elsewhere with complete BG bands including banjo.

Is pre-banjo Monroe not bluegrass? Are traditional BG tunes done sans banjo not bluegrass?

Again this doesn't really matter to me but I struggle with the though it can't be called BG unless it has a banjo.

[Bob Sayers]

I'm going to throw a little wood on the fire here. #I think bluegrass REALLY began when Bill Monroe recorded "Mule Skinner Blues" on October 7, 1940 at the Kimball Hotel in Atlanta. #I've long heard that Bill is playing driving guitar (!!) on the recording, though you can hear a mandolin in the background. #The main point is that he and his bandmates (Tommy Magness on hot fiddle, Clyde Moody on guitar, and Bill Westbrook on bass) finally nailed the bluegrass tempo. #An earlier live recording of the song at the Grand Ole Opry on November 25, 1939 has a more loping tempo that's not nearly as effective. #So clearly Bill was still working on his signature sound at that time. #But it all came together with that one recording a year later--without a banjo!

Bob

Addendum: #I just pulled out my copy of the "Mule Skinner Blues" CD (BMG 2494-2-R) and should add that it's that entire 1940 session--not just the one song--that really establishes the "Blue Grass" sound. #And Bill IS playing the driving lead guitar which, in my book, makes him not only one of the most creative mandolinists of all time but also one of the most imaginative guitarists of that period. #You can almost hear him saying impatiently to his well-regarded bandmate: #"Here, Clyde, let me show you how to do it!"

[jim simpson]

Willard,
I believe the pre-Scruggs Monroe band music was probably just called Country Music. In the early days of Bluegrass it was stilled included in the Country genre. I think early country music is what many of us consider the real Country Music. Stringbean was the previous banjo player who played the clawhammer style. I think of this period of Monroe as closer to stringband or even old timey music.
I think Bluegrass music is more recognizable when it includes banjo but I believe Bluegrass is not just the instruments but the style or approach to the way the music is presented.
Jim

[Hoovetone]

Bluegrass music seems to be easier to play (sometimes) with a banjo, but it's not a requirement. That's my observation and opinion. That's all it is. Hey, That's all anyone's is.
I like and play all kinds of acoustic music,and want all of you to respect others opinions(in other words-don't fight!)
By the way I don't agree with Scott that bluegrass music is banjo music!

[Givensman]

The Skillet Lickers .....Bluegrass?
Charie and Bill ...... Bluegrass?
Flatt and Scruggs .....Bluegrass?

Which one's are definitely bluegrass with no well ahhh, if ahhh, or does it have ahhhh

C'mon!!!!!

[Scott Tichenor]

Ah, darn. There are too many discussions going on. But that's OK. I'm still right, and you all know it. Banjos rule in bluegrass, have always ruled in bluegrass and will continue to rule in bluegrass. Forever. Bluegrass is banjo music, not mandolin music.

Want some proof? Start looking at the rules for all of the big bluegrass band contests around the country and see how many you'll get disqualified in if there's no banjo. What's everyone's take on that? No mandolin? No problem. Advertisement: two separate festivals, ten bands each. For one, no band has a banjo but does have a mandolin. The other, just the reverse. Which one do you really think is a bluegrass festival?

Yes, I've heard the Monroe recordings with accordion. Great music--marvelous in fact. I wouldn't call it bluegrass but I sure like it.

Now, let me finish in saying that I am posting these opinions not as the owner of the Mandolin Cafe or as the person who pays for this board. I am posting this as an individual. If BigJoe can whine about this, well, darn it, then I should be able too as well!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Givensman]

No Banjo, No Bluegrass.

I'm done!

[mrbook]

With apologies to my hero Bill Monroe, I have to agree that the banjo is what makes it bluegrass. There is more to it, but unless someone is fingerpicking a banjo it really isn't. Bill Monroe's early Bluegrass Boys had the drive and all the other elements, but the Earl's banjo playing is what really got the fire burning bright.
The only exception I've ever found is Tony Rice's "Manzanita." It took several listenings before I realized that there was no banjo anywhere on the record. I recently transferred my lp to CD, and it has been my bedtime and wakeup music for the last couple weeks. After 20+ years I never get tired of it.

[evanreilly]

First of all, I beleive the words Rinzler wrote to the effect that 'Blue Grass music is the intensely personal music of Bill Monroe'; Monroe himself said that he said everything he had to say in his music.
Now, from that starting point, it is interesting to see that Monroe thought of the music as revolving around the fiddle. the banjo was the "fifth child" in the family; the fiddle was eldest, first, most important. Even before the mandolin.
But of course we all know that Monroe was a fiddler at heart anyway....

