newbie in need of advice

[riverbliss]

Hey there. I've done some searching and have pretty much found answers to most of my questions, however I've still got a couple more I was hoping some of you might be able to answer:

1. I've been playing fiddle for a while and have decided to try my hand at mando as a second instrument primarily because the two are related. How much of what I already know for fiddle is applicable to mando? What are some of the differences I can expect / how easily will it be to adjust to the change?

2. I don't actually have an instrument yet, but I'm aware of what I ought to be looking for. What I want is a good, beginner mando that isn't too expensive & will allow me to try it out & experiment and then get something nicer if I want to keep playing. I'm leaning towards f-styles, since I play old-time/bluegrass, but I've heard a-styles are generally less expensive. What would be a good make/model to look at that would have a nice sound & not be too hard to play but also not too pricy and what would be some to avoid? Also what $$ range can I expect to be looking in?

Thanks in advance,
River

[jiffyfeet]

The big difference between A and F mandos is fancy woodwork. With an F style, the extra money is mostly paying for the extra time it takes to make the fancy scroll and all that. You aren't going to notice a difference in the sound of an A vs an F. This is why most people here will tell you that if your budget is limited, you should get an A. You will be getting a much better mando for the same money. You can play bluegrass and old time all day long on an A, and anybody with their back to you would never know the difference.

[duuuude]

Being an experienced player, make sure you go for the most bang for yer buck, you'll be glad later whether you decide to sell it or keep it. F or A style really is more a matter of personal preference, or "scroll envy" as it were, either is fine for general bluegrass. Then start moving all them fiddle tunes in yer head to the new mando, you should be up & runnin' in no time!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[doanepoole]

The biggest difference I think will be in picking vs. bowing.

People transitioning from guitar to mando usually don't have a problem here because they are already used to using a plectrum.

Try and get your downstrokes and upstrokes as close as possible and run through some picking drills every time you practice. Start slow to make sure you're getting it right.

The Good News: Picking, at least for me, is a whole heck of alot easier than bowing.

Most of the left hand stuff will translate, with the added benefit of frets on the mando so you don't have to be quite as precise with your fingering, but try to place your fingers as close to the fret as possible without the pressure being actually on top of the fret.

All the fingerboard knowledge you have will probably translate right over otherwise.

[jom]

Is it really true that its difficult to hear the difference between an A and an F? It always seems like the Ferns are always louder than my A5-L, but that could be my envy.

It seems much easier to go from fiddle to mandolin than the other way around, although its hard to make a direct comparison since you either do one or the other. Right hand technique is always a challenge, and pick direction is always a biggie. But I've seen fiddle players pick up a mandolin for the first time and...well...piss me off with their proficiency.

[jlb]

Consensus seems to be that wood quality, bracing, and sound holes being equal, there should be little difference between an A and F model.

I don't know what the truth is. I find generally that "A-4" models sound better than "F-4" models, and that "F-5" models sound better than "A-5" models...how much of this is pychological I couldn't say.

[grafik-obsessions]

there's a nice gibson a-9 on ebay for 499.00. #if money doesn't bother you go for the name that the pros use.

[futrconslr]

I think you can tell the difference. I have never heard an a that sounded like a f. Maybe its in my mind....My grandfather had a mando made out of a cigar box that he could wail on.....but it didnt sound like an f....didnt sound like an a either! lol I still cant listen to anyone play "Soldier's Joy" It just doesnt sound the same.

[John Ritchhart]

Well, the scroll and the points are solid wood, so not part of the sound chamber but maybe the added mass makes a difference. I think it's just preference of how it looks. I like the scroll for strap hangin'.

[jom]

riverbliss,
You're allowed your personal preference, but don't be *afraid* to lean towards an A, especially in the beginner price range. I love my A, and it sounds like (no pun intended) any differences in actual sound between A and F, are probably subtle. You won't have any problems playing bluegrass with an f-holed A.

[August Watters]

Sounds like the "A" advocates need to weigh in here -- there's a whole school of thought that A models sound better. Of course that's just another subjective judgment, but you should know there's an argument to be made.

I think the biggest reason for the expectation of a difference between A and F sounds is the construction methods of the old Gibsons -- there are real differences in the sound and playability of old Gibson As vs. Fs -- and so we expect to find these differences in other As and Fs too. Of course as has been noted here, there's no good reason why these differences must occur in new instruments.

