Electric IV kit

[mikeyes]

I have the kit sitting on my couch and will tackle it this weekend. Mostly I need an electric mandolin for a project and since I was very successful making the acoustic kit, I thought I would try my hand at a Mandocaster clone.

I was surprised to see that, so far, no one has made one. Will I be the first? (Will I need to add a Virzi <G>?)

There is a thread and a picture on the Electric section too.

[mikeyes]

I opened the package and found the following:

A Saga logo, which means that most likely it is a clone of the KM-300E since it does seem to have the same hardware and is made of the same wood.

Some type of finish already on the wood. Without doing much more than observing, I can't tell you if I will be able to stain or put on another finish. I suspect I can.

No binding on the fingerboard. Flat fingerboard (or a very slight radius.)

Headstock configured to be shaped or cut into a more pleasing style, I think a backwards Fender cut might do.

No instructions, even though the ad on the IV site promised instructions. Maybe they are in the large box full of newpapers that it came in. It doesn't look too hard to put together, however, and if I skip the finish and the headstock, it may only take 20 minutes <G>

It looks like a great deal for $125.

[tracy]

Could you post where you got this kit? Also, if anyone else out there knows of good electric mando kits, could you post what they are and where to get them. Thank!

Good luck with your kit. I'm sorry I can help you with you question. After you finish building your kit, pleas let us know how things went building it. Also, it be nice if you could give us feed back what you think of the kit as well as the finished mando.

I currently attemting to build a electric mando from scratch, except for the neck. I do not have great confidence in it truning out very good and am already starting to look at electric mando kits for a 2nd try. Any feedback you can give on your experence with your kit building would be helpfull.

Thanks!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[mikeyes]

You can get it at International Violin (http://www.internationalviolin.com/itemdrilldown.cfm?category=UNFIN&expanded=13%2C31%2C4%2C44%2C6%2C69%2C75%2C79&stype=cat&item=EMK2) and according to the literature it was designed by Ken Wise of IV for Saga. #The "finish" is a sealer to keep moisture out according to Saga literature.

[Mike Crocker]

Can't tell from the picture, is the body sculpted for the tummy and arm? It might look nice bound like a Tele Custom or my Thinline...maybe with faux tortoise.

Peace, Mooh.

[mikeyes]

Not sculpted, but that shouldn't be too hard to do.

[tracy]

Mike,

I just ordered the kit from International Violin Co.

It was on sale for $125.00 with shipping being only $11.00. I figured for that price, I would give the kit a try myself. International Violin Co. (http://www.internationalviolin.com/itemdrilldown.cfm?expanded=22%2C26%2C29%2C4%2C59%2 C75&stype=sim&ssearch=EMK2%20%20&itemsperpage=25&CFID=249360&CFTOKEN=18217858&item=EMK2)

Thanks For Directing Me To Their Site!

I would like to make an 8 sring version of this. After building this one, I just might order another and try to make a new 8 string neck for it.

I didn't understand the question you asked when you started this thred. Now that I have ordered this kit, I am now very currious just what it is you are asking. Could you explain a little more on just what it is you are asking?

Tracy

[Mike Crocker]

Yeah, I figure to get the general contours from a Strat, adjust them to scale, and go to it with a belt sander, then finish sand. Mooh.

[mikeyes]

Tracy,

There was no question other than had anyone made one yet. When the acoustic kit came out there were a lot of comments on the quality of the kit, how to put it together, and ways to modify it. I'm hoping the same will occur here with the electric kit... or at least pictures will be put up.

For an extra $20-70 the pickups can be changed, there will probably be attempts at changing the electronics, and plenty of wild and wacky changes in the headstock and finish.

The advantage is that it is very inexpensive to own a decent electric mandolin with this kit and you learn a lot about setup in the process.

Back to my belt sander, bandsaw and spray paint.

