Best "Army Navy" Model?

[timacn]

I'm thinking about purchasing an "Army Navy" type mandolin. #What is your feeling on the relative merits of different models: #Mid Missouri, #Martin "Bent Top," #Flatiron Pancake, Y2K etc?

Do flat tops generally project well or are they often thought to be "too quiet."

As always, thanks.

[Eric F.]

Well, I've owned a Mid-Mo, two Flatirons and a Bill Davis. I rate the Davis ahead of the others. Based on my experience with one of his A styles, I would not hesitate to have Chris Baird build me an Arches flattop, and the Newells in the classifieds look tempting, too, don't they? Sorry if I've only confused you. I think flattops are their own thing - they tend to have a boxy, boomy kind of bass. The ones I've owned have projected better than the few Martin cant tops I've played, but I really have little experience with Martins.

[telepbrman]

I have had 3 Flatiron Pancakes, used, and I like them for the volume and size: They are loud little mandolins. I don't like the fact that I have to buy used and not get a waranty. So, I think the Weber Y2K series or the Davis Flats are the way to go.

We get caught up in the "vintage" type deal of "is it signed by so'n'so, pre this and post that" And our playing suffers because our interest is in the "gear" and not the playing. I hope you don't fall into this "gear hunt" type of pattern...Like I have. I am slowly leaving the "hunt" and doing more playing, improving my style, and that is what it's about....anyhow: I do think you should play an old Flatiron Pancake, but just try not to fall into that "gear head" mode where you loose touch with the playing of the Mandolin.

The basic answer I have about Flats is---I like the small size and loud volume, I like the feel of a used instrument and I play my newly aquired 86' Flatiron 1CH a lot, yet I have no waranty and if something is a miss, It's on me and not the company. Plus, all those cracks and scratches and love marks were placed on her by someone else, and my mojo ain't on her...later, and keep us posted, dy.

[8ch(pl)]

I have often posted about my Mid Missouri M-4. If I had a criticism, it is that the Flatiron followed the Army and Navy dimensions, with the sides coming in to the neck at a greater angle than the Mid Missouri. I like the plumper look of the Flatiron,as well as the Gibsonesque headstock. This is a minor point.

Price wise the Mid Missouri is hard to beat. I also think the X-Bracing is better suited to a flat top than the Gibson. I don't know if Flatirons are X-braced or not. I have only handled 1 Flatiron, it was a mandola and I did not check into it's bracing

[timacn]

What about the Martin "bent tops?" How do they stack up against the other "flats?"

[fatt-dad]

What about the Martin "bent tops?" #How do they stack up against the other "flats?"
I've never played a Martin, but had an Alvarez knock-off. It didn't have anywhere near the projection of my Flatiron 1N and not even close in playability. I think the Martin has the 13 in scale length. I would really focus on the Flatiron pancake or the Mid Missouri, but then again the small-shop stuff (which I've never played) may be another great way to go.

fatt I-do-love-my-pancake dad

[John Flynn]

NFI, but the best one I have ever played was none of the above, it was the Arches Flat-top. That thing sounded great, looked great, and it was a CANNON when it came to volume. You can also get it with lots of custom options for not much extra. If I were in the market, that would be the way I would go. The Arches is somewhat larger than the choices you mentioned, however.

[Givson]

Peter Sawchyn in Canada builds some extremely nice looking, reasonably priced "army-navy" style mandos. I have never played one.

[pickinNgrinnin]

Another vote for the Bill Davis Flat Tops. I've played 3 different ones and they all had great volume and tone. Bill also makes some tasty F5's.

[telepbrman]

Skip the Martin if you're looking for jammin with pals, bluegrass, and general loud playing....I have a 1970 "A" and she is best for solo/recording, couch pickin and such. I love the feel, and the tone is there, but it's a solo type Mandolin...dy.

[PaulD]

I've had a Flatiron 1SH for 25 years now (Oh my god... that dates me!) and I've always loved the punch. The tone isn't as "refined" as a good carved top, but I won't ever part with that instrument. I've also played Mid Missouris and one Arches flattop. They are comparable and you can buy them new.

Good luck in your quest!

pd

[Steve L]

Martin cant tops tend to be pretty quiet and have a 13" scale length. They're nice, but not always practical.

