PDA

View Full Version : 3/4 or 6/8



John Bertotti
Jan-31-2006, 10:38pm
So why do we have both? Seems to me one is just faster. Take 3/4 put in 1/8 notes and play quicker. What am I missing? Thanks John

Eugene
Jan-31-2006, 10:57pm
6/8 often (but not always) implies grouping beats into two groups of three. #Consider a bar of eighth notes mid 3/4 waltz: it would likely be conceptualized as 1-and-2-and-3-and. #A bar in a 6/8 jig likely would be conceptualized as two strong beats in triplet: 1-2-3-2-2-3.

Jim Broyles
Jan-31-2006, 11:01pm
With the 6/8 time signature, the pulse is actually two beats per measure, 1 beat for every 3 eighth notes, so the meter doesn't feel the same for 3/4 and 6/8. Here's an article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3/4_time) which explains the difference. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6/8_Time) one about 6/8 time.

sbarnes
Feb-01-2006, 1:16am
3/4 is simple meter - the beat can be divided by 2
6/8 is compound meter - the beat is usually divided by 3

glauber
Feb-01-2006, 1:27am
All that has already been said. It's a matter of "feel"; in 6/8 you're thinking in longer lines than 3/4 (at least, that's how it feels to me). A lot of stuff one sees notated in 3/4, especially beginner level, is really in 6/8 (e.g.: "Silent Night", "Greensleeves", etc). There's also 9/8 and 12/8, for even longer lines.

A similar difference is between 2/2 and 4/4. In that case, you can have exactly the same notes, but be thinking 2 beats or 4 beats.

In some cases, the signature is open to interpretation. For example, it's not really wrong to write "Silent Night" in 3/4, just a different feel. In other cases, the style dictates the signature; for a real weird example, i once saw a transcription of Jimmy Hendrix's solo in "All Along the Watchtower" that was in 12/8, and really if you notated it any other way, you would end up with more than the 12 measures dictated by the Blues format. For a more common example, jigs are in 6/8, slip jigs are in 9/8.

John Bertotti
Feb-01-2006, 2:19am
Thanks all I think I see what you mean. All depending on how you want your emphasis made. I'll have to play with it and find some good examples to listen to. I may try doing the same song both ways to really hear the difference. Thanks John

fatt-dad
Feb-01-2006, 8:27am
Doesn't it also have to do with the phrasing of the music? For 3/4 there would be 12 beats in the four-measure phrase. For 6/8 there would be 24 beats per four-measure phrase (notwithstanding that it's beat as two per measure, so maybe actually it would sound as 8 triplets per phrase).

fatt not-really-sure dad

Eugene
Feb-01-2006, 8:32am
sbarnes, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. #Did you post in reverse of your intention, or are you talking about dividing the pulses in 3/4 into eighth notes?

Once again, this isn't always the case. #Hemiola was a device in baroque dance music where the strong pulse (especially in threes) shifted around. #Courantes especially were often notated in 6/8 but shifted between measures of 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 1-2-3-4-5-6.

Tom C
Feb-01-2006, 9:28am
Tunes in 6/8 are jigs. Irish Washer Woman is a good example.
Tunes in 3/4 are waltzes.

skippy
Feb-01-2006, 11:13am
I always use the song America from West Side Story.

Lyrics:
I like to be in America
Ok by me in America


1 bat of 6/8 1 bar of 3/4

I like to be in A (those are the six of the 6/8 time, notice the grouping in three I Like to and be in a

Then mer ric ca is the 3/4 for part... but instead of eight notes, it switches to quater notes (hence the switch to 3/4)

If you count out the measure, the number of beats doesn't change, but it gives a really neat syncopation due to the change

da-da-da da-da-da

DO DO DO

da-da-da da-da-da

DO DO DO

but the do are just two das tied together... cool stuff.

John Bertotti
Feb-01-2006, 2:37pm
Eugene that helped and everyone else thanks also. There sure are a lot of thoughts on this. I am presuming Eugene's post above to be the basic rule. Once I have it I'll worry about the variation. Thanks John

Eugene
Feb-01-2006, 7:35pm
Tunes in 6/8 are jigs. Irish Washer Woman is a good example.
Tunes in 3/4 are waltzes.
This isn't quite right, Tom. You could say "jigs are tunes in 6/8" and "waltzes are tunes in 3/4", but the other way around neglects all the mazurkas, minuets, tarantellas, sarabandes, courantes, galliards, etc.

Eugene
Feb-01-2006, 7:42pm
I always use the song America from West Side Story.

Lyrics:
I like to be in America
Ok by me in America


1 bar of 6/8 1 bar of 3/4
This is a common Spanish/Latin convention that probably dates to the 1500s or earlier (like the hemiolas to which I'd referred earlier). #Check out Rob MacKillop's excellent recording of Narvaez's "Guardame las vacas" at his Music in Time (http://www.musicintime.co.uk/Narvaez.htm) site. In baroque tablatures, it was pretty common to give no more time signature than "3" and let the player sort out shifting pulses.

Martin Jonas
Feb-02-2006, 9:12am
In baroque tablatures, it was pretty common to give no more time signature than "3" and let the player sort out shifting pulses.
"Tordion" being a good point in case for that shifting pulse from 6/8 to 3/4 and back.

