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Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:26pm
Due to lack of enthusiasm, I guess we lost this thread. In an attempt to resurrect it, I would call all the members of the order of the bowl to repost your images.

Here are a few of my 1902 Martin style 6, one day to be playable.

Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:28pm
Here ia a closeup of the bridge and tailpiece cover.

Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:29pm
Here is a closeup of the pickguard.

Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:30pm
Closeup of the headstock.

Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:31pm
One more, of the gear cover plate, showing the engraving.

Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:34pm
Here is another interesting one -- at least to me. Not sure of the maker but it is pretty ornate for an American bowlback.

Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:35pm
And a closeup of the pickguard.

Jim Garber
Mar-29-2004, 1:37pm
Another mystery mandolin. This I call a boatback, sort of a hybrid between a flatback and a bowlback. Some details look similar to some Larson instruments.

MANDOLINMYSTER
Mar-29-2004, 3:38pm
Beautiful instruments Jim, I really like the pickguard inlay on the no name one.

jeffshuniak
Mar-30-2004, 8:08am
gee, I hope I'm not being to redundant..having just posted these pics elswhere...but a bowl back pic series wouldnt be complete without the greek type...

jeffshuniak
Mar-30-2004, 8:10am
no new closeups still.

jeffshuniak
Mar-30-2004, 8:19am
little cracks

jeffshuniak
Mar-30-2004, 8:20am
james, those are really nice, I really love the inlay of the woman with harp, nice

one day when I can afford it, I want one with gods, old gods inlaid on the pickguard. maybe apollo or dionysus in some scene.

John Uhrig
Mar-31-2004, 11:58am
Repeating mine.
Old no-name, but plays and sounds very nice

Jim Garber
Mar-31-2004, 12:27pm
mandonucs:
That looks very similar to American Conservatory mandolins (made by Lyon &Healy) I have seen esp in the pickguard shape and the headstock.

Jim

ejkauf99
Apr-01-2004, 9:12am
This is a 1924 Marca Aquila poject that was purchased off Ebay. When I got it, the neck had a severe bow, and all the braces were either cracked or loose. The back came off to repair or replace what was needed, and a new fingerboard was made to help straighten the neck. I was going to replace the headstock overlay to get rid of the rhinestones, and then do a complete
refinish, but decided against it at this time. Don't let first impressions fool you. She sounds loud, and crisp, and has great action.

Jim Garber
Apr-01-2004, 9:20am
Is this a bowlback? What is the wood on the back like?

Also, is this made by the Favilla (http://hometown.aol.com/bigtom5/myhomepage/index.html) family company?

Jim

ejkauf99
Apr-01-2004, 9:31am
Hey Jim: Early riser? No it is a flat back, and like Most of the Favilla
instruments it is made of mahogany. They seem to have favored making well built
instrument with plain appointments that most people could actually afford. I have a small
collection of Favilla instruments. Mainly because I used to like to and talk with Big Tom
at the Favilla music store before they closed. It was always very interesting to hear about the companys
history. Lest Everybody thinks That is my only mando, here is a pic of my pride and joy. She is a Lyon Healy Model C #443

Alekos
Apr-01-2004, 1:20pm
Once again; A. Mirone - Catania

Alekos
Apr-01-2004, 1:22pm
Here is my first - Alfonso Moretti, Neapoli ..

Jim Garber
Apr-01-2004, 3:19pm
Here is frontal of my Pandini, built last year.

Jim Garber
Apr-01-2004, 3:21pm
Here is the bowl-side view

Jim Garber
Apr-01-2004, 4:45pm
And my latest acquisition... the new bowlback I just got today...

Happy April Fool's Day.

grsnovi
Apr-01-2004, 8:42pm
The pictures of my Vega are still here:

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=12936 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=12936)

Jim Garber
Apr-12-2004, 11:11am
To makre sure that this thread satys alive...

here is my 1896 mandolino Lombardo or Milanese mandolin by Serafino Casini.

Jim

Jim Garber
Apr-12-2004, 11:13am
More details: scalloped fretboard and 6 gut strings. the bowl is shallower than a Neapolitan.

here is a back view.

Jim

Bob DeVellis
Apr-12-2004, 12:42pm
Okay- keeping it alive, a reprise of the Style 5 (poetry unintended)

pklima
Apr-13-2004, 6:10pm
Here's my 1921 Martin style 6a with extra-plain top trim. A distributor had some of these made, numbering somewhere in the lower double digits... I don't remember the details.

pklima
Apr-13-2004, 6:12pm
My 6a is plain on top, but it has the scalloped ribs of the style 6. With ivory spacers, too.

pklima
Apr-13-2004, 6:14pm
Here's the whole thing from the front... not the best photo, I'm afraid.

Eugene
Apr-13-2004, 6:40pm
You are in a position to receive my envy, Sr. Klima!

Jim Garber
Apr-13-2004, 7:03pm
I especially like the bear rug "baby" shots of our non-hockey player's 6a. Reminds me of Victor's thread of his new baby.

There is something exquisite of the plainness of this instrument. I can almost hear the sweetness of its sound.

Jim

MANDOLINMYSTER
Apr-13-2004, 8:52pm
Sorry.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

pklima
Apr-13-2004, 10:08pm
Thanks, guys. Though for the record that's a sheepskin. It certainly is a lovely-sounding mando, though.

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:28pm
A couple of my ex-es. Here's one now in the (I hope and expect) loving custody of Cafe-er dvatchka. It's a ca. 1900 Brandt style 2.

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:29pm
21-rib bowl:

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:33pm
Every Brandt I've seen except two had a tastfully executed scroll (usually in natural maple, not lacquered black). #One exception was a dated, late-19th-c. example with a typical peghead, and the other featured a blocky and graceless partial scroll with a label that read "style 1."

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:40pm
This old guy is a 1915 Martin style 2. When I bought it, it had the most offensive non-original, diagonal-fret, undecorated fingerboard imagineable. Dan Larson (http://www.daniellarson.com/) made the extended re-replacement. It went on eBay for $500 (a bargain compared to a style 0 ukulele!), almost $100 less than it cost me to obtain and restore (Hmmph!).

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:41pm
26-rib bowl:

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:42pm
Engraved tuning plates and ivoroid buttons:

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:54pm
Here's a detail of the 29-fret fingerboard (sans 28):

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 2:55pm
Care to add one more "ex," Jeff?

Jim Garber
Apr-16-2004, 3:30pm
When I bought it, it had the most offensive non-original, diagonal-fret, undecorated fingerboard imagineable.
Eugene:
What exactly do you mean by a diagonal fret fingerboard?

Jim

Eugene
Apr-16-2004, 3:37pm
Exactly what it implies! Some of the frets weren't quite parallel with their neighbors.

Jim Garber
Apr-16-2004, 3:45pm
Ah, reptile dentistry-style of luthiery. I thought you meant one of those fan-fret fingerboards.

Jim

Jim Garber
Apr-16-2004, 9:40pm
Here's my Vega Style 3. Still have to get it and a few others. "Get thee to a lutherie..."

Jim Garber
Apr-16-2004, 9:41pm
And the back of the Vega Style 3

vkioulaphides
Apr-19-2004, 8:54am
What exactly are the "issues pending" with this instrument, Jim? It, ehm... looks healthy.

I wish you the best of luck with this, and to the instrument, well, a speedy recovery to old glory! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jim Garber
Apr-29-2004, 10:14am
I have this nice little catalog from Luigi Ricca (http://www.paperclipdesign.com/ricca/), a maker in New York at the turn of the last century. This is a pdf file of the entire catalog.

Mike Holmes (http://www.mugwumps.com) says that his factory had upwards of 200 employees at one time. He probably made many instruments on contract.

Jim

Eugene
May-11-2004, 12:51pm
Inspired by Hubert's recent acquisition and the subsequent chatter, I decided to post this old warhorse once more. This is a 1908 one-of-a-kind Martin. It is backed in 42 fluted ribs of Brazilian rosewood but, unlike Peter's 6a, it uses maple spacers.

Eugene
May-11-2004, 12:53pm
The engraved tuner plates.

Eugene
May-11-2004, 12:55pm
The original cover plate of the tailpiece was missing. I had a period plate of steel buffed, engraved based upon elements in the tuners, and nickel plated by a gentleman named Andy Raftis.

pklima
May-11-2004, 9:38pm
Just for comparison, here's my 6a's tailpiece cover from a photo of the whole instrument - I removed the color and raised the contrast to make the engraving more visible. The engraving's certainly not as delicate as on Eugene's new tailpiece, but by 1921 it wasn't what it had been in 1904, either.

Eugene
May-12-2004, 9:29am
How odd. I've never seen that pattern. I wonder if it's something they only used on the spartan-but-still-upper-class 6a or if it might be a replacement itself.

pklima
May-12-2004, 7:07pm
Hmmm... it might be a replacement - those things get lost often and are often replaced by whatever happens to be on a less expensive instrument nearby. The engraving's consistent with some of the elements on my 6a's tuner cover plates, though.

pklima
May-12-2004, 7:11pm
This detail shows the similar zigzag lines and shrublike bits. Apologies for the poor quality of the photo.

Eugene
May-13-2004, 8:25am
The engraving on the tuner plates of your 1921 style 6a is like that on the 1915 style 2 I sold. Unfortunately, I didn't have the original coverplate for the tailpiece (the one I had used the pattern typical to Martin's style B). However, I have seen the tailpiece pattern to usually accompany those tuners. I seem to remember it being slightly different than your tailpiece, maybe a little more like the arcs around the points on the tuners. Of course, my memory may simply be flawed here as it is in most things...or this could simply be a different pattern that Martin embraced at a later date.

