Do I have a 'Liuto Cantabile'?

[brucez]

Hi,

A few years ago I acquired a very old 5 course cittern that was made in Milan. I have pictures and a description at www.trovatore-duo.com/liuto/ if you want to see it. There's a small picture here.

I think it's a liuto cantabile because it's like an octave mandolin with a low CC string. But maybe one of you knows more.

I'd probably sell it if it's worth a lot, or if someone really really wants it, but since the finish is a little funky I'll probably just keep it since it's kind of fun to play.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bruce Zweig

[Martin Jonas]

Funky instrument, especially the side-facing soundholes! #Yes, I do believe that's a liuto cantabile, although it doesn't look much like the Calace or Embergher versions of the same instrument, which are bowlbacks. #I strongly suspect that the bridge and the tailpiece are replacements, and not very good ones. #Monzino was a highly regarded maker from Milan, so this should be a very decent instrument. Value is (as always for old Italian instruments) very difficult: the only instruments consistently going for big(-ish) money are the three big names Vinaccia, Calace and Embergher. Everything else is luck of the draw.

I'd love to have a liuto like this, but being on the wrong side of the Atlantic I suspect the practicalities will be too difficult to work out.

Martin

[Eugene]

I have no idea what to call it...but liuto cantabile seems as good a moniker as any. Bizarre, and enjoy.

[Jim Garber]

That sure is an unsual one with the side soundholes and nothing in the front. Thos on second look, does it have sound holes under the bridge? Unusual. It reminds me of the Loar ViVitones.

Monzino seems to have made a wide variety of styles of mandolin. I have many photos in my files of bowlbacks, some in the Roman style, some like Demeglios and some fairly straightforward Neapolitan style. I also have examples of flatback octave mandolin/mandola and a mandolone (mandobass) that Ralf Leenan sold on eBay some time ago. I have a feeling that at some point Monzino may have had a number of different makers working in the shop or else liked to copy whatever the customers wanted.

This one esp has an unusually rectangular peghead. BTW, Bruce, what is the scale length of this one. Also, if you were willing to share, I would love to hear the story of how you came to acquire this.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Jim: if I interpret Bruce's description correctly, it's 24" scale length. #Monzino also made nice Brescian/Milanese mandolins.

I wonder whether the neck may be a replacement: it seems to have a truss rod with a plastic cover, which doesn't sound very Monzino to me. Maybe that's the explanation for the apparent traces of a previous fretboard on the soundboard. If so, it may not even have started out life as a five-course instrument, but rather as a mandocello.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I was just about to comment on that truss rod. I would agree with you, Martin that it may have been renecked. The tailpiece, as far as I can determine, looks like a German-made one meant for 12-string instruments. The tuners were also cobbled together possible from a 12 string instrument or two identical sets of guitar tuners that were cut. The headstock looks almost amateurish and I would say, not made by Monzino and definitely not made when the rest of the instrument was made.

I have attached a side view of a Monzino octave mandolin so you can see the similarities to Bruce's instrument esp in that decorative line cut in the side and the shape of the body. The seller said that it had a 29 inch scale. You can see the similarities, tho the front has a standard oval hole. This one dates from around 1900.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is a front view of the same instrument.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Jim: are you sure that other Monzino is an octave mandolin and not a mandocello? 29 inches is terribly long for an OM; most old Italian mandolas (for octave tuning) are well under 20 inches.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I think it was labelled as such but is really a mandocello.

Jim

[Eugene]

Wow, more groovy stuff I missed today. I think Bob owns a Monzino Neapolitan mandolin with a scratchplate that looks suspiciously Lombardian too. He was an odd duck, eh?

[Paul Hostetter]

The tailpiece, as far as I can determine, looks like a German-made one meant for 12-string instruments.