It's clear F's cost a lot more than A's, and they have more fancy woodwork -- I'm certainly hooked on the scrolled look. But IMHO, unless you have at least $2k or so to spend, you'll probably get better tone and playability with an A. There are a whole bunch of professional-level A's out there now in the $1k range.

August Watters

[PCypert]

Will post another nod towards the A style. Will also say that since you're considering old time I've heard a lot of people say they play oval hole for these. Not sure on this. I personaly do and would. If you want the option of bluegrass or want to play bluegrass heavily will factor in to the decision. For instance if you want a mando that can do bluegrass, but sounds sweet in other styles also that's a completely different box than a straight bluegrass mando if that makes sense. If you're doing a lot of chording and are playing in a sensible group (meaning no banjo) an oval hole mando will have nice tone and sustain, but the f hole style will have more cut. Are you lost? A Rigel or Breedlove are good all purpose mandos in the around a 1000 dollar range. The Gibson A9 is considered a good bluegrass mando in this range. A little bit more at 1200 and you could have a used Old Wave that is considered an excellent Old Time mando. Hope that helped,
Paul

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

PCy says something important - what music(s) are you going to play? An A, with f-holes, is a powerfully versatile instrument that can fit into many genres. So can an F, but for the more $ it may be more for one's own contentment, at least until reaching a more proficent skill level. There are subtilties, of course, depending on instrument. Some F's can sound like nothing else. But also bowlbacks and the flatbacks have characteristics that are subtle (bowls are a wee bit more obvious) but unique. When, and if, you choose to be pro (or playing with professional musicians regularly), you will have figured out what you need (even if you don't know what you're doing sometimes!)
Other info here in the thread is very good. I I also would suggest that, with your budget, look for a good quality A, enjoy it, and you'll get to be a good player fast.
-----------
rasa

[riverbliss]

This is all really great info!
I don't know anything about the big name makers at all but just assume some are better than others? My general rule for fiddles is to play everything & go for the one that sounds best. Do you guys have one model you would really reccomend as a good place to start?
Also what are some good, basic beginner books? I'm hoping to be able to just pick it up and run with it since I'm already versed in fiddle tunes, but I'll need to have some idea exactly how things work seeing as how I've never picked or played anything with frets. Anything in particular you might suggest?
Thanks again! This is all really helpful

[mmukav]

Riverbliss--I don't think you'll have any problems with the frets. The fingering is the same as the fiddle and you'll adjust quickly. The right hand is another matter, a friend of mine switched from banjo to guitar and had a heck of a time holding onto the pick. I would suggest one of the instructional DVD's or videos if that's an option. It's just easier seeing how the instrument is held, how to hold the pick, strumming techniques, etc. Look at Elderly Instruments' site, they have a great selection. As far as a mando goes, if you can't make the jump to an F as far as price, get a decent A. A Gibson A9, Rigel, Breedlove, they're all good. I have a Gibson A9 and it's sounds great. I play bluegrass and some old-timey stuff and it does both well.

[riverbliss]

One last questions:
I've looked at some of the ones you guys have mentioned and they're much more $$ than I really have. My price range is probably around $500-600 at the most (maybe a tad more if I trade a fiddle); I was hoping I'd be able to get a semi-decent first mando with that. I'm not looking to go out and play professionally or anything, maybe jams at the most, I'm really jsut looking for something semi-nice I can learn on. Do the ones you guys have been talking about really out perform those in this range by that much and I should try to save up the extra bucks or are there good, less expensive instruments as well?

[Bowzette]

In the $500-$600 range i would sugges a well made flat top. These are not good for bluegrass but will play everything else well for your purposes and are usually preferred for Old Time and Celtic. Mid-Missouri (Mid Mo) and Wil Parsons are examples. You can by a used Mid Mo or Flatiron Cadet used for $300-$400. These are US made, well made, sound and play well. There a lots of articles in the archives about the Mid Mo.