Jim Garber
May-29-2004, 10:58am
Here's a few of my recently acquired Waldo bowlback. These are pretty unique since they have f-holes insteaqd of the usual round or oval sound holes. bacing is different: sort of an inverted V, getting wider down at the bottom. Hard to see in there. The sound is nice with ultralights, very mellow and less trebly than some bowlbacks.

Condition includes the usual warped top around the f-holes. there seems to be some sort of reinforcement bracing on the edge of the holes but it didn;t do much good.

A few other pics to follow.

Jim Garber
May-29-2004, 10:59am
Here's the back. I am not too sure what wood it is, sort of birdseye maple stained... or something else.

Jim

Jim Garber
May-29-2004, 11:06am
Here's the butt end with an interesting configuration.

Jim

pklima
May-30-2004, 8:06pm
Interesting... I guess the soundholes aren't the only unusual thing about Waldos. I like these kinds of oddities, especially if they're actually functional.

Jim Garber
Jun-01-2004, 8:21pm
Nothing too outstanding here. Just an American Conservatory Style #10 mandola.

Jim

Jim Garber
Jun-01-2004, 8:26pm
The interesting thing is that the back is made of alternating rosewood and mahogany ribs. I didn't even realize that until I saw the 1912 catalog page.

Jim

vkioulaphides
Jun-02-2004, 9:37am
Truly extraordinary, considering the, ehm... subtle visual difference of the two woods, especially after the uniform French-polish; a first for me, the usual alternation being in the "clown's tights" pattern, maple-mahogany or something of that sort.

So, how does the 'dola actually sound? Somewhere in the remote future, perhaps a lower-than-mandolin bowlback instrument is in store for me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jim Garber
Jun-02-2004, 9:45am
I imagine that the dual wood choice for the back was intentional for the mandola. It sounds wonderful. Rich on the low end and sweet on the upper. I may need to lower the bridge a touch.

BTW the scale length is 16.5 inches (420mm).

Jim

Jim Garber
Jul-08-2004, 8:48am
To keep this thread alive... here is my Luigi Ricca (still) prior to restoration. I actually have the parts and it only needs a bridge. Someday soon...

BTW I have posted a pdf file of an 1890s Ricca catalog (http://www.paperclipdesign.com/ricca/).

Jim

Jim Garber
Jul-08-2004, 8:49am
Here is a closeup of the peghead of the Ricca with that nice inlay.

Jim

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 9:08am
This is mighty tasty. I have liked every Ricca I have ever seen. I'd love to see this one in person. Who is doing the bridge for you, Jim?

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 9:11am
Here is my new mandolino by Luciano Faria (http://www.lucianofaria.com/) after Smorsone (1736) to have just arrived yesterday afternoon.

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 9:13am
...And the back.

Jim Garber
Jul-11-2004, 9:50am
This is mighty tasty. #I have liked every Ricca I have ever seen. #I'd love to see this one in person. #Who is doing the bridge for you, Jim?
I have been consulting with various friends in the know and on this board and may attempt to do one of my own. I would think that it might be the two piece with the bone insert or may just adapt a std ebony bridge to check out the neck angle etc then attempt a better one.

On the third hand, I might just commission a competent someone to make one for me.

Jim

Jim Garber
Jul-11-2004, 9:52am
That Smorsone clone is gorgeous. How does it sound? I can't recall, Eugene if you have been playing mandolino and have others.

Congratulations!

Jim

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 3:14pm
Thank you, Jim. #It sounds pretty good to me, but I'm not fond of the persistent klang of nylon on such stuff. #So strung, this sounds almost quietly harp-like to me throughout the lower four courses. #I'm eager to hear it with gut, possibly under slightly higher tension; the strings don't feel very resistant at pitch.

Nope, this is my first instrument in this tuning. #In the wee bit of time I've spent with it so far, I've only managed to digest the initial tutti of Vivaldi's concerto in C.

Alekos
Jul-17-2004, 3:34am
Here is my A.Mirone after 2nd renovation (compare it with the photo on the 1st site of this topic) ..

jasona
Jul-17-2004, 11:44am
Looks great!

Eugene
Jul-28-2004, 8:22pm
Carrying on in an early-kin vein, most people here who would care have seen this a dozen times before, but just in case...

Here is a ca. 1835 anonymous piece to predate geared tuners and metal tailpieces. Alex Timmerman attributes this to the shop of Clement Eulry, France and that attribution seems as likely as any.

Eugene
Jul-28-2004, 8:25pm
It is backed in alternating maple and rosewood ribs.

Eugene
Jul-28-2004, 8:26pm
The clasp features some very simple, elegant scroll work.

Jim Garber
Jul-28-2004, 8:29pm
Eugene:
I love the simplicity and elegance of the design. Give me that any day over overdone pearl etc.

Have you strung that with Gamut gut strings? Would one play it with a pick or fingers?

Jim

Eugene
Jul-28-2004, 8:29pm
The strings fix to the tail block via 4 ivory hitch pins, one per course.

Eugene
Jul-28-2004, 8:34pm
Greetings Jim,
This breed was played with a quill. #I've been using a sliver of celluloid I shaped to emulate quill (you can see it tucked under the strings in the first image), but I'll try working feathers into something useful again in the near future thanks to some fine, detailed instruction posted by Alex. #Yes, I use Gamut strings, but in this case they are silver-wound silk for the g (and plain wire on the octave g'), twisted brass wire for d', fine plain wire for a', and gut for e". #Gut is rather short-lived under the quill, so I tend to use ca. 0.5 mm nylon for e" unless I am playing out. #The a' strings are really fragile, so I keep a stash of fine brass harpsichord wire that I buy from Ben Bechtel, a local harpsichord builder.

John Bertotti
Aug-02-2004, 9:18pm
My Vega . Sounds great to me and the monkey loves it. Oddly enogh the dog groans when I play but my cats come and listen. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim Garber
Aug-05-2004, 8:38am
Here's an odd one. I have never seen one in person but it comes from a 1889-90 Lyon & Healy catalog. I love the sound holes.

Jim

Jim Garber
Aug-05-2004, 8:39am
Here's a description of this model 1214. I like the fact that you get 50 free lessons with it.

Jim

Lowk
Aug-05-2004, 5:52pm
I thought I'd just make all you guys with lovely bowlbacks feel even better about it by posting a pic of my plain old (slightly beaten up) mandolin. It's a czechoslovakian mandolin from a company called Lignatone which I expect has been old of buisiness for a while. There is something quite satisfying about owning a mandolin from a company that is no longer in existance, based in a country that is no longer in existance.

Jim Garber
Aug-05-2004, 8:43pm
I thought I'd just make all you guys with lovely bowlbacks feel even better about it by posting a pic of my plain old (slightly beaten up) mandolin. It's a czechoslovakian #mandolin from a company called Lignatone which I expect has been old of buisiness for a while. There is something quite satisfying about owning a mandolin from a company that is no longer in existance, based in a country that is no longer in existance.
Well, I own quite a few mandolins from companies that are out of business, but none from countries that no longer exist.

I am also an admirer of the good sounding, good playing utilitarian, inexpesnsive mandolin.

Thanks for posting...

Jim

onthefiddle
Aug-05-2004, 11:31pm
I was just browsing through this thread, when I was quite startled to see Eugene's mandolin (ca. 1835, attributed to Clement Eulry), as I have a very similair instrument myself!
I've yet to actually take physical possesion of it, as it's in the UK, while I'm in Canada for another six weeks (I've been working over here for most of the last year). It was an eBay buy that I had sent to my parents address.
Mine was converted to machine tuners at some point (presumably in the nineteenth century), but I plan to convert it back again. It also has some open seams on the back, but is crack free - so not too much work is required.
I'm very curious to see if the fingerboard is original, or whether it would have had a fingerboard flush with the soundboard. Am I correct in assuming that the fingerboard is original on your instrument Eugene?
Anyway, here are some pictures that were taken by my father:

onthefiddle
Aug-05-2004, 11:37pm
Here is the back. While it shares the alternating rosewood/maple ribs of Eugene's mandolin, it doesn't have the more decorative apron rib:

onthefiddle
Aug-05-2004, 11:45pm
This is a close-up of the peg head. If you look carefully you can see where the peg holes were bushed before the tuners were fitted:

onthefiddle
Aug-05-2004, 11:53pm
The final picture is from the auction, showing the mandolin in its (original?) case.
Unfortunately this instrument is also apparently anonymous - unlabeled or marked in any way.
My limited research had led me to the conclusion that it might be French, but no further.
If anyone could shed any more light as to its origins I would be extremely interested!
Also - are the pegs on your instrument original Eugene? I would very much like to see a close-up of one, as I could then have some copies made. Measurements would also be very useful in this respect, particularly of the head (knob?) and the average distance from the collars to the instruments peghead.
Thanks!

Jim Garber
Aug-06-2004, 8:08am
Interesting Eulry (attributed) mandolin. One question I have for those who know these things: is it possible that those tuners are original or that the original tuners were mechanical rather than violin-type? I know that it is possible that the holes were plugged and a new peghead overlay could have been created. I would suppose that by examining the instrument you could determine if the larger holes required for the pegs were plugged and redrilled.

