View Full Version : 3/4 or 6/8
John Bertotti
Jan-31-2006, 10:38pm
So why do we have both? Seems to me one is just faster. Take 3/4 put in 1/8 notes and play quicker. What am I missing? Thanks John
Eugene
Jan-31-2006, 10:57pm
6/8 often (but not always) implies grouping beats into two groups of three. #Consider a bar of eighth notes mid 3/4 waltz: it would likely be conceptualized as 1-and-2-and-3-and. #A bar in a 6/8 jig likely would be conceptualized as two strong beats in triplet: 1-2-3-2-2-3.
Jim Broyles
Jan-31-2006, 11:01pm
With the 6/8 time signature, the pulse is actually two beats per measure, 1 beat for every 3 eighth notes, so the meter doesn't feel the same for 3/4 and 6/8. Here's an article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3/4_time) which explains the difference. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6/8_Time) one about 6/8 time.
sbarnes
Feb-01-2006, 1:16am
3/4 is simple meter - the beat can be divided by 2
6/8 is compound meter - the beat is usually divided by 3
glauber
Feb-01-2006, 1:27am
All that has already been said. It's a matter of "feel"; in 6/8 you're thinking in longer lines than 3/4 (at least, that's how it feels to me). A lot of stuff one sees notated in 3/4, especially beginner level, is really in 6/8 (e.g.: "Silent Night", "Greensleeves", etc). There's also 9/8 and 12/8, for even longer lines.
A similar difference is between 2/2 and 4/4. In that case, you can have exactly the same notes, but be thinking 2 beats or 4 beats.
In some cases, the signature is open to interpretation. For example, it's not really wrong to write "Silent Night" in 3/4, just a different feel. In other cases, the style dictates the signature; for a real weird example, i once saw a transcription of Jimmy Hendrix's solo in "All Along the Watchtower" that was in 12/8, and really if you notated it any other way, you would end up with more than the 12 measures dictated by the Blues format. For a more common example, jigs are in 6/8, slip jigs are in 9/8.
John Bertotti
Feb-01-2006, 2:19am
Thanks all I think I see what you mean. All depending on how you want your emphasis made. I'll have to play with it and find some good examples to listen to. I may try doing the same song both ways to really hear the difference. Thanks John
fatt-dad
Feb-01-2006, 8:27am
Doesn't it also have to do with the phrasing of the music? For 3/4 there would be 12 beats in the four-measure phrase. For 6/8 there would be 24 beats per four-measure phrase (notwithstanding that it's beat as two per measure, so maybe actually it would sound as 8 triplets per phrase).
fatt not-really-sure dad
Eugene
Feb-01-2006, 8:32am
sbarnes, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. #Did you post in reverse of your intention, or are you talking about dividing the pulses in 3/4 into eighth notes?
Once again, this isn't always the case. #Hemiola was a device in baroque dance music where the strong pulse (especially in threes) shifted around. #Courantes especially were often notated in 6/8 but shifted between measures of 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 1-2-3-4-5-6.
Tunes in 6/8 are jigs. Irish Washer Woman is a good example.
Tunes in 3/4 are waltzes.
skippy
Feb-01-2006, 11:13am
I always use the song America from West Side Story.
Lyrics:
I like to be in America
Ok by me in America
1 bat of 6/8 1 bar of 3/4
I like to be in A (those are the six of the 6/8 time, notice the grouping in three I Like to and be in a
Then mer ric ca is the 3/4 for part... but instead of eight notes, it switches to quater notes (hence the switch to 3/4)
If you count out the measure, the number of beats doesn't change, but it gives a really neat syncopation due to the change
da-da-da da-da-da
DO DO DO
da-da-da da-da-da
DO DO DO
but the do are just two das tied together... cool stuff.
John Bertotti
Feb-01-2006, 2:37pm
Eugene that helped and everyone else thanks also. There sure are a lot of thoughts on this. I am presuming Eugene's post above to be the basic rule. Once I have it I'll worry about the variation. Thanks John
Eugene
Feb-01-2006, 7:35pm
Tunes in 6/8 are jigs. Irish Washer Woman is a good example.
Tunes in 3/4 are waltzes.
This isn't quite right, Tom. You could say "jigs are tunes in 6/8" and "waltzes are tunes in 3/4", but the other way around neglects all the mazurkas, minuets, tarantellas, sarabandes, courantes, galliards, etc.
Eugene
Feb-01-2006, 7:42pm
I always use the song America from West Side Story.
Lyrics:
I like to be in America
Ok by me in America
1 bar of 6/8 1 bar of 3/4
This is a common Spanish/Latin convention that probably dates to the 1500s or earlier (like the hemiolas to which I'd referred earlier). #Check out Rob MacKillop's excellent recording of Narvaez's "Guardame las vacas" at his Music in Time (http://www.musicintime.co.uk/Narvaez.htm) site. In baroque tablatures, it was pretty common to give no more time signature than "3" and let the player sort out shifting pulses.
Martin Jonas
Feb-02-2006, 9:12am
In baroque tablatures, it was pretty common to give no more time signature than "3" and let the player sort out shifting pulses.
"Tordion" being a good point in case for that shifting pulse from 6/8 to 3/4 and back.
