Classifieds Usage Change [Archive]

Scott Tichenor

Apr-15-2006, 2:06pm

I'm wondering what opinions are on use of the classifieds, in particular, that of sellers deleting and resubmitting their ads ever few days so they are bounced to the top. Personally this hit a breaking point for me yesterday, hence the note posted at the top of the classifieds page saying:

----
***Sellers*** please! Give us a rest. Please stop resubmitting the same ads every few days. This is a very tiresome practice that has gotten out of control.
----

I've never really attempted to enforce a policy of denying this but after years of watching it, I'm now strongly considering it. In short, there's enough of it that it's watering down Keyword Notifications and generally cramming too much information in that most of us have already seen. Yes, I realize if you're a seller there is a perceived advantage to this practice, but imagine all 300+ being resubmitted every few days or even once a week. It'd be a mess.

Are we really doing the community a favor by allowing quick resubmissions, or are we just watering down content and turning this into a retail center for some? My personal feeling is this practice isn't healthy.

Is the 30 & 60 option too long? Too short?

bluegrassjack2

Apr-15-2006, 2:18pm

I'd like to see a dealer area and a different area for us people who are Cafe members and just common folks to submit theirs.
I dont think dealers should use the cafe classifies for sales, they should have their own web sites and/or other venues for selling their stuff.

kww

Apr-15-2006, 2:19pm

60 days is fine.

jmkatcher

Apr-15-2006, 2:21pm

I like the idea of a separate dealer area for instruments (and possibly another for assorted rubber goods with magical properties http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif). The current intervals seem reasonable to me. I would like to see a larger size retrieval option than the current 25. It's quite tedious to browse back to the beginning with the current system.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-15-2006, 2:31pm

Separate dealer area is also something under consideration. Personally I don't have a problem with dealers selling used instruments, but seeing every new Brand X mandolin that comes in a store when dozens of dealers carries them--I have mixed feelings about that. OK if done tastefully, but therein lies the problem with a minority.

By the way, whilst I'm grumping about this, I'm also doing a bit of work on the classifieds trying to reduce the overall download time and usability. Whether I'm making progress is an opinion everyone's entitled to. So far, today, I can see measurable progress so as long as it's moving in the right direction that's the goal.

Greenmando

Apr-15-2006, 2:43pm

I think the 30 day is fine, I had wondered if sellers had found a 3 day option. I have no problem with dealers in the classifeds in moderation.

loosej

Apr-15-2006, 2:45pm

how about you can only list the same instrument once every 14 days or so.

jmkatcher

Apr-15-2006, 3:05pm

How about adding auto-promotion to the top on renewal. A free bump after 30/60 days seems like a reasonable thing to have.

man doh

Apr-15-2006, 3:18pm

I'll admit I bump my ads only if something changes like price. How about a spot for instruments and a spot for other stuff. I hate when you post an ad and a day later its on page 3 because someone sells a case, dvd, and a pack of strings and your knocked off.

GTison

Apr-15-2006, 3:31pm

how bout a larger first page or larger pages and less of them. I don't mind the dealers most times being in the same line up. I understand the 1st page bump because I many times don't go beyond the 1st page. Or maybe a division by price... sometimes it's entertaining like the guy with the Blonde 'master model" that thing was re-listed umpteen times. ( May be on there now)

JimW

Apr-15-2006, 3:35pm

Scott, I've sold a few items on the classifieds here. It's a great service, but as you have stated, it can be abused. I think there is a definate advantage to having your item listed on the first page, but a constant delete, re-submit can get tiresome. Here are my suggestions:

1. Make the front page list more than 25 ads, something like 50 to 75 maybe. That would give the sellers ad more time on the front page.

2. Only allow a resubmission of an existing ad if the price has been reduced. Maybe have a resubmission area from the "edit" ad to do this.

Just a couple thoughts.

Jim Watts

sgarrity

Apr-15-2006, 3:59pm

I've bought and sold quite a few mandolins off the classifieds. They are a great service. I usually let my ad get to page 4-5 before re-submitting. I'd like to see more ads per page and the ability to re-submit maybe every 15 days?

Jerry Byers

Apr-15-2006, 4:10pm

I personally bump my one ad every 30 days - didn't think it was causing a problem. My personl gripe is that most the stuff that is 30 days or older is not available. I have contacted several people towards the end of the stack and get no response or told that it was sold a long time along. People are not cleaning off their old ads. I have also seen the same item posted 2 and 3 times - somebody needs to educate people how they can edit their own ads.

I think 60 days serves no purpose, unless you could set up an area for repeatable items. Both Steve and I are not dealers (I could be wrong with him) and we like to keep our harmonic suppressors listed. I know a couple of folks that do straps like to do the same thing.

I know I might get shot for this suggestion, but have you ever considered charging for ad submissions? I wouldn't have a problem for paying a buck or two to list items and keep them auto-bumped to the top.

Also, is there any way to add some other categories? It makes sense to me to have an area for mandos and one for parts. Maybe one for services, etc.

Ted Eschliman

Apr-15-2006, 4:20pm

I'm glad to see the "reposting" issue addressed. There are a few individuals abusing this, and it creates a visceral temptation to escalate as one "competes" with new entries. This is most definitely abuse when the relisting is just that, "relisting," especially before the first 30 days. Let the new entries have a chance...

As far as a seperate "Dealer" section, c'mon!... Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Some of us dealers do exercise disgression advertising ONLY singular and niche gear, and don't abuse the Classifieds by posting a laundry list of inventory. Maybe I'm narrow, but to me, isolating my goods in a seperate advertising wasteland would be as much a disservice to potential buyers as it would to me, the seller. (We already have the tag "Dealer" in our ad; isn't the reader obligated to put forth a little of his/her own discretion?)

steve V. johnson

Apr-15-2006, 4:45pm

I like Jim Watts' suggestions, above. When I've listed on the Cafe Classifieds, I've been pleasantly surprised at getting replies long after the listing. (It seemed a long time to me... <GG>)

I haven't found bumping to be useful, therefore.

I'd like to see more ads per page. I feel that dealers use the classifieds quite well and with good restraint now, and many thanks to them for that.

Other than that, I sympathise with your angst over the recent blitz.

Thanks,

stv

red7flag

Apr-15-2006, 4:47pm

I just feel that dealers are a different animal. Ted you are a class act, and I buy your picks, a lot. I just don't want to wade through dealers. When I want that I go to the regular web. I think having a section for non-instrument items and for dealer items would be excellent. That way you can more easily find what you are looking for.
Thank you Scot. The classified are a great service.
Tony

pmadison

Apr-15-2006, 4:54pm

This topic seems to have come to a fork in the road, as far as the replys. One fork: reposting to the top of the list. The other fork: dealers.
To draw a conclusion, do dealers abuse the most? Probably
Craigslist doesn't allow dealers to list, and they allow listing for 7 days. The problem is that someone has to constantly monitor the listings scanning for the dealer that will try and list. It happens. Alot.
If one is brave enough to leave the cafe, do a quick search for the yadayada mando u r looking for and walla....10 thousand dealers.
My vote.....no dealers and shorter days.

sunburst

Apr-15-2006, 5:12pm

Both Steve and I are not dealers (I could be wrong with him) and we like to keep our harmonic suppressors listed. I know a couple of folks that do straps like to do the same thing.
Perhaps there should be a section for things like that, where the ads run all the time, with perhaps a minimal monthly(?) charge.

I have listed a mandolin for sale twice since I've been a member, and didn't sell either one. I'm glad I wasn't charged for the priviledge of listing them.
That seems like a totally different thing from listing an accessory on a regular basis.
I've also listed tailpieces about twice. If there was a section for accerssories, where the ads ran all the time, that would seem to me to be a better place for them, and I wouldn't mind paying a minimal fee. It could be a book-keeping nightmare, though.

As for dealers, I think the disclaimer is enough. No need for a separate section if they are listing an instrument once in a while.

