flying fingers?

[hedding]

My question is I read a lot about people saying you should keep all you fingers down as long as possible before moving them to the next note. When i try to do this it seems really difficult, whats the advantages to this? When it does get easier to do it does it improve playing or is it just a waste of time?

thanks

[Dfyngravity]

I am a definitely believer of keeping your fingers down. But as you can imagine it onlt works for ascending.

Reasons why to do so:
1. It keeps all of your finergers close to the strings which is a time saver.
2. Sometimes you come back to a note you just played, so if what you are playing allows you to keep your finger there then do so. Again it's more effiencent.
3. It make shifting postions easier.

But over all it just keeps your fingers more readily available for faster and smoother playing. Now when you start playing super fast you will definitely see some fingers flying, even with pros. But at tremedously fast speeds that is something just tends to happen.

My first mandolin teacher was also a classical guitar teacher. When playing classical guitar he highly stressed keeping your fingers down. I know when playing classical guitar there are a lot of times when playing chord forms that one of your fingers will stay on the same string when going to the next chord form. This is called a pivot finger and by keeping it down it allows you to get to the next chord form easier. And in classical guitar that is absolutely crucial because of the difficulty of a lot of the peices. But that is for guitar. However, he stressed keeping my fingers down on mandolin too. If you watch a classically trained violinst you will see them do the same thing.

[jmcgann]

McGann's Technique Tips (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html)

The why is this- say you play on your A string frets 2, 4 and 5. If you leave each finger down as you go, you have made three movements. If you lift, it is five movements.

Do you think it is better to do more work for no sound gain?

Do you think it might add to a smooth sound if you leave each note ringing until the next finger goes down (rather than what happens if you lift too soon)?

Yes, it gets easier and automatic with time. I played with flying fingers for the first, oh, 13 years of my playing. It was rough sledding to switch, but if I didn't, I would still be stuck in a dead end zone (some would call it the Tone Free Zone)!

Some stuff is hard earned, but if you are thoughtful about what's happening, you can find ways to sound great without tons of effort. It's just muscle memory and habits-you have to develop the right ones. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[dochardee]

John, I enjoyed reading your technique tips. Your link to the Tuck Andress pages is interesting. Tuck seems to think highly of the "George Benson" style right hand pick technique, but the explanation is incomprehensible. Do you think Benson's right hand technique would translate well to mandolin, and if so, can you explain it or suggest a video that shows his technique clearly?

[jmcgann]

No, I think tone production on an electric instrument is a different animal. George has killer chops, but I don't think that exact style of "circular picking" would draw the maximum tone from an acoustic mando. A single string jazz guitar is just a real different beast than a double strung mando, and the fact is that with electric, you are also playing the amp as much as the guitar.

Roy Buchanan evidently used that circle picking idea too...

I read somewhere George was playing some steel guitar...

[John Zimm]

he why is this- say you play on your A string frets 2, 4 and 5. If you leave each finger down as you go, you have made three movements. If you lift, it is five movements.
I play classical guitar in addition to mando, and while going throuhg the Julio Sagreras method Maertro Sagreras stresses multiple times that even on decending patterns the left hand fingers should be in place. So, if we are playing frets 5,4 and 2 on the A string, frets 2 and 4 should be held down when 5 is played. Have you tried this? I am getting the hang of this on guitar, but on mando it seems to be coming more slowly. Any benefits to this technique? Just curious.

-John.

[Dfyngravity]

John, I do that on mandolin as well. My friend is a classical guitar major and he took lessons from the teacher I mentioned before. We would go to him at the same time so when he was teaching him classical guitar I would pay close attention because a lot of the things made sense on mandolin too. And one of them was getting your fingers in position while descending. Thanks for bring that up, I forgot to mention that one.

There are lots of times when doing that really helps smooth out a peice. I was playing a Vivaldi peice back when I was going to this teacher and there was a couple passages where I wasn't getting the right timing, sound, and tone. So he watching me play the passage and then commented that I should get my fingers in place and ready. So I tried it and it all came together.

Learning little tricks like that can really improve your playing. I have noticed that you don't really gain a whole lot of speed, but to other people it will sound like you have. Reason being is that if you can get a smoother more fluid sound it will sound effortless. And to people listening they see fluidness/effortless as being able to play fast. Take Chris Thile, Adam Steffey, or Shawn Lane and listen to their playing. They do play rather fast, but it sounds a whole lot faster than they really are playing.

[groveland]

My take on the Benson picking style (re: dochardee) -

Rest the right hand below the strings, point the locked thumb and forefinger upward over the strings from below. #Additionally, the RIGHT edge of the pick hits the strings on the downstroke, and the LEFT edge on the upstroke (reverse of what some of us are used to). #Downstrokes go in toward the instrument, upstrokes go out. Finally, on the downstroke, use a 'rest stroke' for accuracy - That is, kindof aim your rh index finger at the second string when you are actually looking to pick the third string; the second string provides a landing place for the pick after the third string is picked. #Once resting on the second string, the upstroke is a simple flick of the wrist outward.

I tried this on mando. I think it has possibilities for those who would put the time in to make it work. #Personally, my patience ran out after a few minutes. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[John Zimm]

Learning little tricks like that can really improve your playing. I have noticed that you don't really gain a whole lot of speed, but to other people it will sound like you have. Reason being is that if you can get a smoother more fluid sound it will sound effortless. And to people listening they see fluidness/effortless as being able to play fast. Take Chris Thile, Adam Steffey, or Shawn Lane and listen to their playing. They do play rather fast, but it sounds a whole lot faster than they really are playing.
I'll have to give this a whirl again. On the guitar, learning this skill came with no small amount of frustration and cursing, but it has really helped.

I think you are right about Thile and the others-their playing is so smooth tht it probably does sound faster than it actually is. Not to say they can't play fast too... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-John.

[groveland]

I am a definitely believer of keeping your fingers down. But as you can imagine it onlt works for ascending.

Descending, you don't keep the already-played fingers on the string, but they should be hovering right there over the string, or already on their way to the next thing...


Julio Sagreras method Maertro Sagreras stresses multiple times that even on decending patterns the left hand fingers should be in place.

The 'fingers in place, ascending and descending' is great advice in general. If playing a rehearsed piece it's absolutely something to strive for - No flying fingers. Your next move is known. Be prepared to do what's next.

But what about improvising solos where you don't really know what you're going to do from moment to moment? Improvisers have patterns, too, and those patterns break down into tiny pre-rehearsed pieces, rehearsed over the career of the player, reconfigured for each solo. And where there are predictable pieces, you can prepare the fingers ahead of time.

http://www.grovelandsoftwarelabs.com/images/NoFlyingFingers_sm.jpg