[ira]

not a big bg guy, but i appreciate it, and have read with interest all of the "is it or isn't it" threads on the cafe. there were many about non-traditional bg instruments in use, even in bm's bands. isn't it the general feel and arrangements more than the instruments used that leads to a bg tune?

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

So is it safe to say that minus the banjo we can call it progressive bg? That dreaded (by some) interloper?

[Coy Wylie]

Want some cheese with that whine... just kidding, each to his own opinion.

Did you hear the one about the banjo cruise... Ha!

[mrbook]

I don't like to get into discussions of what is or isn't bluegrass because even after 40 years of playing and listening I can't give a fully satisfactory definition. I know it when I hear it; my tastes are pretty traditional, but I like new songs and songs from other styles (although I was a bit put off by newgrass in the 70s). Whatever I like or think, the banjo has to be in there. It may be good music, but it's not bluegrass without the banjo.

When our group first started, we played songs from the bluegrass repertoire, but we didn't have a banjo player. I knew it wasn't bluegrass, even if the general public didn't. I even found myself correcting people at times, until I realized you shouldn't argue with people who are paying you a compliment. The bluegrass people certainly knew - when the local bluegrass association hired us, we would get the comments: "It's good music, but it's not bluegrass," etc. Some of us had the desire to play real bluegrass, to give those people what they wanted to hear, and even to prove we could do it. Since we couldn't find a banjo player (at least not with a personality that would fit with the rest of us), I took it up. When we play for a real bluegrass crowd, I'll be playing the banjo most of the time. Everywhere else, the banjo takes a smaller role, and I can go back to the mandolin. Same music, different style.

When I go to bluegrass festivals, I expect to see a banjo player in every band. If not, it's just a country band to me - which isn't a bad thing, unless I want to hear bluegrass.

Flatt & Scruggs and the Stanley Brothers both gave the mandolin a lesser role at times, probably to set their sound apart from Monroe. Whatever Monroe started - and probably only he could do it in just the right way - it didn't come together completely until Scruggs came along, and it's never right without the banjo.

[Bill Snyder]

OK, so bluegrass is banjo music. No problem.
After I posted this question I named off several genres of music and asked my wife to name the first instrument that came to mind. For bluegrass she too named banjo.
I still think if you are putting together a website for a bluegrass festival and somewhere in the site mention several different instruments a mandolin would be one of them.

Bill S.

[Hoovetone]

All ya'll Banjo lover's might consider attending a few banjo workshops or a good banjo convention.

[Coy Wylie]

All ya'll Banjo lover's might consider attending a few banjo workshops or a good banjo convention.
...or this (http://banjoteacher.com/_BanjoCruise/Banjo-Cruise-Caribbean.htm).

[earthsave]

I really miss the mandolin sound in Bluegrass bands that do not use one, e.g. the Flatt and Scruggs without lead mando. I like the standard Guitar, Bass, Mando, Fiddle, Banjo lineup.

[Mando4Life]

I agree with Scott T totally.

....I fall into the over 21 crowd (30 y/o), But I do know Rawhide and am lucky enough to have seen Big Mun play it. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Salty Dog]

I agree with Scott 1000%. #I have always said that to call WSM the "father" of bluegrass was a disservice to the meaning of "father" (one who nurtures and helps to mature). #If WSM had had his way, he would have been the only one to play bluegrass and it probably would have died as he didn't provide the best performance of the music. #Flatt and Scruggs should be considered the fathers of the music as they nurtured and developed the sound (did WSM invent the "G-run?) and popularized it ("Bonnie and Clyde" and "Beverly Hillbillies) beyond regional boundaries. #The Stanley Brothers also deserve a lot of credit for popularizing the music. #To appease the WSM fans, you have to give him some credit - he did recognize the potential of Flatt and Scruggs (he hired them, didn't he?). #He also wrote (or bought) a large number of great songs and was responsible for an entirely original style of mandolin picking, for which we should be eternally grateful. #To end my comment on this controversy, I'll add a controversial comment. #Scott, if bluegrass music is banjo music, why didn't WSM generally include the banjo on his gospel numbers? #Is this to say that bluegrass gospel isn't bluegrass without a banjo? #I don't think so!