The problem is: there is no easy way to require courtesy, or enforce the requirement. Removing ads after the item has sold, refraining from excessive "bumping", just common courtesy there.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-15-2006, 5:19pm

Let me clarify a few things. I have no problem with an ad that has hit 30 days, been auto-deleted by the software and then gets resubmitted. That's the way it should work, conceivably. I'm tired, and I suspect many of you are, of seeing the same ad over and over and over again, every week and sometimes less. I've seen people bump them back to the top every other day, which I typically will call someone on. Now throw in people that sell a product, say straps as an example, and they have them listed in four different places with slight modifications. And then the overly aggressive store owner or private collector that needs to list five instruments in a row in five different ads. No wonder ads disappear off the front page so fast.

I suspect this is just something we need to police a bit and get it back in line. I can't point fingers really because this has existed for a long time. I think it's time it changed though.

Making more than 25 on a page. In full view mode how many of you are willing to wait for that download on a modem? The current in full view mode showing 25 is approaching 425K. I have plans to code this in a fashion that's less size consuming but it's still a lot of data and will still be a big wait time in the browser.

Still mostly good observations, although I don't get it when people say "I never look past the first page". That's a *choice*.

mrmando

Apr-15-2006, 5:25pm

As one of the dealers who was causing the problem, I'd like to publicly apologize and solemnly swear from now on to follow the 30-day rule -- or whatever rules are established. Until now I hadn't considered the negative side of frequent reposting, so I'd like to thank y'all for bringing it to my attention.

Vote: 30-day rule, maybe take away the option to post ads in more than one category. (Right now, dealers can list an item as both "Dealer" and "For Sale." Make them list only as "Dealer," and then people who don't want to look at dealer ads don't have to.)

Scott Tichenor

Apr-15-2006, 5:30pm

You weren't causing the problem, Martin. Period.

As I said earlier, I'm not pointing fingers. I think everyone in general will benefit from allowing these ads some breathing rooms.

ninevah

Apr-15-2006, 5:44pm

otterly2k

Apr-15-2006, 5:47pm

I think a separate area for accessories would be worthwhile. I also think that there should be a place for people who want to list something always for sale (such as the people who always sell straps or silencers or a certain line of products) and ask them to pay a moderate fee for a permanent listing in that place... so they don't have to post and repost in the time sensitive classifieds.

With reminders for people to remove sold items, I see no reason why ads should not run their full term and move down the pages unless there is some significant change in the content. There IS a search feature and people should use it. More listings on the front page would be helpful with any of these suggestions.

thanks, Scott, for all you do, and your constant interest in making the Cafe the best place it can be.

John Flynn

Apr-15-2006, 5:50pm

Otterly:

I was just writing a suggestion about having a seperate section for accessories when yours came up. I second your suggestion!

JEStanek

Apr-15-2006, 5:51pm

Would it be feasible to make subsections of the For Sale area (e.g., Instruments, Gear, Videos/CDs). #I know I can use the search function to narrow it down if this option doesn’t work. #I’ve advertised twice. #Once for no result and another time I was able to sell my mandos. #I appreciate this service. #

I usually only go a couple of pages deep when browsing but I look all the time. #I’m like the kid with no money in a candy store!

I have noticed recently an ad that I had seen a few days ago getting freshly bumped. #I thought it was odd.

People can also utilize their signatures for things they make and promote. #Everyone also has the option to list a homepage as part of their profile where a commercial interest can be expressed.

Those are my thoughts as a frequent browser.

edit- third person in a row to be composing and posting at the same time... Accessories section!
Jamie

otterly2k

Apr-15-2006, 5:59pm

GMTA...:)

I think ninevah is on the right track... the only question is how many categories can something be listed in....with that many categories, I'd say two categories max.

Daniel Nestlerode

Apr-15-2006, 6:51pm

Wirth regard to the repost issue, I think a little extra policing is required. But I also think you can sweeten the pot a bit by reducing the 30/60 day terms to to 15/30. That way folks will need to take action after two weeks, and there may be less incentive to bump the ads up.

Suggestions:
1) remove the "details" column and put the link in the "subject" column
2) I like the idea of creating more sections (accessories different from instruments, etc.)
3) how about a more powerful search funtion to go along with the greater number of classified ad distinctions?
4) how about the ability to change the order of ads according to the different columns? (list alphabetically, by date, by photo availability, by category, etc.) this would ameliorate the urge to repost an ad because the "top" ad would be determined by the user rather than the programmer.
5) How about offering "sticky" ads for a small fee? The ads would appear in a separate column to the right or left and remain in their positions. When too many are submitted to maintain a single column on the first page, the fee is waived by virute of having the add fall off the front page. At this point, the seller has the option of reposting the ad (so it reaches the top) after a specified period of time, like 10 days.

Just some thought,
Daniel

ninevah

Apr-15-2006, 6:58pm

After bit more thought...

Categories

1. New Mandolins
2. Used Mandolins
3. Mandolin Accessories
4. Wanted
5. Trades
6. Lost or Stolen

Rules:
1. Only able to list in ONE category (debatable)
2. 30 days max then add gets auto back to top, one round trip. After 60 days add gets deleted
3. Seller can repost to top after 15 days, if the price is reduced.

Dfyngravity

Apr-15-2006, 7:16pm

I don't know if it can be done, I'm sure it could but might be difficult, but I like the idea of having different categories. Say if you clicked on "classifieds" you would get a page with a list of the different categories(Mandolins, Mandolin Accessories, Instuctional Material, ...ect) and then if you clicked on mandolins you would get a list of say all the builders in the eye candy section plus a link for "others" and that way you can search for exactly what you wanted. If you want a Gibson or Brentrup you just click on the link and see if anyone is selling one. If you click on Accessories you could have a list like tuners, picks, straps, cases, ...ect. Doing it that way the person listing will have more front page time becuase well sometimes there might only be 1,2 or maybe no other listings in their respective category.

Something like that might work well as far as keeping people from bumping their ads so much.

Greenmando

Apr-15-2006, 7:43pm

I kind of wish there was a way of having our cafe user name posted in the ad with our name. We all know each other so much by our id's instead of by name.

recklessmando

Apr-15-2006, 11:29pm

First off, the classifieds are a wonderful resource and mando life would be worse off without them. We're lucky indeed to have someone like Scott willing to offer this service and administer it at no official cost to the user. (Don't forget your donations).

I check the classifieds regularly, even though I'm hardly ever in the market. I love seeing what's for sale but I do get tired of the same stuff of the first page. I laugh to myself if one particular strap maker's ad isn't on page one, I figure his computer must have been down.

I've sold a couple instruments on the classifieds and when I posted the ads I let them maintain their position in the queue with no thought of bumping them up in line. Both eventually sold. I'm sure it's nice to be first in line all the time but shouldn't all three hundred forty something ads be equal? My biggest peeve with folks that perpetually bump their ads up is that they are in effect cutting in line in front of others who have just as much right to the spot. All those folks below you are trying to sell their merchandise too (well, except for those that don't delete their ad when it sells but that's a different issue). If your ad has been posted long enough that you are on page eight then that is your lot in the classified life. Buyers can still find your ad. The folks ahead of you deserve their shot. We all get our turn at the front and eventually get bumped further from the beginning but the ad is still in the classifieds. It's not hard to find; scroll down, page down, search (I search for specific brand names all the time, it's fun). I bet most people see ther ads early on and remember ones that catch their eye. They remember the one's that interest them and find them later on, wherever in the classifieds they may be. And, the classifieds wouldn't roll off page one so fast if new old ads didn't get bumped up.

I'm probably in the minority but I'm a proponent of severely limiting how much a person is allowed to actively manipulate their ad. Post it and let it ride. Edit it anytime you want but it stays in it's place in line. If I'm reading between the lines correctly, and I rarely am but it doesn't keep me from believing so, I saw eleven consecutive replies in this thread that all say, "What if I show EXTREME patience and wait 15 whole days until I bump my ad back to the top? Surely, that can't be an inconvenience?" All of these are in response to Scott's statement that "All you kind folks that are bumping your ads to the top every 15 days are getting to be a pain".

