Differences real and/or imagined (LONG)

[timacn]

I've been reading a lot of mandolin cafe posts lately and playing a lot of mandolins. I've been wondering: #how much of the perceived superiority of one instrument over another is real and how much of it is based on reputation earned decades ago, "legend," advertising, etc?

Can't a "cheap" instrument be really good? #(wasn't Flatiron originally supposed to be Gibson's "economical line? Didn't Monroe love Stradolins?) #Can't a Pac Rim instrument outshine one from some bastion of American luthiery?

Some people on another board (banjo board) were horrified at reports that allegedly one revered "American" banjo company is actually using parts made in The Czech Republic and necks from a third party manufacturer. #But does it really make a difference?

If a Kentucky or a Gold Tone or a Michael Kelley or an Eastman uses basically the same woods and the same bracing patterns and quality hardware, shouldn't the sound be pretty much the same?

They say a can of supermarket brand green peas is exactly the same as a can of premium brand green peas. #A pea is a pea is a pea. #I've played plywood Nippon Gakki Yamaha guitars that sounded as good as premium brand American sold wood instruments.

Isn't every mandolin individual unto itself? #Can't a "prestigious" American mandolin sound bad and a "disrespected" Pac Rim instrument sound good?

Are we all just being manipulated by hype?

[recklessmando]

I'm sure you are correct. After all, a Yugo and a Cadillac have essentially the same parts.

[Stephen Perry]

A complicating factor is that mandolin players seek greatly different things in instruments, but tend to qualify instruments as "good" or "bad" based on their personal taste. Someone who mainly hits strong chop chords and only plays vigorously won't notice that the volume disappears with medium or light pick pressure and won't care about sustain. Thus some types of players think X is the best, while others insist they're nuts and Y is better.

You refer to "basic sound quality." Of course all the mandolins sound about the same really. As compared to a bassoon or a violin.

Much of the intense scrutiny seems to go to response, ease of playability, and subtle aspects of tone. These are very important if you happen to think so. I think they are.

Fairly modestly priced instruments can be very good if properly set up. Some more expensive instruments I can't get working. Some very expensive instruments give that extra 5% that gives one goosebumps.

[Eugene]

In part. #Instruments of quality are, in general, pricier than those that are not. #Some hurried mass production will use greenish wood, which will be notoriously unstable over time. #Mass production also favors fast and easy application of finish, which favors a rather heavy application and can dampen tone. #Hand applied ornamentation takes time, and the time of a professional luthier should cost money. #Etc. #Frankly (and generally, with occasional exception), junky instruments with laminated soundboards, overly heavy synthetic finishes sound thin-toned and junky. #There are ways to shop quality cheaply, however (e.g., develop a taste for bowlbacks).

That said, once a level of quality is reached, value becomes more a qualitative than quantitative function. #Value is determined by supply and demand. #If the world at large values and demands rather scarce Loar-signed F-5 mandolins more than Gerhardt Unicorn A styles, the Loar F-5 will be more valuable independent of the functionality as a musical tool.

[J. Mark Lane]

There are people who will use the "same" kinds of materials, paints, brushes, etc. and paint amazingly accurate copies of a van Gogh. Still, someone who really knows art can tell the difference.

If you can't tell the difference, you may as well have the copy.

Mark

[glauber]

I'd rather never have a real Van Gogh at home. Think of the insurance headache. A good reproduction does the job just as nicely.

[glauber]

once a level of quality is reached, value becomes more a qualitative than quantitative function. Value is determined by supply and demand.
I also think this is true.

Say i drive a 1995 Ford Escort (i'm not saying that i do, but i might! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ). As long as set up properly and kept in good maintenance, it takes me to work every day nicely with no fuss, costs me comparatively less to insure than a Jaguar, uses less fuel.

