Weber vs. Phoneix

[Kevin Briggs]

How does a Phoneix Bluegrass model match up with a Maple Bitteroot with Tone bars and trad. bridge?

[Thomas]

I can't imagine the Weber, as good as they are, being on a par with the Phoenix. Depends on what style of music you play and if you want a scroll. For pure bluegrass heaven, go with Phoenix, IMHO.

[red7flag]

To add to that, The Pheonix Bluegrass is a 7k insturment while the Bitterroot is about 2.5k. Not a fair comparison. They are apples and oranges. Strangely, the Pheonix I played, had a fairly similar sound quality to my Bitterroot. The fit and finish are far superior and the tone a bit clearer and bell like. But after putting a Cumberland Accoustics bridge on my Bitterroot, the differences lessened quite a bit. Hope this helps a bit.
Tony

[RichM]

To add to that, The Pheonix Bluegrass is a 7k insturment while the Bitterroot is about 2.5k. #Not a fair comparison.
Actually, the Phoenix Bluegrass is $3600 new, or thereabouts. Phoenix mandolins are true bargains.

[otterly2k]

I'd have to pick the Phoenix. I'm not a grasser, but I find the Phoenixes (phoenices?) to be among the best and most consistent of any I've tried. IMHO, Webers are fine instruments, but kind of clunky with thickish necks and plates...very sturdy, where the Phoenix is a bit more delicate. The are SO responsive... I think they are a better value.

[mrt10x]

Concur with the above, although the bluegrass is a 4k instrument, and the MM is the 7k version, and a Bitteroot with a maple upgrade would be 2900, all numbers being suggested retail not the price you may actually pay. If you want to compare apples to apples look at a cedar topped bighorn, even then you would still be cheaper than the bluegrass model. I have only played one Phoenix for a short while and it was a neobluegrass, but the cedar topped bighorns that I played at Weber this summer were in my mind significantly better sounding and nicer looking. Check for other posts around the forum, the cedar top Webers will hold their own for that bluegrass sound you are looking for.

[red7flag]

I stand corrected the one I was looking at was the MM model, which is 7k.
Tony

[sgarrity]

Look at a Weber with a cedar top and tone bars. I wasn't a Weber fan at all until I played one of these. The volume and tone is just amazing. I don't believe you can get a better instrument for the money.

[Kevin Briggs]

I like the sound of my Maple Bitteroot. With th radiused fingerboard, traditional bridge, and some other appointments, mine retails $3,600. The big upgrades had to do with cosmetics, so sound was not really affected. It's a thick sounding mandolin, and it has nice round notes with J75s.

My only gripe is that rough action oterly described. I sometimes have a hard time getting the sweet spots of the notes, and I practice hard and slowly. I remember my Breedlove Spirit played wayyy easier than the Bitteroot, but it didn't have as good of a tone.

It was a long "Folk of the Wood" road to get that sucker, and it means a lot to me.

[J. Mark Lane]

A Phoenix Bluegrass is a *vastly* superior instrument to a Weber. And imo, that would apply to just about any Weber, including the Fern, Bighorn, etc. (and yes, I have played them all, and have played them in the same room and within the same hour as several Phoenix Bluegrass models).

I agree with the others who have said that the Phoenix mandolins represent one of the best deals on the market today, period. I was about ready to buy one when I came upon my Stanley, and would still like to have one.

Hmmm. Mandolin Brothers has a used Phoenix Bluegrass for $2850.....

[J. Mark Lane]

Hey rather,

You're in Lancaster? #Jeez, what is that, 2 1/2 hours to Mandolin Brothers. #Get yer butt in the car and drive there, and take the Weber. #Call first and make sure Stan is around. #I bet he'd give you a good trade. #But most importantly, you could sit there in that amazing room full of mandolins and play Phoenix's, Webers, Collings's, Gibs...oh, uh, never mind on that...uh, and lots of other mandolins! #Just do it!

[Kevin Briggs]

Oh snap! I didn't know that's where the heck it was. Well, Staten Island is a little longer tna 2 and a half hours. It's 3 to Manhattan, but the point is well taken. The closer one is in Philly. I think it's called http://www.vintage-instruments.com/

[Nick Triesch]

The Phoenix mandolins have two problems for me: No adjustable truss rod and you have to open up the case and look at it every day! Remember the Martin argument of years ago? The care and feeding book said that Martin guitars did not need a truss rod in the first place because the necks never warp or bow. Now we all know that just was not true. And later on Martin changed over to a adjustable truss rod. Nick

[J. Mark Lane]

This has come up before. There are many many builders who do not use truss rods. Rolfe Gerhardt has, I believe, addressed this. A mandolin is not a guitar. I have had several mandolins without truss rods, and never had a problem. Can you identify anyone who has ever had a neck problem with a Phoenix?

[Avi Ziv]

I made the same mistake in judgment years ago, turning down an amazing-sounding Old Wave mandolin because it had no adjustable truss rod. I would not make the same mistake again

Avi

[Nick Triesch]

A mandolin is not a guitar but it sure works like one. A mandolin neck will still move in both directions. It can either warp or bow. It is just my preference to be able to correct my mandolin if it needs it over time. Just mho . The best mandolins in the world use it for a reason. As for neck problems with a Phoenix? There are too few of them for me to say. Check them out in 20 years . Many an old Martin has a warped neck! Nick

[Kevin Briggs]

I thought there was a graphite truss rod in Phoneix mandolins.