Also good fun are German "Zwiefacher" dances, in which measures of 3/4 and 2/4 alternate and the dancers actually switch their dancing moves accordingly, from a (fairly) standard waltz on the 3/4 measures to a twirling move on the 2/4 measures. Keeps musicians and dancers on their toes (or on each others; if things go wrong...).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, and should be mentioned, is that 6/8 actually has a lot more in common with 2/4 than with 3/4. Both 6/8 and 2/4 have two beats per bar; and 6/8 is really only a shorthand saving yourself the hassle of indicating the notes for every beat as triplets.

Martin

billkilpatrick
Feb-02-2006, 9:49am
hemiole was discussed here:

http://groups.google.com/group....9ce989d (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.early/browse_frm/thread/ab519d1089ce989d)

... from where the following link to a period source translation was posted: #

http://jducoeur.org/IlBallarino/

GTison
Feb-02-2006, 10:43am
Lots of marches are in 6/8. Similar to 2/4 time as mentioned but many times the music will give notes to the conductor as to how to direct. Whether in 2 beat time, or 6.

Katie
Feb-02-2006, 7:56pm
"Tordion" being a good point in case for that shifting pulse from 6/8 to 3/4 and back.
I love Tourdion. #Have you ever heard Owain Phyfe's version where he throws in a 9/8 measure in the middle? #It's great. #Plus it's the only version I've heard with the lyrics. #It's a drinking song. #Convidando Esta la noche (pardon my lack of Spanish) is another one. #There's a great recording of it by the Harp Consort.

Eugene
Feb-02-2006, 10:09pm
Yes, and live too. I actually like wacky lad Owain's work quite a bit, but I would like it more if he didn't make any pretense to historic authenticity. I was once priveleged to chat with him after a performance at a renaissance fair. In discussing his modern 6-string guitar (pin bridge, six strings, banjo-like tuners, etc.) obviously built to ape the Jacquemart-Andre vihuela, he tried to convince me this thing of his was a chitarra battente. He would have been much more convincing if I'd had no familiarity with the chitarra battente.

Eugene
Feb-02-2006, 10:18pm
I feel obliged to clarify a little: hemiola is not the constant shifting of pulse in a 6/8 piece, but essentially a composed rhythmic ornament where a piece in a triple meter features a couple bars to ape duple meter. They were common in baroque cadences. I was only implying that the shifting pulse in "America" is "like" hemiola in following a rather old convention that involves shifting pulse.

Dfyngravity
Feb-04-2006, 11:28am
pick stroke is also different, well atleast I think. Isn't 6/8 supposed to be play DUD DUD which gives it "bouncy" like rhythm (strong weak strong strong weak strong...ect)

Eugene
Feb-04-2006, 2:39pm
pick stroke is also different, well atleast I think. Isn't 6/8 supposed to be play DUD DUD which gives it "bouncy" like rhythm (strong weak strong strong weak strong...ect)
I would argue that you shouldn't approach the whole realm of a time signature with such a rigidly prescriptive approach.

Dfyngravity
Feb-04-2006, 4:02pm
i def. agree with you eugene, i don't use the DUD DUD all the time for 6/8..i should have said that. i like using it when i want to emphasize that type of rhythm.

Eugene
Feb-05-2006, 12:58pm
Absolutely. You can find many 6/8 passages in music specifically composed for mandolin where cross-string triplets are built to be played DUD DUD, DDU DDU, UDD UDD, etc. If a triplet passage is particularly scalar, I'll often play it in straight alternate strokes.

david blair
Feb-13-2006, 5:59am
Samba music also comes in 6/8. And slip jigs come in 9/8!

mancmando
Feb-13-2006, 8:32am
...and slides come in 12/8

jmcgann
Feb-13-2006, 9:04am
Almost all traditional Irish musicians play jigs DUD DUD. That keeps the dotted quarter note 2 feeling intact.

John Bertotti
Feb-13-2006, 11:30am
Ok after re reading all this am I correct with two beats per measure in 6/8? Do I have to watch for, or are there any rules to the exception in that?

Also Now that some one brought up 9/8 and 12/8 how many beats per measure are they and what are the exceptions?

Everyone thanks this is helping a lot. John

Jim Broyles
Feb-13-2006, 5:14pm
9/8 generally feels like 1-2-3/2-2-3/3-2-3 in each measure.
12/8 would be 1-2-3/2-2-3/3-2-3/4-2-3 in each measure.

twaaang
Feb-13-2006, 6:11pm
A lot of blues is written in 12/8. -- Paul

John Bertotti
Feb-13-2006, 8:45pm
I should have written it down like that jbmando. Sure makes a lot more sense seeing it like that. twaaang I haven't even thought of trying blues yet good info though. Thanks all. John

jus
Feb-14-2006, 12:14am
Since Irish music has been given in examples, what is the time signature for the tune Sheebeg and Sheemore by the Irish harper Turlough O'Carolan which I hope some of you may know... been having an ongoing argument with a guitarist friend about whether its in 3/4 or 6/8 , i feel it in two ... any thoughts?

twaaang
Feb-14-2006, 12:41pm
I hear it in threes.

Go to ABC TuneFinder and just key in "Sheebeg". 42 out of 42 choices are in 3/4 time. -- Paul