Bluegrass going strong

[Willie Poole]

I read in the paper today that Allison Krause has won more Grammys than any other women singer ever, if thats the case then why isn`t bluegrass played more on commercial radio stations? I`ve pondered this question for many years...Willie http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[mandolooter]

Good question....my guess is this...radio executives! I feel that as time goes on the younger folks will tire of the rap, pop and other over commercialized forms of music that rule todays airwaves. It will be a slow and long process and I figure I'll be dead by then but Im fairly sure it's gonna happen. Just as the computer age has allowed more and more info to circulate, more and more folks will become disillusioned with the unemotional and "hard" attitudes going aroundthem and start looking for more "love' in there music.

I could be wrong tho...

[Kirby161]

Young people are tireing of rap and pop-rock bs. I was one of them. At first, i was the only grasser in a school of 2000 but now the list is growing.
Jams, newgrass, Dawg, the Gourds, old crow medicine show. All of these things are attractive to the teens of america; rap is passe'.

[Willie Poole]

WAMU from American Univeristy in D.C. used to play bluegrass three hours every afternoon and countless hours on weekends and then a woman program direstor came in a did some research, so she says, and found that talk shows drew more listeners and more donations to the station, which I really doubt, anyway they have cut the bluegrass back to 8 hours on Sat. night from Midnight to 8 in the morning and some on Sunday afternoons...she no longer works there but the station hasn`t changed its format, at least they hadn`t the last time I listened...I`m sure their donations had to drop off considerly....Thank God for Sirius satallite radio..Willie

[Moose]

"Turn your radio on...., turn your radio on ; and listen to the..."(source:forgotten!) - http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Steve Perry]

Thank God for Sirius satallite radio..Willie

AMEN!

[Tim]

I`m sure their donations had to drop off considerly
I don't want to connect the dots too strongly but in a few years after dropping the 3 hours of bluegrass M-F, WAMU went from having a surplus in their budget to operating at a deficit (according to a Washington Post article a few months ago).

[Moose]

YUP!!- as an "aside" let me mention this ;our/my local University FM station (I've forgotten the ###'s) holds a "radiothon($$$$) couple times a year ; keep in mind that this is a "college" FM ;(i.e. VERY eclectic music genres played) ; on 'thon days the "contributions" to/from listeners to a Bluegrass music show("Fire on the Mountain" - Sat. 10-12 p.m) ALWAYS "top" the list of "contributors(i.e. money received!) !!! - Go figure! - Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[TonyP]

The EXACT same thing happened on KUOP off the Stockton campus. Used to be in the 80's from 6am to 8pm every Sat. was one form of bluegrass/oldtime/swing/new acoustic or another with a band live often times. And that was ALWAYS far and away the best $$ brought in for pledging. Then management decided to go to more "popular" format and cut it down to like 4hrs total. Insiders said they lost their shirt and have been in the red ever since. I guess it's like when I go into someplace to see if they would like our BG band to play. If I only had a nickel for everytime I heard "yeah, I like bluegrass, but I don't think it would go over here".???

[kudzugypsy]

well guess what - SAME thing happened to our local BG show. i know the host very well and he told me they always led in the final donations by more than TWICE what the next program was...but, this is a historical black university (one of the oldest in the south) and they felt BG didnt fit in with their blues, ethnic, jazz and world music programming, so they were going to axe it, or cut it to 2hrs. - thankfully, someone mentioned the donations they would loose and they decided the cash was needed more than another 4 hours of world music.....they didnt like it, it wasnt *hip*, but when you are operating at a loss year after year after year, then some revenue stream sounds good.

btw, moose, that line is from John Hartford (Aeroplane LP)

[Steven]

This all sounds familiar,here in Maine its a miracle to get any kind of this music on the PBS television station.If I remember it was arround a year ago they advertised a Ricky Skaggs special and I set aside time to watch,was all keyed up to see a great show when the time came for it to be on they showed maybe 3 seconds of them walking on stage then blanked out the intire HOUR!I mean not even anything was substituted!It wasnt a technical thing because in exactly one hour they had on the same old rerun #### they normally have.What a waste,then they constantly beg for more funds,fat chance.

[Tim]

Getting back to the original post... #The article said that she had 17 grammy's, one more than Aretha Franklin. #After last night the count is up to 20.