[ira]

playability, tone and projection are of the utmost importance, but the look of your instrument may be important to you as well. for some it doesn't matter, for others it enhances the experience. in your price range, an 'a' will be a better buy, and you can certainly get a decent used arch top, or a really nice flat top. however, if you crave a scroll, a used michael kelly will probably suit you fine. great specs for the price, and mk players rave about them (see current thread, and archives).

just my 2

[ira]

ps- just reread your orig. post. if you want to play bg even half the time you play, whether 'a' or 'f' style be sure to get f-holes and an arched top. i love my mando, but have an induced top (kind of like a souped up flat top with a small arch front and back) with an oval hole . it has incredible ring and sustain- a no no for bg. you want all those quick little notes to sound clean and for your chop to bark out. a flat top with oval hole will muddy that up to some degree, and not give you the sound you crave for any bg tunes.

i guess that makes my 4 cents

[atetone]

It is often advised on this board to buy the most mandolin that you can possibly afford. I think that this is especially important in the under a grand mandolins.
The reasons for this are that if you buy too cheap an instrument, then it is not as playable and you will not progress as fast and may lose interest; and inevitably you will want to move up in quality, so you don't want that to happen right away.
The Rigels, Breedloves, A-9 S (ARCHTOPS) and the Flatiron Cadets, Mid-mos (flatops) are all good mandos and will fit your needs for some time to come. Keep your eyes open for any of these. Sometimes they go for really good prices on the used market.
Watch the Classifieds on this board for a while to guage pricing. Once in a while some good ones pop up. E-bay is good to watch too in order to get an idea on pricing. More risky to purchase there though. I do but am very careful. Lots of scams and uninformed sellers.

[doanepoole]

if you want to play bg even half the time you play, whether 'a' or 'f' style be sure to get f-holes and an arched top

ira,

I'd like to take the opportuinity to very respectfully sorta disagree with you here.

I went through 3 f-holed mandos before I realized that an oval-hole was the sound I was after, bluegrass or otherwise. A typical oval-hole, arched-top mando gives me a tonal pallate that to me is just much much deeper and broader than any f-holed instrument I have ever come across, and I must have lucked out because I ended up getting one that is loud and projective enough to hang in all the 10-15 instrument ensemble jams I go to.

Just posting this because I see alot of posts here stating that if you play bluegrass, you must get an f-holed mando, advice that I once listened to, and ultimately found faulty...just want to keep all thos advice-seekers mind open to all possibilities...NO OFFENSE INTENDED.

Your oval-hole loving, f-hole respecting pal, doane

[ira]

no offense taken. as you were, just stating my opinion based on my mando. i saw folks suggesting flattop ovals, and for me, though i love that sound, i wouldn't want to hear someone playing lots of notes rapidly or try to chop with it. just my opinion so i stated it. i think its great for our newbie friend ot hear a variety of opinions.

ira

even though i'm right:p

[riverbliss]

Thanks guys, this has been most helpful.
Now I have to start looking around town & see what I can find.

[frets1]

Its true that A's are far less expensive and there are great sounding A's out there. However, you will want an F mandolin very quickly. Especially since your a fiddle player. A mandolins and traditional bluegrass just don't go together. Also, you don't have to go out and spend a ton of $ on an F mandolin. You can find nice Kentucky - Morgan Monroe - Michael Kelly mandolins in the $500-$600 range. When you do get ready to step up, you already have a nice backup mandolin. How do I know this? BEEN THERE-DONE THAT!

Life is short. PICK HARD http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[jiffyfeet]

A mandolins and traditional bluegrass just don't go together.
Frets, can you please tell us why you have this opinion? I know many share it, I just like to hear people's reasoning.

[jom]

I am also curious where the opinion *that A's and traditional bluegrass don't go together* comes from. What should the traditional bluegrass image be?

I'm no authority, but I will have to disagree with that opinion.

[duuuude]

Traditional, shmaditional, it's supposed to be about the music. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[mandodude]

It always seems like the Ferns are always louder than my A5-L, but that could be my envy.
...or it could be because of where you are relative to the mando. The design of a mandolin is such that the most effective projection of sound will be through the soundhole(s), outward and away from the mando, and not through the rim, upward toward the player. Some builders are taking steps to try to correct this situation - case in point: Dale Ludewig (DeKalb, IL) builds an Emory Lester A-Model mandolin with a sound port located in the bass-side rim to direct some of the sound upward toward the player... interesting design!

Try this: Give another picker your A5-L while you play his (her?) Fern... I'll bet you find your A (in the hands of the other guy) now seems to be the "box to beat!"