[evanreilly]

Bill's brother Charlie learned the 'G-run' from Riley Puckett.
Lester Flatt learned it from Charlie Monroe when he, Lester, played mandolin in the Kentucky Partners, Charlie's band, long before joining the Blue Grass Boys.
Got it straight now???
You may also beleive Louise Scruggs was the mother of, and knew everything about, Blue Grass Music.

[Scott Tichenor]

Scott, if bluegrass music is banjo music, why didn't WSM generally include the banjo on his gospel numbers?
Bill was no dummy. With all of the sinning he did in his life he had to do something to get into heaven.

[mandoJeremy]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif VERY TRUE Scott!

[Willie Poole]

Scott....I have beat my head against the wall and busted up three computers in four years trying to convince these "Newbies" as to what bluegrass really is and its a losing battle...Like you stated way back in your first response its what the promoters call it that makes some people think they know what bluegrass really is...Maybe it can`t be defined to the nth degree but I`m sure we all know it when we hear it and I`m with most of you, if it don`t have a banjo then to me it ain`t bluegrass...NICKLE CREEK INCLUDED...God bless all of you pickers and listeners but please don`t lose sight of what bluegrass really was meant to be, play what you want and call it what you want but lets keep the door open for the traditional bluegrass sound, with a banjo....Thanks....Willie

[mrbook]

If you really like bluegrass, just play or listen rather than try to explain it to people who will never get it. By the way, why is "Oh, Brother" a big boost to bluegrass music? I've seen the movie 8-10 times, including twice on TV last weekend, and my daughter bought me the soundtrack (so she could listen), but I can't remember hearing any real bluegrass anywhere in it.

You can have a bluegrass band without a mandolin, but it's not recommended.

[mandobsessed]

Banjo is very important, but without that driving mandolin rhythm something is lacking....it just doesn't sound right.

[floyd floar]

do you mean to tell me that when Earl would play guitar on some F&S numbers, that it wasn't BG?

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I think that the general public does associate the banjo with bluegrass music, but to me there has to be at least four instruments before you can achieve the bluegrass sound: banjo, mandolin, guitar and bass. Without those four, I don't think you can have a complete bluegrass band. A good fiddle player is a bonus.

[Joboy]

I am a mandolin player and I think it is important to a BG sound , but listen to the Traditional Grass out of Ohio and tell me that's not bluegrass. They recorded for at least 6 years before adding a mandolin.

[Scotti Adams]

..yea..my dad was the original bass player for The Traditional Grass...even when they added mando there wasnt many mando breaks...just chops..they were primarily a fiddle/banjo band....they done some really good stuff..

[Kirby161]

To the statement "All Bluegrass needs a mandolin to be bluegrass" is wrong.
However the statement "All good Bluegrass has a mandolin" is true. although it isint neccicary, a mando in the mix just plain makes it better. Ask yourself this;
what is the king of bluegrass famous for playing (other than bluegrass of course)
THE MANDO
conclusion-
no mando isint bad
but it is better.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Actually, the king of bluegrass plays guitar: Jimmy Martin. But I realize you meant Bill Monroe, the "Father of Bluegrass".

[kvk]

My first exposure to BG was Old And In The Way. I don't think anyone would aregue that OaitW isn't BG.

Now here's a comparison, I downloaded PeterRowan 10.24.98 off furthurnet-- Peter Rowan, Tony Rice, Vassar Clements, Ronny Simpkins (see setlist below), a lot of the same songs as OaitW. It's BG musicians ,(mostly) BG songs but there's no banjo on it. So does it sound like BG? Well pretty much but not quite. It's sort of borderline BG.

I also downloaded PR 7/15/95. This is just Rowan with Jerry Douglas. It has a lot of the same songs. It doesn't sound at all like BG; it sounds like pure folk.

So, I kinda a buy the banjo argument but only partly. If the rest of the instruments are there playing in a BG style, it sure is gosh darn close. When only a couple of the instruments are there, it's not at all BG. IMveryHO of course.

Peace,

Ken


Peter Rowan
10.24.98
Hickory, NC
Catawba Civic Center

With Tony Rice, Vassar Clements, Ronny Simpkins

Source: SBD>??


Disc 1:
Muleskinner Blues,
Panama Red,
Hobo Song,
Old Santa Fe,
Free Mexican Airforce,
Lonesome Fiddle Blues,
Walls of Time,
Cold Rain and Snow >
I Know You Rider,
Footprints in the Snow,
The First Whipporwill.

