copying breaks

[Bobbie Dier]

Sometimes I copy breaks to songs right off of the record,CD tape etc ,well maybe not note for note but kinda close. Does anyone think this is plagerizing? If your just playing it for a gig or some other noncommercial event or just for fun can you get in trouble? What do the artists usually say about it? Do they take it as a compliment or does it make them mad? Where is the line drawn on arrangements of traditional tunes? What about that old cliche break that now seems like it ain't the tune without it? Maybe these are dumb questions. Guess I'm about to find out.

[WJF]

Just my two bits which you should certainly take with a grain or less of salt ...

I think if you're starting out copying a solo can be a very good thing to do, especially if you take the time to try to understand how the notes in the solo relate to the chords in the song. You'd also want to be sensitive to all the nuances of rhythm, dynamics and phrasing in the solo too.

It's not something you'd want to do forever ... ultimately, you want to find your own musical voice so people starting out will want to copy *your* solos but until that happens I'd recommend transcribing solos as a valuable exercise.

[John S]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Legally, there's nothing wrong with it, I'm pretty sure. Copying solos is a good way to expand your repertoire of licks and ideas, and as you start creating your own style you will be assembling all the things you like best in other players' solos and discarding the rest.

Of course, when you go to record a CD or something, it feels pretty lame to copy somebody else's break, unless its Monroe http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif My band wants to record "Gospel Plow", and I'm really struggling to NOT copy Mike Compton's breaks (from the Little Grascals CD). But once you hear Mike play it, you can't comprehend it being played any other way! Mike just nails it.

[John Flynn]

I'm really struggling to NOT copy Mike Compton's breaks
Wow, I am impressed. I have no problem at all not sounding like Mike, even when I am trying to sound like Mike! LOL http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mrbook]

Our fiddler takes a really great break on the Hank Williams song "Mind Your Own Business." One late night while working at the computer, a put on a videotape I had made of Alan Jackson on Austin City Limits. They played the song, and five notes into the fiddle break I turned to the TV and started laughing - and couldn't wait to ask my friend how he came up with that great solo (I knew he also had a copy of the tape). I see nothing wrong with it, and it sounds completely different in the context of our acoustic band. He is a lawyer, though, and worries that he will be caught and sued. He's a fine fiddler, but I still tell him that after hearing him, no famous player will ever admit it was their break.

A lot of people say it's a great way to learn, and probably is - even though I've never been able to do it. I do like to steal a lick or two from someone and take it from there, however. You have to get some roots while finding your own voice.

[John S]

I'm really struggling to NOT copy Mike Compton's breaks
Wow, I am impressed. I have no problem at all not sounding like Mike, even when I am trying to sound like Mike! LOL #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Heheh! Don't take that the wrong way. I sound nothing like Mike either, even when I try http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I was just referring to the musical ideas in Mike's breaks. To me, they really make the song, so coming up with my own unique (yet crappy) breaks to that particular song is not easy. I keep going back to what Mike is doing.

[Bobbie Dier]

Thanks for the input guys.
WJF, It is really hard to come up with good unique breaks(for me anyway). What is on the tapes, CDs always sound better than what I could ever come up with.I always feel like my breaks always sound so simpleton and I just about have to get ideas from somewhere. Copying seems like the best or only thing to do right now.

John S Chicago, I know the break you are talking about by Compton. It would be hard not to do that break . It is just so right for that song. He is great. (my favorite)

mrbook, His(your buddy's) version probably sounds better anyway it being acoustic. #
ima

[duuuude]

Our fiddler takes a really great break on the Hank Williams song "Mind Your Own Business."
Uh oh, wonder if that's the same fiddle break I stole from the same tune covered by Tom Ball & Kenny Sultan? Be hilarious to find out it's the most-stolen break or something!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Pete Martin]

As far as I know, solos from an instrument are not copyrightable (is that a word???) where as compositions are.

Every great player has learned a lot of stuff from recording note for note.

[WJF]

Thanks for the input guys.
WJF, It is really hard to come up with good unique breaks(for me anyway). What is on the tapes, CDs always sound better than what I could ever come up with.I always feel like my breaks always sound so simpleton and I just about have to get ideas from somewhere. Copying seems like the best or only thing to do right now.
I understand what you're saying completely ... we've all gone through or continue to go through that stage at some point. It's precisely why I suggested to you that copying or transcribing a break might actually be a very good thing for you to do initially. In doing so, you'll start to develop a "repertoire" of licks that you can start to incorporate into your own solos.