But remember: this is the same period as the earliest Martin guitars, many of which had geared tuners.

Upon second examination, it does look like there is evidence of the earlier pegs on that close-up of the peghead. I left my other comments above to stimulate discussion about when geared tuners appeared on early Neapolitan mandolins.

In any case, it looks like those tuners are quite old in themselves, tho maybe not quite as old as the mandolin.

BTW I found a listing in Henley's for Eulry. He is better known for his violin bows:

EULRY, CLEMENT
Worked in Mirecourt, 1820-1865. Eight-stringed (in four pairs) mandolines with backs inlaid with different woods. Produced many admirable bows in the style of Nicholas Maire (for whom he worked). Stamped "Eulry." Also, s0olid-looking violins, not especially well varnished.

Jim

onthefiddle
Aug-06-2004, 8:50am
Yes, obviously from here I can't say for certain that these tuners aren't simply replacements for an older set.
The main thing that is leading me to this conclusion is the spacing of the bushings - very wide for machine tuners, but typical for pegs mounted through a peghead. The wide spacing would be to provide fingerspace between the pegs.
When I finally get my hands on this I'll take off the tuners and measure the bushings from both sides. If the holes on the back of the peghead were larger then it almost certainly had pegs (I've yet to see tuners with a tapered shaft). If the holes are the same size it will still be inconclusive of course, as the tapered pegholes could have been simply drilled out and filled with round dowel, instead of properly bushed.
As far as I'm aware machine tuners first appeared in England in the eighteenth century on English Guitars (actually a type of Cittern). The English Guitar spread to Portugal where it developed into the Portugese Bandurria, modern examples of the latter still often sport one of the original styles of machine tuners - with the strings attaching to hooks and adjusted with a screw mechanism from above. If I remember rightly there were other styles developed, including some more closely resembling the more normal modern forms of machine tuners. I'm having to take all this from memory, as I don't have any reference materials regarding English Guitars here.
With respect to the Eulry attribution, I don't believe that my instrument is by the same maker as Eugene's. There are lots of stylistic differences, as well as the obvious similarities. For example the shape of the back of the peghead as it meets the neck. Mine more closely resembles my Vega, whereas Eugene's looks to resemble the joint used on Martins - both later American manufacturers of course, but they help me illustrate my point.
Of course mine may be an Eulry - what is more certain is that both our instruments came from about the same period, and possibly from the same region.
Thanks for your research Jim, especially the quote from Henley - both instruments would certainly seem to match the description there.

Eugene
Aug-06-2004, 3:12pm
Man, I have a bit of reply to offer, but Mrs. Eugene is demanding I leave the office and come home. I'll write from there over the weekend.

onthefiddle
Aug-06-2004, 11:32pm
Thanks Eugene - I look forward to it!
Jim - one thing occurs to me regarding geared tuners - the change was probably driven by the change in strings - steel strings really require a fine tuning mechanism. The same change led to the introduction of fine tuners on violin tailpieces, and the invention of geared tuners was probably string driven in the case of the English Guitar. Anyway, if we continue this topic it should be in a new thread in the "Classical, Medieval/Renaissance" section.
Jon

Eugene
Aug-07-2004, 6:49pm
Welcome, Lowk. Lignatone is still around. Their name is now Strunal (http://www.strunal.com/).

Eugene
Aug-07-2004, 7:21pm
I think you are spot on regarding the evolution of geared tuners and the English guitar, Jon. #While geared tuners started appearing on true guitars ca. 1820 or so, it took a while before they were applied to mandolins. #According to Sparks, the first mandolins with geared tuners and elevated fingerboards were ca. 1835 pieces by Pasquale Vinaccia. #It took a while to spread elsewhere.

Regarding our similar instruments, Jon, the fingerboard has been off mine for some work. #There is no evidence of a once-functional flush fingerboard underneath. #Mine also sports very old-fashioned bar frets of brass. #I believe the fingerboard of mine to be original.

However, the tuning pegs are not original. #Mine has a mismatched assemblage of violin pegs. #Still, I believe mine was not built for geared machines and did originally carry simple pegs, but probably with finer heads than the violin pegs it now sports.

If not from the Eulry shop, I am certain both yours and mine are from mid 19th c. Mirecourt, France. #Mine is probably a bit earlier than yours (maybe by a decade or so). #The crests of the head of mine are ornamented with rather old-fashioned ivory knobs (actually longish pins set into the headstock with knob-like heads protruding). #Is there any evidence yours once was as well, Jon? #The clasp of mine also extends around the neck joint and features some old-fashioned scroll work. #I'm guessing the tailpiece on yours was also a later addition, along with the tuners. #Is there evidence of holes for hitch pins beneath the tailpiece?

Mine is exactly identical in construction to a piece being offered by Sinier de Ridder (http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html) (his is in much better shape). #If his pegs are not original, they are probably very like the originals.
http://sinierderidder.free.fr/images/mandolines/a4.jpg
Note the odd pseudo-heel at the neck-body joint. #It perfectly stops the hand at the 4th position.
http://sinierderidder.free.fr/images/mandolines/a5.jpg
These images are from de Ridder's shop.

Eugene
Aug-07-2004, 7:30pm
PS: Of his, de Ridder says:

Romantic mandolin, copy of a neapolitan mandolin,
anonymous, Mirecourt (France) circa 1850.

Spruce table, body with alternative ribs of mapple and rosewood, string length: 33.5 cm. During the 19th century, because an important [t]ask, the workshops of Mirecourt made with a great craftsmanship, many instruments, guitars, mandolins, violins, etc...as copy of old masters, or famous schools.

onthefiddle
Aug-08-2004, 1:28pm
Thanks for your reply Eugene, and for the pictures of Sinier de Ridder's mandolin. I will get in touch with him and ask him if he could spare the time to take some measurements of the pegs.
If you like, I could have two sets made up. I know a lute maker in the UK who makes very nice pegs to order, and whose prices are very reasonable. He does have a waiting list, I ordered a set of pegs from him before which took several months to arrive, but were well worth the wait. Also, I won't be able to draw the peg design for him until the end of September - so you may not see them until January!
If you're interested then it would be useful if you could take a few measuements from your instrument and email them to me. I need the size of the hole on the back of the pegbox for your thickest peg, the thickness of the shaft of the peg at the end and just beside the collar, and the length of the shaft from the collar to the tip. This way I can hopefully avoid the need for bushings on your instrument. If the peg is extremely thick then a bushing may be a good idea though - as tuning will be unneccesarily coarse.
I can't see any signs of ivory finials on the pictures I have of my mandolin, I haven't seen the top of the peghead though.
I think my instrument may well have hitchpins currently, though I haven't got a direct picture of them either. The attached picture seems to show a metal edge protector, and four rosewood hitchpins. I don't know how original either of these are of course.
Regarding the fingerboard, mine seems to be stylistically consistent with yours and Sinier de Ridder's, and also has brass bar frets. I won't know for sure whether it's original or not until I get to see it in person, that's five weeks away though!

Eugene
Aug-08-2004, 2:11pm
Thanks for the offer of pegs, Jon. #Can I assume you are going to use Bruce Brook for yours? #Actually, I know a local luthier who does pegs for hire; he supplies pegs to Ontario luthier Michael Schreiner. #I have already discussed bushing and re-pegging mine with a more appropriate set and may move forward soon.

I'm not certain, but the pins on yours may be metal and incorporated into the tailpiece. #Such one-piece tailpieces with four metal pins were pretty common in the late 19th c., sometime after the hitch-pin-set-into-the-end-block arrangement but before the covered tailpiece became popular.

More on tuners, there is an odd Roman mandolin by Petroni (1865) with those odd clock-key tuners used on English guitars. #I'm glad they never really caught on on mandolins. #When Martin came to the US in the 1830s, geared tuners were optional on Martin guitars and referred to as "patented screws." They were that Germanic six-on-a-side arrangement for scrolled Strat-like headstocks.

onthefiddle
Aug-08-2004, 3:47pm
Hi Eugene,
It's not Bruce Brook I have in mind, though unfortunately the name of the luthier seems to have completely slipped from my memory! I have his contact details back in the UK though. Anyway - it looks like you have a good source there, that will be much faster than mine!
You're probably right about the tailpiece. I just 'phoned my father and his description sounded like a tailpiece, he's going to send me a couple more pictures to confirm that. This may help date the conversion, and give me a useful set of spare fittings for a later romantic mandolin restoration!

Eugene
Aug-08-2004, 8:46pm
If detailed images of mine would help in any way, feel free to drop me an e-mail.
Good luck with it,
Eugene

onthefiddle
Aug-09-2004, 9:04am
Thanks Eugene! I may take you up on that once I have had a chance to properly inspect the instrument.
The latest two photos that my father sent me show that there may have been some type of finial on the central section of the top of the peghead, and that you were right about the tailpiece. I'll let you know if it has holes for hitchpins beneath when I get back to the UK.

pklima
Aug-09-2004, 10:10am
Here's my ugly German mandola... I haven't yet figured out how I want to string and tune it, but I've gotten it into a sufficiently decent shape to post a few photos.

pklima
Aug-09-2004, 10:12am
It's really odd to see scalloped ribs on something that has so few of them.

pklima
Aug-09-2004, 10:14am
The kidney-shaped soundhole and ugly pickguard... well, at least the inlay is better-executed than most of the German instruments. There's real mother-of-pearl and real abalone, possibly even real ivory and real coral.

pklima
Aug-09-2004, 10:17am
Finally, the always popular rear end shot. The fluting of the ribs is very shallow, but I suppose with this few ribs that's the only way it can be.

