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tattiemando
Mar-24-2006, 7:54am
Hi, I play bluegrass style mandolin and at the moment I play a Kentucky (km675) model which for what I paid for, still sounds good. However at the moment I am going to buy a better model which will maximise my budget, and will provide me with a higher grade mandolin in sound and playability. I am very interested in buying a Collings (MT-2) A. model, I have also speculated over the Weber Yellowstone ,the Weber Maple Bitteroot models. Capek mandolins also I am led to beleive are good quality. I also am aware lebeda mandolins are of good quality namely the Indian Summer lebeda f5 style mandolin which would be on on the limit of my budget . around $3500 . Is it a case of A model versus f5 ? Is the Collings (MT-2) A model a better purchase because its f5 syle Collings cousin is more expensive, or does a Weber Yellowstone ,or even a custom model of any of the afore mentioned mandolins a better purchase .i would be grateful if anybody has any suggestions.

Ken Sager
Mar-24-2006, 9:24am
Welcome!

You're asking a bunch of questions, which is good for one of your first posts here.

Value, sound, and playability are all the right things to consider when mandolin shopping. That said, only the value question can be adequately answered in a forum such as this. The list you mentioned are all reputable builders, but there are many more whose mandolins are priced within your budget. Resale values can be another consideration, too. Look at used prices compared to new to know what the market thinks of the builders you're considering. Resale potential is always part of the value equation, even if you think you're buying The One.

I think EVERYBODY agrees that you'll get the best value buying used instead of new. It's much easier to sell a used mandolin for the price you paid for it used than to sell a used mandolin at a new price.

Lastly, and most important (IMHO), is tone and playability. To answer those questions you'll need to put your hands on some mandolins. Not every mandolin from each builder will sound and play the same. You'll need to find the one that speaks to you. Not only will the mandolins be different, but different players will judge them differently. What speaks to one player may not speak to another.

Please keep us posted on your progress. Many of us who read this board live and die vicariously through the mandolin shopping of others.

Good luck with your quest,
Ken

tattiemando
Mar-24-2006, 9:52am
Thanks for your advice Ken Sager, I agree used mandolins may be the best route . I unfortuntely do not live in the USA or in a hotbed of mando shops or enthusiasts I live in the UK where there are far fewer new or second hand mandolins . I will continue to trawl the web & check up on the UK mando dealers a small number I beleive also deal in Czech Republic A & F model mandos . Many Thanks.... Tattiemando

Jerry Byers
Mar-24-2006, 9:55am
The classifieds here at the Cafe are a great resource for used mandolins.

Kevin Briggs
Mar-24-2006, 10:22am
I'll tak ethe plunge and say I think you'll get more mandolin for your buck with the Weber Yellowstone. You get a good sounding mandolin, and all the visual fixins.

tattiemando
Mar-24-2006, 10:57am
Thanks for the useful information , ratherbepickin, the Weber Yellowstone is well respected among mando pickers.I realy don t care if the mandolin I obtainis an (A) mdel f hole or (F)5 style f hole. (IMHO)is my first consideration though it has to be said a mando that is pleasing to the eye is also an important factor .I would be grateful if anybody that plays music with a Collings (MT-2) a model f hole mandolin has any feed back on (IMHO). The Weber Yellowstone seems readily available from most stockist new & second hand. Any info on Czech republic hand made mandolins

Alex Fields
Mar-25-2006, 3:08pm
Don't buy a Weber. They are way overpriced for the sound. Great craftsmanship, sure, but I've never played one that sounded better than decent. The Collings MT, on the other hand, sounds great, better than any mandolin I've played at that price level or below. As for Capek, his mandolins are pretty good, but the ones I've played weren't especially good or bad for the price range--meaning you can probably find a better deal, especially if you're patient and look around for used instruments. I did play a Capek oval hole mandola which is by far the best sounding mandola I've played, I can't imagine any mandola sounding much better, so there's at least potential he's made a mandolin that good, too.