The Jaguar, on the other hand, will likely have trouble in the Chicago winter, will cost a lot to insure, will use a lot more fuel, will cost a lot more to maintain... but it sure works a lot better when you want to pick up chicks! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Play on. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Eugene]

I'd rather never have a real Van Gogh at home. Think of the insurance headache. A good reproduction does the job just as nicely.
However, a good reproduction is very different than the kind of reproduction I could generate. There still is a difference between quality and otherwise...but the savvy shopper can still get quality relatively cheaply in foresaking the collectability aspect.

[sunburst]

how much of the perceived superiority of one instrument over another is real and how much of it is based on reputation earned decades ago, "legend," advertising, etc?

There is, obviously, some of that at work. How much?
Hard to say.



Can't a "cheap" instrument be really good? (wasn't Flatiron originally supposed to be Gibson's "economical line?

Flatiron started as a totally separate company, when
Gibson was making some of the worst mandolins of their
history. Flatiron was later bought by gibson, and,
at that time, started making about an equal number
of Flatiron and Gibson mandolins, of about the same
quality.



Didn't Monroe love Stradolins?)

I don't know.



Can't a Pac Rim instrument outshine one from some bastion of American luthiery?

It can happen. As Steve said, it is very subjective, and
different people have very different ideas of what is
and isn't good.



Some people on another board (banjo board) were horrified at reports that allegedly one revered "American" banjo company is actually using parts made in The Czech Republic and necks from a third party manufacturer. But does it really make a difference?

Maybe, maybe not. Quality control can be more difficult
when everything is not made "in house". As long as
quality is good, things are fine. If there is a quality
problem, it can be harder to fix, and take a lot longer
if the manufacturing is being done far away.



If a Kentucky or a Gold Tone or a Michael Kelley or an Eastman uses basically the same woods and the same bracing patterns and quality hardware, shouldn't the sound be pretty much the same?

Yes, if they arch and graduate the top and back the
same, carve the necks the same, joint the neck and body
the same, install the frets and hardware the same,
apply a good finish the same, etc.
In fact, you aren't likely to find the same quality of
wood, hardware, finish, and workmanship is less
expensive instruments as in good ones.



Isn't every mandolin individual unto itself? Can't a "prestigious" American mandolin sound bad and a "disrespected" Pac Rim instrument sound good?

Yes, but again, what sounds good to one might not sound
good to another.



Are we all just being manipulated by hype?

If we let ourselves.

[timacn]

Thanks for all the thoughtful input to my question.

The coffee hadn't started working when I made my original post: #I wasn't writing about comparing imported mandolins to other imported mandolins but rather to more prestigious American mandolins.

I confess that beauty is in the ear of the beholder. #I can hear real differences between my American banjos and imports and between my American flat top and imports. #I think I don't quite have my "mandolin ears" calibrated to detect subtleties between instruments. #My Kentucky 380S is still sounding pretty good to me and holding its own against some much more expensive competition.

[Greenmando]

Can't a "cheap" instrument be really good? #(wasn't Flatiron originally supposed to be Gibson's "economical line?) #

Some people on another board (banjo board) were horrified at reports that allegedly one revered "American" banjo company is actually using parts made in The Czech Republic and necks from a third party manufacturer. #But does it really make a difference?

If a Kentucky or a Gold Tone or a Michael Kelley or an Eastman uses basically the same woods and the same bracing patterns and quality hardware, shouldn't the sound be pretty much the same?

They say a can of supermarket brand green peas is exactly the same as a can of premium brand green peas. #A pea is a pea is a pea. #I've played plywood Nippon Gakki Yamaha guitars that sounded as good as premium brand American sold wood instruments.
Flatiron was the competition making a better mandolin than Gibson at the time. It was easier to buy out the competition than compete.
A builder made a mandolin once out of pallet wood to show the sound is more built in from the builder and not the wood. Or maybe it was a guitar, but the idea is the same.

American made Harley's have parts made in Mexico and Japan now. B**jo players frighten easily.

For many players the cheap mandolin will sound the same. The quality shows when a pro pushes the mando and it delivers. Kind of like cheap car speakers, sound great in the showroom, but when you crank up the music and the speakers crack up - you get better speakers.