[kudzugypsy]

as for the AK grammy thing - this could also be a bad thing - yes, i agree that it is great a BG gal has won the recognition, but it also shows the lack of depth in the genre getting recognition. it is along the same lines as the discussion we had about the IBMA winners...the same old names for the last DECADE...we need fresh names to keep this going. AK is still in her 30's, so i could see her adding another dozen to the total over the years. i dont know what categories she is winning in, but if you see the same person being the ONLY representative of your genre (ie the ricky skaggs syndrome) then your genre has issues.

of course, congrats to AK, that is an AMAZING accomplishment in todays entertainment environment, and unlike most of the winners, she is a true musician and artist, not some marketing tool.

.....OK - scratch everything i just said in the 1st paragraph, i just went to the grammy site to see what she won and GOOD - she beat out most of the posers, pretty boys and sex sells gals in nashvegas yet again.

[Tim]

kudzugypsy - Just yesterday I made the same points regarding the lack of competition/lack of depth making it difficult to compare Aretha Franklin winning 16 to Alison winning 17 (now 20).

[GBG]

I don't think AK is getting awards for singing/playing bluegrass. She is getting awards for singing that slow,wispy, soulful #### that makes me want to puke.

[Coy Wylie]

I sat on the 8th row last year when AKUS came to our town. It was very interesting to observe the crowd. When Ron picked up his banjo and the drummer went back stage and they kicked off a driving BG tune, the people went nuts. When Ron put down the banjo and the drummer came out and things got "slow, wispy, soulful" we all nearly went to sleep.

I'm certainly not saying that people don't like her "country" songs but the crowd (and this is not a haven for BG) responded so much better to BG.

[Tim]

I've seen AKUS live twice. #In that context the mix of the driving BG with the slow stuff worked for me. #I have found it hard to listen to her recent albums that have no uptempo stuff on them. #Of course, I find it difficult to listen to an album with all fast tunes. #I like the variety.

[levin4now]

I read that Del McCoury Band received a Grammy for Best BG album.

[Michael H Geimer]

I sure hope acoustic music sees an up-swing in popularity soon. Bluegrass, per se might only be a part of the larger, blooming modern-acoustic genre (think AKUS, Nickel Creek, YMSB and these other non-BG acoustic types).

I think acoustic acts are operating on a ;grass roots' level, and so it's no wonder that stations are dropping the shows ... BG just doesn't fit the MO of today's networks. (read up on the recent Warner/Sony payola scandal)

It is great to see real honest-to-goodness talent like AK getting some recognition, but I doubt that radio/video is going to change as a result.

Rather, I meet more and more people who have begun to ignore the media alltogether ... getting their news, arts, and entertainment from smaller, personal, better-known, better-trusted sources ( what a concept! ).

This place is fine example of why I don't need Clear Channel.

- Benig

[pathfinder]

I'm not sure what this means, but nearly twice as many people watched "American Idol" than the Grammy Awards last night, when the two music programs went head-to-head in prime time. This was according to preliminary estimates by Nielsen Media Research.

The "Idol" audience on Fox was 28.3 million while the Grammy Awards were being watched by 15.1 million people from 8 to 9 p.m. EST, Nielsen said.

I guess folks prefer the amateurs over the pros! Maybe the hype by the TV networks, the radio industry and the recording companies is coming to an end. They certainly can't ignore numbers like these.

[EggerRidgeBoy]

I think it should be noted that all three of Alison's awards last night were in Country catagories, not bluegrass (which only has one award anyway). #Well technically "Best Bluegrass Album" (won by the Del McCoury Band) is part of the Country section, too, but Alison won for "Best Country Performance By A Duo Or Group With Vocal", "Best Country Instrumental Performance", and "Best Country Album". Of Alison's 20 Grammys, 12 have been for Country Performances, five for Bluegrass, one for Contemporary Folk, one for Gospel, and one for Album of the Year.

[Paul Kotapish]

btw, moose, that line is from John Hartford (Aeroplane LP)
Just for the record, although John Hartford did record and perform "Turn Your Radio On," it was written by Albert E. Brumley, a southern gospel-music songwriter, performer, publisher, and concert promoter. He also wrote "I'll Fly Away." Many of his songs are standards in the bluegrass and old-time music world.