If possible, play any mandolin you're considering before you buy it. I know that can be hard because of location, but it's worth driving or maybe paying for shipment to test an instrument, etc., to play it. At the least, though, buy a used instrument you can sell for at least what you payed for it in case you don't like it--I'd say you'd be safe getting a used Collings, for example.

Jerry Byers
Mar-25-2006, 3:22pm
Don't buy a Weber? Well, that was an uneducated statement. Are you going to tell me that new Collings and Gibson mandolins are being sold close to dealer's price? Most production mandolins are nowhere near their value. You are going to pay too much for them and as soon as you walk out the door, they lose a considerable portion of their value. If you think I'm crazy, try buying a new Collings or Gibson and then put them up on the classifieds - see if you get your money back. Tattiemando is seeking an educated opinion or something supported with facts.

People need to listen to mandolins and see what appeals to them. A logo on the peghead guarantees nothing - I have seen Webers, Gibsons, and Collings that were dogs - and I don't mean that in a good sense.

Alex Fields
Mar-25-2006, 3:30pm
I wouldn't recommend buying one new, notice that I recommended a used Collings. And the statement about Webers is not uneducated. I've played numerous Webers of all the models from Bitterroots to Ferns (both new ones and used ones that have had time and play to open up) and not a single one has impressed me. All of them were solid, decent instruments, and all very well crafted, but none had a sound nearly worth the cost, even the price they sell for used. And I'm not alone in this opinion, most people I've talked to who play well and have played a wide variety of instruments at all quality levels have agreed about Webers (and newer Gibsons, for that matter).

Jerry Byers
Mar-25-2006, 3:44pm
What sound are you looking for? If you're looking for a Gibson sound, then yes, you're probably not going to find it with a Weber. But then again, there are very few mandolins being built that sound like a Gibson. If somebody wants the Gibson sound, find an used A-9. I've even seen a couple of Gibson A-5L's out there around the $2k mark. There have been numerous bargains and great values past through the classifieds. You'd be surprised how many folks are willing to sell a great mandolin cheap so they can fund a new purchase.

IMHO, I think beginning mandolins players need to focus on quality and value and get the best thing they can within their budget. The name on the mandolin should be a second consideration. I'll stand by my earlier statement about dogs. If you take a look around, you'll find a lot of used Collings, Gibson, and others that have been hanging in a store for quite some time - obviously, the name is not selling them. For example, there is a Gibson F-5L at Gruhn's signed by Derrington - why is it still there at $5500? Because it doesn't have a descent bass or chop. They put a Collings MT against it and the Gibson was blown away.

Anyways, I'm not trying to stir anything up - just trying to provide some useful discussion for new mando players.

Alex Fields
Mar-25-2006, 4:06pm
I'm not looking for any particular sound. I play practically all styles of music and I can appreciate different types of sound. I've been really impressed with instruments that have a great jazz sound but could never be used for bluegrass, woody instruments that bark and are perfect for bluegrass but couldn't be used for much else, the sweet classical tone...anything. I know enough to recognize a good sound even if it's not what I'm looking for. And I just don't think Webers are that impressive. I'm sure there are some Webers out there that sound great, but I've played enough of them to know what they sound like on average.

Kevin Briggs
Mar-25-2006, 5:38pm
This thread is proof to the position that you just have to play and see what you like.

I've played a Collings MT and thoguht the Breedlove Alpine right next to it was way "better." Furthermore, the Elliot Stelling next to the Breedlove Alpine was yet "better," maybe the best mandolin I've ever played, for my tastes.

I would never tell someone Weber's aren't worth the money. They are price dlow in today's fine mandolin market, and STE will customize your mandolin if you tell them. I picked and chose many features on my Weber, including the maple, traditional bridge, and tone bars, and it is a powerhouse mandolin, the loudest one at every jam I've participated in. It has a chunky chop and great mids. It lacks nothing, in that respect. I indicated to Bruce that I wanted a bluegrass mandolin and he exceeded my expectations. As far as break in time goes, I would compare my Weber to a brick house, in many ways. I know it's going to be there and doing better than ever 100 years from now. I wouldn't say that about a lot of mandolins on the market now.