Mandolins and guitars are like apples and oranges.
But the Japanese made mandos have gained a lot of respect.
I prefer fresh peas over canned peas. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Celtic Saguaro]

It's all relative.

I bought a honey of Harmony Monterrey for $80 back in the 1970's and in fact did have people come to my apartment door and ask me to keep the door open so they could hear me practice, flubs and all. #You hear stories here at the Cafe about wives wanting to throw their husbands out on the street for practicing their multi-thousand dollar instruments in the same house with them.

It's not that that old Harmony was ever as good any Gibson. #But the audience it had happened to appreciate it.

Pete Seeger once said it isn't the instrument, but the player that makes music sound great. #At times I think it's neither. It's the audience. #If you the player are the only audience, then whatever sounds best to you is best. #If for you that means it has to be an F-5 Loar, fine. If for you it's an e-bay special some of the rest of us would call a disgraceful pile of trash, that's fine, too. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dfyngravity]

*When I say custom, lets include those like Gibson, Rigel and such too, not only just small time custom builders.

Here's my feeling about the price tag in regards to brand new mandolins, not used. You first have to look at who made the mandolin and the style(F vs. A/Carved vs. Flattop) of the mandolin and then what is a cheap mandolin for your budget(whether is be a $500 or a $5k mandolin). Lets use a carved F5 mandolin since that seems to be the most popular of choice. The difference in overall sound between a mass built pac-rim F5 and a custom built F5 can be rather large. Yes, sometimes you might find a pac-rim that is a great sounding and playing mandolin and yes sometimes to find a custom F5 that just doesn't hold water, but you will find that the custom built mandolin will be a better sounding and playing mandolin an overwhelming majority of the time. The difference is that with a custom you have someone, usually one person with better building skills using better material and spending a far great amount of time building the mandolin that a pac-rim. They have a finely crafted skill and know exactly what it takes to build a top notch sounding mandolin from stage one of carving all the way to apply the finish. Every step counts and for the most part pac-rim builders don't have to time to spend.

However, once you get out of the range of comparing pac-rim mandolins and you start comparing lower priced customs to higher priced customs you will find the difference to be a lot of the time minimal. If you are comparing a $5k custom to a $15-25k custom you will find that most of the time that the are both awesome mandolins in all regards and IMHO you will find that it's merely which one has the sound you are looking for.

So when comparing price tags it all depends on which price ranges you are comparing and builders. A $500 pac- rim F5 compared to a $5k custom F5 you will find huge differences, but when comparing a $5k custom F5 to a $15k custom F5 it is much harder to find differences that make one far better than the other.

[Stephen Perry]

Rather than import v. non-import, I prefere to classify into individually made (many, low production), small shop production (luthiers making in teams under a master), and factory (workers off the street trained to do an operation, industrial type).

Small shops usually just do a few things and sell under their own name, or perhaps make a small line for another's market as well as their own. A guitar company may make a few mandolins for a mandolin seller with an idea of exactly what he or she wants.

In contrast, the factory makes whatever the customer wants. We make musical instruments. You want mandolins? We can have our mandolin line do yours! Very different setting.

In my limited experience, I've not had a factory mandolin pass through that met the response, dynamic range, and tone quality standards I like. I suspect most of these factory mandolins come from the same couple of places.

The small shop mandolins (e.g. Gibson, Weber) do much better to my hands and ears.

The individually made instruments range from magical to merely "OK." As in violins!

So I'd tend to rephrase the question as "Can't a factory instrument outshine or at least equal the performance of the well known small shop and individually made instruments."

I'd answer that with a firm "maybe." But I haven't observed it. Even after extensive work on the factory instrument. The factory instruments seem to be built "to the numbers" and rather generous in the amount of wood.