Well, I put in my 2c's a paragraph and a half ago and kept right on rambling so here's one last thought to leave on. The second best option for selling mandolins, (and the one that would be first if the cafe classifieds didn't exist),is what? I don't have any idea but I know it would be a huge step down and back and I wouldn't want to have to figure out what it might be. I hope the cafe classifieds are always around.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-16-2006, 12:46am

recklessmando, you get my vote for post of the year. Thanks for saying what I was unable to.

I typically don't post this late at night but we had another European scam <yawn> attempt around 11:30 and I'm just getting done reporting them to Yahoo Security (why is it always Yahoo they use?) and sending everyone they contacted a warning.

Personally, anything that gets bumped every week to me is a sign of someone you want to avoid buying from for one reason or another. But that's just my opinion.

Rich Michaud

Apr-16-2006, 5:23am

Hey Scott-I check your classifieds every day and have used it to buy and sell. It is a great service. I agree that re-submitting should be curtailed. If it is done at all it would make sense to do it only for material price reductions. That could be tested to see if it is abused.
Other changes are not necessary and only complicate something that should be kept simple. The time frames you have are fine. Rich Michaud

Ken Waltham

Apr-16-2006, 5:39am

I agree completely with Rich. I've used the classifieds a lot to feed my habit, and have found it near perfect. I have never, ever had to bump an add, and if folks want your mandolin, they'll find it no matter where it is in the queue.
Too many rules, too complicated will just screw up a really good thing.
Police the offenders, they are probably few.
BTW, an excellent resource, well administered!

Golman8

Apr-16-2006, 6:35am

Let me throw in another "well done Scott!" I love this site. I scan the ads every day first thing. I keep my mandolin right by my computer and the adds for those great mandolins inspire me to pick it up and practice frequently. I am not one to question a great resource, I'm sure anything can be improved, but don't have the faintest idea of how to do it. I find this site to be extremely easy to navigate and I have used it to both buy and sell a mandolin. The members, for the most part, are wonderful, helpful and interested in the mandolin as am I. I am extremly grateful for the time and energy that Scott and his people spend keeping this great resource going. It is "one of a kind!" G.B.

Jerry Byers

Apr-16-2006, 8:41am

One theme I'm observing in these thread is to only edit the ad if something has changed - I think that goes without saying. However, I would love to see some option to search on recently changed ads. I routinely see ads/mandos that I would like to acquire, but the price is too high for me - so it gets crossed off my list. I have no way of knowing when that ad/mando has been changed/reduced, except if the seller puts something in the title. So, if there was a way to search on these items or to somehow flag or put on icon on those items, I think it would eliminate some of the bumping going on.

Ted Eschliman

Apr-16-2006, 8:46am

One common practice on the Discussion board the bothers me is when a Newbie posts an "also-ran" question, a veteran Cafe-er will jump in with a rude "That's been discussed here already... Go do a search." Can't we help the new people by doing the search for them, and directing them? Perhaps the Newbie hasn't figured it out, and don't we want to avoid being an elitist crowd, expanding the mandolin community and opening up the club?

The disdain I see here for accessories is part of that very attitude. Okay, maybe a few individuals push it, but so what if a Fort Bryan strap or String Silencer has a perpetual presence here? Is a person that just discovered them mandolin recently and stumbled into our community going to know about these magnificent products? Don't they have a right to be exposed to Tone-gard for the first time?

I picked up a small wooden handmade mandolin tuning crank off the Classifieds about five years ago, and I use this every time I change strings; don't know what I'd do without it! Had I not read about it five years ago, I wouldn't be aware of it. I've only seen these sorts of things pop up a few times since then, and I think it's a disservice to new players that they don't know about them.

The Classifieds are more than just hawking goods. They are education and awareness. Is it a problem someone makes a buck along the way? These suggestions of singling out and charging only people with the perpetual ads for things YOU'VE already seen is in my opinion, selfish and short-sighted.

Please, let's not discourage the premier of some very useful products that can enhance our mandolinning. Maybe *you've* seen them, but someone new to our club hasn't.

Dfyngravity

Apr-16-2006, 8:48am

I completely agree too with the bumping thing. I have placed a couple ads here and only reposted when my ad ran out. There has to be a way to keep people from "cutting" in line like earlier said. I don't think it is fair for you Scott or anyone else to have to sit and monitor the classifieds like a kindergarden teacher keeping their kids in a single file line. I am sure you can sit behind you computor and watch for repeat posts and delete them as you see them but that shouldn't be and I don't believe you want it to be your job. You run an awesome site and I spend 3/4 of my internet time here at the cafe, and it has come a long way since I first started coming.

One thing I have heard my dad say a lot, and it seems to apply here, "you are not a child but if you want to be treated like one than I can treat you like one"...and it's kind of sad if it has to come down to that here on the cafe. And what's even sader is the fact that there is fraudulant ads going on in the classifieds.

Scott, I admire your work and absolutely love the site you have created here and I hope that this issue can be taken care of by the people here that use/abuse the cafe and classifieds....but if not than I guess you will have to do what you have to do, whatever that might be.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-16-2006, 9:01am

Interesting couple of ads just popped up this a.m.

"Re-listed at a reduced price"

Hmmm, boy, there's a practice that can easily be abused at a pace that will make deleting and bumping back to the top look mundane in comparison. Not saying the individual that posted that has that intention, but I did contact him to let him know that practice is under consideration.

Here's the scenario to get around what we're discussing and I can almost tell it's gathering steam: post at a price the seller knows is way too high, re-list it a bit lower, re-list it a third time, and finally re-list it at the rock bottom offer. Wow, appears we have a real bargain now and we only had to see it four times. No, not everyone is that dumb, but some are http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. Brings to mind Ginsu Knives. Enough. Thank you.

Right now I'm not buying this argument that you have to re-list at a reduced price. But watch. Now that someone has done it, others will soon follow. This may sound like a bunch of complaining from me and, well, I actually enjoy a bit of that, but getting this discussion out in the open is healthy. Bottom line is if you're looking for a place to fish for high prices, I suggest eBay. If you're looking for a safe place to deal honestly, hard to beat the classifieds price.

Ted, I have no problem with accessories, as long as they're true mandolin products. I think a category could be a possibility for those but not quite ready to do that yet. Still interested in watching this curious desire of a few to re-list ad nauseum play out. Because it's getting discussed doesn't mean it has stopped. Monday, when everyone rolls in to work, watch the re-listings roll in.

Bob DeVellis

Apr-16-2006, 9:11am

The fundamental problem is people trying to "game the system." Perhaps this thread will send the message that the community as a whole doesn't like that practice. Some people may not have realized that something they were doing was perceived as gaming the system and will desist. Others, unfortunately, will continue to find whatever loopholes they can exploit. Is there a way that the whole community can help police things to take some of the burden off the administrators without creating more, instead of less, chaos? Can people who see abuses document them and send the information to an administrator, or would that create more, rather than less, work?

Of the changes mentioned, I like the idea of being able to sort by column, e.g., price, brand-name (alphabetical), date of listing, new vs used, instrument style (A vs F vs bowlback vs CBOM) etc. It's user friendly and makes "getting to the top" sort of a non-issue. If I'm looking for a Zzyzick (made-up name) mandolin, then the end of the alphabetical listing is my hot zone, not the top. Part of submitting would be choosing a value for each column category (as in check boxes) that would then be used for sorting purposes.

sunburst

Apr-16-2006, 9:25am

These suggestions of singling out and charging only people with the perpetual ads for things YOU'VE already seen is in my opinion, selfish and short-sighted.
Ted, as you may know, I make and occasionally sell mandoilin tailpieces.
To the best of my recollection, I've run an ad for them twice. I feel like the "free" classifieds here are a real bargain and priviledge, and I would feel like I was abusing that priviledge if I perpetually kept an ad for tailpieces running, and taking up band width, for free. I'd feel better about it if there was a separate section, with a small fee, where I could run the ad, renew or not at my own discression, and know that people know where to look for that ad, rather than searching through the pages of regular classifieds.
If I have an odd tailpiece, set of tuners, or something like that, then the regular classifieds would seem to me like the proper place for that ad.