Again, it's all personal taste. I just hate when people say "don't buy _ mandolin." There are many good qualities about many mandolins. Please respect people's ability to know their own mind.

tattiemando
Mar-25-2006, 6:31pm
Hi, there are some very knowlegeable facts on mandolins appearing on these postings, however I would like to say I live in the U.K. and the quality of new & second hand mandolins in Britain is not as plentiful as areas of the USA market. Taking this into account I am unable to visit reputable mandolin dealers, to try out their mandolins. I do feel that buying online & trying to make an educated & measured choice is my only way of obtaining a quality mandolin within my budget of $3500. I am in no hurry to buy, and I do keep an eye on the second hand & new mandolin market .Here are further more questions to consider. Does anyone know of any A model mandolin around the $3500 mark with a varnish finish (f) hole ,because the the Collings MT-2V seems to be in the $4000 plus Range ? Are the classified adds on mandolin cafe reliable ? How does buying a mandolin on Ebay compare? I still feel however an A model (F) hole is more quality for a smaller sum of money compared to the f5 style (F) hole same for example binding & finish . I will also still trawl the new & second hand market for a mandolin that goes for a very fair price.That is why I am keeping an open mind should (in my opinion) a bargain buy enter the classifieds. I do feel the desires of what mando players expect in potential purchases of mandos has driven the craftsmanship & new ideas about building mandolins up further .The buyers realy do expect quality & a diverse range of choices from builders and dealers alike.

Alex Fields
Mar-25-2006, 6:45pm
Varnish isn't necessarily that important. I custom ordered an F5 from Sim Daley and I chose a satin finish over varnish, not because of price but because the varnish finish is very easily damaged, and I think satin looks just as good or better.

There are plenty of good A style mandos in the classifieds right now. There are several Pruchas, which are great instruments, at least one Collings and a Ratcliff, etc. Just look around and don't worry about spending all of your money (nothing wrong with buying a great mandolin for less than you have and getting to keep some money).

tattiemando
Mar-25-2006, 6:46pm
The Vice- Principal of Mandolin , I could not have worded that statement better about mandolin choices because it is all abut taste, tone ,playability and what is pleasing to your ear. Here is a very intresting point a very good guitar player pointed out to me .When trying to select a mandolin, standing in the corner of a room play the instrument facing the wall and you can identify certain qualities in a mandolin by hearing the sound waves come back at you. This may not be everyones idea of determining your selection but surely it must go some way in identifying qualities and any anomolies.

tattiemando
Mar-25-2006, 6:57pm
I still beleive tone ,clarity and note separation are important and I beleive a varnish finished mandolin would facilitate these requirements. As the mandolin ages surely the tone will improve year on year this is why varnished finished mandolins are in my opinion a more suitable option for quality ,taking into account the person who carries out the varnish process is adhearing to good craftperson practices.

first string
Mar-25-2006, 7:08pm
Why not look into a small builder. It definitely seems like you can get more for your money. There are a number of excelent luthiers out there who will make you a fully bound F5 with a varnish finish and whatever other bells and whistles you desire, for less than what a basic A model drowned in nitro will run you from one of the bigger companies. Better sound (usually IMO), custom options, etc, and all you give up is the name of some corporation on the headstock.

Of course everyone is going to try and tell you that what they have is your best bet. Truth is that only you can decide what it is that best fits your needs.

Alex Fields
Mar-25-2006, 7:09pm
Varnish can make a difference in sound but not as much as you may think. Many of the best players in the world, who could use any instrument they wanted, don't play varnish instruments. For example, Adam Steffey (who's won the IBMA mandolinist of the year award what, five times now?) plays a Daley (same model as mine) with a satin finish. There are alot of factors that come to play in the quality of an instrument and varnish is not the most important. Given how much more expensive the varnish tends to be, you can generally get a better mandolin for the price with a lacquer or satin finish rather than varnish.

