Crosspicking styles

[red7flag]

There are a series of articles on crosspicking on the Cafe by Mickey Cochran. He uses what I would call an alternating picking pattern dudu. In another thread it was stated categorically that crosspicking is ddu, where you run from the 3rd string to the 2nd string, then pick up on the 1st. I can see how the second approach would end up with a synchopated effect when placed in 4/4 time. I have found that that the alternating approach tends to have a more even feel. Not better, just different. I was hoping somebody could clear this up. I would like to have a good starting place before i get much further.
Tony

[John Flynn]

I don't see how anyone could defend the position that is categorically ddu. The player who is most often mentioned in conjunction with crosspicking, Jesse McReynolds, mostly did duu, with the string order being 3-1-2. Curtis Buckhannon does dud with the same string order. Also, I think it is accepted that there are different roll patterns for different effects. I do duu, occasionally alternating 3-1-2/4-1-2. It's what you can make work and what sounds good for what you are trying to do. In fact, I wouldn't even call your second 3-2-1 example "crosspicking," because you are not crossing strings. That would just be an arpeggio in my book.

[Tom C]

There are a few crosspickin patterns. I do not have mando in hand But I believe I usually use DUUDUUDU.

[Dfyngravity]

3-2-1 doesn't mean you are playing an arpeggio. An arpeggio is a broken chord, notes of a chord played consecutively instead of simutaneously.

I think traditionaly speaking Jesse McReynolds style of playing is traditional crosspicking. However, in recent times people have not really reinvented crosspicking but rather expanded the definition of crosspicking. Many people now consider crosspicking to mainly involve a constant change in string picking regardless of pick direction. A good example of this is the song called Song For A Young Queen by Chris Thile. Thile even says on his DVD that the way he plays Hop The Fence is a variation of crosspicking/string crossing yet he doesn't play it like Jesse McReynolds.

Many people will argue that unless to play exactly like Jesse McReynolds you are not crosspicking. But times to change and many things evolve. So I consider crosspicking just a Thile does, whether that is right or wrong.

[jmcgann]

My Cat Could Have Kittens In The Oven, But That Don't Make 'em Muffins! (http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html)

Maybe it is just semantics, but in my mind, alternate picking across the strings is not crosspicking, because alternate picking yields a totally different articulation. It's easier for me to think "crosspicking" when grouping notes in 3's with that ddu or duu style. It is about SOUND.

[Tom C]

Hey, I was expecting a recipe from that link. Nice description.

[James P]

"Kittens in the Oven"... isn't that usually played in Amaj?

[Tom C]

My biggest problem is speed. Crossing over the strings is that much harder. One gotsta be quick.

[howbahmando]

<...>
I think traditionaly speaking Jesse McReynolds style of playing is traditional crosspicking. However, in recent times people have not really reinvented crosspicking but rather expanded the definition of crosspicking. <...> But times to change and many things evolve. So I consider crosspicking just a Thile does, whether that is right or wrong.
It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of "expanding" a definition until it becomes meaningless.

[jmcgann]

You don't have be playing "exactly like Jesse" to be crosspicking-George Shuffler, David Grier and Tony Rice come to mind on guitar. Anyway, whatever you want to call it is fine, it's a free country, I just have a different opinion and so do many players in my generation (CUE PETE TOWNSHEND!) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

When I saw a book called "Crosspicking" that had nothing to do with actual crosspicking, I was glad I hadn't paid money for it. YMMV.

[Dfyngravity]

jmcgann, I am definitely on boat with you. I fully understand that "crosspicking" is a variation of picking which includes using DUU over a string combination such as 412, 423, 312 and so fourth. I just tend to use the word crosspicking for what I was describing because it is more that just alternate picking(DUDU), it also has to involves a repeated pattern of changing strings where you hardly ever play more that 2 consecutive notes on a single string, and because of the lack of a better word.


howbahmando, I don't think that expanding a definition a little is going to make it meaningless. Open up a dictionary and begin to count the number of words that have 2,3 and 4 definitions and some have more than 14. And there are plenty words that have multiple meanings not even closely related. So I can't see the definition becoming meaningless.

[red7flag]

The string pattern 312 can be done with and alternating picking pattern, dudu. The it is just that due to being a 3 string pattern, you have one left over, but at the second measure it will end up right. For example:

312 312 12
dud udu du

If you do it the Jessie way:

312 312 12
duu duu du

You get a bit more of a synchopated feel. Hope this helps.
Tony

[howbahmando]

<...>

howbahmando, I don't think that expanding a definition a little is going to make it meaningless. Open up a dictionary and begin to count the number of words that have 2,3 and 4 definitions and some have more than 14. And there are plenty words that have multiple meanings not even closely related. So I can't see the definition becoming meaningless.
Well, we're talking about a quite specific technique here though, the syncopated banjo-y mandolin style that my (very distant) cousin Jesse developed. If somebody says he does a lot of "crosspicking", when his style & technique are entirely different - what's the point of calling it crosspicking? It would just make more sense to call it "Thile-style picking", (or whatever) if that's what he actually does.

Not saying there's only one "correct" way to pick, or anything like that, just arguing for "truth in plectrological terminology".

[Kid Charlemagne]

You could always try working on a tune that involves crosspicking to some extent, and see how it comes out for you.

I'm thinking particularly of Chris Thile's Raining at Sunset, alternating between the open E string and the melody on the lower strings. It's not terribly tough to figure out enough to play it a little bit, and my crosspicking actually improved after learning to handle that portion of the tune at speed.

Of course, this all assumes that I'm correct in my expectation that the technique he uses in that song is, in fact, crosspicking.

[Dfyngravity]

I am not sure, I will have to check the DVD out again, but I think he just used alternating pick strokes on that song.

[jmcgann]

I propose "string crossing" for alternate picking and "crosspicking" for crosspicking. Just to have two different terms to two different sounds.

[mandocrucian]

Maybe it is just semantics, but in my mind, alternate picking across the strings is not crosspicking, because alternate picking yields a totally different articulation. It's easier for me to think "crosspicking" when grouping notes in 3's with that ddu or duu style. It is about SOUND.

Articulation is the important element. How the notes are connected is as important as the pitches. #With the pick glides (down-down, or up-up), you get slurring of notes on different strings analagous to hammer-ons or pull-offs on the same string.

Just go to any of the classical violin etude books - Kayser, Mazas, Rovelli, Kreutzer, Sevcik etc. and there are lots of bow-across-the-strings pieces which can be adapted to pick-gliding etudes. #It's all about the internal rhythmic flow.

Myself, I prefer the sound/attack of pick+finger(s) over pick alone. I also use a lot of hammer/pull-off/slide slurrings instead of of every-note-with-the-pick, because the music breathes more (imo).

Niles H

[Peter Hackman]

I propose "string crossing" for alternate picking and "crosspicking" for crosspicking. Just to have two different terms to two different sounds.
I believe that's the term used in Jethro's book.

Some of his exercises, by the way, look like Keith-
style banjo, with the highest note in a group on the lowest string.