[RobP]

What about Tacoma??

[jim_n_virginia]

I like the Gibson Army/Navy pancake best next would probaby be he Flatiron which is pretty much a copy of the Gibson. I've played several Flatirons (including Fatt Dad's) and all sounded great. Nice boomy sound great for Old Time and Celtic music.

I've owned a Mid Mo and while it is a flat top mandolin it is a little different than a Army/Navy model and thus has a different tone. To my ears a much brighter sound that I like also.

Forget the Martin, while they make great guitars they never got a handle on making mandolins for some reason, every one I ever payed lacked clarity and volume.

While I'd love a vintage Gibson pancake mando they can get a little pricey so I think the Flatiron is the best deal as far as price and availability.

Just remember (IMHO anyways) no pancake will put out enough volume in a bluegrass jam or band setting but the are great for Celtic Sessiuns' and Old Timey jams.

In any event I'd love to own one myself and I have been scouring eBay for a while now looking for the right deal (ie; cheap) but like everything... prices seem to be rising.

good luck in your search
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[Mike Crocker]

Not really an army/navy, but a flattop nonetheless, Moon makes a nice one (www.moonguitars.co.uk). I've had one for a few years now and like it a lot, though I've made some minor changes to it (bridge, tuners, tailpiece, binding radius, strap buttons). Nice flame maple and spruce, very clean fretwork. If memory serves, it was under a grand Cdn $.

Peace, Mooh.

[8ch(pl)]

Since the Price factor is being raised,could someone tell me about a couple of Gibson prices?

1917 Alrite $1600 Canadian, about $1375 US. This instrument has been converted to X-Bracing. Sounds great. The original top was distorted, buckled I guess. It was removed, the old braces taken out and the X-braces installed. The top was then re-installed and flattened out. The work is well done by a local luthier. I don't know if the original braces have been saved.

1918 or so Army and Navy Model at $1800 Canadian - about $1550 US. In very good condition, better than the Alrite. It has original braces etc. This one is stained a dark (Like Walnut) colour. I don't know if this is original or not. This is a good player, but the Alrite sounds a bit nicer. The Army Navy is brighter.

The shop also has an F hole A style at $2500. I don't know if it is an A-40 or an A-50. It is in excellent condition.

I think they are all overpriced, especially the A. If I were to purchase one it would be the Alrite, but I'm not in the market for an instrument just now.

I am still hoping to find a Blackface Gibson A at a yard sale for $45 like a guy in New Jersey did. That I could afford.

Any comments?

[epicentre]

Just a thought:

If you have a week or two, you can build a real nice Army-Navy type mando from a Stew Mac Kit.

The price will probably be "better" than retail, new, or used.

They sound good.

Not for bluegrass. Unless you want to use them for bluegrass.

Seriously, they're a nice little mando for small group - front porch - Celtic pickin. Just what ya want if it's what ya want.

Check out the mando pic threads.

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[spoefish]

I have a later Flatiron (black top gloss finish Cadet) and I think is is about as nice as it gets. #I have had a couple of MidMo mandolins and liked the walnut one the best, but still prefer the Flatiron as being the best representation of the A-N type. #OTOH, there is nothing as nice IMHO than the MidMo mandola. #Just fine in every way.

Stephen

1992 Flatiron Cadet, bright and loud
2003 Weber custom (gloss sunburst, maple)Hyalite, great all-round
2004 Arches A style f hole, walnut – smooth, and my current favorite
2004 Eastman 604, woody
Mid Missouri M-15 maple-spruce mandola, just perfect

[Lee]

Garrison from Canada are priced in the high $400's. Quite a nice mandolin for the money.

[acumando]

Just remember (IMHO anyways) no pancake will put out enough volume in a bluegrass jam or band setting but the are great for Celtic Sessiuns'
so, it won't go up against a 5-string banjo but it will cut through a bunch of fiddles and maybe a couple of 4-voice wet-tuned Paolo Sopranis?

not trying to be argumentative, but i do kind of wonder what people mean when they talk about something being "great for Celtic...", help me understand, please.

[Steve L]

I think when people say "great for Celtic", it means "bad for bluegrass".