Disc 2:
In the Pines,
Instr.,
The Picture Bride,
The Kissimmee Kid,
Portland Blues,
Midnight Moonlight,
Land of the Navajo,
Ruby Ridge

Sorry, I don't have a setlist handy for 7/15/95.

[John Ritchhart]

Well I think it's Bluegrass in the summer. It's rye in the winter, and you need a really good broadleaf killer on it the spring.

[KevinM]

I respectfully suggest Banjo is not essential. Bluegrass is all over the map. Defining bluegrass is like the IRS's 20 factors to distinguish independant contractors from employees, i.e., a question of fact rather than a question of law as The Banjo Principle would hold. Thus, a gospel number with four part harmonies, a guitar and a mandolin, is bluegrass. Fiddle tunes can be bluegrass, but might be old-time depending upon the beat and the song selected. One factor: Did Bill or F&S play it? if so chances are it's bluegrass. Is "Evening Prayer Blues" bluegrass?

In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, or what is obscene, by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced . . . [b]ut I know it when I see it . . . " Nuff said, Potter - Rock On With Yo Bad Self.

[futrconslr]

[QUOTE]You may also beleive Louise Scruggs was the mother of, and knew everything about, Blue Grass Music.

LOL......This is the best comment EVER!!!

[SmallFry]

Alright, I'd like to chip in my 2 cents as a 14 year old. Its not the instrument that makes it bluegrass, its the bass line and something to chop on the off beats(preferably not drums). Banjo works fine for that but the mando does a better job.

I think this is why they created the banjolin.

ps...the banjo and mando are both awesome on modern recordings like that one REM song and the new Guster cd

Sorry Scott...banjo is cool and all but its not the thing that really makes bluegrass bluegrass

[Trip]

Ive seen bands that play bluegrass, without mando, without fiddle or without banjo, but I havent seen any with out a guitar.....but in the early days, guitar was only for strummin...no lead runs allowed

[Mark in Nevada City]

Couple of quickie comments: I don't usually judge BG by the instruments!

Nickle Creek: BLuegrass? Naw. Great music inspired by BG? Yep.
Newgrass Revival: Bluegrass? Yep. Great Music inspired by Rock and Roll ;-)
Manzanita: Bluegrass? Yep. Rice had been spending too much time Grisman (he came to his senses later!)--Todd Phillips on Bass BTW: a good mando picker himself!
Bela Fleck: BLuegrass? Sheesh, I don't know. He can do it all, but mostly Bela is Bela. Definitely great music inspired by BG.

I'm blanking on BIgMon's early Banjo player--String Bean? Didn't have a chance when that youngster named Earl came along!

Cheers, mmm

Mark - I'll agree that it isn't just the instruments. I disagree when you bounce from performer to specific recordings. Bluegrass is a style/genre. Of the three performer/groups, all have done stuff that is definitely bluegrass and all have done stuff that is definitely not.

[Mark in Nevada City]

Tim, I'll agree with yer agreement, and I'll agree with yer disagreement!

[abram]

I think any style of music is defined by the feel of it, never by what instruments are playing it. Are you going to tell me that sam bush doesn't play reggae because he's playing it on a mandolin and mandolin isn't a traditional reggae instrument? Are you telling me that bela fleck doesn't play jazz on his banjo? while i love good old hard-core Bill Monroe bluegrass as much as anybody, music is always evolving, and labels are worthless anyway

-abe

[Willie Poole]

It took me 20 minutes to read all of these posts and the question still hasn`t been answered..Bluegrass is what YOU want it to be....AND when Scruggs played guitar on some songs the music was called "Hillbilly" music and any music with a country flavor was acceptible, those were the good old days...A lot of the older BG bands didn`t have a mandolin, Flatt and Scruggs, Reno and Smiley, but when they got one it sure changed their sound with that chop in there.....Willie

[happycamper]

If you are gonna play in Texas - you gotta have a fiddle in the band.

Banjo? Go tune it!

[Scott Tichenor]

I've been chatting with the producer of the Bluegrass Journey video a bit. If you don't think banjos are the defining force of bluegrass then here's another anecdote. He said his biggest complaint about the video is that there's too much mandolin.