Of coarse, right now I'm almost out of tailpieces, need to make another batch, and wouldn't want an ad running anyway, but I think I'm seeing the issure of long running ads for accessories from another perspective.

Jakester

Apr-16-2006, 9:26am

Scott Tichenor

Apr-16-2006, 9:36am

The fundamental problem is people trying to "game the system." Perhaps this thread will send the message that the community as a whole doesn't like that practice. Some people may not have realized that something they were doing was perceived as gaming the system and will desist. Others, unfortunately, will continue to find whatever loopholes they can exploit. Is there a way that the whole community can help police things to take some of the burden off the administrators without creating more, instead of less, chaos? Can people who see abuses document them and send the information to an administrator, or would that create more, rather than less, work?
I'd prefer if there's a problem with a user that I get contacted. Most of the people using that area have good intentions. Just don't want someone self-appointing themselves as sherrif and me not knowing about it. And if someone is, I'll likely find out about it.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-16-2006, 9:39am

Commenting as a shopper not a seller, I think a repost should only be allowed if the price or something changes that effects the value.
You also need to remove deadend adds from the list. (items either sold or removed from the market)
Doing this, I think, over time, will make scrolling through the pages more productive as a shopper.

Baggin' Maggies in Richmond
Here's why I don't agree with that: reducing the price can then be justification for continuing this practice as is, but with a blessing. Ken W. had a good point that too many rules create their own problems. If everyone would act with a bit of discretion we won't need to discuss this again in the future.

And I remove items market SOLD daily. Not sure why people do that but if you want to be sure your ad goes bye-bye, mark it sold. It should be apparent that deleting the ad is an almost identical action to adding a SOLD sign. Never figured that one out. Must be some kind of badge of pride.

Chris Baird

Apr-16-2006, 10:04am

Most people will police themselves. They only need a bit more motivation and some, perhaps, need educating. I say just post a little page that folks have to read before they post or edit thier ad. Some thing simple that easily gets the point across. I doubt very many will re-list an add if they just read a little paragraph indicating that it isn't allowed. #When they really matter, rules need to be written out. I think all that needs to be done about the relising is to just officially make it against the rules and let folks know what the rules are. Or, if there are limitations then spell those out as well. Clarity is what we need.

acumando

Apr-16-2006, 10:07am

I have no way of knowing when that ad/mando has been changed/reduced, except if the seller puts something in the title. So, if there was a way to search on these items or to somehow flag or put on icon on those items, I think it would eliminate some of the bumping going on.
i use the search function and just search for "reduc" -- any ad that contains the text "reduce", "reduced" or "reduction" will come up.

Amandalyn

Apr-16-2006, 10:15am

I think the 30 day ad with a renewal option that automatically brings it to the top of the list is fair.
Thanks for all your hard work Scott!
Teri LaMarco

otterly2k

Apr-16-2006, 10:19am

Ted-
I want to be clear that I did not mean that people who continually post the same items should be penalized for doing so. But to me, there is a difference between someone who sells a personal item from time to time, and someone who is marketing products on a regular basis. Those of us who sell individual items are invited to tithe a portion of the sale to the Cafe...It seems to me that those who use this forum to market products on an ongoing basis might also be asked to support the forum on an ongoing basis... at a level commensurate with the scale of their business, of course (honor system is fine, let's not over-regulate).
And YES, there is grey area... but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone runs a retail operation to pay a modest fee for advertising their business.

The opportunity to have a standing ad in a place designated for such things seems to me to be an advantage to those who might want to sell straps and silencers and hats and who have small stores they want to promote... rather than having it cycle with time sensitive material. It would make it easier for shoppers to find... a marketplace for regular sellers. In addition to the service that classifieds offer to individuals who buy/sell intermittently.

Also...re: accessories... I certainly didn't intend to convey any disdain for accessories. I'm happy to have 'em and buy 'em frequently. Having them in a separate category would just make them easier to find. And would make it easier to look just at mandos when that's what you want, and just at accessories when THAT's what you want. Especially easier for newbies just finding the site... and easier to direct newbies to when they inquire on the message board.

GeoMandoAlex

Apr-16-2006, 10:21am

Otterly:

I was just writing a suggestion about having a seperate section for accessories when yours came up. I second your suggestion!
I can agree with a seperate category like:

Mandolins---2 subcategories 1-used 2-new
Mandolin related instruments***
Accessories
Wanted
Trades
Educational
Lost/Stolen

**bouzoukis, mandocellos, mandolas, etc.

Also, if possible, more than 25 listings and the naorrow down by column search.

trevor

Apr-16-2006, 10:37am

First, thanks to Scott for such a great resource, as a dealer and player over the pond I have posted adds three times (I think) and been successful once. I've also bought occasionally.

Anyways I noticed at the beginning of this thread a few people mentioned that they only view the first page. What I do if I'm looking regularly is to click on the first add each tome I take a look. This is then highlighted so you can go that far the next time you look. I expect a lot of folk do this already, just though I’d mention it for those who may not have thought of it.

I'd like to see accessories listed separately but its not a big deal. I don’t see why dealers shouldn’t list if they do it sensitively and declare that they are dealers. I expect most dealers who use the café adds are enthusiasts too, I certainly am and some that I see I know are too.

VictorLouis

Apr-16-2006, 10:43am

I'd like to see more groups

1. New Mandolins
2. Used Mandolins
3. Mandolin Accessories
4. Wanted
5. Trades
6. Lost or Stolen

Rules:
1. 30 days max then add gets auto back to top, one round trip. After 60 days add gets deleted
2. Seller can repost to top after 15 days.

Can't see that having a separate Dealer section does anything, as there is one there already, and you see dealers in both groups now.
I'm pretty much in line with Ninevah.:) I'd like to see the "For-Sale" section be limited to used instruments ONLY, be they posted by individuals or dealers. The DEALER section should be for NEW instruments. That alone would add clarity. The addition of an 'Other', or "Accessories" section for non-instruments would be a nice finishing touch.

I've got no problem with the 30-60 day renewals, and I've sold two instruments off of both, WELL after their initial postings. Tax refunds, I bet. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif If you'd program an automatic bump on each renewal, that would be a nice touch.

Thanks for providing the site, and the service!

Jerry Byers

Apr-16-2006, 11:44am

And I remove items market SOLD daily. Not sure why people do that but if you want to be sure your ad goes bye-bye, mark it sold. It should be apparent that deleting the ad is an almost identical action to adding a SOLD sign. Never figured that one out. Must be some kind of badge of pride.
I actually like this practice; probably for a different reason. The classifieds here represent a very unique community and serves as a resource both for sellers and buyers. I tend to watch items as they are sold because it gives me insight to what things are being valued at. I know keeping old ads would be a nightmare, but keeping old sale prices would keep current pricing in check. When you see a certain mando go X dollars multiple times, then when it is advertised at Y dollars, it gives you reason to do some smart research on it. Personally, I feel some of the items on the classifieds have extremely hopeful prices.

In regards to the statement about the classifieds being an alternative to eB*y - I actually think the classifieds offer way more than that venue. When we use the classifieds here, we are actually part of the community - sellers (and buyers) will know that you have to keep it on the up and up. I said it before, I have no problems with supporting this service financially.

In regards to my earlier statement about marking reduced items, I now agree that would probably cause more harm than good. However, is there any way to have a tracking function on ads, just like on the topics? We could tag ads that we want to watch and when changes are made to that ad, we would be notified.