[357mag]

I just got back from a rather large music store. I had to put one of my MKs in for repair.(long story).
They had a used D`Angelica jazz guitar there that was 4 Grand.They also had a new Epiphone Emporer Regent jazz guitar for 749.00. Same configuration.
If I could afford the D`Angelico, I would have bought it. If the D`Angelico was 749.00, I would have bought the Epiphone.The Epiphone played better.
Im gonna get the Epiphone anyway as soon as I come up with 749.00 bucks. But does anybody see my point?

[Bob DeVellis]

I think there are both real and illusory differences at work.

Good craftsmanship goes a very long way toward quality. Materials are mostly inexpensive, although price differences in tuners can be very substantial and really cheap tuners can make an instrument a misery to play.

When I pick up mandolins, I have basically one of three reactions: (1) piece of junk, (2) respectable instrument, and (3) WOW! Response #1 is usually from playing either a very inexpensive instrument or a very poorly set up instrument (with a lot of overlap in those two categories). I've had response #2 to mandolins priced from a few hundred to several thousand dollars. That doesn't mean that a $200 mandolin and an $8000 mandolin are the same, but that they can (not always, though) strike me as serviceable without being spectacular. Played back-to-back, some of these Category 2 instruments would clearly outshine others but none (by definition) are so bad as to be junky or so good as to be awe-inspiring. If forced to, I could certainly sub-divide this middle category into several levels and I suspect that if I did, the higher ranked instruments on average would be the more expensive ones. The WOW category has included instruments from around $1,000 to over $10,000. These have been instruments that exceeded my expectation of what a mandolin should be or do. I've never had this experience with a cheap, cookie-cutter instrument and I've failed to have it with some pretty darn expensive ones. Not every $10,000 mandolin automatically gets a WOW. So, my unscientific experiment suggests to me that there is some relationship between cost and quality as I perceive it, but with lots of overlap.

I can't say how much of the above is real vs illusory but some clearly illusory differences also exist. Some instruments have a look or a brand name or a price tag that evoke admiration beyond what that instrument can deliver as a musical tool, at least in my opinion. In contrast, some have a look or a brand name or a price tag that evoke dismissiveness that's not in keeping with what the instrument can deliver as a musical tool.

There's a perceptual principle that suggests that there is an ideal level of familiarity. Something that is too familiar or not familiar enough will be less interesting than something that falls within a relatively narrow optimal band. If I play an instrument that feels and plays exactly like the one I have, why should I see it as better? If I play one that is so unlike what I have that I can't relate to it as doing the job I want it to do, then why would I like it? I think this is why players of, say, bluegrass instruments would never consider even a fantastic bowlback to hold a candle to any decent F-style and vice versa.

If Monroe loved Stradolins, it might be because he had some sentimental attachment to one, it was discernably different from what he usually played, and it struck a responsive chord (pun intended) when he renewed his acquaintance with it.

So, cheap can be good and expensive can be bad, but cheap is more likely to be bad and expensive is more likely to be good. More experience probably makes the differences more obvious for most people. But ultimately, we each define "good" and "bad" for ourselves and if our perceptions hold, we should trust them and be happy with our choices.

[howbahmando]

<...>
Didn't Monroe love Stradolins? #<...>
I've seen a quote something like "that's a pretty good mandolin for the money"

So, "love" seems a bit strong.

On the other hand, from Mr Bill, that's pretty close to a rave. So, maybe yes.

[Dan'l Terry]

Well I may be stepping into some deep dawgdo here, but as former advertising professor who studied market valuation variables while working on post grad work, I'll reveal a secret that some will take offense at.

Much of the value of a particular mandolin brand or model has next to nothing to do with it's sonic quality or manufacturing superiority.

What drives the market to a greater extent is "brand comfort" and "celebrity association". The Loar mandolin is considered great more for the association with Bill Monroe than any rationale and excuse buyers and players attach to it to justify paying the big bucks. If Monroe had instead chosen a Washburn that would be the Gold standard today and Loars would sell for $300 on a good day on ebay.