Kevin Briggs
Mar-25-2006, 9:15pm
Tattie,

If you're absolutely certain you want a varnish mandolin, I think you should definitely check out a Pomeroy mandolin, made by up and coming builder Don Paine.

Here's the website:
http://www.pomeroyinstruments.com/

Don offers an oil varnish finish for an extra $350. He claims the oil varnish becomes very hard as time goes on, and is a good protectant.

I have not played a Pomeroy, but this message board is filled with positive reviews of his work. For about $2800 you can get and A style with just about all of his upgrades, or whatever upgrades you think you want. It would be a full-blown, top notch A style instrument, with an oil varnish.

Just a tip.

tin ben dur
Mar-25-2006, 10:00pm
I have a custom Weber Bitterrroot (purchased from Greg Boyd) and I think it is awsome and has awsome sound. I have a friend that knows tone for sure and she even said it sounds awsome. I have full faith in her only because she has played violin and viola for about 25 years and she grew up around constant music mostly bluegrass.

HarmonyRexy
Mar-25-2006, 11:37pm
You had mentioned that you play bluegrass style.
Have you ever had the opportunity to play a STIVER?

It sounds like you have looked at lots of nice options.
I hope that you try many, many before you decide.... but try to get a Stiver on your play-list.

Happy Hunting!

Alex Fields
Mar-26-2006, 12:25am
There are three Pomeroys in the classifieds, including an A, I think. At least one of the F5s is as low as $2800...that's why you buy used, not new.

tattiemando
Mar-26-2006, 11:55am
I've noticed Ronnie McCoury playing a Gibson and I beleive it is a Lloyd Loar. I think he used to play a 1981 Gilchrist mandolin do both of these mandolins have the varnish finish . Even so I beleive it is more than just mandolin choice . It is more inportantly down to your technique, shape, tone and posture . It dosen't matter if you spend $30,000 on a mando , poor technique will never acheive good tone.Yeah these Pomeroys look realy cool and I suspect they play very well.

Alex Fields
Mar-26-2006, 12:51pm
I thought Ronnie still play a Gil. Did he get a new one or am I just wrong?

The Gil would be varnished. Most mandolins that expensive are: the varnish is generally viewed as being nicer, so most of the top dollar instruments have it. There are exceptions though: John Monteleone uses lacquer almost exclusively, and his instruments sell for as much as Gils and have about the same reputation.

It's true that, ceteris paribus, a varnish finish is likely to produce a slightly better tone. My point is just that, when you have a price limit, the varnish adds so much to the cost of the instrument that you can get a better lacquer instrument for the same price as a varnish instrument. You may find a varnish instrument in your range that sounds absolutely amazing and that you love, and if you do, that's great, go for it. But you probably shouldn't be set on getting a varnish if you really want the best instrument for the money.

Fretbear
Mar-26-2006, 1:30pm
Ronnie's Loar was hiding out in Mexico and in need of repair; he still has that X-braced Gil that he got from Grisman, it sure looks like lacquer but is probably varnish.

tattiemando
Mar-26-2006, 2:00pm
Ronnie's Gilchrist, an amazing sounding mando though a friend of mine attended the Rockygrass teaching academy in Lyons Colorado . She asked Ronnie if he would be kind enough to play a tune on her mandolin. Needless to say Ronnie obliged. My friend insists that Ronnie could make any mandolin sound like a million dollars. To me the Del McCoury band are and continue to be the most creative, clever and skilled musical minds in all music! As they say in Bonnie Scotland (MORE POWER TO YOUR ELBOWS)

Alex Fields
Mar-26-2006, 2:25pm
Granted, a great player can make just about any mandolin sound good. But with any given player, however skilled unskilled, you can still tell the difference between a good and bad mandolin.