[thistle3585]

Mike,
Since you are the first to build one, then you need to be the one to take photos and create the instructions. It all rests on your shoulders now. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[violin2233]

Please let me know who needs instructions. I am sorry but some instructions were left out by mistake. i will be happy to send them. Yes, Saga was the maker. I am working with many makers for kits and I hope to bring good news about other kits in the future.

[John Flynn]

I would like to make an 8 sring version of this. After building this one, I just might order another and try to make a new 8 string neck for it.
It looks to me like you wouldn't even need to make a new neck. Couldn't you just drill out the headstock with four more peg holes, add an extra set of tuners and modify the nut or cut a new one? Any thoughts? Would the neck handle the extra tension? Does it have a truss rod? Does it need one?

Also what is the nut width on this kit?

[Ken Sager]

Here's a novel idea, why not build the 4-string and play the snot out of it?

What a great idea, I think I'll do it!

[violin2233]

The nut width is 28.5mm1 3/16 inch. You can re-groove the compensated bridge and plug up the holes and make a traditional type head stock. I may do this myself but WAIT! I ned to finish the 2 A model that I have been in the middle of doing for moths now!. Get the flat wound strings to make this mandolin sound at its best.

[violin2233]

I really should proof read my posts! I am not a bad speller LOL.. The strings that I was talking about are the Labella MF20 Flat wound strings.

[mikeyes]

I'm stymied by the lack of instructions. There are several parts that are not obvious or wrong (three shrink tubes, an extra blue wire with the plug-in do-hickey which I suspect should be soldered on somewhere, three screws that look like they go on the tailpiece but are too small, the string holder thingy is missing a screw, some of the holes are slightly out of place) and there is some fitting needed (the pickguard needs to be cut back a little as it interferes with the placement of the neck.)

I have been working on it for about three hours now, mostly trying to figure out what to do with the electronics which I suspect have a broken wire and I don't know the first thing about it.

The woodworking part is fairly easy. I drew a shortened Fender style headstock (pictures soon) on a cardboard template and transfered it to the headstock. I cut it with my band saw, smoothed it out with my belt sander and finished up with files and sandpaper. This took about 25 minutes. I then sanded the instrument with 120 grit and then 240 grit to get rid of the sealer and to take out the scratches. I could have used my orbital sander for this, but hand sanding went very well. Then, since I was in a hurry to finish the project, I used a Behelen product calle Woodturner's Finish which dries almost instantly and did two coats of that. I polished with auto scratch remover and waxed it (not the neck) to give it that cheap early Fender look. When I build another of these I will probably paint it red.

My only problems come from the (possible) incompleteness of the parts (the three screws must go somewhere. And I can't find the screws that put the plug-in dohickey in, either that or there are no screws for the endpins. Lucky for me that I have tons of screws. Also, that broken blue wire bothers me. If I knew where it is supposed to be soldered in, I would do it.

In spite of these problems (Ken, I will email you with my address for the instructions) it is a very nice kit and should sound at least as good as the Kentucky 8 string electric.

[mikeyes]

Here is the start of my project. Sorry about the picture quality.

[mikeyes]

OK, I figured out that the blue wire goes to the bridge as a ground (this from my Dan Erlewine book on repairs) and the shrink wrap covers the connections so they don't short out. Now to figure out the screw situation and I should have a working mandolin.

[mikeyes]

Finally done!

It's too late to play it in the house (and it is snowing outside) but I did manage to run it through my little cigarrete box amplifier and it works. Both the tone and volume knobs work fine, so the blue ground wire that goes to the bridge is important.

It needs a lot of setup. I worked for an hour on the nut and it is still not as good as it can get. The intonation needs a little work, but that will be for the morning. I realize that I can lower the action at the bridge by drilling the holes it sets in a little deeper. It is a little high at the lowest setting right now, but that is not a problem. I will play with the height of the lipstick pickup in the AM when I have access to a real amp.

All the screws were there, I just needed to plug the holes for the tailpiece and redrill them with a pin vise/drill and a small bit I have for putting in railroad tracks/banjo fifth string capos.