As for the popularity of bluegrass and old-time music, it appears to be approaching a high point on the left coast at the moment. For centuries there has been a recurring cycle of waxing and waning interest in traditional music forms. Scholars who pay attention to this sort of thing cite 30 years or so as a typical cycle. I have no idea whether that's right or not, but it jibes with my experience. There was definitely a bump in interest in tradtional American folk-music forms around the time of the great folk scare of the '60s which endured for about 15 years or so. I remember that Newsweek ran a story about Bill Monroe and bluegrass back then and noted it as a rising musical form. I doubt that they have mentioned the music again in the intervening years. Now it seems to be on the rise again.

Congratulations to AK for her achievements, and thanks to the Academy for at least acknowledging the form, but I doubt that any number of Grammy awards will open new ears to the music. I suspect that most of us discover new musical territory either by close association through friends and family or by a transformational experience of some kind. I grew up around bluegrass but never paid much attention to it then. My high-school rock band even split gigs with the Country Gentlemen, but although I recognized those guys as great players, I just couldn't get into the music until I was a bit older and found a way to understand through the flatpicking of Doc Watson, Clarence White, and a very young Tony Rice. Interest in mandolin came later, by the crooked route of a Nitty Gritty Dirt Band album.

Bluegrass was on the radio and those guys might have been getting awards, but until the music struck a chord for me personally, it existed in another universe.

[mandocrucian]

from the Jimmy Sturr website:
SHAKE RATTLE AND POLKA...Scores Grammy #15!!!

Which by some form of convoluted logic would mean that Jimmy Sturr is FIVE TIMES BETTER than either the ole Possom George Jones and/or Merle Haggard, who both only have a paltry 3 Grammys each. #(And Sturr earned all of his in the mean, nasty, dog-eat-dog, take-no-prisoners "Polka" category.)

So how come we don't hear 3 Jimmy Sturr tunes for every 4 AKUS tracks? Demand mathematical quota-based justice from your radio stations!!!!

AKUS, AKUS, AKUS, AKUS, Sturr, Sturr, Sturr (BTW, that's a protest chant in 7/4)

[kudzugypsy]

when i went to the grammy site, i saw that POLKA catagory also (it has its OWN catagory!) , and was thinking, you got to be kidding...they must not be able to group polka in another catagory like BG. its like nobody wants polka in their catagory!

[jim simpson]

Polka! You can't even find a polka station on XM or Sirius. It burns me up I tell ya!

[Don Christy]

I'm not sure what this means, but nearly twice as many people watched "American Idol" than the Grammy Awards last night
I don't think it's the amateur versus the pro music so much. I certainly could be wrong, but I don't people watch Idol for the music. I think they watch it to see the stinging critisms, the clankers, and to get caught up in the rags-to-riches aspect of someone having a chance to make it.

Back on topic, there's very little BG on the radio in St. Louis. There are a couple of shows on a local non-profit community station (not NPR related) that play some BG and OT on Saturdays.

Don

[GBG]

Don, if you live in an radio area that plays ANY bluegrass/oldtime/acoustic music you should be grateful. Try South Louisiana some time.

[keymandoplyr]

Ill take Linda Rhonstat over Allison any day of the week. I think Nashville like AK because they have changed country to pop and she fits in that category. Just haping bluegrass survives Nashville http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[AlanN]

AK has won Grammys and is popular across demographics PRECISLEY because she doesn't do the hard-core, mountain thing exclusively, if at all.

Face it folks, that music has limited broad-based fan appeal.

[hellindc]

I like Del's stuff and own most of his CDs, but am I the only one who thinks there were better options this year for the BG grammy?

[Brady Smith]

I was hoping Cherryholmes would win the grammy for best bluegrass album. #I thought that was the obvious choice. #But if the grammys have the same people picking best young rapper I guess you it's anybody's game. #Surprised U2 didn't win best bluegrass album. #In my 35 years I have never turned the grammy's on until I turned it on this year to see if Cherryholmes would get it done #(still had to find out they didn't on the internet). #That show is horrible!

For bluegrass to become more popular, groups (bands) and radio stations (that play bluegrass) need to stop playing the "god-awful" sounding stuff and concentrate on what people enjoy. #For example and it can be applied to alot of bluegrass, IMHO people went crazy with the O' brother movie and actually have bought alot of the soundtracks unfortunately there were a heck of a lot of songs on it that just really bring the music down. Worked good in the movie but not something you want to hear coming out of your truck.

I'm the biggest bluegrass fan I've ever met and have 'shared' my music with anyone that will listen but can't get many to enjoy it because too much of what's being played on the radio (bluegrass radio) sounds vocally horrid to them and to an extent would have to agree.