Also good fun are German "Zwiefacher" dances, in which measures of 3/4 and 2/4 alternate and the dancers actually switch their dancing moves accordingly, from a (fairly) standard waltz on the 3/4 measures to a twirling move on the 2/4 measures. Keeps musicians and dancers on their toes (or on each others; if things go wrong...).
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, and should be mentioned, is that 6/8 actually has a lot more in common with 2/4 than with 3/4. Both 6/8 and 2/4 have two beats per bar; and 6/8 is really only a shorthand saving yourself the hassle of indicating the notes for every beat as triplets.
Martin
billkilpatrick
Feb-02-2006, 9:49am
hemiole was discussed here:
http://groups.google.com/group....9ce989d (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.early/browse_frm/thread/ab519d1089ce989d)
... from where the following link to a period source translation was posted: #
http://jducoeur.org/IlBallarino/
GTison
Feb-02-2006, 10:43am
Lots of marches are in 6/8. Similar to 2/4 time as mentioned but many times the music will give notes to the conductor as to how to direct. Whether in 2 beat time, or 6.
"Tordion" being a good point in case for that shifting pulse from 6/8 to 3/4 and back.
I love Tourdion. #Have you ever heard Owain Phyfe's version where he throws in a 9/8 measure in the middle? #It's great. #Plus it's the only version I've heard with the lyrics. #It's a drinking song. #Convidando Esta la noche (pardon my lack of Spanish) is another one. #There's a great recording of it by the Harp Consort.
Eugene
Feb-02-2006, 10:09pm
Yes, and live too. I actually like wacky lad Owain's work quite a bit, but I would like it more if he didn't make any pretense to historic authenticity. I was once priveleged to chat with him after a performance at a renaissance fair. In discussing his modern 6-string guitar (pin bridge, six strings, banjo-like tuners, etc.) obviously built to ape the Jacquemart-Andre vihuela, he tried to convince me this thing of his was a chitarra battente. He would have been much more convincing if I'd had no familiarity with the chitarra battente.
Eugene
Feb-02-2006, 10:18pm
I feel obliged to clarify a little: hemiola is not the constant shifting of pulse in a 6/8 piece, but essentially a composed rhythmic ornament where a piece in a triple meter features a couple bars to ape duple meter. They were common in baroque cadences. I was only implying that the shifting pulse in "America" is "like" hemiola in following a rather old convention that involves shifting pulse.
Dfyngravity
Feb-04-2006, 11:28am
pick stroke is also different, well atleast I think. Isn't 6/8 supposed to be play DUD DUD which gives it "bouncy" like rhythm (strong weak strong strong weak strong...ect)
Eugene
Feb-04-2006, 2:39pm
pick stroke is also different, well atleast I think. Isn't 6/8 supposed to be play DUD DUD which gives it "bouncy" like rhythm (strong weak strong strong weak strong...ect)
I would argue that you shouldn't approach the whole realm of a time signature with such a rigidly prescriptive approach.
Dfyngravity
Feb-04-2006, 4:02pm
i def. agree with you eugene, i don't use the DUD DUD all the time for 6/8..i should have said that. i like using it when i want to emphasize that type of rhythm.
Eugene
Feb-05-2006, 12:58pm
Absolutely. You can find many 6/8 passages in music specifically composed for mandolin where cross-string triplets are built to be played DUD DUD, DDU DDU, UDD UDD, etc. If a triplet passage is particularly scalar, I'll often play it in straight alternate strokes.
david blair
Feb-13-2006, 5:59am
Samba music also comes in 6/8. And slip jigs come in 9/8!
mancmando
Feb-13-2006, 8:32am
...and slides come in 12/8
jmcgann
Feb-13-2006, 9:04am
Almost all traditional Irish musicians play jigs DUD DUD. That keeps the dotted quarter note 2 feeling intact.
John Bertotti
Feb-13-2006, 11:30am
Ok after re reading all this am I correct with two beats per measure in 6/8? Do I have to watch for, or are there any rules to the exception in that?
Also Now that some one brought up 9/8 and 12/8 how many beats per measure are they and what are the exceptions?
Everyone thanks this is helping a lot. John
Jim Broyles
Feb-13-2006, 5:14pm
9/8 generally feels like 1-2-3/2-2-3/3-2-3 in each measure.
12/8 would be 1-2-3/2-2-3/3-2-3/4-2-3 in each measure.
twaaang
Feb-13-2006, 6:11pm
A lot of blues is written in 12/8. -- Paul
John Bertotti
Feb-13-2006, 8:45pm
I should have written it down like that jbmando. Sure makes a lot more sense seeing it like that. twaaang I haven't even thought of trying blues yet good info though. Thanks all. John
Since Irish music has been given in examples, what is the time signature for the tune Sheebeg and Sheemore by the Irish harper Turlough O'Carolan which I hope some of you may know... been having an ongoing argument with a guitarist friend about whether its in 3/4 or 6/8 , i feel it in two ... any thoughts?
twaaang
Feb-14-2006, 12:41pm
I hear it in threes.
Go to ABC TuneFinder and just key in "Sheebeg". 42 out of 42 choices are in 3/4 time. -- Paul