All in all a very easy project once I figured out what to do. It works, it looks good and it needs a lot of set-up. It is a lot cheaper than the Mandobird while comparable in feel and (so far) sound. The only special tools I used were nut files that I already had from the acoustic mandolin and my banjo making. I recommend this kit to anyone who wants to make and/or play an electric mandolin. I'd rate it a 3/10 on the difficulty scale. A novice to woodworking could do it easily.

[mikeyes]

I played it on a real amp this AM. Volume and tone controls work as expected and it seems to be OK except for a hum that occurs (60 Htz?) that may be due to the cheap pickup or tha fact that I have the blue wire (which is shown attached to the plug in hicky on the picture) attached to the bridge. I will need a little help here.

I still need to lower the action at the nut some but that will be my project while I watch the ball game today.

[clarksavage]

60 Hz hum, the bane of electronics... 90% of the time it is a poor ground return somewhere. Check the cable, the connector (do you have a good meter to check continuity and DC resistance?) If the blue wire is ground it may need to be right there at the plug.

I would also check that the wiring is neat - rerouting wires can often lessen some of the AC bleed (the 60 Hz hum), I'd even try this with the electronics in my lap, move things around to see what increases/decreases hum.

I'd bet on a bad ground in your cable, though.

[mikeyes]

I changed the nut to a bone nut and changed strings to a half set of the Labella Jazz Strings (flatwounds 36-10) and took the instrument to our local music store. I played it on a Fender Champion 300 (30 watts, lots of effects) and it was, well, great. I haven't played electrically since the early '60s (when I owned both a tele and a mandocaster and sold them for nothing to buy a banjo) and it was a lot of fun. This one will go to a local blues jam one of these days.

The hum is gone, I changed the blue (probably ground) wire and made sure it was solidly connected. Whoever solders these things together must use a pound or so for each instrument <G> so I resoldered the blue wire. No more hum.

This is a much better mandolin than the Mandobird, possibly because it is well set up, but it just looks better too.

[Bill Snyder]

Where is the picture of the finished project? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mikeyes]

Here is the finished product. Plays purty <G>

[mikeyes]

And the headstock. Not very original but it goes with the body.

[mad dawg]

Looking good Mike!

BTW, what is the neck width at the nut? (Just wondering if there is room to convert it to a five string.)

[mikeyes]

I measured the same as Ken Wise, an inch and three sixteenths or about 29 mm. The five string conversion would involve a new tailpiece and a new bridge but it could be done, I suppose (it would be tight.) BTW, I am using the Mandobird strings from Ted E. at Jazzmandolin now (actually I made a set up after realizing that a .009 E worked better.) I am going to enclose the cavity in copper foil and add sheilded wiring as my next step. My son apparently needs this instrument so I may have to make another. <G>

[John Flynn]

I am going to enclose the cavity in copper foil and add sheilded wiring as my next step.
Mike, could you explain that? I know very little about electric instrument wiring, so I am not following what you mean there and I am very interested in every aspect of this. What cavity? Add shielded wiring where? Why?

[Bill Snyder]

Regarding the five string conversion - would the pickup accommodate a fifth string?

[mikeyes]

All I know is what I read, but I get a 60 Htz hum on my cheap amp (but not on better amps) which is probably from the electronics in the instrument. #When you take the pickguard off, there is a routed cavity designed to take all the wires. #In order to shield the wiring and the electronics (in order to keep the 60 Htz radio frequencies contained) you have to enclose it in a Faraday cage which can be made from any conductive metal or metal containing paint as long as it is grounded. #The easiest thing to do is to use Nickel paint from Stew-Mac, but it is toxic and you have to figure out a way to ground it (a brass plug in the wood with a wire to the jack will suffice, I think)and to make sure that the top -which is the bottom of the pickguard - is connected to the rest of the cage. #I am using copper foil which I can get from Stew-Mac or the local crafts shop as it is used in stained glass making too. #I just have to make sure that the foil strips are all connected to each other and grounded.