[kudzugypsy]

well this topic is taking all kinds of twists and turns, but still a great thread.

i will sort of chime in to say, as brady has, that i have been a LONG time listener to BG radio, and I am very lucky to be in NC where there are numerous very established BG shows (one even on the country powerhouse station) - but i agree, the quality of some of the current stuff is really dimishing in general - i'm not ranting, its just an observation - i found myself driving home last night listening to the BG show for 1.5 hrs, and i turned it off more times than i listened, it was just that weak and cliched. i think you get to a point like that after listening seriously to any genre for 20 years. imo, i detect the *self produced* CD projects as the main culprit, though not entirely - this again, isnt a rant against self-made projects, i have one, and my group has one that was 75% self made, but you hear bad mixing, bad production, poor recording tech, etc, - in a way, its great that your average local band/performer can get their stuff on the radio, and in general, i think its great, but i find myself listening more saying, come on, give me the "hook"!
**by self-produced, i mean, done in a project studio, or outside a professional studio.

for one example of a great *new* band on the scene (not new, they have been around for years) - try the Bluegrass Brothers - i think you will be impressed - this is the REAL stuff baby!

[Tweeder]

Young people are tireing of rap and pop-rock bs. I was one of them. At first, i was the only grasser in a school of 2000 but now the list is growing.
Jams, newgrass, Dawg, the Gourds, old crow medicine show. All of these things are attractive to the teens of america; rap is passe'.
I couldn't agree more! I'm old at 25 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif, but in the last year I was introduced to bluegrass/newgrass and fell in love! A Doc Watson, Bill Monroe Duet is what got me started. Then I went on to find out that Jerry Garcia played the banjo. (I had turned into a Deadhead about 5 years ago) Once I heard the "Not For Kids Only" stuff that Jerry did with Dawg, I never looked back! I still love the old stuff, like Flatt and Scruggs, Old and in the Way, The Del McCoury band and so on. But the Newgrass/Hippiegrass bands like Hot Buttered Rum String Band, Yonder Mountain String Band and others tend to be what I listen to the most, and are the bands that are bringing the younger kids into the fold of bluegrass. I just ordered my first mando today, so we'll see how it goes! Pick on http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Willie Poole]

Correction...I "am the greatest blugrass fan that anyone has ever met"....Look at it this way, when the originals were being recorded the studios didn`t have all of the electronic marvels that are there now and true a lot of them do sound awful but thats what brought us to the dance...A whole lot of the oldies have been re recorded and by bands that do a good job on their vocals and they are great songs....Most of the older folks like to hear the originals and I`ll be honest will you at most of the festival where I have performed and attended the older folks will spent 5 times as much money on CD`s and tapes as the younger folks, maybe because they have more money but I think it is because they still want the old timey sound....If you have ever seen Flatt and Scruggs work with the old one mic system you will know what I mean....Willie

[reely989]

Well, to me it would be best if Bluegrass music stayed out of the mainstream. To me that means people are just doing something for the sake of appeasing everyone else. It is an awesome form of music in that it is big enough to have stuff to listen to and people to play with, but u don't have a ton of people who listen and play it but dont understand the history. John Hartford made a statement similar to this on the documentary "Gather at the River". He viewed bluegrass as a small town, and popularity as a company trying to industrialize the town. At the end he says "I dont think I'm ready for that yet,".

But back to AK, I really don't think she deserves a grammy over some other groups, well in the country category she does i guess. She fits the mainstream view, which is what i don't like about her new stuff. Too slow, too often. In my opinion, Douglas should leave and get with a band that lets him stretch out more, but that is an opinion for another discussion, another time.

All the above is my opinion only,
Caleb

[bsimmers]

AK may not be everyone's favorite, but not bluegrass??? How about Charlie Waller in the 60's and 70's? The Osbornes? The Scene? Newgrass Revival? AK's wide appeal has brought more fans to buegrass, and it has not watered it down. Del and Skaggs are still hard core and it's $40+ per ticket to see themm. There are people who are now open to listening to bluegrass......who prior to AK, would say, "Oh, you mean that stuff where they sing through their noses, an octave too high, and sound like they've smoked too many cigarettes." Now they are willing to at least listen to any of it and see if they like it. They will like some of it, and some it they won't. Just like the rest of us.
Who defined bluegrass anyhow? Isn't it acoustic instruments with harmony singing, usually with a banjo? AK has that!!! Maybe not enough banjo to suit all of us, but Rice doesn't have banjo on a lot of his stuff. And Charlie Waller used snare drums on a lot of stuff.
Just an opinion, but I think AK has brought lots of fans and money to bluegrass. Also, Ron Block is a HUGE part of her success.
I like Bill Monroe. But, I like AK/Ron Block, too. You don't have to like it, but it's bluegrass.
Bob
I anticipate responses!