Look at how many threads are on here about the players, like Thile, who inherently drive up the price and sales of the instruments they choose to play.

And it's why the larger companies who can afford it BUY ARTIST ENDORSEMENT contracts for pretty big bucks. For players it's hard to face the truth of the underlying reasons we are attracted to a particular model because it's not necessarily logical or justifiable.

Regardless it's known by the researchers who study this stuff and the manufacturers largely know it too. It's just human nature to want to play what one's heroes play. It's greatness by association.

That's why a 1967 Hofner bass is worth a lousy $900 and a '62 can go as high as $10,000. Simply because a legendary player used one when people who were affected by the music made emotional attachments in their own formative years. It's not bad or good. It's just the way our minds and emotions work in the market.

javascript:emoticon('http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif')

[Flowerpot]

There's also the potential difference of longevity.

How much care was taken in selecting the wood for the neck? Under what conditions was the wood stored? How meticulous was the fitting of the neck-body joint? Is the top dead-on quarter sawn, or reasonably close? How well done is the "fit" part of "fit and finish"?

The level of craftsmanship and experience in the builder can have a big influence over what problems may develop 5, 10, 15 years down the line. Necks can twist. Tops can sink, taking the fingerboard extension down with them. A truss rod can work well or work marginally. Side ribs can separate from the top or back. F holes crack. A mandolin can respond wildly to environmental changes. The better built instruments (on average) will stay stable and playable for decades on end. In some cases, the jury is still out with respect to a lot of the new builders, but people notice the ones who pay careful regard to precision fitting and wood selection.

It may be the case too that the companies doing more budget-minded construction tend to over-build strengthwise to avoid warranty problems (in the 70's, G... was guilty of this). You sacrifice sound for longevity. And I suspect that some individual luthiers have done the opposite, that is, built very light to get a powerhouse sound right out of the box, but never knowing how many years the thing will last, and not knowing if the tone will degrade instead of improve over the years. I have played some which I would almost wager will have some problems down the line, but I could be wrong. (The only way to "know" what will happen 70 years from now is to build using time-proven techniques and specs, and try not to deviate too far from the golden standard set by the ones which have lasted a very long time.)

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that some differences are not about what the mandolin IS, but what it will be 50 years from now. There's added value for the ones which are likely to be in great playable shape and which sound much better than when they were new.

[Big Joe]

The other element not explained is ear experience. Many beginner mandolin players cannot tell the difference from a pac-rim mandolin and a high end Gibson or Gilchrist, or (insert your favorite here) brand. Their ear has not developed the nuances of tone that experience with the various instruments gives. The reason most players migrate up the ladder as far as they can is they begin to hear the difference and when they do it motivates them to move up to a better sounding and playing instrument. If budget were not an issue and all mandolins were the same price, I suspect we would see a very similar spreading of the instruments. Those who are on the early days of mandolin may take the lower end of the line and those who have more experience would chose the better lines. Yes. There is a difference in the quality of the instrument in many many ways. There is a difference in the tone in many many ways. Can everyone hear or understand that difference? Of course not. That is why they are happy with what they have. There is a reason the high priced mandolins bring what they do. It is not just the name. It is the quality, the tone, the reputation, and the percieved value over a period of time.

If you cannot tell the difference, then be happy with what sounds good to you. When you are ready to move up you will know because you will begin hearing the difference. MAS is more than just boredom and name brand. The best of the best are fairly rare and not everyone will ever have one. There are not enough in existence for all to have one. However, you will rise to the level of your ear and your pocket book can both live with. Not everyone would be happy with an upper end mandolin for any of several reasons. Maybe using a mandolin worth that much would make them nervous and they would not play it out. Maybe they are happy with the tone of a mandolin at a lesser point and the difference is not worth the investment to them. Maybe they just don't want one because they just don't want one. Maybe they have other priorities for their money than an expensive mandolin. However, for those that do want, can afford, and can hear the difference, it is worth every penny spent and the joy they bring is worth the effort to obtain something out of the ordinary. Lot's of people are happy in a metro, but I personally like the Suburban. Both get you there, but the ride is sure a lot different!!!