[Garrett]

Bluegrass is above all a rhythmic feel and a way of singing. Singing aside, the rhythmic feel is traditionally made by the tension between mandolin backbeat chop and banjo forward roll pushing the beat, with guitar and bass sitting in the middle. It can be made on other instruments -- fiddle can chop as can banjo -- but if it has bluegrass instruments but doesn't have that feel its not bluegrass as far as I hear it. #

And I'm sorry guys but banjo is THE central instrument. Listen to the new Bill Monroe Bear family set, the cut with Stringbean, and then put on Molly and Tenbrooks and tell me with a straight face that aint so!

[rhetoric]

A definition is like a belt: If it's too tight, you're uncomfortable. If it's too loose, your pants fall down.
:-)

[mmukav]

From a purely musical standpoint the 'must have banjo' rule does not stand up. I really believe that the music itself is what makes it bluegrass. The syncopation of the three finger roll that the banjo makes can be mimicked by mandolin, guitar and dobro.(to some degree at least). You can't tell me that if you play 'roll in my sweet baby's arms' with a mando, guitar, fiddle, dobro and bass that it's not bluegrass. Is it then just 'country'? Or 'mountain music', or 'folk'? Bluegrass is a feeling, the tight harmonies, the thumping bass, the mandolin chop. Together with the banjo you have the quinessential bluegrass band, the band that evolved after Earl Scruggs joined the Bill Monroe band.

[Garrett]

I agree. Bluegrass is also a bit of a big tent form, that includes brother duets and fiddle tunes and other stuff that may be played in a bluegrass show. But unless it's anchored in bluegrass in the more specific sense I don't see the point of calling it bluegrass. For example although Blake and Rice both play bluegrass very well on many recordings, the Blake and Rice records they did together aren't really bluegrass, although many of the songs they perform on these records are played in a bluegrass context as well. The "bluegrassness" of brother duets, fiddle tunes and so forth ultimately comes from being a part of a show that is patterned on one of the classic groups with that rhythm and vocal style -- Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, and the groups deriving from them.

[jlb]

As others have referred to, "Bluegrass" is a term for record labels to categorize products for you to buy. Record labels market this way, record stores market this way, and instrument manufacturers market this way.

Any individual definition will vary from individual to individual, as proven by this thread.

In the end, the only meaning bluegrass has is that which you choose to asign to it.

[Garrett]

"In the end, the only meaning bluegrass has is that which you choose to asign to it."

This I disagree with. It is a specific music form with a specific history. Baroque music is not bluegrass, and if you call it bluegrass you are just being willful or foolish.

[jmcgann]

IMHO- if Manzanita's bluegrass numbers like "Hold What You Got "and "Midnight On The Stormy Deep" ain't bluegrass, then grits ain't groceries, as George Jones said!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

(VOICE OF TONY SOPRANO):
You got Tony and Ricky singin' together, on dem tunes, what the hell d'ya call it- folk? S'mattahwitchu!

(ME) OK, OK, Tony, don't whack 'em, will ya let's go?

(Yiz diddin know Tony was a traditional bluegrass Don?)

Bluegrass is defined by approach (and like Louis Armstrong said "If you have to ask you"ll never know!) as much as instrumentation.

PS- maybe the "Skaggs and Rice" album is proto-grass...

[Garrett]

I think there are two main reasons why we call brother duets and other forms bluegrass (and I mean without full bluegrass instrumentation). One is that Bill Monroe was a master of the form and drew on it in creating bluegrass. And, secondly, because it has a place in the classic bluegrass show, when Carter and Ralph hunker over to the microphone and sing a sparsely unaccompanied duet, or Bill and Lester doing Old Crossroads (not brothers I know, but duet form) and so forth. Same goes for the place of gospel numbers in bluegrass shows, another form that was brough into bluegrass. Same with fiddle breakdowns. I agree that the instrumentation, although clearly not irrelevent, can't define bluegrass. The banjoless Manzanita is a good point (BTW Sammy Shelor taught himself banjo by playing along with Manzanita. He has the best bluegrass time around, so it seems a kind proof of the "bluegrassness" of the record).

BUT if you just play gospel or sing brother duets without that feel (the Blue Sky Boys would be a good example) -- regardless of instrumentation -- I don't see what the point is in calling it bluegrass. I purposely said Blake and Rice as opposed to Skaggs and Rice because the two recordings are different, Skaggs and Rice is much more -- uh -bluegrassy.

John are you gonna come play the Fessy? Can I get a copy of the Curly Chalker from you? I'll give you a "secret" recording of Clarence White in exchange!