Right now I have the ground on the bridge, but I will probably reground it on the jack. #Also, any long wire (over half an inch) is better off if it is shielded wire which I can get at Radio Shack.

All these electronics are ancient in design, at least 50, and more like 70 years old in concept. #There are plenty of sources for information scattered on the net and several books available. (Look at the Stew-Mac site.)

As for the pickup, I don't know if it is a blade type or a P4 (4 separate poles like a bass guitar) type and I am not going to find out right now as apparently it is an invitation to disaster to take them apart. #The other solution is to go to a site that sells bass pickups and replace it with a 5 string bass unit. #The wiring is very simple and you just replace one for one. #On the other hand, if it is a blade type, it should accomodate a fifth string.

[thistle3585]

Mike,
I'm confused on your statement about grounding to the jack. I ground everything including the bridge. Do you mean you are going to run the bridge ground directly to the jack?

[mikeyes]

No, right now I have the blue wire run throught the hole from the cavity to the bridge (this is the way the Fenders do it and is considered an alternative to the jack - the jack ground goes to the amplifier and grounds in the amplifier, I think.) I will switch that to grounding on the jack unless the instructions tell me differently (they are in the mail.)

I meant to say that I ground everything to the bridge right now. It seems to work.

[mad dawg]

I posted this question in a separate thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=31555;) regarding modifying the kit to a string-through-body design, but wanted to give it visibility in this thread as well.

[mikeyes]

It could be done, the body is just a piece of wood. I drilled the bridge posts out a little bit to lower the action at the bridge with no problem. Basswood is a "soft" hardwood (I wonder where they get the wood as Basswood is a North American wood, plentiful, but that is a long way to travel and back for a cheap electric mandolin. I prefer to think of it as Chinese mystery wood.)

It sounds like you got good advice on the other thread.

[mikeyes]

I am finally getting the electronics part down. Yesterday I received the "Wiring a Fender Guitar" video from Stew-Mac that made things a little clearer for me. I have grounded both the bridge and the volume pot (and by extension the rest of the electronics) correctly. Now I am going to enclose the electronics in a copper foil Faraday cage by cutting out the foil to surround the electronics cavity. I have to make sure that each piece of copper foil is touching (each other) and that the overall cage is grounded. This is fairly easy to do (although the cutting and trying is a pain) and can be tested with a multi-meter set on "continuity" by placing the probes on separate parts of the foil cage to see if they are connected and grounded.

One of the tricks shown was to use an excess amount of foil on the lower cavity and overlap it on the top so the foil placed on the underside of the pickguard will touch and make a connection. Also you should overlap each piece and even solder them together for a good fit. Any long wires should either be wrapped in the foil (and touching the cage) or should be a shielded wire that is grounded. This will be my weekend project.

Once this is done, I will probably have to buy another one and put two pickups on or mess with the electronics somehow. Most of it is very old technology and fairly simple to do providing you remember what goes where and know what you are trying to achieve. Stew-Mac has wiring kits for all this but a trip to Radio Shack and/or the net will help you find a lot of the same stuff cheaper. You can even get the pickguard material and make your own with the old one as a template. This way you can make any wild and wacky setup you want.

[mikeyes]

The instructions arrived yesterday and it turns out that I did exactly as described. Some of the publicity photos show the wrong wiring. Basically the instructions are as follows:

1) Unpack and make sure all the parts are there. There will be free blue wire with a bayonet fitting on one end.

2)Go to the auto shop and choose any pleasing acrylic color (and a can of Clear Coat) for the body of the mandolin. Paint the body (not the neck) with the color. Use two separate coats. Finish with Clear Coat. Note there is no sanding as there is a sealer already present.

3) Shape the headstock (this is out of synch from the instructions but is the correct thing to do) but don't use a copyrighted shape <G>

4) Finish the neck with Clear Coat.