[epicentre]

"not trying to be argumentative, but i do kind of wonder what people mean when they talk about something being "great for Celtic...", help me understand, please."
Some say "great for Celtic" can mean not a helluva lot good for anything else.

Not my words but "some" say that, so I've heard.\

Discussions about "openess, projection, sustain, mid-range, bottom end, can become so convoluted one wonders if one is discussin mandos or cars.

Guess ya gotta pic a couple and decide.

My little pancake kit model is "great for Celtic"!!!

[JGWoods]

I Like'em. I like the bent tops, I like the pancake/army/navy ones, Mid-Mo too, and I haven't run in to any of the Weber flat tops but I bet they are good too.
Spoefish who posted above got my Flatiron Cadet. I liked it a lot, he seems to like it also and we agree it's loud and sweet. I love my bent top more so I sold the Cadet.

Lots of folks will say you can't get much volume out of a bent top- short scale mandolin- and I think that is generally true- there's a point there where the short scale, light strings, and low mass of the instrument just don't make for a really loud player- BUT - I have played my all koa bent top in a jam many times with 10 people around me playing banjos and fiddles and the fiddler waay across from me hears it just fine. It won't cut through like a carved top F hole BG mando will, but if you ring out open chords and lean on the bottom strings it will sing plenty loud enough for most occasions.

And they're small, easy to pack away for a trip, light as a feather, and just flat out different and fun to play.

Also undervalued as quality used instruments.

[lucho]

I wonder is any body knows how the sound of the older kentucky army navy mandolins made in Japan in the 70s compares to Midmos and flatirons? are they good mandolins that will last or are they just wall hangers.
salu2,

[steve V. johnson]

I had a Flatiron Army-Navy style mandola once, and I asked around a bunch about it and about the A/N style.

I asked at Weber, since that was what was left (sort of...) of the Flatiron bunch. I was told that the original A/Ns weren't very well built and that many of them broke at the neck/body joint, and that Flatiron knew that and made the neck block much better. The mandola I had was very nicely built, but a bit homely by modern standards. It was loud and clear.

I've played several bent-top Martins and I didn't find them very loud at all, tho a couple of them had really sweet voices. A couple sounded sort of muddy (to me), even with new strings.

I've had a Mid-Mo mahogany mando and a maple OM thru here. I think that, appearance aside, if anyone is considering a Pac Rim instrument, that they should forget about it and get a Mid-Mo. For those of us who just have to have a scroll for cheap ... well... never mind...

I have recently gotten a Chris Baird Arches Flat Top, with walnut back and sides, and it is amazing. It is really loud and has a very wide range of tones. I don't like really treble-y mandolins, and this one's top is really rich. The bottom isn't boomy but has enough thump to make me happy. <GG> I'm just blown away with it. I didn't really intend to own an Arches, I just came across a great deal and I'm much the luckier for it.

I think that the Arches is a tad more $ (and maybe waiting time for it) than some of the others discussed here, but whew.... it's well worth it.

All the best,

stv

[Tiderider]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the late 30's Kalamazoo KM11. These are fairly easy to find, sound wonderful and are going on 70 years old.....instant MOJO.
Lee

[fatt-dad]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the late 30's Kalamazoo KM11. #These are fairly easy to find, sound wonderful and are going on 70 years old.....instant MOJO.
I had one of these and sold it in favor of my Flatiron 1N. The Flatiron just had more tone and was much better overall (for me).

[Jim MacDaniel]

I wonder is any body knows how the sound of the older kentucky army navy mandolins made in Japan in the 70s compares to Midmos and flatirons? are they good mandolins that will last or are they just wall hangers.
salu2,
I've never played one of the KY's, but I think they made both a laminated and solid top version, the latter bearing a "S" suffix on the model number.

[Tiderider]

I had one of these and sold it in favor of my Flatiron 1N. The Flatiron just had more tone and was much better overall (for me).


Really, the KM11 I had (and wish I had kept) sounded great. The trebles literally sounded like a bell. It was my first mandolin and I sold it off after buying my A9. I keep looking for one to replace it.
Lee

[fatt-dad]

Really, the KM11 I had (and wish I had kept) sounded great. #The trebles literally sounded like a bell.
It must have been my ear. I just don't like mahogany bodies on mandolins (at least the ones that I've played thus far. . . . . .)

f-d