[jlb]

Garrett,

I wasn't trying to get ridiculous. I know that MC Hammer isn't bluegrass, and I have the same common-sense definition of what bluegrass is and what its not as I assume most folks do.

But point in case, there's a local band that labels itself a BG band. They play with a washtub base, a mountain-style banjo, a ukele, and other non-trad instrumentation. They play BG songs, but it sure as heck aint BG to me. But people watch them, and those that don't know the difference certainly percieve them as a BG act...to them that is BG music...I equate it to Nickel Creek or modern AKUS...its just not BG to me, but some poeple when they hear the term BG, that's probably the first type of stuff they think of.

Same with the Norman Blake or Doc Watson...some people think that's BG, but I'm sure if you tried to label them that way, they might even get offended (if such nice fellows are even capable of being offended).

In fact, I think some people probably think that BG is anything acoustic that isn't Nashville country music.

And I'd probably bet that Bill Monroe didn't think anything that he wasn't involved with or endorsed was BG!

[Michael H Geimer]

"Bluegrass is defined by approach ... "
- Moose

Moose, I'm in total agreement. I think of music in general as a game of intention. What you actually play is far less important than what you were trying to play.

So, it's no use for us to ask each other if NGR is Bluegrass or not ... go ask Sam, or Peter if they think that stuff is/was Bluegrass.

But, my hontest opinion is that Bluegrass music wants to have Scrugg-style banjo in the mix.

Challenge: Tally up the all albums that have banjo vs. all those listed above that don't and it will be clear ... the non-banjo recordings are only the exceptions that prove the rule true.

- Benignus

[Garrett]

JLB,

I agree with that!

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

So, when we finally get this bluegrass thing defined to where we can all agree on it, then what?

[doanepoole]

We realize that Skruggs-style banjo gives us a headache, and start playing Old Time music! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mrbook]

Brother duets are not bluegrass - Monroe created his style to go beyond what he and Charlie were doing. I also think I read a comment of his later in life to the effect that after creating his own style, the music he played with his brothers (Birch, too) was too old-fashioned for his tastes.

I think that Manzanita is bluegrass without a banjo, but I can't name another album that I would say the same about. Tony Rice and the others did something special on that album that no one else has duplicated.

[GTison]

Yes it can be bluegrass but not the BEST bluegrass.

[Peter Hackman]

I love this discussion.

Bluegrass is banjo music. Period. I'll pass on the wink-wink to the oxymoron.

You can have a bluegrass band without a mandolin, but take away the banjo and you'll have a hard time convincing anyone it's a bluegrass band except the press which doesn't know better and doesn't really need to know better I suppose you could say. You can leave out a fiddle, dobro (ie, resophonic guitar for the politcally correct), even a bass and it's still a bluegrass band as long as there's a banjo doing the three-finger roll. Having a banjo in a band doesn't automatically make it a bluegrass band, ever. But no mandolin player, even Monroe can make an acoustic ensemble into a full-fledged bluegrass band without a banjo player standing next to him... I think I just flamed a few people with that statement. Heh.

Bill Monroe may have been the father of bluegrass music, but Earl Scruggs was the gasoline that made it a wildfire. Almost anyone over 21 has heard Dueling Banjos or Foggy Mountain Breakdown. They may not know the name of the song but they'll recognize it. Play Rawhide for that same group and you'll get blank stares.
The first edition of the Blue Grass Boys
(1939) didn't have
a banjo.

Monroe emphasized the beat of Blue Grass and he
defined it with the two pieces he played on
guitar on the Victor sessions, Mule Skinner Blues and
Dog House Blues (Neil Rosenberg overlooked
the guitar on the latter piece, but
the beat is the same and I don't hear any mandolin).
The second version
of Blue Moon of Kentucky has no banjo, at least
I don't hear it. But it has the beat (in 3/4
and 2/2).

Then there is the first gospel album which has neither
banjo nor fiddle but the basic drive and beat of
BG is there all the same (except on Wayfaring
Stranger where I *believe* the beat is carried
by a piano, again something that Rosenberg overlooked
in his excellent discography).

But who cares about labels? What once attracted me
to BG was the way the musicians interacted,
*all the time*,
very intutive, head arranged,
and with
clearly defined roles for each instrument.
I hear similar values in lots of today's acoustic music.
Is the Flinner trio Bluegrass? David Grier's
explorations? Early Dawg? Thile http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??

I don't care. Listen.