Martin 2-15

[lvsofgrass]

Hello:

I was wondering if any of you could tell me about the 2-15 mandolin made by Martin. I played one the other day, and I was impressed by it -- very loud and woody sounding. Played great. It is a 1954 model in outstanding shape -- no cracks or stuctural issues. It is all original and has the OHSC. Anybody have much experience with these mandolins? Anybody speculate as to the value of these? I realize it is not a Gibson F or A model, but it was really nice. I just thought some of you in the know might be willing to offer some insight.

Thanks so much,

lvsofgrass

[8ch(pl)]

There was one for sale in Halifax for $1600 Canadian, about $1350 US. I liked it, but I have seen them advertised for less than that I believe. They are different from the Gibson structurally, no fretboard extension but the top takes off from the neck at quite an angle. High bridge.

Sound is also different and hard for me to nail down. Not really a Bluegrass instrument.

[Jim M.]

There's a '62 2-15 for $895 at Vintage Instruments:
http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/inst20/2-15ful.jpg

I like the archtop Martins, though if I was going to get one, I'd probably go for the 2-pt. body shape, like this one:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Mandolin/Martin/230/230Views/2303.jpg

[sunburst]

I re-topped a 1941 2-20(I think ?) several years ago. The tops were, generally, under-built, and over-braced. (see pics)
The value is not particularly high. Checking the web sites of instrument dealers and the 'bay will probably give you a good idea of the market value.

[lvsofgrass]

Thanks for the replies -- so 1,190.00 would be a little high to pay? Gruhn has a similar one for 1,500, but he is high . . .

[Eugene]

I tend to favor the ovel-holed Martins: styles 15, 20, and 30 (although there were only two of the latter built). The sound of the f-holed versions (styles 2-15, 2-20, and 2-30) just never seemed to get it for me. Also, I've seen a number of the f-holed models with the same issue depicted by sunburst; these things often develop a nasty collapse of the soundboard in the trough of the arch between bridge and tailpiece. I don't recall ever seeing that on one of the oval-holed models.

[DryBones]

Is that a strap loop on the back of the headstock? Anybody try this on any other mando? somebody was looking for a strap button on a Mid-Mo...wonder if this would work?

[Loren Bailey]

Being stap oriented myself I was curious about the same thing. It's a cool concept.

Loren

[keithd]

lvsofgrass (is that a Whitman ref?),

I have a 1949 2-15 on consignment with Eric Schoenberg Guitars:

http://om28.com/smando/mar215.html

It's a beautiful and sweet thing, but I've been playing a teens Gibson, and I much prefer the tone and neck on it for the music I play (Irish session tunes). The 2-15 has a fairly thin neck width and profile.

Happy hunting,

Keith

[kestrel]

Sunburst - Was that crush due to the tailpiece pressing down on the top? I just traded for a Trinity College Octave on which the tail-piece is laying hard against the top. It's my first octave, but my mando tail-pieces sit above the top, and I was concerned about this - especially after seeing your photo. I was thinking about replacing the TP with perhaps an Allen. Any suggestions/recommendations? The TC plays very well and has a really nice sound, that I can't believe wouldn't improve without the TP pressing against it. The action at the nut needs to be lowered some, but I don't want to mess around with that until I've settled myself with the TP issue. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Gene

[sunburst]

That one collapsed because the top was simply too thin. There may have been an impact, but there was no evidence of one, no mark or dented place. The tailpiece didn't really have anything to do with it, other than apply the string tension to the rim that caused the top failure.

Now on to your tailpiece question. First of all; full disclosure. I make and sell tailpieces.

Your tailpiece should not be contacting the top. If it's sheet metal, and flexible at all, it might be that the angle from the tail block to the bridge is so shallow that the string tension is pulling the tailpiece down to the top.
You might be able to bend the tailpiece up, and if it is strong and stiff enough, it might stay up there, and not touch the top.

If you decide to go with a cast tailpiece, try to find out if the angle of the tailpiece will work well on your OM. It might be too high, or too low, and bending cast metal is asking for cracks, though some people have done it successfully.
Also check to be sure that any mandolin tailpiece you consider will accomodate the larger OM strings.

I did some set up work on a TC OM recently, but I don't remember what tailpiece was on it. I don't remember there being a clearance problem with the top either, and I think I would have noticed if there was a problem, and done something about it.
Did you start another thread about buzzing? The one I worked on had G-string buzzing, that I was eventually able to minimize with judicious fret milling. When that one is ready for a fret job, planing the fingerboard should fix it.

[Eugene]

Sunburst - Was that crush due to the tailpiece pressing down on the top?
Gene, that particular malady simply seems too common to Martin's f-holed archtop mandolins. #In no case I've seen does it appear to have had anything to do with the tailpiece. This tailpiece design only contacts the instrument at the very edge.

[pathfinder]

What Eugene and sunburst said is true. #The top sank on my 1940 Martin 2-15 last winter. #In exactly the same place as sunburst's photo (just north of the tailpiece). #Too bad, as I really liked the sound.