Jakester

Apr-16-2006, 12:03pm

Wow. I'm ashamed to say I've just taken this site for granted till now. Following this thread has opened my eyes to the work and thought that must take place behind the scenes. Thanks.
The classified section here is by far better than EBAY. This is a very good place to browse for mando mechandise. Tweek it if you must, but please don't break it.

Baggin' Maggies in Richmond, VA

Daniel Nestlerode

Apr-16-2006, 12:04pm

I'm just wondering...
How many people use the RSS feed rather than the actual web page?

Did you know that if you're using Safari on a Mac you can view the RSS in your browser? Firefox has decent RSS viewing capability too. The new IE is in a beta mode, but it will have RSS capability as well.

Safari lets you re-sort the ads by a number of factors and lets you decide when to have them expire from your browser. Plus, it will show you how many new ads there are every half hour by adding an number next to the link in the bookmarks bar.

Also for Mac users out there is a café member's widget. It updates everytime a new news item or a new ad is placed on the café web site.

Just a heads up really. There are new and more convenient ways of accessing Scott's great content than using the web page. [OK Wow. I just wrote that there was something MORE CONVENIENT than a web site!]

Daniel

Larry Simonson

Apr-16-2006, 12:29pm

How about a radical remedy? Ads would automatically be shunted to trash after 1 week. That is typically 2 to 3 times longer than evalutation periods allowed by sellers. With 7 day ads sellers probably would update weekly and offer some competition for the current abusers.

The distinctions between unique vs. regularly available goods and instrumements vs. accessories are good ideas.

Final thought, Listing instruments 'for sale' in the "Wanted" category is not mannerly.

JEStanek

Apr-16-2006, 1:16pm

We actually have an "unofficial keeper of the prices" dataguy. MandoPete often provides a summary of what brand X has sold for over his period at the cafe. Its pretty extensive and always an interesting read when he posts them.

Jamie

Brian Ray

Apr-16-2006, 1:29pm

I actually like the way the classifieds are currently working but it's now clear to me that this is because of Scott's considerable efforts. I have noticed a lot of borderline, and some blatant, abuses but I have the luxury of looking the other way (yay me!). As for my usage, I look often enough that I'm only interested in the first page... and then, only up till the last post I remember reading. I also use the rss feed.

Some thoughts...

I would think anything that rewards a person to repost is a bad idea. Like most stupid humans, I love a sale... so I do like to see when prices are reduced but that said, most of the time the prices only drop from ridiculous to average. Disallowing this behavior would push folks to list items at a good price from the start.

Auto delete ads after 30 days seems totally reasonable.

I don't mind seeing what an item sold for... so marking an item sold or deleting it works for me.

The separate section I would endorse is an instrument only section. Most of the time this is all I want. I like to see them used mandos...

Adam Tracksler

Apr-16-2006, 4:50pm

I miss the view all option, I liked browsing that way, can that be brought back?

jaizbones

Apr-16-2006, 5:16pm

I did not read all the responses but the first thing I thought when I saw your note on the classifieds was " why not charge" like a nominal sum like a Thrifty Nickel. Nothing wrong with that. Make some cash and weed out the weenies,

Scott Tichenor

Apr-16-2006, 6:29pm

I miss the view all option, I liked browsing that way, can that be brought back?
Still there. I'd suggest you make a bookmark for that.

fiddler

Apr-16-2006, 6:34pm

I've used the classified ads both to buy and sell and I want to see it remain useful.

I think a thirty day enforced wait for relisting would be reasonable, even if there is a change (the seller can always edit). Dealers being included is OK with me.

fatt-dad

Apr-16-2006, 7:27pm

I'm with recklessmando who just places the ad and let's it run its full course. I considered it the rules of the site and just being a nice guy. Even when I reduced a price, I just edited my ad and stated in the line "reduced price". I've sold maybe a dozen mandolins or so using the classifieds and never had to "bump".

fatt just-back-from-spring-break dad

Philip Halcomb

Apr-16-2006, 7:42pm

I browse the classifieds on almost a daily basis because good deals do pop up. I think a lot of good suggestions have been made. I've sold about 4 items on the classifieds during the couple of years I've been using the cafe. One thing is, I've always kind of did what I saw the frequent classified posters doing right or wrong. For instance, I was an offender that put the sold sign on my first ad (because you used to see that a lot), Scott called me on it and I never did it again. I also was a dork and neglected to read the rules and listed an illegal item on the classifieds for which I was called on for it too. Mistakes do happen. I recently sold a mandolin on the classifieds, reposted it 2 times when I dropped the price because I had a time sensitive need for the scratch. If my need hadn't been time sensitive and I was selling it for the heck of it I wouldn't have changed the price and let the ad just run. I assumed that clicking the renew button would bump it back to top, because hey, someone might have seen my ad and said, "Well that's a little high for me, boy if it was a few c-notes lower I'd probably go for it". Depending on the item value can be subjective. But all in all I sold a great mandolin to a great person and the content catered www.mandolincafe.com had made it a lot easier for me. It's a great service. Now that I know about other people's feelings regarding "bumping" ads, I certainly won't ever do it again. I just wanted to get that out there. I know your not pointing fingers Scott but I sincerly apologize for those offenses.

My suggestions are that a couple new categories as mentioned would probably benefit buyers and sellers. Secondly, if there was a seperate field for price in the submit ad form that could help to do this. When you edit your ad and change the price, if you click to use one of your renews it would bump the ad back to top. If you choose to not click renew but just change the price it stays where it is in the queue.

Something like:

If PRICE = PRICE then stayPut
If PRICE != PRICE & reNew = FALSE then stayPut
If PRICE != PRICE & reNew = TRUE then goUpTop

That way your using up one of your renews but the frequent classified browsers get the opportunity to see it again. That would make it work a little better for some people I suspect, but hey everyone's got their own opinions and I'm sure Scott will come up with a good solution. One thing is jerks like me that are always in a hurry need to take the time and READ THE RULES!!!

Scott Tichenor

Apr-16-2006, 9:52pm

I've decided to go ahead an put a ban on the practice of bumping ads in less than 30 days. Here are the revised posting guidelines (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?print_guidelines_page_button=on) and I want to thank everyone for their input. Ultimately I think it's going to be a lot easier for everyone to browse the classifieds as a result. I realize not everyone will be in favor of this but it's not always possible to make everyone happy.

One good thing out of all of this is that there were a lot of small changes made overall to the classifieds as a result of this and I think in the long run these are all positive changes. Please feel free to continue discussing this if you wish as the input is appreciated, and read.

Jonathan Reinhardt

Apr-17-2006, 7:25am

Thanks, Scott, for all your efforts to improve the Cafe and it's classifieds. Hopefully your life will also be improved.

Whatever you did in the past day or two, however, has caused the classifieds no longer to load on my computer (possibly due to Javascript error). I use very old Mac OS, so I am in the smallest minority, but thought I would bring it to your attention.

rasa
Jonathan Reinhardt

Scott Tichenor

Apr-17-2006, 8:00am

Like to point out we've already had someone repost an ad this a.m. that was reposted from multiple times just this past Friday. Amazing. At the risk of receiving an avalanche of email, if a few of you that watch this closely could let me know when you see a quick repost, I can easily verify that through the classifieds logs so I can notify users and remind them of the new policy. Best way is to email me directly instead of using PM. Thanks.

red7flag

Apr-17-2006, 8:47am

I like the changes. I missed the Full View option too. I have trouble with change, but usually suffer through.
Tony

mandopete

Apr-17-2006, 9:02am

Yes, thanks Scott - I have been tracking mandolin prices in the classifieds for the past 2 years and noticed the practice of "bumping" seems to really be limited to a few people. #By in large most of the people who utilize the classifieds do a good job of policing themselves. #I think these changes are good and fairly simple to follow.