[Rick Crenshaw]

I agree with BigJoe's post, but I'll add one more insight into what BigJoe has posted. #As a relatively new mandolin player (2 years) but as an experienced guitar player, you do have to go through 'ear training' on tone, regardless of your style of play and musical preferences. #Here's what I'll add:

As you gain experience you will be able to hear the tone that's not yet 'opened' up in new mandolins. #Overbuilt shop mandolins will likely change tone quality very little over time simply due to the fact that they are, (as Steve put it) 'generous' with the wood and (I'll add) finish. #More experienced ears can hear what tones are 'hiding' in a new mandolin and might be expected to 'come out' over time through play and changes in quality wood over time. #This is trickier business, but many, many players have experienced that 'samadhi' or instant revelation of tonal changes after playing an instrument for some time. #I've picked up a guitar that I had for months and one day it just seemed to have matured and sounded more open and had that vintage tone. Playing (especially with my kind of bluegrass attack) on a wooden instrument sometimes brings changes quickly.

When new players are comparing PacRims to new Gibsons or Webers, understand that the tonal differences will likely only become exponentially greater over time as the mandolins mature and your ear 'tunes up'. I have personally experienced these changes in two Yellowstones I know. Bought new, I was not that impressed. A year or two later, I thought they sounded very good.

So take the good advice given here. Buy what you like and can afford. Your ear WILL change. Be ready to move up when it does. Hint: It's called MAS and you WILL get it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[red7flag]

I had a music party and the great guitar player, Robert Bowen (not sure about the spelling) was there and everybody had him play their axes. My friend daughter had him play her brand new $150 Epiphone and he made it sing and in his hands it sounded like a prewar. Parenthetically, the instrument went back to sounding ordinary when the rest of us played it. I also found that instruments sound better than their heritage in the soundproof trial rooms that Gibson provides at the Showcase. I will bet they will not sound as good at home. This is not to knock their product in any way, it is a great way to demonstrate their product in the best light. When I hear something like the first Tone Poems, I have a hard time dicerning which instrument is which, they all sound like Tony Rice and David Grisman. But there are some instruments that sing. And in the hands of a master, the master is able to bring out that amazing tone. I am blessed to have a great collection of banjos, guitars and mandolins. On my best days, I feel like I can get them to sing also. I just wish that was everyday.\
Tony

[mandowilli]

Good post Big Joe.

There a too many variables that always arise in these discussions that make it impossible to reach any kind of a consensus.

If you like it, and you can afford it, and your hero has one, then get it. And to hell with all of the rest of it!

[thekingprawn]

Either the tonal difference in mandolins is very subtle, or we are swayed by market influence more than we think. Let me explain. I was at a music store playing guitars before I left on a deployment a few years ago. I played the best of everything they had on the wall. My wonderful wife got the manager to pull the all koa Tacoma (PKK-40) they had out of the glass display case. After I played it for about 5 minutes my wife (with very untrained ears) started scheming on how to buy it for me because the sound was so incredible. It was a parlor body and completely blew away every dreadnaught I had played that day. A 100% increase in price equaled a 500% increase in tone with this situation. All the guitars between $1000-$2500 had very little difference in quality beyond the asthetics. This particular guitar was about $3500 and was equal to any five guitars there. If mandolins are at all similar, then the differences in the $2000-$4000 price range should be minimal and the real jump in quality should occur at around the $6000+ range. If that giant jump in quality does not occur, then some people really are spending about $10000 for the Gibson name when they could have the same sound out of a Weber or other lesser priced mando. If I'm FOS on this, let me know.

[jasona]

Be ready to move up when it does. Hint: It's called MAS and you WILL get it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
I will add a caveat to this: don't rush upgrading. Focus on the song you're playing, not on the instrument you're playing. Its all about the music!