thumb

[bradeinhorn]

where exactly should you put it. is it wrong to have it hanging over the fretboard.

[Jim Garber]

Some books suggest a "classical" position with the pad of the thumb tip on the centerline of the back of the neck at all times, but that feels weak, unstable, and disorienting to me.
I think that that "centerline" position is more of a classical guitar technique. I don't think that it works on any of the modern instruments -- by modern I mean late 1800s to now. You are correct: that does feel weak and unstable.

Here is an illustration from one of the classical method books by Carlo Munier. As you can see the thumb does extend. This is similar to classical violin technique. You would not see a violinist having the thumb on the centerline of the neck.

Jim

[MandoJon]

I could very well have been conflating guitar instruction ideas w/mando.

Nope- I've seen the advice to put your thumb in the middle of the neck in mandolin books and I think it is the author (and Mel Bay is one culprit I can think of) who is misleading you and not your memory of what they said.

Before I confuse you and further I am with Jim on this. I am working through a study method by Bickford (1925) and he concurs with Carlo Munier, having a very similar picture in his book. Also I have a book by Christafero (similar vintage) that has an almost identical line drawing too. Padraig Carol (Irish folk mandolin ~1970) advises the exact same thing and coming bang up to date, Simon Mayor has pictures in his books just like Munier.

So there we have it - 5 top mandolinist who all say NOT to hold the mandolin like a classical guitar.

[Jim Garber]

I would love to see a mandolin player who does play in the classical guitar position. I can't imagine that would work very well unless the neck were wider.

Jim

[bsimmers]

The Herschel Sizemore accutab DVD shows his thumb on the back of the neck, sort of parallel with the neck.

[gschmidt]

I would say there is no "correct" way to put it. Look at the difference between Thile and Marshall. I started with my thumb more towards the middle of the neck, but was having difficulty with those big chop chords. After watching Mike Marshall, I tried a "deeper" position and EVERYTHING changed and was much easier for me. I have big hands, so that could be why that position works for me. YMMV

[Dylan Hatch]

Thanks for starting this thread- this has just recently been giving me fits!
I had started off playing with the base of my forefinger resting against the neck, and the thumb projecting somewhat. #I haven't been playing that long, and I started looking for a picture to show me what position was correct. #Of the materials I have, the only one showing a clear picture was That Mel Bay Book. #Of course, I looked at it, thought 'Okelydokely', and tried my best to start using that position. #Weak and unstable are exactly the words I would use for it. #Really glad to see the confirmation here, though- I was worried that I just couldn't do it because I had given myself bad habits! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Celtic Saguaro]

The centerline business actually comes from the way a violin is held where the pad of the thumb is under the neck!

Most mandolin players will have some of their thumb sticking up above the neck. How much often doesn't matter. #You just want to remember that you will have the greatest range with your fingers if your whole hand including your thumb can move up and down the neck.

Mel Bay's info on the subject is kind of a joke. If you look at the picture of him demonstrating how to hold the mandolin, he's got his thumb on the centerline. #But, if you look later in the book his thumb consistantly sticks up above the neck! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Jim Garber]

The centerline business actually comes from the way a violin is held where the pad of the thumb is under the neck!
I have not checked out many violin methods but I don;t think I have seen too many violinists play with the pad of the thumb under the neck. Maybe on the side of the neck as in the attached. (from the Maia Bang Violin method 1919)

Jim

[dunbarhamlin]

Though I haven't played violin for many years (I value my ears too much) I seem to remember thumb position follows a near quarter helical path from low on the side of the neck at the nut to center at the heel depending on ones position. The important thing is that its placement remain fluid and flexible, as its principle role is that of a fulcrum about which the fingers can act, not to provide basic support for the instrument.

Steve

[Celtic Saguaro]

I guess I over stated it. But notice in the picture the pad of the thumb is actually in positon to support the neck of the violin, which it can't do in the case of the mandolin held in front of the the chest. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[dunbarhamlin]

I remember after long sessions the opposite pertaining - supporting my arm with the fiddle http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Inevitably the reality is somewhere in between.

The thumb does indeed need to be in a position to support the neck, as it must counter the pressure of the fingers.