BTW - "View All" works fine (see above).

glauber

Apr-17-2006, 10:26am

Like to point out we've already had someone repost an ad this a.m. that was reposted from multiple times just this past Friday.
Somebody who doesn't read the forums. Off with his head!

Scott, the slight change is rules is a Good Thing, and shouldn't harm anyone. The classifieds are a very valuable resource, and it's incredible you've been able to keep them useful for so long (unlike what happens to most Internet resources).

Good job! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Ted Eschliman

Apr-17-2006, 12:13pm

The changes are well-thought out and very much appreciated. I'll apologize for any of my preceding posts being a bit on the cranky side. (I've taken my medication and am much better now.)

I will always appreciate Scott's leadership strategy of maintaining order with as few rules as possible, allowing the participants to for the most part, self-police. It puts the burden back on us to choose to behave.

PaulD

Apr-17-2006, 12:35pm

This thread is timely... I've just joined another forum while searching for some hardware for my car. It surprised me how much "bumping" goes on! Out of the first page of ads most seem to have been up for about 2 days and will have been bumped a dozen times (it's a "forum" classified section, so the seller will go out every few hours and post a message with something like "Bump" in the text... talk about OBNOXIOUS!).

I've felt like most of the vendors in the 'Cafe classifieds have tastefully kept their posts short and to the point, oftentimes with links to their Websites for more info.

To make a broader observation: this really is a very clean and usable site... the forum software and Scott's administration (and Dan's) really make it user friendly. This is a huge testament to Scott's and Dan's work... in any kind of system engineering/administration the behind the scenes work goes largely unnoticed. The only time the end users notice is if the engineers/administrators are not staying on top of the problems and performance tuning as the load changes. Thanks for all you guys do!

Paul Doubek

withak

Apr-17-2006, 1:24pm

I think it would be helpful for the SOLD ads to be kept around in some way as an informal price and buyer/seller reference. Even just being visible as a static listing instead of being kept in a DB would be nice.

Also, I think making sublists for instruments vs. accessories (or however else you want to describe not-instruments) would be nice. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paul Kotapish

Apr-17-2006, 1:53pm

Scott,

Thank you for providing this service.

A 30-day cycle seems entirely reasonable. The frequent bumps by a few posters are annoying.

I concur that the classifieds would be more useful if there were a few additional categories for accessories, learning materials, recordings, novelty items, etc.

bones12

Apr-17-2006, 2:19pm

Scott, Your thoughtful attention and a good listening ear are what makes this Cafe so special. For me the classifieds are a useful balm after a long workday and I appreciate the care and time you devote to them. Your recent changes seem gentle enough and I agree that fewer rules tend to allow more civility. However, one simple addition might be to "relabel" a repeated post with " repeat post" or "3rd Post" to acknowledge and discriminate the post as such. Most of us who utilize the classifieds might let market pressures bear on them. Another idea might be to ask for a financial donation to some scholarship fund or whatever for posts beyond the second. Oh well, let's hope reason catches on. Thanks, Doug Campbell

stevem

Apr-17-2006, 2:27pm

Good thread for me to read. I've been guilty of a couple bumps here, though nothing too bad. (I've sold 4 mandos here.)

My sins were the worst at the UMFG. I had a '36 Martin in pretty bad shape and had no idea what it was worth so I listed it for $2500. I then proceeded to bump myself every couple days, lowering the price each time. It finally sold for $750 several weeks and probably 15 bumps later. I had no idea it was a faux pas. I bet they were ready to crucify me over there. He he.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Peakbagr

Apr-17-2006, 9:52pm

I'd like to see mandolins "wanted" exclusively in the wanted section, and trades in the "trade" section, instead of these ads in the for sale section just 'cause more people read them there.

On ads, how about having all ads run for 30 days. Can you arrange for the software to send a reminder at that time? The placer of the ad checks a block "yes" and the ad is automatically renewed. No reply, and its deleted. No bumping allowed.

Jaded

Apr-17-2006, 11:39pm

Add me to the list of people who would like to see a seperate accessory category. I'm not often in the financial position to be shopping for a mandolin, tho I do look through the ads as a window shopper from time to time, however I'm always on the lookout for a better pick, strap, instruction book etc and it would be nice to be able to see when something new and interesting crops up without having to go through all of the pages of mandolins that I can't afford ;)

Thanks for the ads. I bought the mandolin I currently play through a seller here.

Antlurz

Apr-18-2006, 1:36am

Scott...

A lot of the different softwares, like vBulliten allows the user to define the number of posts to a page to display. Is a hack like that on this software possible?

Ron

Pete Braccio

Apr-18-2006, 10:48am

Hi all,

I agree with the general sentiment here, but I've got a question to pose. I listed a mando on the board and I got an offer on it with two days. At that point, I put an ON HOLD flag in the title. AFter 10 days, the deal fell through. This was the same day that this thread started.

So, my question(s): Should I have taken the listing off the site when I put the ON HOLD up? At that point it was still on the first page of the listings. When I reedited the ad to say that the mando was again available, it was on page four or five. Do people browse down that far usually? I know that I just usually check the new listings that are posted since I last looked at the classifieds. I never look to see if the ads I've already looked at have been edited. Do any of you do this?

Is it possible to put an edited flag (or date) on the listings page? This way it would be easy to see what ads have been changed. As it stands right now there is no indication at all when the ad has been modified.

Thanks,
Pete

Scott Tichenor

Apr-18-2006, 11:45am

Let me reiterate that people that don't look past the first page are making a *choice*. If people are only willing to look at the first page, that's fine by me, but I'm not going to change the posting guidelines because people are unwilling to search and browse by category. That somehow an instrument has lost its purpose and value because it's on page 2... I don't get it.

JimW

Apr-18-2006, 12:08pm

Scott, I agree with what you are saying and that would be the case if someone was looking for a specific mandolin. e.g.: If I was in the market for a Collings or Gibson A4, I would do a search for those particular instruments and go from there. But I think what makes the front page listing so important is the "impulse" buyer that wasn't actually in the market but happened to be browsing the classified ads and all of sudden see's a fantastic buy on something and buys the item. I know I've been guilty of buying on impulse and I happen to be one of those that only browse the front page, unless I'm looking for something specific and then I'll do a search.

I think its about getting your item seen by the most people to get the best possible result. I know it's pure marketing, but it works. It's like going into the grocery store and they have items out in the isle, away from it's designated area on the shelves, to get the most traffic. Also when you go through the checkout, all those little items are there for a reason. Company's pay big bucks for this "prime" space in retail stores because studies have shown high visibiltiy equates to sales.

I've used the classifieds here quite a bit, to buy and to sell, and I've never bumped an ad except one time on a custom and that was after 2 weeks. While I understand the reasoning behind wanting to have you ad on the front page, I also understand your concern that it could get out of hand. I don't have the answer, but maybe some sort of balance between the two could be worked out.

Just a thought here, but would it be possible to have a hyperlink from a canned pre-defined search from the classifieds page to find ad's that have been modified?

Jim Watts

Windflite

Apr-18-2006, 12:08pm

That somehow an instrument has lost its purpose and value because it's on page 2... I don't get it.

Hi Scott,

I think there is an unconscious stigma (albeit unfair) that gets attached to items on 'page 2' or greater. #Many of us are always on the lookout for that illusive 'great deal'. #The stigma attached to 'page 2 or greater instruments' can be construed as;

1) If is was truly a great deal...it would be gone already.
2) It must be sold and the seller forgot to remove it.
3) The price is right..looks good...but still there? Whats wrong with it.

Rational or not, the knee jerk reaction (just like real estate) to items that have not sold quickly is typically less than enthusiastic...hence, make it look a new listing! # Just human nature, I guess. #

Finally, I'm not suggesting that ANY rules change! #It drives me just as nuts as everybody else when people bump! #In fact, I'm gettin close to using the classifieds myself here in a few days and am hopeful they work for me!