Eugene
Aug-09-2004, 11:10am
I suspect the fluting is a result of natural shrinkage. I love the fingerboard terminus that is shaped to fit around a soundhole...only some other soundhole. I really think the whole thing is kinda groovy, Peter, and should prove good fun.

Darryl Wolfe
Aug-09-2004, 11:51am
Here's a cool set of bowlback tuners I recently picked up on ebay. Do the buttons look familiar?

Eugene
Aug-09-2004, 6:36pm
Risky business, showing such stuff to this lot. Stuff like that is a rare commodity. Prepare for the descent of vultures.

pklima
Aug-10-2004, 11:05am
I suspect the fluting is a result of natural shrinkage. #I love the fingerboard terminus that is shaped to fit around a soundhole...only some other soundhole. #I really think the whole thing is kinda groovy, Peter, and should prove good fun.
It is good fun, though I suspect it'll be better with lighter strings and CGDA tuning; the low G course doesn't sound like much.

Fluting through shrinkage is a plausible and interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think the ribs really are fluted. The Germans often make waldzithers and mandokin with semi-flat backs consisting of a few broad staves. Those often display similar shallow scalloping.

Martin Jonas
Aug-11-2004, 3:29pm
Fluting through shrinkage is a plausible and interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think the ribs really are fluted. The Germans often make waldzithers and mandokin with semi-flat backs consisting of a few broad staves. Those often display similar shallow scalloping.
Indeed. My German Majestic semi flatback has seven staves, with a distinct, though shallow, scalloping. The construction is quite different from a bowl, though, and much easier to build. The staves are all the same width and the seams are all parallel. This type of scalloping isn't really comparable to that on a top-end Martin, say.

Martin

Plamen Ivanov
Aug-12-2004, 6:25am
Hello

Eugene and onthefiddle look at the picture below. This one looks very similar to yours. There are some initials on the case - F.M.C. May be some of you both has to try to contact the painter Steven J. Levine.

Good luck!

Plamen Ivanov
Aug-12-2004, 6:44am
Oh, and Peter, I don`t find this mandola so ugly...

pklima
Aug-12-2004, 9:29am
I don't think that mandola's ugly; even the kidney-shaped soundhole and the fingerboard/soundhole mismatch are charming in their own way. The pickguard inlay, on the other hand... that's just ugly. I've seen far worse, but still...

onthefiddle
Aug-12-2004, 12:25pm
Thanks for the picture Plami!
The mandolin is a little strange - the body is clearly that of a similair instrument to Eugene's and my own, yet it has a slotted head - which can only mean tuners, as far as I'm aware.
I suppose it would be possible to convert a peghead to a slotted head with tuners - as long as the peghead was thick enough to allow mounting the tuners on it's sides. It would mean major changes to the peghead though - the sides being flattened and the slots being cut.
Or of course - it may have had a new head grafted on, following an accident. I have a nice octave mandola that had the same work done - though not with a slotted head.
Jon

Eugene
Aug-13-2004, 10:09am
I would guess that both this piece and Jon's started life as a similar instrument and both were subsequenly modified at a similar date in a similar way. #This wasn't at all uncommon for working instruments made just before some evolutionary step; e.g., there are piles of 6-string guitars in museums that resulted from shortening the pegheads of the last generation of 5-course guitars.

When you do convert your mandolin back to pegs and hitch pins, Jon, Gamut Strings (http://www.gamutstrings.com/store/index.htm) is a ready source of pre-assembled string sets appropriate to the instrument. #Click on "Mandolin strings" followed by "Baroque Neapolitan mandolin strings" (you'll have to forgive the fact that the Neapolitan mandolin did not exist during the proper baroque era). #Be warned, the d of twisted brass takes some getting used to.

onthefiddle
Aug-14-2004, 12:48am
The point you made about conversions makes a lot of sense Eugene. In fact nearly all violins of the Cremonese "Golden Period" have been converted from Baroque to Modern setups - including having their necks replaced (or reset and reshaped) and their bass bars changed for longer, deeper ones - to accomodate changes in stringing and technique. Beyond this all their removable fittings have of course been changed. With the rise in interest in "Early Music" there has been some movement towards reversing these changes though. Thankfully much less work is required on my mandolin!
Thanks for the Gamut strings link - I was actually thinking of ordering from Northern Renaissance Instruments (http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/NeopMan.html) in the UK. They wouldn't be so convenient from North America, but their website does have a lot of interesting information, so is definitely worth a look. Have you had a chance to compare wound gut and wound silk for the low octave G string?

Eugene
Aug-14-2004, 8:08pm
Have you had a chance to compare wound gut and wound silk for the low octave G string?
I have not. #I know NRI tells us tonal balance across courses wasn't nearly the concern for rococo-era musicians as it is for us...but I still like more balance than not. #I have only used wound silk to date, which, I would imagine, is a little more sustaining than wound gut would be: i.e. just a little closer to the brass. #If you do a comparison, I'd be interested in your opinion.

If it's of any interest, the only recording of which I'm aware that uses historic stringing is Richard Walz's Works for Mandolin and Fortepiano (1998, Globe GLO 5187). #Other period-instrument recordings I like are Ensemble Baschenis's The Early Mandolin (1998, Ducale CDL 025), Christian Schneider's Mandoline Galante (1999, Caliope CAL 9274), and Caterina Lichtenberg's Musikinstrumente des Ferdinandeums (1997, Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum). #I believe the former two of these string with wire throughout and use a g course in unison; Caterina used gut throughout on hers.

I found "A Guide to Playing the Neapolitan Mandoline" by Paul Sparks to be very helpful (Tyler & Sparks. 1989. The Early Mandolin. Clarendon Press, Oxford). #Minkoff also bound the Leone, Fouchetti, and Denis methods in one handy volume (1983. Methodes de Mandoline. Minkoff Reprint, Geneve). #Please pardon my presumption if you've already come across all this.

Eugene
Oct-19-2004, 5:45pm
Struggling to keep this chat alive, here's a nice 1905-1909 Washburn style 225 that I bought a little while ago.

Eugene
Oct-19-2004, 5:56pm
I love the groovy multi-colored herringbone trim and rosette; I also love all the engraved pearl position markers: way more cool than such an affordable instrument should be allowed to carry. #This bridge was horrific and had been fit to an arched top; given that this top is canted but flat, the bridge has gotsta go. #I've used Ben Wilcox (http://www.brw-instruments.com/) to do this kind of work for me before and wll probably see if he's available to craft a reproduction bridge for this.

Eugene
Oct-19-2004, 5:58pm
Another cool feature of all but the most spartan Washburns was engraving of the metal hardware. #Unfortunately, two of the tuners slipped and were untunable. #Also unfortunately, this one was fit with the irreparable-in-most-situautions tuners where the worm wheel is peened onto the post. #In trying to re-peen, my local guy ended up cracking one of the brass gears. #The wheel is now pinned to the post, and I am waiting for the now slightly broader gear to be ground down so it can re-mesh with the worm gear.

Eugene
Oct-19-2004, 6:07pm
Other than the tuners and bad bridge, this is mighty healthy: no cracks or separations, minimal wear, etc. #Odd as it seems to me, Lyon & Healy used celluloid as spacers between the ribs of their bowlbacks.

Jim Garber
Oct-19-2004, 7:37pm
Another cool feature of all but the most spartan Washburns was engraving of the metal hardware. #Unfortunately, two of the tuners slipped and were untunable. #Also unfortunately, this one was fit with the irreparable-in-most-situautions tuners where the worm wheel is peened onto the post. #In trying to re-peen, my local guy ended up cracking one of the brass gears. #The wheel is now pinned to the post, and I am waiting for the now slightly broader gear to be ground down so it can remesh with the worm gear.
Eugene:
I have the same model Washburn with the exact same problem with two of the tuning gears. Neil Russell has a method of fixing these but I haven't yet gotten around to sending the tuners to him

Jim

Eugene
Oct-19-2004, 8:10pm
It was Neil who advised my local guy and pinned the gear after it had been damaged. #Neil re-peens (it's much more complex than implied by a single word, but that word is the essence of it), but it's a tricky business and too far will cack the brass gear.

Joe F
Nov-03-2004, 10:06am
The card is advertising reed organs, but I didn't know they came in bowlback shape:

eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=802&item=7111705363&rd=1)

Jim Garber
Nov-03-2004, 12:35pm
All right... I am insane, but I didn't realize how completely insane I was until I assembled the attached photo.

L to R, top row: Harwood, Vega Style 3, Martin Style 6, Pandini, L. Ricca, Washburn 225, Stridente;
Bottom row: C. Biggio, No Name "Boatback", Grauso, American Conservatory mandola, Waldo, No Name Pearl bordered.

Yikes!

Eugene
Nov-03-2004, 2:43pm
This is supposed to be "pictures of your bowlback," not "picture of your bowlbacks!" I think this is some kind of violation.

MANDOLINMYSTER
Nov-03-2004, 7:28pm
You got MAS http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

JGWoods
Nov-04-2004, 12:18pm
All those mandos for less than the price of a fancy Gibson I bet.
Great picture!

best
jgwoods

Jim Garber
Nov-05-2004, 10:48am
All those mandos for less than the price of a fancy Gibson I bet.
Well, definitely less than a Loar. My Pandini cost about what a good contemporary A would go for. The Martin is too fancy for its own good but needs considerable work but I paid a reasonable price for a next-to-top of the line vintage instrument. The others were mostly gotten on eBay so a few hundred here and there.