5) Screw in the Jack.

6) Assemble the pickguard. White to white, black to black, blue to blue, use the shrink tubing to cover the connections. The blue wire is threaded through the little hole to the bridge post. Strip the wire a little so it will contact the post.

7) Screw in the neck. You may have to cut back the pickguard a little, I used a round file. Then screw in the pickguard after making sure that the holes align. You may have to shim the neck later, but I didn't.

8)Put in the tuners and the string guide. Attach the tailpiece and strap buttons. Put on the bridge.

9) Set up the instrument. This takes the longest to do as you have to adjust the nut and intonation (at the bridge) and make sure the angle of the neck is OK. There is a truss rod and you can adjust that too.

10) Not in the instructions, but if you want to shield the instrument, get a shielding kit from Stew-mac (or make up your own from Radio Shack and a hobby shop - Copper tape, multimeter with continuity reading, patience, instructions free from Stew-Mac.)


All in all and easy project, probably three hours or so if you can use a band saw. The result is a pleasing easy to play instrument that responds to good setup. I moved the lipstick pickup to within an eighth inch of the E string (3/16" of the G string) and the sound works well with a variety of amps. Read the instructions first.

[WireBoy]

Hello mikeyes,
# since you have a completed elctric IV in hand. #could you please measure for us the string spacing at the nut? and what is the nut width? #if it fits my fingers, this might be fun project...

[mikeyes]

Eric,

The nut is 29 mm wide, but I am out of town today and won't be back till monday for the other measurements. You can make the string spacing anything you want, however, as tthe nut is barely scored for the strings and is nowhere deep enough to be correct. I replaced the nut with a bone nut anyway.

[blueglassband]

who manufactured your bridge?
bgb

[tracy]

Hi, I resently started building this same kit. I'm really pleased with it.

I started another topic asking a question about adding 4 more tuner holes to convert this kit to 8 strings. Thought I would post a link to it here. If anyone can help with my question it would be great!

Link to posted Question about Tuner Holds for this kit. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=32038)

Thanks
Tracy
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[WireBoy]

I don't see the Electric mando kit on the IV www site. #is it no longer available?

[tracy]

Eric,
Sorry about the link. I will check into into it and repost the link when I figure out what is going on. They should still be selling these kits. Just Last week I exchanged a few emails with Ken and in one of them, he told me that they had ordered several more of these kits from the factory in China and were on their way.

Tracy

[tracy]

Sorry about the link to International Violin.

I'm still checking into why it has stopped linking to the IV Electric Mandolin Kit on their site. I can't seem to find it again on their site. As soon as I figure out what is up with this, I will post it.

Ken, if you see this post, maybe you can help us out.

Tracy

[arbarnhart]

I don't want to take business away from IV, but I have been seeing the kit pop up on eBay lately for about the same price, so if you gotta have it now, you can look there. NFI. I was looking for a kit of just the electronics

[tracy]

Hi All,

Just passing along this to you.

This is concerning the Missing "Saga Electric IV kit" on the International Violin, (IV), web page.

Some have had trouble finding this kit on the IV web page and are wondering if they still are selling the kit.

To answer the question, Yes, they are still selling the kit.

I just checked with ken and he emailed me this message back and asked me to pass it along.


"We are out but we have more coming in I hope in 2-3 weeks. We will have them and if they want to reserve one they can email me personally. Please let them know that and also there are only a limited amount due in. Only 30 total. Thanks for your help!!! :-)
Ken"

Here Is Ken's Email Address: kwise@internationalviolin.com


International Violin Co. Main Web Page (http://www.internationalviolin.com/)

Thanks
Tracy

[Strange1]

Nice looking mando. Favors my 1959 Fender (Mandocaster). Altho when I got it new it was just called a 4 string electirc mandolin. I changed the tuners out some yrs back. Otherwise the rest is stock, incl the pickup. I use fender flat wounds on it forgot the guage.

Jack