Pete Braccio

Apr-18-2006, 1:33pm

Hi Scott,

I guess I didn't state my point too well. What I was concerned about was the people who browse the classifieds not knowing when an ad has been edited. If there was some way to flag an edited ad (an automatic edit on date, another column on the listing page, whatever) then the browsers among us could easily see when something has changed. It would also get rid of ANY reason for the "reposted at a lower price" ads.

Pete

Scott Tichenor

Apr-18-2006, 4:32pm

And just for fun I have to ask, what would keep someone from quickly recognizing they can gain added attention for their ad by going in every few days and making an edit, therefore popping up to the top of the 'edit' list?

I see plenty of technical solutions. Some of them are possible, and some we may eventually implement, but the biggest overriding issue is simply good manners and ability to play by the guidelines in place. Well, that and me actually paying attention to the place which I admit I haven't always done, but that is changing.

mandopete

Apr-18-2006, 4:55pm

Scott,

Pardon me if this has been brought up before, but perhaps the 30 day window is too long. Maybe the ads such just "naturally" expire sooner and in that way people could renew or change when that occurs. I know I seldom go much further back than a couple of weeks.

Pete Braccio

Apr-18-2006, 4:56pm

Well, at the risk of being further misunderstood, I'm not suggesting that any location in any list be changed when an edit is made. I was just suggesting that there be some way to find out if an edit is made. That could be a modification date stamp or whatever.

And, just to be clear, I have not ever bumped any ad or have I even relisted an ad immediately upon its 30 day expiration.

Pete

Scott Tichenor

Apr-18-2006, 5:57pm

I'm thinking out loud here, but if this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=&query=browse) is the view most of you use when viewing the classifieds, then short of making every single ad appear on that page will be the only thing that makes most people happy (unlikely).

But, while things are changing I'm seeing some new things:

1) Dealer category - this is not a useful category. If someone is a dealer they can let us know. Here comes the ax on that category I'm thinking.

2) An alternate view of For Sale (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&query=category&category=For+Sale&results_format=headlines) shows something that should and could likely be carved up. It's too big. Maybe new vs. used, but then limit *all* ads to one category. Ah-ha! There's one problem solved we won't need to deal with, that of placing the ad in categories in which it doesn't really belong, which I've pinged about a half dozen folks on today who almost all universally replied, "oh, well, everyone ELSE does it, so I assumed it was OK".

3) I don't see how anyone can complain about the trade (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&query=category&category=Would+Like+to+Trade&results_format=headlines) and Wanted (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&query=category&category=Wanted&results_format=headlines) categories. They're very small. And watch Wanted start to shrink now that folks are getting quizzed about those.

4) Mandopete, I've been thinking your obversaton is correct. 30 days may be too much. I'm thinking 21/45 days. Since I enjoy annoying people on the internet as part of my fun in running this site, maybe it's a good time to make a modification in that time span.

<sigh> But then there's those that can't get beyond that first page of ads. Ah well. Maybe we can form a support group for those unwilling to try using the search and "See Next 30 ads" button.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Scott Tichenor

Apr-18-2006, 6:10pm

Interesting stat I just checked on. Of the last 50 replies to ads, 20 (40%) of them were not on the front page at the current moment. That sort of shoots a hole in the theory there's no interest beyond the first 30.

fredfrank

Apr-18-2006, 6:21pm

I, too only look at the first page. But that's because I've already seen all the ads that have gone by. If there was an item I am thinking about buying, I'll take note of the ad number, and give myself a few days to think about it. If you have the ad number, it's pretty easy to find it again, even if the ad moves to page six. I can usually recognize the annoying bumped ads, and I pretty much ignore them.

One thing I might add here, is that I have been guilty of 'bumping' my ad every so often. But the last time I placed an ad, I thought to myself: "I'll just post this and let it go as far back as it wants to." Funny thing about it was I got more response from that, than any of the 'bumped' ads. Hmmmm.

Jerry Byers

Apr-18-2006, 6:29pm

I still say that if people want front row seats, charge them a premium to use the classifieds. And when enough people use this option, they will be back to page 2 soon enough.

I used to run a very popular website and dealt with the same issues, same complaints - my hat goes off to you, Scott. I would suggest some of your own advice - spend time with the ones that you love and don't sweat the small stuff.

alespa

Apr-18-2006, 7:55pm

Scott,

I agree with shortening the listing life. I think Craigslist.com recently shortened theirs to 7 days. This accomplishes what you are wanting to do, and places the burden on the poster, not you, to relist their posting, so people know the item is available, and so on. The two goals I understand that need to be reached are minimizing your time (and hassle) of moderation, and promoting a sense of timeliness and immediacy for sellers.

I wonder if there are more than 25 sellers of accessories on this board. I saw comments on a section for accessories, which I would agree with.

I have often found myself wanting to do a search with a price range or limit, so I don't have to wade through instruments I can't afford.

That's my two cents.

Kbone

Apr-18-2006, 8:27pm

Scott:
You've been more than fair.

mandopete

Apr-18-2006, 8:41pm

4) Mandopete, I've been thinking your obversaton is correct. 30 days may be too much. I'm thinking 21/45 days. Since I enjoy annoying people on the internet as part of my fun in running this site, maybe it's a good time to make a modification in that time span.
What is 21/45 days?

atetone

Apr-19-2006, 12:16am

I have sold 2 mandolins on the classifieds and both times they were way in the back pages by the time they sold.
I had actually given up on them selling but did not bump them up to the top and lo and behold they both sold anyway.
If people are truly looking to buy something they will venture to the back pages. I do. There is some good stuff lurking back there.
In my opinion there is basically very little wrong with the classifieds. There is something wrong though with a few of the people using them.
To take the attitude that your particular ad is more important than the next persons and to think that you have the right to keep bumping yours up to the top to displace theirs is ridiculous.
These abusers have to try to shake a bit of their self-absorption and try applying a bit of patience. #
Manners.
We all have to remember that we are guests on this site and should conduct ourselves accordingly.
The classifieds are provided free of charge and are a great privilege not a free for all to be dominated by the pushy few.
Scott,,,, I don't know how you stand this stuff sometimes, but I am glad that you somehow find a way.
You can't legislate common decency and a sense of fair play. Some people just don't get it.
A tweek here or there maybe at your discretion with some input from reasonable people but as far as I am concerned the classifieds would work just fine as long as they are not abused by those who feel that they need to get "The Edge" at the expense of the membership as a whole.
Sorry if I have upset the innocent with this rant but this just drives me off the deep end.

Tim

Apr-19-2006, 7:04am

Since the goal seems to be to have a mostly self-governing classified section, I would think that most of the seller's goals could be met by adding "updated on..." to the ad's title when you update the ad. #You wouldn't have the bumping that annoys people and anyone who is interested in what ads have changed would have an easy way to find them.

fatt-dad

Apr-19-2006, 7:24am

One thing that I like about ebay is that you can sort the listings by price, ending soon (more relavent for an auction perhaps) or recently listed. Not knowing the "guts" of the 'cafe classifieds would this be another option?

fatt I-can-only-imagine-how-difficult-this-must-be dad

Jeroen

Apr-19-2006, 8:29am

What about posting the classifieds upside down, with the ones about to drop on top and the new ones added to the tail?

The way to catch the attention of the lazy one-click picture peekers will then be to keep your ad up there for a few weeks and let it climb to the top.

luckylarue

Apr-19-2006, 8:33am

I think if I'm really interested in a mandolin, I'll go looking for it - no matter what page it's on. Can't imagine there's too many "impulse" mando shoppers who don't venture past page one.
"Ummm, let's see, I'll take that comb, a pack of gum, and heck, why not, that '24 F4, as well."

Jerry Byers

Apr-19-2006, 8:33am

mandopete

Apr-19-2006, 8:54am

Sorta like a clearance sale..."Last chance to buy this mandolin before it disappears forever!"