If you're going to go through the effort of copying a solo though, you should *really* put in some extra time in trying to understand why the soloist chose the notes, rhythmic components and tone(s)that they did ... For ecxample, how did what they played relate to the chords? Did they make use of arpeggios? chromatic phrases? Blues scales? What other type(s) of scales did they use? Where were the rhythmic accents? Does it sound like they played certain notes closer to the bridge or farther up? Try to be aware of it all ... over time that will greatly improve your understanding of music and equip you to make up interesting stuff on your own.

[mrbook]

It is a great break my friend stole for "Mind Your Own Business," so good everyone should steal it. I was surprised when he came up with it, because coming from a 30 year classical background (before our first gig with him, he asked if we were going to have a dress rehearsal - but he has loosened up considerably these last few years) he has great tone, timing, and technique, but is not much on improvising. He also learns fiddle tunes in what I call a linear fashion, memorized from beginning to end - if he normally plays six variations, don't ask him to just do a couple, because he can't stop until it's over. I gave him a lot of music to listen to and steal from, and it works out just fine.

Sometimes it's good to play a known break (think of Folsom Prison Blues) because the song doesn't sound right without it. I like to start with a bit of the known break and end up with something of my own. I also don't mind stealing a break and putting it in a different song - my mandolin break on Mind Your Own Business often comes right out of the Bluegrass Stomp.

[jeffshuniak]

igor stravinsky "... great musicians steal"

[duuuude]

- my mandolin break on Mind Your Own Business often comes right out of the Bluegrass Stomp.
Wow, now I'm hearin' the Twilight Zone music, I use the break I stole from Mind Your Own Business when I'm playing Bluegrass Stomp! Too cool.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Flowerpot]

Have you ever listened to the "Bluegrass Album Band" stuff (Rice, Crowe, Hicks, Lawson, et al) and compared it to the originals by Flatt & Scruggs and Monroe? Especially on the banjo and fiddle breaks, they are virtually note-for-note copies of what was done decades ago. Freaked me out the first time I realized it (J.D.... Bobby... hey, you're cheatin'!).

I think musical "quotes" are fine, as long as they add to your solo vocabulary rather than define it. I like studying the breaks of players I'd like to sound like, and by learning them, I figure out part of what makes them sound the way they do.

[AlanN]

Someone once said the path to musical achievement is:

imitate, emulate, innovate.

I think they left out vegetate http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Bobbie Dier]

AlanN,
So far for me vegetate goes between emulate and innovate.
ima

[mrbook]

I've never been good at copying someone else, so now when I can sometimes do it (after 30 years) it is kind of fun - as long as I don't get carried away with it.

On a related topic - in a bluegrass book I read several years ago, performers were asked if they played the same breaks in shows as on their records. Most, I believe, said they did, because people expected to hear the song that way. One performer (not sure who, and don't want to misquote anyone) mentioned his displeasure at "driving 150 to watch how someone played a song, and then not seeing it." I've played some songs the same way for years, and on others I never know what will happen day to day.

[jmcgann]

It is really important when learning a style of music to get INTO it- and learning other's solos is invaluable. I still do it and have done so all my life. In spite of that, i seem to have developed a somewhat original voice- probably because I could never get Sam's solos to sound just like him, even if I got all the notes- or Grisman, or Andy Statman, or anyone!

Another good parallel path is to try composing your own breaks- worked out stuff-on tunes. You practice 'em and get 'em good, get sick of 'em, write another, etc. and before you know it you can mix and match- and you are improvising.

Do try this at home! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kvk]

Didn't someone famous once say something to the effect of "learn everyone else's licks and then never play them"?

[Tom C]

I always try to work out the basic melody first. ..Add some double stops ...try to fit more notes in where it hangs (say where the first half of the "A" part may end on the 5th). Then listen to recordings and hear what others are playing for a break and incorporate some of that stuff. I do not do that first else I get 1 track minded. It's a lot of work and this is where I need to improve.