[Kevin Briggs]

Hey, anyway. 20 years is pretty good mileage for a great sounding mandolin. You can't tell me a good Gibson hasn't needed a new neck or something in 20 years. If I get 20 years out of my mandolin, and it sounds kick butt the whole way, then I need to spend a grand or two to get it fixed up a little, that's not so bad.

[J. Mark Lane]

I thought there was a graphite truss rod in Phoneix mandolins.
Yes, that is correct.

http://www.phoenixmandolins.com/construction.htm

This is a bogus issue. There are some people out there who, for whatever reason, think that an adjustable truss rod is a necessary feature of a mandolin. There are lots who do not. There are also lots of builders who install them, not because they think they are necessary, but because they realize that some members of the buying public think they are necessary. Whatever. Everybody is entitle to their opinion, informed or otherwise.

And you will get far more than 20 years out of a Phoenix mandolin, I am very confident. (Not that anyone will care what I think, but what the heck.)

[Nick Triesch]

Give me a break! Like I said, the best mandolins in the world use an adjustable truss rod. And I hear some of those mandolins can last up to say...80+ years! Nick

[Nick Triesch]

Maybe a bogus issue to you! But I really doubt that builders like Nugget, Collings, Apitius, Wiens, Gilchrist, Randy Wood, Brentrup would install adjustable truss rods just to please the buying public. After you have been around Guitars and mandolins for a few years you will see that they are a very good thing indeed. Nick

[J. Mark Lane]

I'll keep that in mind, Nick. Afer I've been around guitars and mandolins for a few years.....

[otterly2k]

rather...
Vintage Instruments in Philly specializes in just that... vintage instruments. You are likely to find many beautiful old Gibsons and Martins and some others... but they do not have the selection of new instruments that Mandolin Brothers carries. If you have the time, it is WELL worth the trip.

[Kevin Briggs]

Thanks Oterly, I'll make it a point to stop in at some point. I get up to Manhattan area once a year or so. I hope to be able to make a trip someday, just for the hell of it, and a Mando Bros. stop will be on the agenda. Work and baby and stuff kind of keeping me settled right now.

[evanreilly]

I have an early model, really a prototype (#164) of the Pheonix Bluegrass mandolin. It is approaching ten years old and the neck is as perfect as the day it left Rolfe's shop in Richmond. It does not need a truss-rod. The instrument still plays better (intonation and action) than most others, truss-rods or not.

[J. Mark Lane]

I played Evan's Phoenix one night for a couple of hours, and that is one *sweeet* mandolin. Beautiful tone, very bluegrassy sounding, and it playes like butter. I would say the Phoenix's age very nicely.

[Ted Eschliman]

I'm amazed the issue of "non-adjustable" neck is still such a buying barrier for some individuals, but Nick is certainly not alone. However, let's put this in perspective; Rolfe has been doing this since his days with Unicorn in the 70's, longer than many of today's smaller boutique builders.
He has the benefit of 3-1/2 decades of hands-on experience, including the "baggage" of facing minimal (at best) neck warranty in his creations. Proof in the putting.
I'm looking forward to "growing old" with my Phoenix; I'm expecting it's neck to be a heckuva lot straighter than mine in 80 years...

[Greenmando]

Give me a break! # Like I said, #the best mandolins in the world use an adjustable truss rod. #And I hear some of those mandolins can last up to say...80+ years! # Nick
Those old Gibson F2 and f4's are doing great after all these years.

[Duc Vu]

@b@y 7379162894: Phoenix Bluegrass for under $2500. Somebody get it before I succumb to MAS relapse!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[PatrickH]

Getting back to the original discussion, Phoenix makes a truely awesome instrument (I own the Neoclassical and have played many Bluegrass and NeoBluegrass models). All were outstanding.

At $3500 - $4000, you are also in Collings MF territory so while you are at Mando brothers, try a few of them as well.

IMOHO, Collings and Pheonix are on par but Collings is more traditional in appearance but not necessarily sound. To me, the Collings MF and Phoenix BG and NeoBG represent the absolute best values in that price range.

[Nick Triesch]

I'm sure that Phoneix mandolins are very nice instruments. I just found that over the years I can really dial in my guitars and mandolins with the help of an adjustable truss rod. I think the very top builders use them for a good reason. Maybe a phoneix mandolin will never go our of whack. But that's what Martin said over and over again. Just check out how many of the top Guitar builders use an adjustable truss rod. I like it there just in case I need it someday. IMHO please. NIck

[man doh]

hey mandocat, that Weber has a bolt on neck too, just in case you can't get enough dailing in out of the trussrod. but that is another topic.

[evanreilly]

Here is a short video of me playing my Phoenix Custom Bluegrass Master Model #301): Linda Lou (http://world.std.com/~ereilly/lindalou.avi)

[J. Mark Lane]

What happened to your head?