I'll probably relegate it to 'wallhanger' status until I can find someone to carve me a new (and stronger) soundboard. Philosophically, the old top lasted 65 years which isn't bad. #But the tops on those Martin 'f' hole models were a bit too thin.

[Jim Garber]

I can't imagine that you need to have a new top. It won't prob be worth the price of the mandolin. I would think you cpould reinforce that area inside the mandolin.

I also had a 1940 2-15 with a slight separation at that point.

Jim

[Eugene]

Exactly. #I've seen f-holed Martins invisibly restored and reinforced at that weak point.

[lvsofgrass]

So is this a model to stay away from? I'm a long time flatpicker and I know guitars pretty well, but I m pretty new to mandolins. The one I am looking at is a '54 model, and it appears structurally sound and well taken care of. Any thoughts?

[Eugene]

If you like the archtop Martins, my own preference would be for the oval-holed models (15 or 20). #I have not seen any of those with a collapsed top...and I think they sound less "tight" than the f-holed models. #If you happen to come across an f-holed Martin that has already collapsed and been restored by a guy who knows what he's doing 1) It's probably not going to be so susceptible again and 2) it should be a whole lot cheaper than an unrestored and as yet undamaged one.

[flairbzzt]

I had my Dad's that he bought 43 years ago and it had no such problem, probably due to one owner who took very good care of it for all this time. Loved the small neck for stout hands.

[flairbzzt]

Here it is...

[pathfinder]

[QUOTE] jgarber
"I also had a 1940 2-15 with a slight separation at that point"

Hi Jim! #Actually it's the same 1940 mandolin. #I bought it from you (from the classifieds) two years ago. #If you remember, you shipped it to Ontario and then UPS caused me major grief at the border for three weeks. #BTW, my mistake for selecting UPS. #Never again.#

Anyway, the diagnosis of the only pro luthier who's examined it, was that it needs a new carved top. #I don't mind the investment, because I really liked its design and its dry woody sound. #It didn't 'bark' like a BG mando, but it was ideal for celtic and folk. #I've been procrastinating on taking the luthier's advice, because I cringe at discarding that nice ol' seasoned sunburst top, and then entrusting the instrument to a luthier who may (or may not) successfully replicate its radical carve, it's 'f' holes and the sunburst finish.

But if you, Eugene and others have knowledge of these old tops being salvaged, I'll happily investigate. #It's not a big priority right now, but a repair job would be far cheaper and would make my reservations disappear.

Anyway,thanks for the tip, guys. #And best regards to 'lvsofgrass' for starting a very timely thread (sorry for hijacking it, amigo). #But it gave me with a much-welcomed 'second opinion' just when I was looking for one.

As for my two cents worth to your original question? #I have no regrets with my 2-15 (it's the only prewar Martin I'll ever own)! #Just remember, investing in older mandolins is like playing Texas Hold'em; if you're in for a penny, you'd better be ready to be in for a dollar.

But they're worth it. After all, somebody's gotta keep them in circulation.

[sunburst]

A few things:

Replacing the top of the one I re-topped was a much better repair than any reinforcement I could have done to the cross-grain fractured spruce. I was able to get a new old stock top, from Martin, that was pattern carved, with the arch already established. The 'burst is a simple, two color, sprayed burst, and was fairly easy to replicate.
A very experienced repairman who saw the mandolin after the re-top said the only way he could tell it had been done, was because of the swirl marks in the freshly buffed lacquer, and those will go away.

Don't discount the wisdom of a re-top if it's the best repair. Cross-grain fractures severely weaken the structure of the top, and the instrument, and any workable reinforcement is almost as much work as a re-top.

[keithd]

As far as finding a luthier to do a right looking replacement, you might check Graham Blair, Devil's Dream Mandolins. He makes some mandolins with very similar f-holes, very beautiful, and I believe he is in Canada. I'm unable to get to his webpage right now...must be under construction:

http://devilsdreammandolins.com/

He's listed as a builder here on the cafe too.

Keith

[delsbrother]

I was able to get a new old stock top, from Martin, that was pattern carved, with the arch already established.
Wow, what year was this? Did you get the idea that there were more available?

[sunburst]

I'm sworn to secrecy about how I got that top.
They had fewer than 10 at the time, it was almost 10 years ago, I gave the owner a good price, but let her have the mandolin back before she had paid the whole amount. I never got paid the full amount, and the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth.
A learning experience, as they say...

[pathfinder]

Thought I'd check this thread again before I shuffled off to bed. #I appreciate the further advice, folks.

As you suggested, keithd, I tracked down Graham Blair's site in the builders area (Vancouver BC). #But as you said, he's under construction right now.

I also sent off a PM to John Hamlett, although I'm not sure it went through (it didn't shift over to my 'sent' folder). #Perhaps you could let me know whether or not you got it, John?

And once again, my apologies for hogging the original poster's thread.

Neil Humphrey