;-)

[jom]

Man--you are so right about that one. I love giving my mandolin to someone to play because I never hear it from the front.

You're also right in that I always forget that fact when I listen to other folks. I'll try and run your little experiment, except that I wonder if the other guy might pick the A just a little softer so as to make his F sound just a little better http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I think I'd get a kick out of that Lester A model. What a neat idea. Its a shame that musicians often don't get to hear the fullness of their own sound...like being on stage, and not ever getting to hear the mains.

[peterbc]

I'm always shocked when someone else plays my mandolin, it's a loud little sucker. Sometimes I can hear it, but I remember one time the sound just shot out and nothing was coming back, I could barely hear myself so I was pounding as hard as I could (not necesarilly a good instinct, but...) So I asked a banjo player, and he had no trouble hearing me behind his little monster...

I don't think that an F is better than an A. I've heard some great A's and the only difference is the expensive strap holder and the points which are easy to bonk on things! (I do have an F though and love it but I'd have nothing against a good A style)

Peter

[riverbliss]

I would love to add to the discussion, but my fiddle blasts right into my left ear. I like to let other people play it just so I can hear over it..
But back to mando questions, I'm looking at either a Mid Mo or a MK. There's a shop nearby that has an MM M3 and several of the MKs (firefly custom, legacy O, legacy solid). I'll be heading over their soon to check them out, but was wondering what the consensus is - is one of these more reputable than the other? What are the differences between the MKs? how do the O and f holes affect the sound? Also, this shop has an Orpheum f-style which is in my price range. Does anybody know anything about this, who makes it? how does it compare to the MM and MK? I'd like to have some info on it before I have to make a decision..

[jlb]

riverbliss,

I think for the most part the MKs, MMs, Kentuckys, and other imports are usually a crap shoot. Your are wise to go in and try them out firsthand.

My advice, just try all the available ones and pick the one that grabs you most. If none of them do, be patient and look elsewhere for mandos to try.

[Django Fret]

riverbliss, try to play as many different mandolins as you can within your price range. You will find there is quite a difference in playability and sound available. There are also a lot of variables that can affect the sound such as strings and picks. If you find one you like, there are probably ways to get the sound more like what you want.

You might also see if you can find a GOOD quality Strad-o-lin (sometimes called Strat-o-lin) and they can be found for prices well under your budget. You may want to get a good, professionally done set-up for any mandolin you decide on.

As a fiddle player who started playing mandolin about 4 years ago, I have found the Cafe to be a great place to learn about this instrument. Just be careful not to get too addicted to it!

[Dioptase]

Riverbliss--
The idea that A style mandolins and traditional bluegrass do not go together comes from the fact that Bill Monroe played an F style mandolin for most of his career... I have a photo of him playing a 2 point epiphone.
If you're idea of playing traditional bluegrass means that you wear a stetson hat, farm when you're not touring, and use your band as a travelling amateur ballteam, then you'd probably be unhappy with anything but an F style mandolin.
If you want the best bluegrass sound from your instrument, aren't really so concerned with recreating the career of another man, and don't wanna sell the farm to buy a nice instrument.. then an A style might work well.
On the other hand, in your price range.. one might argue that for playing traditional american music, such as bluegrass.. that the most authentic choice would be an American-crafted A style instrument over a Korean or Chinese F style such as the Michael Kelly.
My advice, in your price range.. is to find a used Mid Missouri for 350$. Or even better advice-- save a couple of hundred more than your 600$ limit and look for a used A9 or a used Rigel or Breedlove. I got my A9 for 875$.
Any of these instruments should keep you playing happy for a long time to come. I prefer the A9 for bluegrass tone, though the Breedloves and Rigels do feel awfully comfortable in your hand.
I bought a Mid Mo M1 as a camping instrument, but I find myself playing it in almost all situations. I really enjoy the little guy. I don't think it's true you can't chop or play fast on them. I do it all the time. (laughs) But you won't be heard in a bluegrass band. Playing with a couple of friends in a moderate setting, it's perfect.
I started my mandolin Journey a year ago with a Michael Kelly, which hasn't been out of it's case in quite a few months. It feels heavy in my hands, and the tone is weak and lacks warmth. I find the tone on the midmo to be subdued, but has warmth as well as some nice cutting highs. The A9 is powerful and woody.. also seems to convey a warmth and darkness to the tone.
Micah