Suffice it to say -- more $$ than I would like to think about.

Jim

Jim Garber
Nov-05-2004, 10:49am
This is supposed to be "pictures of your bowlback," not "picture of your bowlbacks!" #I think this is some kind of violation.
Eugene:
I know for a fact that even you have more than one.

Jim

Eugene
Nov-05-2004, 11:00am
*Shhh...*

Jim Garber
Nov-05-2004, 11:06am
All right... it is our little secret http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Jim

Eugene
Nov-05-2004, 11:11am
Another whispered aside: A good many have moved through my stable, but you are sporting comfortably more than I am at this time, Jim. #This is a collection of which you should be very proud. #I'm particularly fond of your Ricca...and the Harwood is groovy if only for its obscurity, almost Germanically broad soundbox, freaky scratchplate, and ties of the brand to some rather cool harp-guitars.

Jim Garber
Nov-05-2004, 11:31am
The Harwood is playable and has a rather loud sound, not particularly refined. Then again, I have it strung with GHS ultralights.

The Ricca is one that needs some parts. I have been trying to get an actual Ricca tailpiece and almost bought a basket case one last year just for the tailpiece.

Jim

resonant68
Nov-14-2004, 9:15pm
I'm having trouble posting the address for my pics...how do I?

Keith Miller
Nov-14-2004, 9:46pm
That's 13 mandos there, VERY unlucky number...better get another #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jim Garber
Nov-14-2004, 9:53pm
I'm having trouble posting the address for my pics...how do I?
Try this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=23;t=13102) for info.

Jim

Arto
Nov-15-2004, 3:02pm
How do you make the pictures smaller size, to make it possible to post them here? (I suppose my 16 year old son would know, but I canīt follow his explanations and he canīt tolerate slow-wit fossils like myself!)

thanks, Arto

Jim Garber
Nov-15-2004, 5:40pm
Arto:
You can make the pics smaller in an imaging program. You might even have one that came with your camera or scanner.

Or, contact me off-list and send me a few via email and I can send them back to you smaller.

Jim

acousticphd
Nov-16-2004, 3:42pm
All right... I am insane, but I didn't realize how completely insane I was until I assembled the attached photo.

Jim, I'd like to ask where I can get one of those nice, oversized red plush padded mandolin stands like you show in your picture.

Jim Garber
Nov-16-2004, 6:36pm
That is a special mandolin stand made for and unlucky number of mandolins. #I think I got it at Dawg's House of Furniture on Rte 1.

It is signed by Lloyd Loar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

onthefiddle
Nov-19-2004, 5:12pm
Hi everyone - sorry to be silent so long - I've just got internet access again, but that's another story!
Eugene - I visited the Victoria & Albert museum in London a few weeks ago, and they have a labelled Clement Eulry mandolin which is all but identical to your own. Having seen it I'd be very surprised if yours isn't an Eulry.
I have to go down to London next week again, so I'll take my digital camera with me, and try to find the time to pop into the V&A again. I'll post the results here.
Jon

Eugene
Nov-19-2004, 7:54pm
Welcome back, Jon. You'll have to check out the famous 6-course mandolino by Lambert at the V&A. They also hold that weird tri-holed (theorbo-like) mandolino by Perugia, some great 18th-c. Vinaccia stuff, the Petroni with Portuguese-like tuners, and guitars...don't even get me started on guitars. Can you manage a couple pictures?

onlyagibsonisgoodenuff
Nov-20-2004, 9:55am
My grandfather used to play this one, which inspired me to play mandolin. Although I favored the archtop mandolins, like Gibson, etc. I couldn't get this one to play in tune or stay in my lap!

Jim Garber
Nov-22-2004, 10:34am
I just got back from CMSA and managed to sanre a few pictures of some bowlbacks. There were quite a few interesting ones that I wish I had time to track down the folks who had them. Oh well, next time.

This is the amazing Calace liuto cantabile that the Munier Orchestra owns. Holding it is David Betts who plays this monster in the orch and is the caretaker of it. The neck is humongous. I must ask him for the year that it was made.

Jim

Jim Garber
Nov-22-2004, 10:36am
Here is the back of the Calace liuto.

Jim

Jim Garber
Nov-22-2004, 10:43am
Here is a nice maple-bowled Calace mandolin made in 1948 and owned by Dave Evans.

Jim

Jim Garber
Nov-22-2004, 10:44am
Here is the back of the '48 Calace

onthefiddle
Nov-22-2004, 12:40pm
I've just got back from my trip to London and the V&A.
I have to apologise in advance for the quality of the pictures, I was trying a new camera - who would guess that a higher resolution camera would produce lower resolution pictures? Conditions were a little extreme for it though - it's actually very dark in the Musical Instrument section, and the glass cases make using flash pointless. Camera shake doesn't help either!
You'll be pleased to know, Eugene, that the Eulry is flanked by two Vinaccias - a Vincenzo and an Antonio if I remember rightly - so it's in very fine company.
The quality should be sufficient to give you a good idea of how similair they are anyway http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

onthefiddle
Nov-22-2004, 12:43pm
Here's a three-quarter view of the Eulry:

Eugene
Nov-22-2004, 12:47pm
Thanks for that, Jon. What an odd little scratchplate. It doesn't quite seem to fit. Living right next door to a couple of Vinaccia kin, I'm vicariously flattered.

onthefiddle
Nov-22-2004, 12:55pm
Here's a view of the back of the Eulry. I hope these pictures have helped, next time I'm in London I'll take my old 2.1 megapixel Sony and get some better shots - it's back to the shop for this camera!
I'm afraid I don't have details, such as year, for this - as I took a photo of the accompanying card (as I normally do), unfortunately it's completely undecipherable!

Jon

MANDOLINMYSTER
Nov-29-2004, 5:51pm
Heres a old Washburn I keep around for when I want to go back, way back to my roots

MANDOLINMYSTER
Nov-29-2004, 6:03pm
And heres a close up of the tailpiece cover for that ol' Washburn

Jim Garber
Nov-29-2004, 6:12pm
Mike:
That looks like a model 235 from circa 1912. Does it have a cross-like inlay on the headstock and 28 rosewood ribs? That is a nice one.

Jim

Bob A
Nov-29-2004, 6:28pm
Jon, I don't know if they can be attached to a digital camera, but a polarising filter is a great way to eliminate the reflections of a glass case; I'd encourage you to consider trying one out. (They also have interesting effects on color saturation etc. And with the instant gratification available in the digiworld, it would be easy to see the immediate effects of filter rotation).

MANDOLINMYSTER
Nov-29-2004, 6:29pm
Hey Jim,

Yes it has the cross inlay, but I only count 26 ribs, not including the 2 larger ones on the sides, 26 plus 2= 28, yup 28 ribs http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I take some more pics when my camera recharges

onthefiddle
Dec-02-2004, 1:32pm
Hi Bob,
I do actually have a polarising filter for my older Sony camera - you have to use the right sort with a digital camera, I'm afraid I can't even remember what the different types are though!
Unfortunately, conditions in the V&A are pretty unsuitable for using a polarising filter - it's very dark in the musical instrument section, some instruments are kept in darkened cases which you can light momentarily if you want to see them. I suppose this is because their varnish contains light fugitive pigments.
The glass cases render flash pretty impractical too. As I said - I was testing that camera pretty hard. Still I think my old Sony would have done better, there's only one way to be sure though - but I don't know when I'll be in London next.
If you happen to be in London I can recommend a visit to the V&A for it's mandolins, as well as the many other fine and unusual instruments there - it's a huge museum, if you spent a week there you may only scratch the surface!
Jon

Martin Jonas
Dec-02-2004, 5:44pm
As it happens, I had a couple of free hours in London on Friday and popped into the V&A. The main impression that I take back is always that of a vast maze. Even with the map they provide, it's virtually impossible to find anything without having the guards give you directions, and the Musical Instruments department is one of the worst, being situated on an open platform floating above the Fashion department. Still, it has a lot of fascinating instruments, although lutes and citterns seem to feature rather more prominently than mandolins or other mandokin.

Martin

sailor
Jan-17-2005, 2:59pm
Oops, added pics of my mandolin as new topic instead of as reply. So the pics of my unknown bowlback are under the topic "Whatsit" under Post a picture of your mandolin. Heres a link to my site with all the pics My Webpage (http://home.earthlink.net/~mac86/antiquemandolin/)

Eugene
Jan-20-2005, 4:01pm
Here's the return of "not quite what you expected:" an odd speculative reproduction of a 16th-c. vaulted-back vihuela da mano. #Although there are a couple seam separations currently receiving attention, the ribbed maple back is awesome, every rib intensely flamed and beautifully contrasted in changing the angle of view.

Eugene
Jan-20-2005, 4:03pm
The top is another matter. #I suspect it was built very early in the early-music revival, maybe ca. 1970, before folks had really figured out how to make such lightly gut-strung instruments functional as instruments. #As nice as the "bowl" is, the top is far too heavy, the rose rather coarse, and the bridge is massive, sporting a guitar-like saddle. #Too bad, because a very fine piece of spruce went into the top's construction. #This piece has re-entered my thoughts because it's been carried to the local luthier for an overhaul. #He will either 1) plane the existing soundboard to a functional, responsive thickness and chop out the coarse rose to replace it with an inset one or 2) replace the soundboard altogether and chip carve a new rose. #The gross and lumpy bridge is going to be replaced with a more appropriately lute-like one. #I'm looking forward to its return.