[fatt-dad]

and some on Sunday afternoons...
don't tell me they cancelled the "Stained Glass Bluegrass" show on Sunday mornings?

fatt really-getting-bothered-by-WAMU dad

[Lefty&French]

(...)I'm old at 25 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif, but in the last year I was introduced to bluegrass/newgrass and fell in love! A Doc Watson, Bill Monroe Duet is what got me started. Then I went on to find out that Jerry Garcia played the banjo. (I had turned into a Deadhead about 5 years ago) Once I heard the "Not For Kids Only" stuff that Jerry did with Dawg, I never looked back! I still love the old stuff, like Flatt and Scruggs, Old and in the Way, The Del McCoury band and so on. But the Newgrass/Hippiegrass bands like Hot Buttered Rum String Band, Yonder Mountain String Band and others tend to be what I listen to the most, and are the bands that are bringing the younger kids into the fold of bluegrass. I just ordered my first mando today, so we'll see how it goes! Pick on http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
Old & in the Way, old stuff ?
Panama Red, Wild Horses, Midnight Moonlight, Kissimmee Kid, Land of the Navajo ? Not that old!
Hardcore bluegrass fans used to look at it as "Newgrass/Hippiegrass"...

[reely989]

After reading my last post, I see a mistake. I said AK was country, due to miswording. I will agree that she is bluegrass, but it is smooth enough to fit peoples standard of country music as well. They are all top rate musicians as well, but as for their song choices, I just can't listen to a lot of her stuff in one sitting. Her stuff to me is like, put in the album, listen to one song, then move to another, but that is just me. Once again, i didn't mean to imply in my last post that she wasn't bluegrass. I just meant that she does sometimes fit the country category as well as the bluegrass category

Caleb

[Willie Poole]

Fatt-Dad...I am in Florida for the winter but before I left to come down Stained Glass Bluegrass was still on on Sunday mornings but Red Shipley is/was in bad health and I`m not sure he is still with us...I can call home and find out about his health or maybe some one on here can enlighten us....`til later....Willie

[Brady Smith]

Ref: AK being country.

My wife and I just had that discussion just a day or two before you mentioned that and have to disagree. #We had come to the conclusion that AK could not fit any other genre of music with her voice and that being country too.

[mandobando]

Good thread. I'm happy for AKUS on all her Grammy and commercial success. They have the best of both worlds from the way I see it. They can put some drums in the mix and make some money on commercial radio and then bring out the banjo and blister a song like cluck ole' hen. They're nothing but bluegrassers who have made a bit of a sacrifice in the commercial pop country world and this will allow them to do what they love in a very comfortable fashoin financially speaking, play music. Very few folks have the goods like Allison K. She's attractive with a singing voice that everyone loves, and she happens to be a world class fiddle player. As for bluegrass on the radio, it's just never gonna be as big as the machine that is corporate radio and major labels. Thank God for specialty shows and publically funded radio stations and sirious radio. I work at an independent label and deal with this very problem every day. Bluegrass is almost all the country we,ve got left and it still will not get any airtime because radio likes to spin records from guys who used to be in a soap opera and have now bought some boots and womens jeans and claim to be country music singers. Country radio has gotten so bad that they won't even spin Merle Haggard's new record and this should be done just out of principle. I was listening to Blue Highway's Marbletown today and just thinking "man if people just heard this they would love it" but then again my wife would rather listen to Kenny Cheesy and she's the target audience for country radio unfortunately. People who like good music have to seek out good music. People who don't like thoughtless watered down overproduced #### can just turn on the radio. It seems a bit backward but thats the way the machine works. I'll quit ramblin. Take care all.

[keymandoplyr]

polka,polka ! why oh why did i buy a used accordion ?? will I ever learn all 120 of those bass notes ??Especially when its not a stradella system ?? lol Better stick to my mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Willie Poole]

Well lets face it, she, like a few other newer "Bluegrass" bands are being booked as country, Bluegrass, rock, folk and I don`t know what all...More money that way...They used to call it "Cross Over" now it`s considered good business....Willie