It was made in the US, I'm fairly certain by Elton, who made them for Lyon and Healy, Oscar Schmidt and National, among others. These tailpieces were found on the 12-strings we associate with Lead Belly. L&H had an 11-string variant made for their unusual guitars, etc. They were a popular aftermarket item which folks could use on flattop guitars that had become unplayable.

http://208.12.100.143/~813/shubin12e_sm.jpg

Liuto cantabile is a nice term. The safe term I hear many people in Europe use for instruments like the ones above is mandole, which is loose enough to encompass CGDA instruments tuuned like the American mandola, the Berber mandoles, on up to what we call octave mandolins and so on.

http://www.lutherie.net/bassi.e.mandole.jpg

29" is astoundingly long for any of these instruments; perhaps the person describing it was measuring from nut to tailpiece, not the true scale?

[Eugene]

Liuto cantabile or liuto moderno is a rather specific term for a 5-course mando-cello/mandoloncello intended to be tuned with an added high e': C-G-d-a-e'. Calace really pushed them and claims to have invented the thing, but there are a number of instruments by many makers of that period (esp. Vinaccias and Embergher). Thanks to Calace, there is a fair body of dedicated virtuoso repertoire. 29" does seem a few too long.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

It looks like perhaps someone altered that instrument.
1) the tuning machines on the end don't look original to the head stock
2) the headstock looks like it was extended to accept another course of strings. I'll bet it barely fits in the case (it looks that way, anyway)
3) the tailpiece looks like it was made not for a 12 string, but for a harp guitar. Or maybe a harp-something. It has hooks for 4 pairs set up next to hooks for 4 singles

Interesting instrument though, I wonder how it sounds.

Best,
Daniel

[Martin Jonas]

29" does seem a few too long.
Bruce's five-course instrument is only 24", which is about right. 29" was the other Monzino posted by Jim, but that one was a four-course instrument anyway.

Martin

[Eugene]

indeed.

[Martin Jonas]

I've just noticed that Bruce has put this instrument on Ebay <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-course-Cittern-Mandocello-from-early-1900s-Italy_W0QQitemZ7384826435QQcategoryZ623QQssPa

geNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a>. #As I write, there's less than two hours to go, the reserve is not yet reached at $660.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I don't know if Bruce reads this board...

I just received both of Sheri Mignano Crawford's books. In Mandolins, Like Salami there are three photos of the Andrini Brothers with Frank playing what is called a liuto cantabile. It it difficult to see in the photos but it looks to me that it is a model that resembles Bruce's at least in shape and the fact that (I think) it has no soundholes on the top. The neck and peghead do look different.

Is it at all possible that this is the same instrument?

You can see one of the photos here (from Gregg Miner's site):
http://www.harpguitars.net/iconography/3-crawford.jpg

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I'm looking at the photos in Sheri's book right now, and I think from the other two photos that it looks very much like the same instrument as Bruce's. The headstock does look different, but so subtly different that it looks as if Bruce's might be an imitation of the broken original: the headstock outline is almost the same, just a little bit more elegantly shaped in the original and without the truss rod cover. The bridge is definitely not the same either. Still, what are the chances of having two of these Monzino liutos in San Francisco? The Andrini brothers were based in Livorno and Marseille and Sparks says that Monzino instruments were particularly popular in France.

Martin

[Daymando]

Wow - I've never actually seen a photo (or in person) of someone actually holding a harp-guitar in playing position, and standing at that -- granted, it's posed, but still.... (The ones I've seen have been in more formal shots, with instruments to the side/down-front.) Thanks for sharing that neat photo, Jim.

-Allen.

[Jim Garber]

Actually that photo was from Sheri and was posted on Gregg Miner's amazing harp-guitar site at Harpguitars.net (http://www.harpguitars.net/iconography/iconography.htm). You can see plenty more (including a couple of mine) at that link.

Jim

[Embergher]

I think it was labelled as such but is really a mandocello.

Jim
My reply is a little late, but I just found this thread...

I just wanted to confirm that this Monzino is not an octave mandolin nor a mandocello, it's a mandobass! (whatever is printed on the label doesn't matter, it is a standard printed label, but this is not a standard instrument)
29" is too large for a mandocello scale.
A normal mandocello scale is about 23 5/8", but certainly not 29". (Of course there are also much larger mandobasses, often with single strings)