Eugene
Jan-20-2005, 4:34pm
Jon, I'm also curious if you've ever received your mid-19th-c. mandolin, and I'm curious regarding its current state of being. Do you have the time to share?

onthefiddle
Jan-22-2005, 5:03am
Hi Eugene,

I've been really busy since I got back to the UK, and unfortunately haven't had any time to work on my own instruments. I suppose that's a good thing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have taken the tailpiece off, and it has never had hitchpins. However, it does look like it was originally set up with pegs. I did find a picture of an identical instrument with pegs fitted, but can't seem to find it it right now - I'll have a look when I have more time later.
This may make it a transitional mandolin. Stringing is the most interesting aspect here, the whole world would not have switched to steel strings immediately, and it seems unlikely that a steel strung mandolin with pegs would be a very practical instrument.
I would be interested to hear of anyone else's opinion on when the older mixed strings finally faded out.

I had better get back to work now!
Jon

onthefiddle
Jan-24-2005, 7:53am
Eugene,

I haven't been able to find that photo (I had to restore a backup after my PC was infected with a virus recently, and it may have been lost then).
I was looking at the claimed "early Embergher" that has been offered on eBay recently. This has friction tuners, positioned in a similair manner to pegs, and this is obviously another possibility. I'll keep my mind open though, as it is certainly in the style of an older mandolin.

Jon

onthefiddle
Jan-24-2005, 7:56am
I was going to attach a picture of the friction tuners to my last post, but it strangely dissapeared http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Hopefully you should see it now.

onthefiddle
Feb-01-2005, 4:54am
I have some more news on my nineteenth century Mandolin. An identical instrument was recently put up for sale on ebay.co.uk (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3779524178&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT) . The seller withdrew it quite quickly, as the amount of questions he received made him believe that perhaps he had an old Vinaccia. I would also be very pleased if this turned out to be the case - but it seems extremely unlikely! He has told me that he will be relisting it soon.

The interesting thing about this mandolin is that it is still fitted with pegs. Not normal pegs however, they have metal eyelets on the end, like friction tuners, but apparently they are pegs.

This may not make things clearer necessarily. The pegs point to perhaps a late instrument intended for the older stringing, while the tailpiece and metal eyelets probably point to steel cored strings (which would cause more wear to the string holes on completely wooden pegs).

My best guess is that these were (perhaps French) entry level instruments, made at the beginning of the big mandolin revival, in the latter half of the nineteenth century. I'm not so sure what strings they were made for, but I'll probably fit pegs to my Mandolin, and string it up with the older stringing to give me an inexpensive "Baroque" style Neapolitan Mandolin.

The seller of the Mandolin which turned up recently sent me some photos, so I'll post a few of those here.

onthefiddle
Feb-01-2005, 4:58am
Here are the pegs viewed from behind the peghead.

onthefiddle
Feb-01-2005, 5:02am
Here is the front of the peghead.
This Mandolin sports mother of pearl dot inlays on the peghead, which is the only difference that I have spotted between this instrument and my own.

onthefiddle
Feb-08-2005, 3:07pm
I've had a thought regarding the unusual pegs with metal eyelets on this mandolin.

The use of pegs on a Neapoltan mandolin, even with the older mixed strings, has it's downside. This is because of the instruments use of a peghead as opposed to a pegbox.
String tension will tend to pull the end of the pegs towards the nut. On the rear of the pegbox the shaft of the peg will be pressing against the upper side of the peghole.
Because of this the pegholes will tend to become oval quite quickly - making tuning more difficult and causing them to slip easily.

This is not so much of a problem for instruments with a pegbox, as the pegs are supported either side of the strings.

You'll note that the pegs on this mandolin are fitted so that the ends are not quite flush with the front face of the peghead. The eyelets project very little indeed. I think that they were probably used to help minimise this problem.

I don't know if you have had your new pegs made and fitted yet Eugene, but this does have some implications regarding materials used. Because of the nature of this wear to the pegholes, I think it would be wise to reverse the modern practice of using pegs made from a harder material than the pegbox (or peghead in this case). It's not such a good idea to bush pegholes overly frequently, just in terms of maintaining the original fabric of the instrument.

Before the introduction of higher tension modern strings it was normal practice to use softer woods for pegs on Violins. Fruitwoods were often used, Plumwood makes particularly attractive pegs, and the pegs on this Mandolin may be made of Apple wood. The harder woods were introduced more widely to cope with increased wear on the stringholes with the higher tension strings, that wouldn't apply to a Mandolin strung in the "Baroque" manner though.

Another thought is that if any of your pegholes require bushing it may be a good idea to use a particularly hard wood. Both of these instruments could have Ebony bushings quite discreetly. A hard wood (though not as hard as Ebony) more commonly used for bushings is Boxwood, which would certainly be an improvement over maple. Be sure that it is northern European Boxwood though (French and English are normally thought to be best), as there are many other species (many completely unrelated) sold as Boxwood, all of which are much softer.

Jon

Eugene
Feb-08-2005, 5:39pm
Thanks for your thoughts, Jon. No, I haven't had the local luthier who does pegs for hire do my mandolin yet, but he did make a set for my pending baroque guitar (being built by the grossly tardy Tom Crandall of NYC). The guitar pegs are of fabulous plum with ebony pips and are perfectly crafted. He's also the guy who is charged with retopping my vihuela (the one with the unusual lute-like pegbox) pictured above.

Jim Garber
Mar-11-2005, 2:10pm
Well, none of these are mine, but I was doing a comparative study of the differences in these mandolins by Umberto Ceccherini and it is amazing how few are similar in ornamentation.

I would have thought that those pickguards were manufactured for the shop but it seems like each one is different.

Jim

Martin Jonas
Mar-12-2005, 2:16pm
Nice collage, Jim. As the owner of Nos. 5 and 7 in that line-up, I can confirm that the pickguards look quite different in the flesh as well. No. 5 is a good deal more finely detailed than No. 7 and also has more pristine polished edges on the tortoiseshell, possibly as a result of having been more carefully stored and less handled. In each instance, the vine stem is silver (or "German silver") inlay and the leaves are mother of pearl. The various de Meglios and de Meglio clones have similar styles of pickguards, with the same generic vine motif, but the ones I've seen are cruder still than No. 7. I suspect that the intricacy of the inlay and the style of the soundhole surround inlay (halfway or all the way around) served as markers for the rank of the instrument in Ceccherini's list. I also suspect that all the pickguards, de Meglio as well as Ceccherini, were made in the same external workshop and that they were working from generic designs, but were fashioning at least the higher ones individually, allowing the craftsmen some leeway for artistic expression. You can add to this the frustrating lack of dates on the labels which means that we don't know how much the above represents an evolution of the pickguard or a snapshot of the model range.

As an aside, I was told last weekend that Ceccherini made various exotic 10-string and 12-string models as well (no idea of the number of courses). Anybody seen them?

Martin

MANDOLINMYSTER
Mar-19-2005, 9:28pm
Heres the rear of the headstock of an old bowlback I got many years ago

MANDOLINMYSTER
Mar-19-2005, 9:32pm
And now the front, note the tuning buttons

MANDOLINMYSTER
Mar-19-2005, 9:37pm
Here the bowl, or lack of, must of been one heck of a party!

MANDOLINMYSTER
Mar-19-2005, 9:45pm
and heres the fingerboard, this must have been one beauty in its day, the only sign of a makers mark is on the neck block but its badly faded, looks like something?? New York

CervenySatek
Mar-26-2005, 12:08pm
Hi all,

Well, this is probably a bottom-of-the-line mandolin, but I'm posting a picture because of its unusually large bowl. The scale is 13 inches, but the length from nut to the end of the body is 19 inches. It's about 8.5 inches across, at the cant.

it's in bad shape and has a crude bridge, but I think the deep bowl combined with the 13inch scale gives it a really interesting sound. It also has very low sustain so playing rhythm and melody and the same time sounds about as "earthy" as a mandolin can sound.

Does anyone out there know if there exists any quality bowl-backs with bowls as large as this?

The picture is of it next to a fairly standard size Washburn also posted: URL=http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=23398;st=0;r=1;&#entry253795]here[/URL]

CervenySatek
Mar-26-2005, 12:09pm
and the front...

Bob A
Mar-29-2005, 1:21am
I just measured my 1922 Calace and found it was about 18.5 inches from nut to end. Only 8 inches across, however. The bowl also maintains its depth for quite a distance, rather than slanting gracefully toward the neck. Strong bass response for a bowlback.

A real pity about the trainwreck, above. Looks to have been quite a nice instrument, before the dissection.

Martin Jonas
Mar-29-2005, 5:30am
Looking at the last few posts in this thread, it strikes me that MANDOLINMYSTER and CervenySatek should get together: one has a working headstock with intact front-mounted tuners, but no bowl (and frankly no chance of restoring it) and the other has a lovely Washburn missing half of its front-mounted tuners. #The tuners aren't exactly the same, but close enough, and with the front-mounted system, there's no need to match up drill holes. #I would have thought swapping the tuners over should be fairly straightforward. #How about it?