Certainly the situation feels more difficult on mandolin, as we have no free reactive counter to gravity (the violinist's chin) but must rely on strap, right forearm (thus hampering freedom to pick) and base of left index (thus impairing fret hand mobility.) These limitations are, I think, least apparent on a heavy solidbody electric when we can rely almost entirely on strap and inertia - not helpful for an acoustic where we want as light as possible a body and a solid (though slender) neck!

[an uncalloused fingertip]

I thought I had the answer to this question by keeping my wrist straight, but it turned out not to be the cure-all I initially thought. This used to be a non-issue with me when I played primarily celtic fiddle tunes, but growing interested in chords I learned that the thumb above the neck does not give me the ability to have my fingers at a right angle to the fretboard.

I think its time for a strap. It mostly sit down when I play, yet I still think it would make a difference.

As for the diagram of Munier's hand, the instrument neck seems way, way too big to be a mandolin; maybe an octive mandolin. Or maybe his hands were child-sized.

I wouldn't use the violin as model for holding the mandolin. The violin (or even a viola) is much easier to hold and finger than the mandolin. And the violin is never supported by the hand (unless you are playing a baroque instrument). Smaller neck too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Gene http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[GTison]

Compton says use the side of the neck. The violin hold is not too unlike the mandolin. Thumb will be on the side mostly but flexibility is important. Remember the violin is supported by the chin and shoulder connection not the thumb. Jgarber's pic above is correct. As for a strap that's a must have whether you stand to play or not; it keeps it in the same position either way relative to the right hand and allows the right hand to move about up and down the strings to obtain different tones(distance from the bridge.) Dunbarhamlin is right on the money here.

[groveland]

More on this subject from others on the Cafe here. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=30705) I usually have my thumb behind the neck, sometimes peeking over the top just a bit. It may not be for everyone...
http://www.grovelandsoftwarelabs.com/images/thumbpos.jpg

[an uncalloused fingertip]

bowfinger:

I could not agree with you more. I only recently reentered the world of the mandolin, and I cannot believe that I could have forgotten the importance of having a strap. I bought a leather, buckled one last Friday, and boy does it make an enormous difference. Some purists might say that it is cheating. I'm just happy to have a free hand for fretting notes again. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Gene

[Yuletide]

Well, I can't resist weighing in on this one. #On a classical guitar, you want your thumb in the center of the back of the neck because that's where it really needs to be to play in any position (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.). #Also, if your thumb is in the center of the back of the neck, your thumb and your first finger are parallel when you play barres, and that gives you the cleanest, least stressful bar. #On a violin, you want your thumb on the side of the neck, but not sticking up high above the fingerboard. #The reason is, as just last night I heard my daughter's violin teacher tell her for the 18,324th time, because that hand position facilitates shifting and vibrato. #On a violin, you obviously have a much narrower neck than on a classical guitar, and you don't play bar chords, so the extreme of having your thumb in the middle of the back of the neck is unnecessary. #In fact, with a neck that narrow, it's darn near impossible to play that way comfortably unless you have tiny hands. #To me, mandolin is just the same as violin: you want your thumb on the side of the neck, but not sticking up so high that you have to rotate your thumb before you can shift to the higher positions and still comfortably play on the G string. #
On the other hand, it seems clear enough to me that if you play mostly in 1st position, as do many mandolin players and fiddlers, you can play nicely even with the neck sunk far into the crotch between your thumb and first finger. But playing that way is apparently a tough habit to break if you ever decide to change your style of playing, so perhaps it's best not to cultivate the habit in the first place, eh?

Yuletide Bob

[levin4now]

I remember watching the Ronnie McCoury video, where he plays along with his dad. Once I noticed how far his thumb sticks up over the neck, my wife and I couldn't help but think he ought to draw a little smiley face on it. Silly, I know, but he really sticks it out.

I too, have a Mel Bay book - my first and only mandolin instructional material for awhile, but I never tried to follow his thumb on the back technique.

[Yuletide]

Well OK, when I wrote my previous post, I didn't have a mandolin handy. This morning when I practiced I paid some attention to my thumb position. If I'm playing a piece that's mostly individual notes, I keep my thumb low on the side of the neck, just like on a violin. But when I'm playing something that's mostly chords, I play with my thumb in the middle of the back of the neck, just like when I played classical guitar. Makes it easier to play the bars, I guess, just like on guitar.

[ShaneJ]

OK, you're KILLING me by posting a topic with that title! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

...but I'll refrain.