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

mrmando

Apr-19-2006, 4:13pm

Thank goodness this isn't Craig's List. 7 days is way too short if you ask me.

dillo

Apr-19-2006, 4:32pm

there's a classified section?...Really?... Where?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

otterly2k

Apr-20-2006, 1:54pm

Lots of good ideas here, and I wholly trust Scott to make sound judgement about what will work best and be least burdensome to manage.

That said, I'll also add my 2c that it would be a shame to make the listings too short in duration. Things sell fast or slow for all sorts of reasons... many having nothing at all to do with the item itself. As both a buyer and seller, I'd find it frustrating to have to check/renew very frequently.

KE

JEStanek

Apr-21-2006, 11:50am

Bump! oops maybe I shouldn't have done that. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I just saw the Classifieds are updated. New/Used/Accesories/Wanted/Trade/Lost-Stolen sections. This is great! Thanks Scott!

Jamie

Scott Tichenor

Apr-21-2006, 12:01pm

Check again.

Brad Weiss

Apr-21-2006, 12:13pm

Much tidier with the new categories. Keeps more of what you're probably looking for on the front page a bit longer. Thanks for the hard work Scott!

gschmidt

Apr-21-2006, 1:28pm

Thanks for the changes Scott!

I think making separate New and Used sections is a great idea and will work good for the "first pagers" (like myself, who just picked up an Eastman off a first page deal http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

Windflite

Apr-21-2006, 1:36pm

Eggscellent. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

guitharsis

Apr-21-2006, 5:46pm

Very nice. Thanks, Scott.

Doreen

Bluegrass Books Online

Apr-21-2006, 5:57pm

Thanks for all the hard work on the updates Scott, they should make the classifieds a equal playing field for all that use them.

Carrie #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

fredfrank

Apr-21-2006, 6:55pm

Too many categories!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Bob A

Apr-21-2006, 6:59pm

I preferred to just look in one place to see what had been posted. As the man says, "too many categories".

fredfrank

Apr-21-2006, 7:02pm

Of course, I'm just kidding. I really can't afford to buy anything but 'Accessories' anyway!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Chris Baird

Apr-21-2006, 7:13pm

If you want to see everything then click "browse all". I think the new catagories are a fine improvement.

Jerry Byers

Apr-21-2006, 7:22pm

I like the new categories - keeps things nice and tidy. My only suggestion is to move All Categories to the right side instead of the left - habit keeps me clicking on the right side when I should be clicking on the left.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-21-2006, 9:38pm

Next step here is likely changing the 30 and 60 day ad periods to 21 and 45 days respectively. If 21 is too short, you can either renew or select the longer option. Need to do a bit of research on this one though as initially if those dates are changed there'll be a fairly big number drop off. Need to give some advance notice on that. Looking into a few other upgrades as well.

sunburst

Apr-21-2006, 10:24pm

Good job Scott!
I make my own "book marks", and I made one for just the "for sale" section of the classifieds, so I could browse there occasionally, without going to the main classifieds page first.
I figured I'd have to make a new one, but I tried the old one I made to see what would happen. It brings up "new instruments for sale" and "used instruments for sale", combined. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that you thought of that, but a lot of people wouldn't have.

I think, now, I'll subdivide my "book mark" so I can jump to whatever section I want.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-22-2006, 9:42am

Here's some additional data for those of the opinion that ads are long gone and forgotten after they leave the first page of returns. I've been monitoring this since hearing that concern about a week ago and it's consistently between 40-55% of the ad replies are for items not in the first page of returns. This a.m. the count was 27 or most recent 50 ads. Interestingly, at the time of this post we're on ad #18495 and also of those recent most 50 replies were four to ads with numbers in the #17XXX range.

f5joe

Apr-22-2006, 10:46am

Scott: by "New" you mean dealers, right?

Jakester

Apr-22-2006, 11:40am

I like it.
Thanks for a great forum.

Jenigen
Richmond, VA

Scott Tichenor

Apr-22-2006, 1:18pm

Scott: by "New" you mean dealers, right?
Sort of, some of the time.

I mean brand new instruments not previously sold, and not something someone bought new and three months later decides to move. The term Dealer has lost its meaning with the internet IMO. Quite a few people selling new instruments as brokers, hobbyists and doing direct business with builders. I could name 3-5 right off the top of my head that frequent the classifieds and message board and they're doing this out of their house.

True Dealers--I define as possessing brick and mortar retail storefronts--are welcome to post instruments, and of course this is stated as such in the new guidelines. Those other folks, and I have nothing against them doing this, are to post those new instruments in this category.

Hope this explains it.

Jerry Byers

Apr-22-2006, 1:28pm

The term "brick and mortar" has indeed lost its meaning on the Internet. Personally, I wouldn't classify a dealer because of that term. There are many "brick and mortar" music shops that don't qualify as dealers. Dealers are authorized sellers of certain equipment. Dealers generally are the only ones that can give a warranty and are restricted to what they can sell and for how much. As you stated, a lot of dealers use brokers to move equipment - they generally don't offer a warranty, even with new equipment, and they don't have direct contact with the manufacturer.

J. Mark Lane

Apr-22-2006, 1:53pm

Jerry, I think maybe you are confusing the concepts of "dealer" and "authorized dealer." Really, the term "dealer" doesn't have any meaning at all, other than someone who "deals." It's common usage in this context is, imo, for someone who operates a regular business selling musical instruments. There are many many many "dealers", of course, who are not "authorized dealers" of much of anything.

As I read it (and I could be wrong), what Scott is saying is that people who are selling new instruments can put them in the New Instruments category, regardless of whether they are "dealers" or kitchen table hobbiests...and people who are selling used instruments can put them in that category, also regardless of what kind of operation they are. With this breakdown, it becomes unncessary to distinguish what a "dealer" is...so the discussion is somewhat academic (if interesting).

Jerry Byers

Apr-22-2006, 2:09pm

I can see your point. The dealer section doesn't do anything for me. I could name a couple dealers would don't have a storefront. I sell new instruments, but I don't consider myself a dealer, even though I have a legitimate business. I operate more on the broker side of things. I help individuals and businesses move their merchandise. And I agree, this part of the discussion is more academic than anything else.

Personally, the term "new" should represent an item that should be mint, comes in its original state, and should have some warranty with it. A lot of people confuse "mint" with "new." I have sold items that were years old but still in its original packing - yes, it looked or operated as new, but it was really "mint." With most manufacturered products, "new" equates to coming with warranty. Of course, this is not to be confused with refurbished - could be new, but comes with no or a modified warranty.

Anyways, I digress and pass on the remainder of the time to the next person.

J. Mark Lane

Apr-23-2006, 11:51am

f5joe

Apr-23-2006, 2:50pm

Scott Tichenor

Apr-23-2006, 5:02pm

Scott, one thought here. I like the new setup, but it would be nice all the Classified categories were available as hyperlinks while viewing any particular category. As it is, I go in, click on Used Instruments, have a look...then I want to look at Accessories. I have to back out to the previous page, then into Accessories. It might be nice to be able to just go direct from Used to Accessories, etc. I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that this might be fairly easy to do. Just a thought....
Agree, that entire area at the top of the classifieds pages needs a make-over and that's on the list. In the meantime, I usually don't subscribe to the usability of javascript pull-down menus, but in this case I think one is called for and I just added it. Plus, I think I can cook up some additional views there that may be of interest.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-23-2006, 5:05pm

Scott: One of the current "new instrument" adds says: "No trades or lower offers, please, I need to get what I paid back."

I suppose I'm splitting hairs. Here's someone who's bought an instrument that he/she wants to sell. To me it is "used" regardless of condition. Based on this criteria, I could sell my Duff and Dudenbostel as new. I really believe those that can will stretch the truth. Sorry to be a picky bas*ard. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Therin lies a problem of a resource like this. I'm not gonna hold everyone's hand, but a few problem users are sure are trying to get me to. Quite frankly, it's my opinion most people are going to look at used instruments rather than new, so the individual is just doing themselves a disfavor, and I'm inclined to allow them.