Martin
PS: Having looked again at the close-ups of CervenySatek's Washburn tuners in the other (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=23398;st=0) thread, I think the tuners are virtually identical, with only minor differences in the engraving. I would be surprised if they weren't by the same maker. They look different on first glance, because the underlying headstock shape is different and they are therefore mounted at a different angle, but the metal pieces should be a perfect match.

CervenySatek
Mar-29-2005, 7:17pm
Ah, good catch Martin. That is a coincidence. What d'ya say, MANDOLINMYSTER? If you want to, send me the measurements...

CervenySatek
Mar-29-2005, 9:31pm
Bob A, do you happen to know if that size is typical of Calaces, modern or vintage?

MANDOLINMYSTER
Mar-29-2005, 10:08pm
I think at this time I will just leave the tuners on that sorry bowl-less back mandolin, besides the tuners are in pretty bad shape. I am sure you will find a set if you keep looking http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

CervenySatek
Mar-31-2005, 9:07am
Hmm, I've never been tempted to use an emoticon until this moment http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

(isn't there a crying one?)

Kidding... actually, I don't blame you at all - that headstock is slick!

Jim Garber
Mar-31-2005, 9:15am
Michael:
Are the tuners non-functional, that is, they do not turn, are missing gears and the like? If so, they may be made to work fine with some oiling anc cleaning or de-rusting. If it is just the buttons, they can easily be replaced as well, even with something pretty close. I think Stew-mac makes grained ivorid buttons. In any case, what are you going to do with a basket case such as that. I suppose you could build a bowl around it.

CervenySatek:
What is the distance from center-to-center of the posts of the tuners that you do have? You may still be able to rig something up. Also what is the height of the posts.

Jim

CervenySatek
Mar-31-2005, 7:04pm
Hi Jim, the post height looks like 7/16 inches from the plate surface (is that what you meant?). The peg-center spacing looks consistently 29/32.

Jonathan

Bob A
Apr-01-2005, 10:25am
I can't tell you whether the size of the Calace is typical. The instrument was intended to be an orchestra model, I'm told, which would imply a construction goal perhaps more bassy and less cutting in tone than a soloist's instrument.

I have a mandolin made by Rafaele De Santino which is supposedly made according to Calace specs by a luthier who worked in Calace's shop. It is quite a different animal, in design and sound.

Vkiolaphides has a modern Calace, a low-end instrument, which he would probably measure for you if asked. He usuallly posts in the classical section if you want to PM him.

David M.
Apr-13-2005, 1:52pm
This one looks identical to mandonucs' mando. The case looks the same, except mine is in much worse shape.

I got this last week from my wife's grandma. Somebody has played it alot based on the stains on the back of the neck.

I just strung it last night and am having trouble w/one of the G tuners. It binds in one spot.

Markelberry
Apr-16-2005, 5:56pm
Okay heres my George Bauer I just purchased busted,this little beauty will live again!!

Markelberry
Apr-16-2005, 5:57pm
and now the painfull part

Markelberry
Apr-16-2005, 5:58pm
OUCH!!!!

Markelberry
Apr-16-2005, 6:00pm
Anyone have any ideas what this is about?

Markelberry
Apr-16-2005, 6:01pm
da bowl

Markelberry
Apr-16-2005, 6:04pm
this is nice,anyway its not in hand yet itreally struck me as a nice piece worthy of rescue. I cant wait till it plays again.

Jim Garber
Apr-16-2005, 8:31pm
Markelberry:
It looks like someone attempted reptile dentistry style repair job on that one. Are you planning to do work on that Bauer yourself? If you are a good repair person and are willing to work on these, you may have some work from some of us on this board.

Jim

Markelberry
Apr-16-2005, 9:31pm
No Im not a repairman. I was lokking on frets.com an it looked like there was no damage that could not be repaired. It looks like the break at the nut could be fixed. Im not sure what happened to the peghead overlay or the piece of metal attached on the reverse. I do know a repairman that is good, Im really hoping it can be fixed I thought it looked to good to let it die, maybe just to me. It sounds by your comment it looks like a pretty hopeless case,please someone tell me theres hope.

Martin Jonas
Apr-17-2005, 7:20am
I'm sure it can be fixed. Whether it's economical to do so is a different story. I don't know anything about Bauer bowlbacks, although it's certainly a pretty-looking thing. On valuable vintage instruments, this break would certainly be fixed; on a generic bowlback, it's less likely that one would bother, as there are plenty out there in better condition. I don't know which catefory yours fit in.

I also agree with Jim that it looks as if there has already been a previous extensive repair, and not a good one. The engraved metal plate on the headstock is of course the original back plate of the enclosed tuners, and is very pretty. However, the bolted-on triangle (is it metal?) does not look original and may be some attempt at externally bracing a cracked headstock. It looks like your headstock suffered two catastrophic breaks: the first one was along the line of the lowest pair of tuning posts, and is probably what prompted the previous repair, and the second one broke the neck at the nut. It's possible that the second break was a consequence of the weakening of the headstock following the first one. Your problem is going to be that you'll need to fix both breaks to get that headstock structurally sound again. As I said, it can be done, but it won't be cheap if you go to a luthier and it won't be easy if you want to try it yourself.

Martin

Eugene
Apr-17-2005, 10:03am
That is awesome, Markelberry. How did you come to attribute this to George Bauer? I have seen some other characters offer make some very dubious attributions to Bauer. Instruments in Bauer's own hands are state of the art (like this mandolin), but his name later became one of those transitory, multi-mass-producer brands (I've seen some low end L&H mandolins labeled Bauer).

...And Ouch indeed!

guitharsis
May-03-2005, 10:17am
Just got my DeMeglio back from the luthier. He made a new brige and a string downholder.

www.guitarlab.org/mando2.jpg


It looks and plays great! He commented on how much louder it is with the new bridge.

Doreen

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:31am
I really really want to see, but that link seems bad.

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:50am
...And I'm still waiting for mandolooter's new mandolin to appear here, mandolooter!

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:53am
Here's a mandolino Bresciano made by Bavassano e Figlio of Naples, ca. 1890s that I bought from a French dealer in late 2004.

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:54am
It's a little unusual in sporting a full violin scroll to decorate the pegbox (most I've seen have carried a partial scroll with a square finial).

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:55am
In profile:

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:57am
The maple bowl carries some decent figure and the rosewood section of the clasp offers an interesting contrast.

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:58am
There is some simple, decent scrollwork to the clasp's maple section.

Eugene
May-03-2005, 11:59am
In case anybody is interested in the label:

Eugene
May-03-2005, 12:01pm
Currently, this is not in my possession. #It is off to Ben Wilcox's shop (http://www.brw-instruments.com/) to get a top crack tended and lower the action a bit. #The action correction will probably be achieved by shaving the tie block of the ebony bridge to an appropriate height. #The wire strings are gone in favor of gut. #Thanks to Richard for being kind enough to receive this in France and carry it to the US for me.

Martin Jonas
May-03-2005, 12:11pm
I really really want to see, but that link seems bad.
Try these:

Photo 1 (http://www.guitarlab.org/mando1.jpg)
Photo 2 (http://www.guitarlab.org/mando2.jpg)
Photo 3 (http://www.guitarlab.org/mando3.jpg)
Photo 4 (http://www.guitarlab.org/mando4.jpg)
Photo 5 (http://www.guitarlab.org/mando5.jpg)
Photo 6 (http://www.guitarlab.org/mando6.jpg)
Photo 7 (http://www.guitarlab.org/mando7.jpg)

Martin

Eugene
May-03-2005, 12:31pm
It seems to have been a temporary outage at guitarlab.org, because they're all coming up beautifully now. Congrats, Doreen! I don't recall, what was the state of the original bridge that required replacement: was it damaged or missing? If the former, did you keep the original? the replacement looks like rosewood. Can you confirm?

guitharsis
May-03-2005, 2:30pm
Thanks for posting, Martin.

Eugene, I purchased the mandolin in February from a private owner. He had it since the 60's. Ebay Item #3779624019.

The bridge on the mandolin was useable but very plain. The original was included with the purchase but was damaged beyond repair. The replacement is rosewood. It was quite a challenge for him to make it.

Jim Garber
May-21-2005, 5:54pm
Here's a few pics of my Demeglio circa 1901. Front.

Jim

Jim Garber
May-21-2005, 5:55pm
Side showing the sound ports.

Jim

Jim Garber
May-21-2005, 5:56pm
Here's the bridge and tailpiece cover.

Jim

Jim Garber
May-21-2005, 5:57pm
Here's a close-up of the bridge showing the characteristic brass rod for saddle.

Jim

Jim Garber
May-21-2005, 5:59pm
Here is the headstock showing also the zero fret and brass nut. I had never examined one in person so this was interesting esp the way the nut was made.

Jim

Eugene
May-21-2005, 8:34pm
Very nice! The spruce looks practically new.

Jim Garber
May-21-2005, 11:00pm
The top is in very good shape. There is some slight buzzing on the a string around the 5th fret or so, but i think that that can be remedied.

Here is a closeup of the zero fret with the brass nut. It must add something to the sound as well as the brass saddle.

Jim

prayerbone
May-22-2005, 11:37am
hi,very sweet jim!!i think my pollmans going to have a sound port a crack http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif aj

Martin Jonas
May-22-2005, 12:48pm
Jim --

That one looks really nice. My Rinaldi/de Meglio also has the same brass nut/zero fret arrangement where the two parts are separate pieces set next to each other into a single slot. On mine, they can be taken out without effort when the strings are off, which would make for an extremely simple left-hand conversion. On the Ceccherinis, on the other hand, it's only a single metal piece fulfilling both functions, and much more intricately worked.

The Rinaldi also has dark-stained tuner buttons, but they don't look as classy as yours. Yours look like stained bone; mine are chunkier and are some primitive plastic, i think, possibly bakelite (when was that invented?). Scratch plate and tailpiece cover are exactly like on yours, but the bridge is a bit less finely worked. I have a rosewood fretboard; yours looks like ebony. The wood in your top looks great; mine is much wider-grained.

Incidentally, I will get my Rinaldi back later this week when my mother comes over from Germany. As I've mentioned before, the top on the Rinaldi has been refinished by somebody in what looks like a cheap orange wood stain (not a proper instrument finish, I think), whereas the orginals have an unfinished look, like yours and like one of my Ceccherinis (the other has a very fine wax-like finish). What do you think -- are they actually unfinished, or is it some very thin clear finish? I'm thinking of stripping the inappropriate finish off the Rinaldi and leave the wood open, but I'm unsure of how to do that. It looks too set to be stripped purely mechanically and I'm reluctant to get out the white spirit.

Martin

guitharsis
May-23-2005, 11:26am
Beautiful DeMegliio, Jim! It looks to be in great condition. Enjoy!

Doreen

onthefiddle
May-26-2005, 12:51pm
Martin is your Rinaldi's soundboard varnished in the same manner as this one? (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7326001057&rd=1) If so, it looks like there is a good chance that the finish is original.

Incidentally, personally I don't think that these instruments are all from the same source, the de Meglio model was an extremely popular one for some time though, and there were some excellent makers using it. Giovanni de Meglio obviously felt the pressure from copies enough to make quite strong declarations regarding the originality of his instruments on some of his labels. It's a similair situation to that existing with arched top mandolins in more recent times.

Does anyone know if any particular player was associated with de Meglio? Or was their reputation founded solely on the quality of their instruments?

Jon

Martin Jonas
May-26-2005, 5:38pm
Thanks Jon -- that's an interesting link. Yes, indeed, the finish on my Rinaldi looks like that, so it may well be original after all for that particular incarnation of the de Meglio construction. My Rinaldi is in very much better condition than that one, though, and I'm glad to say it doesn't have such a horribly botched bridge. I also have an aluminium decoration on the headstock which the Ebay one doesn't and mine still has its string guard. But otherwise, it's a close match. The Rinaldi has a rosewood fretboard whereas I think instruments with the de Meglio label have ebony (as do Ceccherinis). Strange to see that the Rinaldi label on the Ebay instrument is pasted in at an odd angle: it looks to me like it may have fallen off and reglued at some stage. It's not like that one mine.

My mother has arrived today from Germany, so I now have the Rinaldi and both Ceccherinis all in the same place for the first time.

Martin

prayerbone
Jun-03-2005, 12:25pm
hi well my pollman came today..pics to follow they wont link today ..aj

Eugene
Jun-03-2005, 3:59pm
I'm holding you to that promise, prayerbone!

mandolooter
Jun-06-2005, 11:32am
Eugene...drum-roll.... finally, here it is!
No name or makers info, 36 ribs, very full, crisp and sweet sound, easy to play, but just turned out to not be my cup of tea. Way too hard to hold on to whilst standing up and doin a chop chord at my local bluegrass jam! I was very pleasently surprised at the volume and tone of it tho, being a non-carved top and all. Has since found a wonderful home with a friend who gives it the workout it needs. It did remind me of my belly tho...Im a bowl-front!

Jim Garber
Jun-06-2005, 2:14pm
No name or makers info, 36 ribs, very full, crisp and sweet sound, easy to play, but just turned out to not be my cup of tea.
I don't recall the prior dicsussion on this one.

Looks very Lyon-&-Healical to me. Shape of the pickguard. The pickguard nlay resembles a pic in a catalog I have of a style 607 tho that would have fewer ribs. There is a style 606 described as having 35 ribs but there is no picture. Circa 1909-13.

It would be good to get larger pics esp of the headstock mto tell for sure.

Jim

Eugene
Jun-09-2005, 11:32am
Thank you, mandolooter. Were there any justice, you would have been struck by lightening in even thinking on trying to "chop" this lovely creature. I am sorry your brief tryst didn't bear fruit.

Jim Garber
Jun-10-2005, 10:57pm
I bought one of these Riccas a few years ago and have been trying to find parts for it for some time, notably a tailpiece cover and functional bridge. I got thise new one today but it is too nice just to use for parts. Has a nice engraved tailpiece and the remains of a bridge. The new one is a style 4 and the fancier one is a style 4 1/2. Both have rosewood bowls with 23 ribs. The 4 1/2 has some tulipwood trim on the sides of the bowl.

Jim

Jim Garber
Jun-10-2005, 10:59pm
Closer view of the bodies.

Jim Garber
Jun-10-2005, 11:02pm
The bridge is interesting. It seems to have an arch to it, possibly some sort of compensation. The ends are broken off, but I can see that same slightly arched outline on the tops of both mandolins.

Jim

Jim Garber
Jun-10-2005, 11:03pm
Here is the elusive tailpiece cover. I have seen a few other variations with the same monogram.

Jim

onthefiddle
Jun-11-2005, 4:17am
Jim - I'm sure that I have seen a modern bridge curved in a similar manner to your Ricca. I have a feeling that it may have been on a Sobell Bouzouki, though I can't see anything in a very quick scan of his website. I'll let you know if I come across anything more.

Jon

Martin Jonas
Jul-02-2005, 1:38pm
I currently have all four of the bowlbacks that I've got off Ebay in the past year and a bit at home, including the two that were with my mother for the last eight months. So, I thought it's time for a couple of family photos.

Martin

From left:

Umberto Ceccherini
Carlo Rinaldi
Giuseppe Vinaccia
Umberto Ceccherini

Martin Jonas
Jul-02-2005, 1:41pm
And the backs, nicely showing off the contrast of the maple bowl of the Vinaccia.

Martin

Jim Garber
Sep-10-2005, 10:45am
Here's my recently acquired 1920s Calace e Figlio. I call this style the "hole-in-the-head." It will need some restoration before it is fully playable.

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-10-2005, 10:46am
Calace - back view

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-10-2005, 10:48am
Calace -- body detail. I think that the armrest is original but the bridge and possibly the tuners are not.

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-10-2005, 10:49am
Closeup of the bridge. Those who have similar mandolins with original bridges... I would love to compare.

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-10-2005, 10:51am
Calace -- pegheads views.

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-10-2005, 10:53am
Here's a view of the Calace label. There is no date written but a round wax seal. It looks like there is a monogram on the seal but I can;t make it out.

Jim

vkioulaphides
Sep-12-2005, 11:31am
Congrats, Jim! May you enjoy your new baby in good health and cheer!

It is interesting/curious how the Calace design has mutated over the decades; I would even hazard to say that it has been "Romanized" a tad: the stubby, bulbous body-shape has been elongated, the neck thinned down, the fingerboard narrowed down... veeery interesting!

There has been much discussion about the QUALITATIVE evolution of the family firm— according to most accounts, sadly, a downward one— but very little (to my knowledge) has been discussed about the QUANTITATIVE (i.e. geometrical, acoustical, specificational) changes that have occurred over time.

It would be truly fascinating to see this process, the body of these mandolins evolving, in statu mutandi. Dissertation, anyone? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Bob A
Sep-12-2005, 12:40pm
While I've not handled a modern Calace, I will second Victor's wishes for hard data on dimensions etc. Alex Timmerman's book has wonderful drawings of the structure and size of the many instruments therein; many are guitars, and some ancient mandolins. One could wish for something similar encompassing the Neapolitan type instruments from 1875 to date. Descriptions of various models by the makers of note would also be very desireable.

I find my 1922 Calace to be stout and stoutly-built; it is not what I would have expected, given my experience with the much more lightly-constructed instruments I've played, e.g. a Giuseppe Vinaccia from 1890s, or a Salsedo from 1895. While my preference has been toward light construction, the Calace is a fine instrument that speaks with authority and gravitas; it has a strong bass and midrange, and less treble that is usual with the others.

Howzabout a Macarthur grant (or something similar)for someone to do the research and get it printed up?

Jim Garber
Sep-13-2005, 10:48pm
Interesting few days: I have had two friends send me jpegs of incredible mandolins. First up, Ian asked me to post a few of this 1887 Salsedo.

Ian says:

his is an 1887 fluted mandolin by Luigi Salsedo. The entire neck and head, as you can see from the photos, are covered in TT Shell, even the bridge is made entirely from TT shell and the nut is mother of pearl. German Silver is the material of the "enclosed back plate" of the headThe case itself was obviously made for this mandolin and appears to be from solid oak.

Apparently this mandolin was given to him, our pupil, (as a gift) last year, by someone who has had it in a cupboard for the past 40 years.

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-13-2005, 10:55pm
Closeup of the scratchplate, soundhole and bridge.

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-13-2005, 10:58pm
Peghead

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-13-2005, 10:59pm
Bottom of the bowl.

Jim

Jim Garber
Sep-13-2005, 11:02pm
What follows are some pics of an 1899 Vinaccia from a private colllection, equal to the Salsedo in ornateness. Both have the necks sheathed in tortoise shell.

Jim